Critique my Sword Knight - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Critique my Sword Knight

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
steelwind
Feb 07, 2009 17:51:16 Ok, so we have a 3.5 dragonlance game coming up and I've decided to play one of those damn knights of solamnia. For those who care we are playing in the age of dragons alternate timeline where Takhisis never stole the world. All books are available except for other campaign setting material(no FR or EB, ect).

So the build Im going with is Lawful Good Human Cleric 4 of Kiri Jolith/Ordained Champion 5/Knight of the Sword 10/XXX1(anything with a caster level really). We are using the revised knights of solamnia PrCs found in the Knightly Orders of Ansalon book and I will be taking the Sword Knight clerist substitution levels. I will end up with 17 levels of cleric spellcasting at 20th level (CL 20 with Practiced Spellcaster) and a BAB of +18 (not that it really matters with Divine Power).

1Clr1 (Strength and War domains) Honor-Bound, Endurance, Weapon Focus(longsword)
2Clr2
3Clr3 Extend Spell
4Clr4
5OrC1 (Good Domain) Power Attack(from giving up the good domain ability)
6OrC2 Diehard, Persistent Spell
7OrC3
8OrC4
9OrC5 Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell)
10KoS1
11KoS2
12KoS3 Practiced Spellcaster(cleric)
13KoS4
14KoS5
15KoS6 Holy Warrior
16KoS7
17KoS8
18KoS9 Extra Turning
19KoS10
20XXX1(Maybe Cleric5 or Comtemplative1, doesnt really matter although Kiri Jolith only has one more domain and thats the law domain which is meh)

So thats my vision for the character, let me know what you guys think. I was thinking of giving up the Strenth domain power for another fighter feat maybe. I was originaly going to incorparate Divine Might in there too but I think I'll be burning enough turning attempts just using DMM and I wouldnt end up taking it before 18th level, due to the fact that past 1st level(which are all prereqs) there are no feats I would want to push back.
#2
erhnamdj
Feb 08, 2009 9:23:12 So, at cleric 17, you'll have what level spells? If the answer is not 'ninth,' you're doing it wrong.
#3
steelwind
Feb 08, 2009 9:52:10 Uh yeah, at 20th level I will have 17 levels of cleric spellcasting, which equates to 9th level spells, with a caster level of 20. I lose 2 caster levels from Ordained Champion and 1 from Knight of the Sword.
#4
empirate
Feb 08, 2009 16:31:19 Although playing a Knight of Solamnia myself atm, I'm not in a position to really critique your build, as I'm not familiar with Knightly Orders of Ansalon. However, I can't imagine that even in KOoA, you'd qualify for Knight of the Sword without ever being a member of the Order of the Crown! That's so traditional I can't imagine anybody would ever be allowed to skip it.

My current build involves a lot of prereq-meeting, thus feats and skillpoints are largely tied up: Cleric2/Fighter2/Knight of the Crown1/Ordained Champion2/Knight of the Sword3/Knight of the Rose10. Maybe I'll work in a level of Exotic Weapon Master somewhere, and/or another level of Ordained Champion, for a level or two of Knight of the Rose... never was in it for the spellcasting, though.

I'm only using good old Dragonlance Campaign Setting, of course. In DCS, the best you can do is get into Knight of the Rose ASAP, to get that awesome full BAB+full casting+extras. Knights of the Sword are actually kind of weak in comparison (hardly different from Clerics, plus a bit of smiting).

So tell me, what' Knightly Orders of Ansalon like? Worth trying to find it on ebay?
#5
erhnamdj
Feb 08, 2009 18:08:43 My point was that at any level you are, you would rather have the spellcasting a straight cleric would have than what you get from losing caster levels. Maybe you could make a case if you were starting at level twenty, but....
#6
Blade2718
Feb 08, 2009 20:26:08
My point was that at any level you are, you would rather have the spellcasting a straight cleric would have than what you get from losing caster levels. Maybe you could make a case if you were starting at level twenty, but....

