Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 krypta4 Dec 11, 2009 16:27:13	I want this to be optimized for play between 6th and 10th level. I also don't want to use anything rediculous (like grafting arms). No psionics. Fractional Bab. I have access to most CO books, but none of the races of ... books. 1: Rogue | sneak attack +1d6 | Improved Initiative 2: Fighter (UA sneak attach/thug variants) | sneak attack +2d6 3: Spellthief | sneak attack +3d6 | Martial Study (Island of Blades) 4: Rogue | 5: Rogue | sneak attack +4d6 6: Assassin | sneak attack +5d6 | Skill Focus (Gather Information) 7: Ranger | 8: Nightsong Enforcer | sneak attack +6d6 9: Justicar | non-lethal sneak attack +7d6 10: ? Because of multiclassing restrictions, my race will have to be halfing, human, or half-elf. Halfing is always a good sneak attack class. On the other hand, taking human for a two weapon fighting feat is also very good. Please give me feedback and suggestions.
#2 Chosenofragnarok Dec 11, 2009 23:35:20	well i would sugest checking out this thread for one: www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t... To repost from there: So Just a thought for highest SA dmg, just using base classes... can't think of any prc's atm. Not in this order: Rogue 1/spellthief1/ninja 2(just for the greater invis)/scout 3/SA Fighter 1/ barbarian 1 Whirlwind rage thing and lion totem/ SS 1/assasin 1 Human feats 1. twf b. Telling blow 3.craven 6.swift ambusher 9. Improved skirmish so that's 7d6 SA and i belive 5d6 skirmish. Bab is +5 at 10th... You can also pounce. I would make sure Tumble is maxed out... 12 level i would take travel devotion... i would grab a level in wizard or sorc if assasin doesn't qualify you then go unseen seer maybe or some other rogue prc... not the most optimised but it does do alot of d6's Also a rogues vest from MIC will increase that by 1d6 as well. Pick up eaither two keen kukiris for more telling blow... Most optimal attack is to activate the ninjas invis then charge. due to pounce you would get both your attacks at +5/+5  which is awsome then  also assuming you crit your dmg would be amazing... two crits with your weapons would be doing 28d6 +20d6 skirmish+40 from craven average of 184 i belive not bad for level ten. though i know that would be rare.  i know its a bit of a one trick pony but you would have a ton of skills as well and if you get the right equpment and or get your attack up with other items/ what not you should be pritty good.
#3 krypta4 Dec 12, 2009 13:30:25	where is swift hunter from? Also, sudden strike is not as good. I don't see how the build consistently gets in the sudden strikes. Or even gets sneak attack for that matter. Additionally, I don't see how the build consistently gets 20ft of movement for skirmish. If I remember correctly, a pounce requires straight-line movement, so you can't tumble all the way around an opponent and still get a full attack. And even then, you put yourself at risk for AoO's even with a good tumble skill.
#4 Chosenofragnarok Dec 12, 2009 14:47:14	Swift hunter is from complete scoundrel two ways of consitantly getting SA's via eaither a critting alot via high crit weapons due to telling blow will give you both your skirmish and our SA onto it. You also can proc your SA from flanking... Also have the ninja swift invis ability. which makes you invis untill your next round grate for jumping between targets. People realy under estimate the ninjas invis ability. even a two level dip can make a rogue build alot stronger. there's also your standered hide and move silently. If you want more ways to get all of it. then i would drop improved skirmish for travel devotion. As you can move 30ft as a swift action then make a full attack. though to be honest telling blow will be nice... Grab your self two keen kukiris you you will be set. str>wis>dex>con>int>cha currently your build only had one way to proc a SA which was flanking or flatfooted. Honestly, if you ignore the Skirmish part of the build and only use it when you crit its still a great build. I belive you can even rage and SA which is just more rediculousness. Granted it is just once per day. Ultimatly it is your character so do what you want. just as of right now your current build is not optimised for SA you have no consistant way of getting it(or atleast less then mine) and your feat selection isn't the greatest for it.
#5 krypta4 Dec 12, 2009 16:03:52	So telling blow with keen on each kukri will get me sneak attacks less than a third of my hits. That's pretty good, although those kukri's will start to get expensive if I want to put other enhancements on them. But I think your damage calculations are off. It seems like you misread telling blow: it does not multiply your sneak attack damage, it simply lets you use sneak attack in the first place. The invisibility from ninja can be used only when unarmored, which is not good for a melee character with an average of d6 hit points. Also, it can only be used a number of times per day equal to half-ninja level + wisdom bonus. That makes it sort of limiting (I don't know what swift ambusher does, is that giving you more ki uses?). My build uses island of blades which gives you flanking anytime you are adjacent to an ally and an enemy. That should reliably give me sneak attacks. I just thought of something. What if I use a quarterstaff as my two-weapon fighting weapon and give it 50 charges of the distract assailant spell (CAdv) which makes a creature distracted for one round (the spell is on the assassin spell list). That costs 450 gp. Does this work? Quarterstaff with distract assailant? It still only takes a swift action to cast right?
