Critique my VoP Druid - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Critique my VoP Druid

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
linklord231
Nov 05, 2010 0:04:11 Hey all, I'm looking for some criticism for my planned druid build. I want him to be optimized enough that he can save my party (all relatively unoptimized, inexperienced players) from disaster but not so overpowered that he sucks the fun away.
Important notes:
DM houseruled that the sum of all attributes must be <= 75, with a max of 20 points in any one attribute (I'm not sure that he knows how potent this is).
Most books are acceptable (Core, PHBII, XPH, all Completes, and BoED are pre-approved, everything else must be run past DM first).
First four levels are set in stone, everything else is mutable.
The rest of the party is spellcasters and an extremely un-optimized monk, so I'd like to have an emphasis on wildshaping into fun things and summoning meat shields.

On to the build:

Human Druid 20
STR 8
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 20
Cha 10

Level 1:   Sacred Vow (human), Vow of Poverty (lvl 1)
Level 2:   Nymph's Kiss (exalted)
Level 3:   Spell Focus (conj) <-- required for Augment Summoning, else I wouldn't take it
Level 4:   Intuitive attack (exalted)
Level 6:   Natural Spell, Touch of Golden Ice (exalted)
Level 8:   Exalted Wild Shape (exalted)
Level 9:   Augment Summoning
Level 10: Sanctify Natural Attack (exalted)
Level 12: Greenbound Summoning (if allowed, else Rashemi Elemental Summoning, if allowed, else Extend Spell), Exalted Animal Companion (exalted)
Level 14: Gift of Faith (exalted)
Level 15: Summon Elemental [Reserve]
Level 16: Gift of Discernment (exalted)
Level 18: Dragon Wild Shape, Holy Radiance (exalted)
Level 20: Animal Friend (exalted)

All stat increased will go into Wisdom (the lvl 4 one has already been included, hence why the sum is 76 instead of 75). Vow of Poverty attribute boosts will go into Wis, Con, Int, and Cha in that order.

I'm also planning on adding in the Saint template (BoED) as soon as it becomes available. My animal companion is currently a Dire Bat (only because the DM declared "Dinosaurs don't exist in D&D", otherwise it would be a Fleshraker). I'm familiar with the "Handle Animal to give your animal companion the War Trained template for free" cheese, and managed to convince my DM that it should be legal . And finally, the DM interpreted Natural Bond to be able to offset the penalty for a stronger-than-average animal companion, so I'd like to take advantage of that (but I'm not sure where that would fit in to the build).

The campaign is going for a "planar" feel, so I'm probably going to take the Planar Druid sub levels from the Planar HB (or at least the 4th and 9th level ones, the 13th one sucks). Oh, and before you ask, Planar Shepherd is right out. The DM saw it and laughed, saying something along the lines of "That's the most broken thing I've ever seen".

So there it is. Any comments/criticisms would be welcome.
Thanks in advance!

#2
cru
Nov 05, 2010 5:03:27 I would recommend changing slightly your focus. Concentrate more on buffing / battlefield control to make other, weaker, non-optimized characters suck less.

Anyway. You're getting Augment Summoning rather late. Perhaps you should not bother with it and try to retrain your lvl 3 feat into e.g. Greenbound Summoning. This would free your lvl 9 feat slot (perhaps for Rashemi) and allow you to get Dragon Wildshape asap at 12.
#3
spiral_rider_h
Nov 05, 2010 21:22:33 Wild Shape is a pretty powerful class feature. I personally prefer to use the (albeit weaker but more fun in my opinion) shapeshift variant from PHB2. It seems to work beautifully with VoP, too. You'd lose your animal companion, too... but you can always take Wild Cohort (found here: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/200...)

If you go with shapeshift, I'd do this:

Human Druid (Shapeshift variant) 20
STR 12
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 20
Cha 8

For the VoP bonuses, go Wis>Dex>Con>Int. The shapeshifted forms will you give you an enhancement bonus to strength. I didn't take Saint into consideration because it's one of those "if you can get it, awesome. But I wouldn't plan around it."