For a melee Cleric, the benefits of Ordained Champion are worth it. Spontaneous quickened War spells? Yes please. Even their smite is worth it since it's Wis based damage and Cleric + OC level based to-hit. Converting domain powers into feats is good too.

That said, IIRC, Sword Clerists lose some original spellcasting and gain a watered down spellcasting instead, so the sub levels are not worth it, in my opinion.
#7
steelwind
Feb 09, 2009 15:10:30 All 3 of the Knights of Solamnia PrCs were revised in KOoA. The spellcasting requirements were removed for the Sword and Rose knights, and neither of those classes provides spellcasting advancement. Now instead if you want cleric spellcasting then you must take the Clerist substitution levels for the Sword knight PrC at levels 1, 4, and 8. If you already have cleric levels each sub level gives you up to 3 levels of caster advancement, for a total of 9/10 increase over all 10 levels. They beefed up the Sword knight some with a couple extra abilities and it now gives full BAB and d10 HD. The Rose knight gives no caster increases at all but is otherwise unchanged. Its even possible to be a Fighter/Sword Knight that doesnt cast spells (if you didnt take the substitution levels). They said they did this because it more closely reflected how the Knights are protrayed in all the various novels (i.e. Rose knights dont cast spells, only Sword knights of the order of the clerist)

Empirate, to answer your question, you dont have to to take the Crown knight PrC to become a Sword Knight anymore, you are still required to be a member of the Order of the Crown before you join the Order of the Sword, but you dont actually have to take the PrC if you dont want to, same goes for Sword knight to Rose Knight. And KOoA is a pretty good book, it details in full the 3 major knight orginizations (Solamnic Knights, Dark Knights, and the Legion of Steel), theres some decent crunchy stuff in there too.

Oh and ErhnamDJ, the benifits of the Ordained Champion PrC far outweight the loss of 2 caster levels it brings.
#8
empirate
Feb 09, 2009 18:57:58 Thanks for clarifying! Sorry I couldn't be of any help to your build, though... After all this time, FINALLY somebody wants help with a Knight of Solamnia, and I'm stumped.

