Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sirpercival Nov 04, 2011 10:18:06	I was recently challenged to build a character based on the following guidelines, and I'd love to have some critiques on it. Guidelines: 1) Make a character who is effective and fun to play, but is based almost entirely on SKILL USE.  As in, a true skill monkey; not a character who has taken on the job of performing whatever actions that requires skills, but a character who is entirely built on skill use. 2) Restrictions: No real spellcasting, no ToB maneuvers. 3) The character should be effective in combat, being able to do significant amounts of damage if the necessity should arise. Here's my build: Human Factotum 16/Cloistered Cleric 1/Master of Masks 1/Chameleon 2 32pb: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 14.  All level bumps go to Int. 1 Factotum 1, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Able Learner, Skill Focus: Iaijutsu Focus (flaw), Font of Inspiration (flaw), Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Trapfinding 2 CC 1, Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Trickery Devotion, Turn Undead 3 Factotum 2, Weapon Finesse, Arcane Dilettante (1 spell, 0th level) 4 Factotum 3, Brains over Brawn, Cunning Defense 5 Factotum 4, Arcane Dilettante (2 spells, 1st level), Cunning Strike 6 MoM 1, Boomerang Daze, Gladiator Mask, other mask 7 Chameleon 1, Aptitude Focus 1/day 8 Chameleon 1, Bonus feat (floating, usually Item Familiar) 9-20 Factotum 5-16, all feats Font of Inspiration Equipment: Gloves of Dex +6 Cloak of Charisma +6 Headband of Intellect +6 +1 Warning Eager Aptitude Gnomish Quickrazor with wand chamber Wand of Nerveskitter +5 tome of clear thought Some nightsticks Skill Tricks: Acrobatic Backstab, Escape Attack Skills: max ranks in Iaijutsu Focus, Use Magic Device, Tumble, Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Knowledges; 5 ranks in Balance; rest free. Tactics: Win initiative (+29 without Improved Init), then use the quickrazor to boomerang daze your target each round so that they cannot take an action and are always flat-footed.  The DC for the daze should be high, since you are using Iaijutsu Focus to get a big bonus to damage.  Use your floating feat on Item Familiar (you can reallocate you skill bonuses every time you take the feat) to get large bonuses to UMD, IF, and Knowledges.  Use Trickery Devotion to abuse your massive skill ranks -- your shadow can use IF too, can't it??  And, it can SoH to steal stuff from your opponent. This build was deemed within the restrictions since the Arcane Dilettante abilities are extremely limited in terms of spellcasting, and with a 10 wisdom you can only cast 0th-level cleric spells (though it's nice not to have to UMD cleric items).  Faerie Mysteries Initiate is there to allow Int to hp instead of Con; no other dragon material was used. Thoughts??
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 04, 2011 12:49:35	No Tome of Battle? Diamond Mind is all about turning skill checks (Concentration) into effectiveness. It even has a single move in it that lets you trigger Iaijutsu on demand if you draw your weapon just before using it. (Sapphire Nightmare Blade.) Still....  You'll need some method of rendering any target beyond the first flat-footed, unless you start battle with everyone within your reach. The easiest way I know of to do this (without changing a lot of class levels around to things like Blade Bravo) is the Giantbane feat, using your Dilettante spell on Reduce Person to get it to trigger. Nightsticks don't stack - they don't actually give Extra Turning, they give +4 turn attempts, and it's a bonus from the same source. Using Chameleon's floating feat on Item Familiar is clever, but it may backfire - when you lose the feat, you lose the familiar, which comes with its own costs last I checked.
#3 sirpercival Nov 04, 2011 14:01:03	Hm, ok on the Nightsticks.  Just means more money for other equipment, I guess. The best way I could think of (after the first opponent) was Acrobatic Backstab with Travel Devotion, but I see now that you can only use that once per encounter... crap.  Well, it'll mean one less FoI, but it's worth it.  As for losing the item familiar, you ALSO lose the "special" entry of the feat, which is what carries the penalty -- at least, that's how I read it.  Is that wrong by RAW?
