stats: 28 point buy
str 5 dex 10 con 8 int 18 wis 18 cha 17
race is a gray elf for the int bonus and because I like playing elves
Level 1: wizard/cleric 1 spell focus(conjuration), scribe scroll
level 2: wizard/cleric 2
level 3: wizard/cleric 3 craft wondrous item
level 4: mystic theurge/mystic theurge 1 /cleric/wizard3 increase int
level 5: mystic theurge/mystic theurge 2 /cleric/wizard3
level 6: mystic theurge/mystic theurge 3 /cleric/wizard3 craft magic arms and armor
level 7: mystic theurge/mystic theurge 4 /cleric/wizard3
level 8: mystic theurge/mystic theurge 5 /cleric/wizard3 increase wis
level 9: mystic theurge/mystic theurge 6 /cleric/wizard3 craft rod
level 10: mystic theurge/mystic theurge 7 /cleric/wizard3
level 11: mystic theurge/mystic theurge 8 /cleric/wizard3
level 12: druid/sorceror 1/mystic theurge/mystic theurge 8/cleric/wizard 3
any feat increase cha
level 13: druid/sorceror 1/mystic theurge/mystic theurge 9/cleric/wizard 3
level 14: druid/sorceror 1/mystic theurge/mystic theurge 10/cleric/wizard 3
level 15: lore master/thaumaturgist 1/ druid/sorceror 1/mystic theurge/mystic theurge 10/cleric/wizard 3 any feat
level 16: lore master/thaumaturgist 2/ druid/sorceror 1/mystic theurge/mystic theurge 10/cleric/wizard 3 increase cha
level 17: lore master/thaumaturgist 3/ druid/sorceror 1/mystic theurge/mystic theurge 10/cleric/wizard 3
level 18: lore master/thaumaturgist 4/ druid/sorceror 1/mystic theurge/mystic theurge 10/cleric/wizard 3 any feat
level 19: lore master/thaumaturgist 5/ druid/sorceror 1/mystic theurge/mystic theurge 10/cleric/wizard 3
And then I'm stuck. I'm not sure what to do for 20. I'm not sure if this even really works. The idea is that the theurge levels stack, so I'm effectively getting 2 caster levels in both an arcane and divine class. Then I use lore master and thaumaturgist to further increase theurge. By level 11, I think I can cast as a level 19 wizard and a level 19 cleric, and by level 19, I think I can cast as a level 15 sorceror and a level 15 druid. But then I don't have a second class that will continue to increase my casting as a theurge, and I'm stuck.
Any suggestions on what I should do for 20th level? Or does this even work?
http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedGestalt.html
Prestige Classes
The high-powered nature of the gestalt character variant gives you more room to create unique prestige classes. First, you can create narrowly specialized prestige classes, and they'll still be compelling choices for PCs because the characters can simultaneously advance in a regular class while taking levels in the prestige class. Players won't feel shoehorned into a very specific prestige class if they have another class they're also advancing in. Second, you can create truly outrageous prestige classes - but add the additional cost that such classes take up both class choices for gestalt characters. For example, a prestige class that offered a d12 Hit Die, +1/level base attack bonus, two good saves, full spellcasting, and a host of class features would be completely unbalanced in a standard game. But if it takes up both "class slots" for a gestalt characters, it's no more powerful than taking a level in the barbarian/wizard gestalt.
Using the above, talk to your DM and see if you can get something like arcane heirophant (RotW) but upgraded to gestalt power and find a way to make it work with clerics...
Fighter 1//wizard 1. This means 1 level fighter and 1 of wizard on each side.
Fighter 1/rogue 1// wizard 2. This means one side has fighter 1/rogue 1, and the other has wizard 2.
I really cant make out what you classes are, but ill try to help.
wizard 3/cleric 3 is about as far as i can read it.
You are going to want to take things that give drastically diffrent things. I would recomend something like wizard 19/rage mage 1// barbarian X
It gives you all the wizardie powers, with d12 hit die, casting in a rage, good fort save, 4+ skill points a level, and full attack bonus for anything that needs it.
It seems you want to be a full caster in every class for some reason.
Consider the following build
wizard/druid/arcane heirophant//sorcerer/cleric mystic theuruge
you have to alternate which class advances in a dual casting prestige class, as you can't take two at a time. But it should be half decent and get the idea you want.
wizard 3/druid 3/arcane heirophant 1/ wizard 1/ heirphant 1/druid 1 ect// Cleric3/sorcerer 4/ mystic theuruge 1/ cleric 1/ theuruge 1/sorcerer 1/ ect.
Not the best build, but almost endless spells per day. Every one of your feats needs to be practiced spellcaster for some class.
- You cannot Prc on both sides of a gestalt.
- You cannot use double advancement classes like Mystic Theurge or Anima Mage.
Everything else:
So, you want a double threat arcane/divine gestalt caster. Fine.