Level 1:   Sacred Vow (human), Vow of Poverty
Level 2:   Nymph's Kiss (exalted)
Level 3:   Eschew Materials
Level 4:   Intuitive Attack (exalted)
Level 6:   Improved Natural Attack (bite), Touch of Golden Ice (exalted)
Level 8:   Sanctify Natural Attack (exalted)
Level 9:   Wild Cohort
Level 10: Favored of The Companions (exalted)
Level 12: Improved Natural Attack (slam), Gift of Faith (exalted)
Level 14: Nimbus of Light (exalted)
Level 15: Improved Initiative
Level 16:  Stigmata (exalted)
Level 18:  Quick Reconnoiter, Holy Radiance (exalted)
Level 20: Animal Friend (exalted)

Since it seems you're going to be the "big brother" for the other players, Stigmata could be useful for healing on the fly if necessary, and the initiative boosters put you in a good position to hold actions in case you need to heal an ally. Or turn into a fire elemental and pound the baddies into mush. Either way, it will be optimized without being a fun vacuum for the party.
#4
linklord231
Nov 08, 2010 1:12:24 Cru, unless I'm missing something, it seems like Druids do just fine being primary buffers even if they don't take feats like Extend/Persist/Chain Spell. I was planning on just memorizing a bunch of buff/battlefield control spells every day, then just Spontaneous SNA-ing as necessary. I'm definitely up to changing the build if that won't cut it though. You're right about Augment Summoning, though, it probably will be too late by level 9. I'll talk to my DM about retraining.

Spiral_rider, I took a look at the shapeshift variant when I first decided to be a druid, but was frankly underwhelmed. The forms are pretty much universally weaker, and the idea of a druid without an animal companion just seems... wrong, to me at least. And I'm not sure my DM would appreciate me re-imagining my character that dramatically (to retroactively give myself the shapeshifting ACF and to edit my animal companion out of my backstory).
I do like the ideas about the Improved Initiative and Improved Natural Attack line though.

Also, a couple quick questions.
1) Does Touch of Golden Ice qualify you for Venomfire (Serpent Kingdom)?
2) Is there any way to increase the DC for Touch of Golden Ice, or does it become nearly useless at higher levels?
And 3) On a more general note, am I missing something, or is Eschew Materials only useful in a grapple? If I recall correctly, a spell component pouch includes any material component that costs less than 1 gp - the same limitations on Eschew Materials.
#5
jandor1
Nov 09, 2010 8:42:23 eschew materials is really campaign dependent. If you guys track material components religiously, it could be useful for when you're grappled/taken prisoner/ambushed in an inn w/out having it in your hands/blah blah blah/if your DM doesn't let you keep it on a string around your neck when wildshaping ... but I think in most campaigns, and since divine casters usually only need a focus anyway (which for a druid is a piece of wood or a flower or some straw or what have you), it's a waste.

As for your other questions:
1) don't know, and I'm not sure there's a solid ruling ... might have to ask your DM. If someone else knows for sure, though, I'm curious as well.
2) In theory you could take Ability Focus for a +2 to the DC, but you're feat starved as it is so I'm thinking you treat it as a bonus on a failed save rather than something to optimize.

Other things:
Greenbound Summoning is SUPER GOOD. Like, broken good. I wouldn't take it if you're worried about overshadowing your fellow PCs, because one of your greenbound wolves (especially if you have augment as well) will probably be better than the monk. By probably I mean definitely.

From what I've heard, rashemi is also very good and is better at high levels (when elementals are worth summoning); so if you're looking for a level 15 feat or so that's a good option, and at that point the other spellcasters in the group will be super powerful anyway (if they're played with any degree of competence).

I'm with you on keeping wild shape; to much utility, beyond the simple power.

Shame about the fleshraker but honestly you're dangerous enough as it is :P

If you can swing a couple of flaws at this point, they're definitely worth it. Sounds like you're already locked in the first 4 levels, though, so that's probably not an option. If you CAN, use them to get augment summoning and natural bond, then proceed with:

6th: natural spell
9th: greenbound or rashemi or extend (although I'd be more partial to improved init; going first is critical)
12th: dragon wildshape
15th: ??
18th: ??

If you don't get flaws and want to be less super powered:

6th: natural
9th: augment summoning or imp init
12th: dragon wildshape or natural bond
15th: imp init if you took augment at 9th, otherwise open
18th: ??