#6 Chosenofragnarok Dec 12, 2009 19:52:42	So telling blow with keen on each kukri will get me sneak attacks less than a third of my hits. That's pretty good, although those kukri's will start to get expensive if I want to put other enhancements on them. But I think your damage calculations are off. It seems like you misread telling blow: it does not multiply your sneak attack damage, it simply lets you use sneak attack in the first place. It does if you already qualify for sneak attack... so if you are flanking and you crit you can apply your SA twice onces for the normal hit then again for the crit from telling blow.. Also telling blow is SA, Sudden strike and skirmish as well The invisibility from ninja can be used only when unarmored, which is not good for a melee character with an average of d6 hit points. Also, it can only be used a number of times per day equal to half-ninja level + wisdom bonus. That makes it sort of limiting (I don't know what swift ambusher does, is that giving you more ki uses?). Bugger i didn't see the unarmourd thing. that puts a slight damper but wisdom should be your secound higest score so you should have lots. of uses... Swift ambusher allows your SA classes to stack with Scout for the purposes of skirmish. My build uses island of blades which gives you flanking anytime you are adjacent to an ally and an enemy. That should reliably give me sneak attacks. Honestly i wouldn't waste the feats on it. Simply becuase tumble should let you get to a flanking position no problem.. remember its a dc 25 tumble to go through some ones square. I just thought of something. What if I use a quarterstaff as my two-weapon fighting weapon and give it 50 charges of the distract assailant spell (CAdv) which makes a creature distracted for one round (the spell is on the assassin spell list). That costs 450 gp. Does this work? Quarterstaff with distract assailant? It still only takes a swift action to cast right? How are you using the staff? You don't have any caster levels. UMD doesn't work on staves.. unfortunatly. so no this doesn't work
#7 elthenar Dec 12, 2009 21:46:38	Or, get your UMD check high enough to reliably use a wand of Grease. Hit their shoes with it and anyone who doesn't have 5 ranks in balance is considered flatfooted. Then sneak attack away until your grubby black little heart is content.
#8 krypta4 Dec 12, 2009 21:55:07	I guess we disagree about what telling blow does then. Also, distract assailant is on the assassin spell list which both my and your build include. It seems like getting a couple extra levels of assassin for invisibility, swift (the spell) would be better than ninja due to the unarmored restriction. What do you think? At level 6, my tumble will be between 9-11 depending on how high dexterity is. Hitting a dc of 25 is a less than fifty percent chance. At level 9, the situation does not look much better. Even tumbling around opponents (let's say there are two opponenents) puts that dc at 17, giving me approximately a 30% chance of failure at level 6 and approximately a 15% chance of failure at level 9.
#9 Chosenofragnarok Dec 13, 2009 0:15:19	I guess we disagree about what telling blow does then. I know it was clerifyed in the FAQ i want to say... Also, distract assailant is on the assassin spell list which both my and your build include. It seems like getting a couple extra levels of assassin for invisibility, swift (the spell) would be better than ninja due to the unarmored restriction. What do you think? Ya that changes things... totaly forgot about assins casting. At level 6, my tumble will be between 9-11 depending on how high dexterity is. Hitting a dc of 25 is a less than fifty percent chance. At level 9, the situation does not look much better. Even tumbling around opponents (let's say there are two opponenents) puts that dc at 17, giving me approximately a 30% chance of failure at level 6 and approximately a 15% chance of failure at level 9. I guess i will have to agree to disagree.. Id rather spend the feats on other things.
#10 krypta4 Dec 13, 2009 0:53:29	I just checked. Page 45 of the main 3.5 FAQ says: "If a character with the Telling Blow feat (PH2 83) scores a critical hit against an enemy in a situation where his skirmish or sneak attack damage would already apply, does he get to add that damage twice? No. You only get to add your skirmish or sneak attack damage once, even if you meet more than one prerequisite for adding it. (For example, a rogue who flanks a flat-footed enemy doesn’t get to add sneak attack damage twice.)"
#11 Chosenofragnarok Dec 13, 2009 1:06:53	never mind then. I stand corrected.
#12 felgoroth Dec 14, 2009 13:45:48	Rogue 3 (or 4 for Uncanny Dodge)/Beguiler (at least 2 levels)/Unseen Seer 10.  Play whatever race you want just make sure your Intelligence is pretty high for spells.  When you take your 2nd level of Unseen Seer take Hunter's Eye from the PHB2 (page 114-115 I think) for your Advanced Learning spell, it's a Ranger Spell, that gives you +1d6 sneak attack/3 levels.  You already have at least 2d6 from the Rogue and you also get 4d6 total from the Unseen Seer.  If you're taking Martial Stance and getting Assassin's Stance (I'm not sure if you did this or just took Martial Study) that's another 2d6.  At 10th level as Rogue 3/Beguiler 2/Unseen Seer 5 you're doing +7d6 Sneak Attack, if you have Assassin's Stance you're sitting on 9d6 that's as much as a 17th level Rogue.
#13 daedhaed Dec 14, 2009 14:28:15	Grab the stance fro ToB that gives 2d6 sneak attack
#14 felgoroth Dec 14, 2009 14:58:46	That would be Assassin's Stance which I think I mentioned twice
#15 death_isthe_begining Dec 14, 2009 16:41:06	Don't forget a Deadly Precision weapon, for at least another d6 of damage.
#16 snakeman830 Dec 18, 2009 15:06:13	Don't forget a Deadly Precision weapon, for at least another d6 of damage. Or Assassination, which is the same price and gives you extra bonuses for poisoning that weapon in addition to +1d6 sneak attack.
#17 tigereye504 Dec 20, 2009 21:52:57	why not get a weapon with both effects? that would give 2d6 sneak + extra posion effect.
#18 PlzBreakMyCampaign Dec 21, 2009 14:04:53	Everyone is saying that it needs more cowbell sneak attack.
#19 snakeman830 Dec 21, 2009 14:24:48	Can't believe nobody else caught this. Island of Blades is a stance, which means you can't select it with Martial Study.  The minimum you can grab it with is 2 feats or 1 level in Swordsage.  2 levels of Swordsage can net you Assassin's Stance for the 2d6 sneak attack, so long as the second level is later on.