Archivist 20//Wizard 5/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 5
This is a big improvement since:
- You only need INT and a very little bit of WIS
- You get the nice lore-related features of the Archivist and is nigh infinite spell list (DM dependant...)
- You get to be GOD on one side, and worship yourself on the other while you are at it :D
- You don't break any rule, and its easy to read too!
You really don't need to be more optimized than this. If you still feel you need more, play an Artificer.
My level order is probably off (ie sacred exorcist should be earlier for divine feats), but the class level total are there.
Archivist 14/ Holt Warden 1/ Contemplative 1/ Archivist+4//Wizard 3/ Geomancer 10/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ Wiz +2/ Filler Arcane PrC 4
My level order is probably off (ie sacred exorcist should be earlier for divine feats), but the class level total are there.
Definitely more optimized, even a bit over the top for a gestalt to get turning (and therefore divine meta-cheese) too :D.
The earlier entry for Sacred Exorcist is level 7 IIRC.
Two rules to consider:
- You cannot Prc on both sides of a gestalt.
- You cannot use double advancement classes like Mystic Theurge or Anima Mage.
Everything else:
So, you want a double threat arcane/divine gestalt caster. Fine.
Archivist 20//Wizard 5/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 5
This is a big improvement since:
- You only need INT and a very little bit of WIS
- You get the nice lore-related features of the Archivist and is nigh infinite spell list (DM dependant...)
- You get to be GOD on one side, and worship yourself on the other while you are at it :D
- You don't break any rule, and its easy to read too!
You really don't need to be more optimized than this. If you still feel you need more, play an Artificer.
Could I get a little more explanation on this? Specifically the books the classes come from?
wizard - player's handbook
master specialist - complete mage
archmage - dungeon master's guide.
Illumian Race
+2 Caster Level and turning for metamagic
Beguiler 20// 5 Factotum/ Dreadnecromancer 1/ Eldrich Master 10/ Mindbender 1/ Factotum 3
Starting, the beguiler casts spells spontaneously off of Int and it knows all the spells on its spell list. The Eldrich Master is from Dragon magazine 280. It gives a number of abilities, but most notably at levels 4 and 8 it adds another classes spell list to yours. Remeber the beguiler knows all the spells on its spell list. Pick the Archivist and sorcorer lists to copy giving you access to all divine spells and most arcane spells cast spontenously.
Now for the extras.
The beguiler gets 6 skills points a level and has a large selection (not to mention the factotum) with int being the main casting stat.
The illumian, with the help of turning attempts from the dread necromancer, will let you put up a few persistent spells a day.
Eldrich Master also adds its level to the level of effect of all arcane spells. This does not actually increase the caster level, but range, damage, and duration.
You will also get three bonus metamagic feats from eldrich master and 2 from the Beguiler.
Mind bender will give you telepathy and with the mindsight feat, you will be able to see all minds in that range like blind sight.
Factotum will add Int to all dex and str based skills, give you the ability to add int to a whole list of things, and buy spending two of your factotum inspiration points take extra actions each round.
All of this with being able to cast 95% of the spells in the game spontaneously. If other dragon magazines are available, there is also a grey hawk feat in dragon 319 that gives you bonus hit points off of Int instead of Con. Now you wont have as many spells per day as a dual caster, but you will have all the spell access you need with Int adding to almost everything as needed.
Dreadnecromancer can be swapped for cleric. If you dont want armor, you could work in a monk level with the Kung Fu genus feat that switches the AC bonus to Int from Wisdom.
Nitpick: Archivist technically doesn't have its own spell list.
Very true. I got away with it in a game I played, but it technically does not. You should be able to do well enough with the cleric list though if the DM does not let is pass.
You can also pick up a third spell list taking 3 levels of uncanny tricker advancing Eldrich Master by 2 levels. This will get you another list, a bonus metamagic feat, and an additional spell one level higher than your currently highest level spell. Again assuming your DM lets you advance class features beyond 10 levels pre epic.
Other options include mixing in bloodlines for increasing caster level and again the spell effects by 3 levels. Adding to this, you could go with 2 levels of telepath to get a manifestor level of 5 and taking 1 level of thrallherd. Nothing like a few mindless slaves.
Beguiler 20//
Telepath 1/Bloodlines 3/Telepath 1/Thrallherd 1/Eldrich Master 10/ Uncanny Trickster 3/ Dreadnecromancer or Cleric 1
The main point of any of these builds is a very diverse spellcasting list which you can cast spontaneously.
As a side note, this also works well in a normal 20 level build with a sorcorer kobold taking 4 levels of eldrich master. This ends with a spell progression of 18th level and grants bonus spells known up to 4th level. It takes sacrifice though if you want high level spells from another list, you need to pick up the augmented spell list before you stop progressing. Also very nice epic, practiced spell caster will cover the 4 levels needed to get the extended list.