Hope that helps!

-J

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 linklord231 Nov 05, 2010 0:04:11	Hey all, I'm looking for some criticism for my planned druid build. I want him to be optimized enough that he can save my party (all relatively unoptimized, inexperienced players) from disaster but not so overpowered that he sucks the fun away. Important notes: DM houseruled that the sum of all attributes must be <= 75, with a max of 20 points in any one attribute (I'm not sure that he knows how potent this is). Most books are acceptable (Core, PHBII, XPH, all Completes, and BoED are pre-approved, everything else must be run past DM first). First four levels are set in stone, everything else is mutable. The rest of the party is spellcasters and an extremely un-optimized monk, so I'd like to have an emphasis on wildshaping into fun things and summoning meat shields. On to the build: Human Druid 20 STR 8 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 20 Cha 10 Level 1: Sacred Vow (human), Vow of Poverty (lvl 1) Level 2: Nymph's Kiss (exalted) Level 3: Spell Focus (conj) <-- required for Augment Summoning, else I wouldn't take it Level 4: Intuitive attack (exalted) Level 6: Natural Spell, Touch of Golden Ice (exalted) Level 8: Exalted Wild Shape (exalted) Level 9: Augment Summoning Level 10: Sanctify Natural Attack (exalted) Level 12: Greenbound Summoning (if allowed, else Rashemi Elemental Summoning, if allowed, else Extend Spell), Exalted Animal Companion (exalted) Level 14: Gift of Faith (exalted) Level 15: Summon Elemental [Reserve] Level 16: Gift of Discernment (exalted) Level 18: Dragon Wild Shape, Holy Radiance (exalted) Level 20: Animal Friend (exalted) All stat increased will go into Wisdom (the lvl 4 one has already been included, hence why the sum is 76 instead of 75). Vow of Poverty attribute boosts will go into Wis, Con, Int, and Cha in that order. I'm also planning on adding in the Saint template (BoED) as soon as it becomes available. My animal companion is currently a Dire Bat (only because the DM declared "Dinosaurs don't exist in D&D", otherwise it would be a Fleshraker). I'm familiar with the "Handle Animal to give your animal companion the War Trained template for free" cheese, and managed to convince my DM that it should be legal . And finally, the DM interpreted Natural Bond to be able to offset the penalty for a stronger-than-average animal companion, so I'd like to take advantage of that (but I'm not sure where that would fit in to the build). The campaign is going for a "planar" feel, so I'm probably going to take the Planar Druid sub levels from the Planar HB (or at least the 4th and 9th level ones, the 13th one sucks). Oh, and before you ask, Planar Shepherd is right out. The DM saw it and laughed, saying something along the lines of "That's the most broken thing I've ever seen". So there it is. Any comments/criticisms would be welcome. Thanks in advance!
#2 cru Nov 05, 2010 5:03:27	I would recommend changing slightly your focus. Concentrate more on buffing / battlefield control to make other, weaker, non-optimized characters suck less. Anyway. You're getting Augment Summoning rather late. Perhaps you should not bother with it and try to retrain your lvl 3 feat into e.g. Greenbound Summoning. This would free your lvl 9 feat slot (perhaps for Rashemi) and allow you to get Dragon Wildshape asap at 12.
#3 spiral_rider_h Nov 05, 2010 21:22:33	Wild Shape is a pretty powerful class feature. I personally prefer to use the (albeit weaker but more fun in my opinion) shapeshift variant from PHB2. It seems to work beautifully with VoP, too. You'd lose your animal companion, too... but you can always take Wild Cohort (found here: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/200...) If you go with shapeshift, I'd do this: Human Druid (Shapeshift variant) 20 STR 12 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 20 Cha 8 For the VoP bonuses, go Wis>Dex>Con>Int. The shapeshifted forms will you give you an enhancement bonus to strength. I didn't take Saint into consideration because it's one of those "if you can get it, awesome. But I wouldn't plan around it." Level 1: Sacred Vow (human), Vow of Poverty Level 2: Nymph's Kiss (exalted) Level 3: Eschew Materials Level 4: Intuitive Attack (exalted) Level 6: Improved Natural Attack (bite), Touch of Golden Ice (exalted) Level 8: Sanctify Natural Attack (exalted) Level 9: Wild Cohort Level 10: Favored of The Companions (exalted) Level 12: Improved Natural Attack (slam), Gift of Faith (exalted) Level 14: Nimbus of Light (exalted) Level 15: Improved Initiative Level 16: Stigmata (exalted) Level 18: Quick Reconnoiter, Holy Radiance (exalted) Level 20: Animal Friend (exalted) Since it seems you're going to be the "big brother" for the other players, Stigmata could be useful for healing on the fly if necessary, and the initiative boosters put you in a good position to hold actions in case you need to heal an ally. Or turn into a fire elemental and pound the baddies into mush. Either way, it will be optimized without being a fun vacuum for the party.