:surrender

Hope you have fun with this character!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 steelwind Feb 07, 2009 17:51:16	Ok, so we have a 3.5 dragonlance game coming up and I've decided to play one of those damn knights of solamnia. For those who care we are playing in the age of dragons alternate timeline where Takhisis never stole the world. All books are available except for other campaign setting material(no FR or EB, ect). So the build Im going with is Lawful Good Human Cleric 4 of Kiri Jolith/Ordained Champion 5/Knight of the Sword 10/XXX1(anything with a caster level really). We are using the revised knights of solamnia PrCs found in the Knightly Orders of Ansalon book and I will be taking the Sword Knight clerist substitution levels. I will end up with 17 levels of cleric spellcasting at 20th level (CL 20 with Practiced Spellcaster) and a BAB of +18 (not that it really matters with Divine Power). 1Clr1 (Strength and War domains) Honor-Bound, Endurance, Weapon Focus(longsword) 2Clr2 3Clr3 Extend Spell 4Clr4 5OrC1 (Good Domain) Power Attack(from giving up the good domain ability) 6OrC2 Diehard, Persistent Spell 7OrC3 8OrC4 9OrC5 Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) 10KoS1 11KoS2 12KoS3 Practiced Spellcaster(cleric) 13KoS4 14KoS5 15KoS6 Holy Warrior 16KoS7 17KoS8 18KoS9 Extra Turning 19KoS10 20XXX1(Maybe Cleric5 or Comtemplative1, doesnt really matter although Kiri Jolith only has one more domain and thats the law domain which is meh) So thats my vision for the character, let me know what you guys think. I was thinking of giving up the Strenth domain power for another fighter feat maybe. I was originaly going to incorparate Divine Might in there too but I think I'll be burning enough turning attempts just using DMM and I wouldnt end up taking it before 18th level, due to the fact that past 1st level(which are all prereqs) there are no feats I would want to push back.
#2 erhnamdj Feb 08, 2009 9:23:12	So, at cleric 17, you'll have what level spells? If the answer is not 'ninth,' you're doing it wrong.
#3 steelwind Feb 08, 2009 9:52:10	Uh yeah, at 20th level I will have 17 levels of cleric spellcasting, which equates to 9th level spells, with a caster level of 20. I lose 2 caster levels from Ordained Champion and 1 from Knight of the Sword.
#4 empirate Feb 08, 2009 16:31:19	Although playing a Knight of Solamnia myself atm, I'm not in a position to really critique your build, as I'm not familiar with Knightly Orders of Ansalon. However, I can't imagine that even in KOoA, you'd qualify for Knight of the Sword without ever being a member of the Order of the Crown! That's so traditional I can't imagine anybody would ever be allowed to skip it. My current build involves a lot of prereq-meeting, thus feats and skillpoints are largely tied up: Cleric2/Fighter2/Knight of the Crown1/Ordained Champion2/Knight of the Sword3/Knight of the Rose10. Maybe I'll work in a level of Exotic Weapon Master somewhere, and/or another level of Ordained Champion, for a level or two of Knight of the Rose... never was in it for the spellcasting, though. I'm only using good old Dragonlance Campaign Setting, of course. In DCS, the best you can do is get into Knight of the Rose ASAP, to get that awesome full BAB+full casting+extras. Knights of the Sword are actually kind of weak in comparison (hardly different from Clerics, plus a bit of smiting). So tell me, what' Knightly Orders of Ansalon like? Worth trying to find it on ebay?
#5 erhnamdj Feb 08, 2009 18:08:43	My point was that at any level you are, you would rather have the spellcasting a straight cleric would have than what you get from losing caster levels. Maybe you could make a case if you were starting at level twenty, but....
#6 Blade2718 Feb 08, 2009 20:26:08	My point was that at any level you are, you would rather have the spellcasting a straight cleric would have than what you get from losing caster levels. Maybe you could make a case if you were starting at level twenty, but.... For a melee Cleric, the benefits of Ordained Champion are worth it. Spontaneous quickened War spells? Yes please. Even their smite is worth it since it's Wis based damage and Cleric + OC level based to-hit. Converting domain powers into feats is good too. That said, IIRC, Sword Clerists lose some original spellcasting and gain a watered down spellcasting instead, so the sub levels are not worth it, in my opinion.
#7 steelwind Feb 09, 2009 15:10:30	All 3 of the Knights of Solamnia PrCs were revised in KOoA. The spellcasting requirements were removed for the Sword and Rose knights, and neither of those classes provides spellcasting advancement. Now instead if you want cleric spellcasting then you must take the Clerist substitution levels for the Sword knight PrC at levels 1, 4, and 8. If you already have cleric levels each sub level gives you up to 3 levels of caster advancement, for a total of 9/10 increase over all 10 levels. They beefed up the Sword knight some with a couple extra abilities and it now gives full BAB and d10 HD. The Rose knight gives no caster increases at all but is otherwise unchanged. Its even possible to be a Fighter/Sword Knight that doesnt cast spells (if you didnt take the substitution levels). They said they did this because it more closely reflected how the Knights are protrayed in all the various novels (i.e. Rose knights dont cast spells, only Sword knights of the order of the clerist) Empirate, to answer your question, you dont have to to take the Crown knight PrC to become a Sword Knight anymore, you are still required to be a member of the Order of the Crown before you join the Order of the Sword, but you dont actually have to take the PrC if you dont want to, same goes for Sword knight to Rose Knight. And KOoA is a pretty good book, it details in full the 3 major knight orginizations (Solamnic Knights, Dark Knights, and the Legion of Steel), theres some decent crunchy stuff in there too. Oh and ErhnamDJ, the benifits of the Ordained Champion PrC far outweight the loss of 2 caster levels it brings.
#8 empirate Feb 09, 2009 18:57:58	Thanks for clarifying! Sorry I couldn't be of any help to your build, though... After all this time, FINALLY somebody wants help with a Knight of Solamnia, and I'm stumped. :surrender Hope you have fun with this character!