To make things really strange, you can qualify for eldrich master if you can cast arcane spells but it does not specify the extended spell list is added to any specific class. The extra spells added are always cast as arcane spells. So for example, you could go Wizard 1/ Cleric 5/Eldrich master 4 adding wizard spells to your cleric list. Techniquely the cleric is now an arcane and divine spell casting class. IF you want to add to the confusion, throw in the alternate source spellcasting from dragon magazine or southern magician to be able to convert arcane and divine spell type freely.
Nitpick: Archivist technically doesn't have its own spell list.
Spell list is just the list of spells allowable to your class, so the Archivist spell list is all divine spells, with a special restriction that their free spells at each level must come from the Cleric spell list.
So, technically, they have one.
JaronK
Spell list is just the list of spells allowable to your class, so the Archivist spell list is all divine spells, with a special restriction that their free spells at each level must come from the Cleric spell list.
So, technically, they have one.
JaronK
I was under the impression that archivists just poached from other classes. Can you explain to me using the definition of "spell list" and the archivist text? You're generally right, so I'd just like an explanation.
Quick question: which is more powerful, an Archivist//Wizard gestalt, or a Factotum//wizard gestalt?
It is hard to guess, but i'm leaning toward the Factotum as actions (see lvl 8) have priority.
Maybe a little off, but i have a question as well: Can i use divine metamagic etc. with the opportunistic piety ability of the Factotum?
I was under the impression that archivists just poached from other classes. Can you explain to me using the definition of "spell list" and the archivist text? You're generally right, so I'd just like an explanation.
Just going by the general definition that seems to be always used (but never quite stated) that the spell list is simply a list of spells that you can cast (without UMD or similar). Thus, since the Archivist can cast all divine spells, the list of all divine spells is the same as the Archivist spell list.
JaronK
It is hard to guess, but i'm leaning toward the Factotum as actions (see lvl 8) have priority.
Combat actions are the most important priority in optimization, provided you can do good things with your actions. The problem with a normal factotum is that even though they can nova, their actions aren't really all that powerful. In a gestalt game, though, you can get around that, as you say.
Being able to cast two 9th level wizard spells per round >> being able to cast one 9th level wizard or cleric spell per round.
Quick question: which is more powerful, an Archivist//Wizard gestalt, or a Factotum//wizard gestalt?
without Fonts of Inspiration
Factotum+Wizard>Archvist+Wizard
though if you know how to properly build an archivist/wizard with the correct spell selection (and choosing spells that last all day, or spells that are free actions such as battlemagic perception) then an archivist wizard is close, but still inferior to the Factotum build.
With Fonts of Inspiration it isn't even a contest anymore.
If you do a factotum build I recommend doing a shadowcraft gnome build, and load up on wands of silent image. Combine with residual metamagic and metamagic spell trigger for the win (yes I like ninth level spells prior to ninth level, and I like the actions factotum gives me) Have both wands and staffs of silent image ready.
If you use the subsitution levels crafting a staff of silent image is this formula
375*1/2 (since due to the subsitution level silent image is now a catnip)*8=1500+
1 other catnip which takes 2 charges to activate
.75*375*1/2*8=562.5
total gp 2062.5 gp, with an artisan feat it is 1546.875 gp for 50 charges.
Now with metamagic spell trigger you can use 8 other charges to simulate a 9th level spell with earth spell, or a mere 400 gp. Cheap, very cheap for a battle ender.
----
(Don't waste feats on craft wand and craft staff, hire npcs or have a party crafter and you provide the spells, xp, and gp, binders make great crafters).
Another thought if this does work would be to copy the chameleon's spell list. This is even further out there, but they have access to all divine and arcane spells.
For the shadowcraft mage, can they modify spells cast from wands and staves?
For the other question of factotum, wizard, and archivist, I would think the archivist factotum combination would be the most powerful. Techniquely any arcane spell can be made into a divine spell with alternate spell source feat from dragon and alot can be found just on domain lists and the divine bard varient. Ha, if you are using action points, either factotum combination would be deadly. With unfettered heroism up, you could blow 4 or 5 action points to pick up additional font of inspiration feats, then use more points to cast the spells without using the spell slots. You could only be able to do it once a level, but pretty funny.
Stuff
I'm not buying it. Archivists cast divine spells, but their class list is never defined. Archivist does not "cast spells off the Class X list" and I've never seen an "Archivist 1" spell.
As far as I can tell, the archivist never get's its own spell list.
According to HoH the spells an archivist gets at level up are from the cleric spell list. So the cleric spell list = archivist spell list. The archivist just basically gets free "expanded knowledge" whenever it wants because it can add any divine spell to it's list. Arguably, until the spell is in its book it should not be on its list, but all cleric spells would be, just like a wizard.
That's probably the best way to play it. Makes sense.