#4 linklord231 Nov 08, 2010 1:12:24	Cru, unless I'm missing something, it seems like Druids do just fine being primary buffers even if they don't take feats like Extend/Persist/Chain Spell. I was planning on just memorizing a bunch of buff/battlefield control spells every day, then just Spontaneous SNA-ing as necessary. I'm definitely up to changing the build if that won't cut it though. You're right about Augment Summoning, though, it probably will be too late by level 9. I'll talk to my DM about retraining. Spiral_rider, I took a look at the shapeshift variant when I first decided to be a druid, but was frankly underwhelmed. The forms are pretty much universally weaker, and the idea of a druid without an animal companion just seems... wrong, to me at least. And I'm not sure my DM would appreciate me re-imagining my character that dramatically (to retroactively give myself the shapeshifting ACF and to edit my animal companion out of my backstory). I do like the ideas about the Improved Initiative and Improved Natural Attack line though. Also, a couple quick questions. 1) Does Touch of Golden Ice qualify you for Venomfire (Serpent Kingdom)? 2) Is there any way to increase the DC for Touch of Golden Ice, or does it become nearly useless at higher levels? And 3) On a more general note, am I missing something, or is Eschew Materials only useful in a grapple? If I recall correctly, a spell component pouch includes any material component that costs less than 1 gp - the same limitations on Eschew Materials.
#5 jandor1 Nov 09, 2010 8:42:23	eschew materials is really campaign dependent. If you guys track material components religiously, it could be useful for when you're grappled/taken prisoner/ambushed in an inn w/out having it in your hands/blah blah blah/if your DM doesn't let you keep it on a string around your neck when wildshaping ... but I think in most campaigns, and since divine casters usually only need a focus anyway (which for a druid is a piece of wood or a flower or some straw or what have you), it's a waste. As for your other questions: 1) don't know, and I'm not sure there's a solid ruling ... might have to ask your DM. If someone else knows for sure, though, I'm curious as well. 2) In theory you could take Ability Focus for a +2 to the DC, but you're feat starved as it is so I'm thinking you treat it as a bonus on a failed save rather than something to optimize. Other things: Greenbound Summoning is SUPER GOOD. Like, broken good. I wouldn't take it if you're worried about overshadowing your fellow PCs, because one of your greenbound wolves (especially if you have augment as well) will probably be better than the monk. By probably I mean definitely. From what I've heard, rashemi is also very good and is better at high levels (when elementals are worth summoning); so if you're looking for a level 15 feat or so that's a good option, and at that point the other spellcasters in the group will be super powerful anyway (if they're played with any degree of competence). I'm with you on keeping wild shape; to much utility, beyond the simple power. Shame about the fleshraker but honestly you're dangerous enough as it is :P If you can swing a couple of flaws at this point, they're definitely worth it. Sounds like you're already locked in the first 4 levels, though, so that's probably not an option. If you CAN, use them to get augment summoning and natural bond, then proceed with: 6th: natural spell 9th: greenbound or rashemi or extend (although I'd be more partial to improved init; going first is critical) 12th: dragon wildshape 15th: ?? 18th: ?? If you don't get flaws and want to be less super powered: 6th: natural 9th: augment summoning or imp init 12th: dragon wildshape or natural bond 15th: imp init if you took augment at 9th, otherwise open 18th: ?? Hope that helps! -J