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 04, 2011 16:07:49	The best way I could think of (after the first opponent) was Acrobatic Backstab with Travel Devotion, but I see now that you can only use that once per encounter... crap.  Well, it'll mean one less FoI, but it's worth it. You can get multiple uses out of a single skill trick using Uncanny Trickster, and it even advances other class' class features while you're at it. That said, Giantbane has no such limit, but also requires specific tactics to work, and many character types don't employ those tactics. That's why I'm sad that there's no Tome of Battle. Sapphire Nightmare Blade, for instance, requires you to use a Concentration check to hit your target; if you succeed, you render them flat-footed against your attack and deal a small amount of bonus damage. If you draw your weapon in advance, you're triggering iaijutsu through sheer force of will and evaluating your opponent's strategy and stance. That's directly turning two skills into killing power. (I have a build available that works off of this.) There are even other abilities that are more strongly tied to Concentration - replacing saving throws and damage rolls with concentration checks! Boo on your DM for banning it. As for losing the item familiar, you ALSO lose the "special" entry of the feat, which is what carries the penalty -- at least, that's how I read it.  Is that wrong by RAW? It's unclear (as is a lot of the subtlety found in Unearthed Arcana), but it's certainly gamey and likely to raise some ire. Also, looking it up, I don't think boomerang daze will work here. If you daze a target, they take no actions, but their turn still comes up. The definition of flat-footed says "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order)" and it's the italic part that shows what it's specifically referring to. Thus, a flat-footed target who is dazed before his turn can take no actions on that first regular turn, but critically, that turn happens, and thus he's no longer flat-footed.
#5 sirpercival Nov 04, 2011 18:23:29	I agree with you about ToB -- the challenger's reasoning was "it's the book that's most commonly banned." I'm getting mixed reviews on the Boomerang Daze thing -- www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p...
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 04, 2011 19:01:38	I agree with you about ToB -- the challenger's reasoning was "it's the book that's most commonly banned." I'm getting mixed reviews on the Boomerang Daze thing -- www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p...   I'm with Curmudgeon here. The full definition, complete with a specificity, is "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed." The fact that they call out the specifics is important. It also matches perfectly with the glossary ("Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle."). Roll initiative. You get a 15. I get a 17. Init 20. Neither of us have had our  turn yet. We're both flat-footed. Init 17. It's my first turn, so I'm no longer flat-footed.  I toss a boomerang at you and daze you so you can take no actions. Init 16. It's before your first turn, so you're still flat-footed (as well as dazed). Init 15. It's your first turn, so you're no longer flat-footed. However, you're dazed. While you can take no actions, it's still your turn, so you aren't flat-footed. See how it works? That full definition matters a LOT. Because it specifically calls out what to look for, it's basically declaring the former (action) as an alias or symptom of the latter (before your first turn). It's like saying that an explosive chemical reaction is inert before it starts giving off heat rapidly (specifically, before the two chemicals are mixed). Sure, the usual sequence is mix, heat, BOOM, but you can also imagine many chemical explosions that do not involve rapid release of heat for whatever circumstance (for instance, those that "explode" due to rapid off-gassing or those who are thermally inhibited). Note that if it's as I say (your turn, not your action, that matters) all four definitions on GiantITP (PHB initiative, PHB flat-footed, SRD definition, PHB glossary) all line up, as before your turn you have no chance to act. This is parsimonius, with no conflict. If it's the alternative (action, not the turn order, that matters), there's a conflict between the Initiative/Flat-footed sections in the PHB and the PHB glossary/SRD definitions.  That conflict suggests an error.
#7 sirpercival Nov 04, 2011 19:28:31	I think I agree with you that that's what the rule is, though (if I may threaten some catgirls for a moment) it kind of makes sense intuitively the other way -- if you're caught by surprise and then continually dazed, you might be disoriented and unable to properly get your bearings. So here's a question: if the Boomerang Daze trick didn't work, AND we allowed ToB material, what changes would you make to the build?  I had been keeping Factotum 16 for Cunning Breach, but if we axe that, we can add in some swordsage and/or warblade.  I don't know if it's worth the level of MoM since I had done that to get proficiency in both Quickrazor and Boomerang; I also don't know if Chameleon is worth it or not.  I'd love to build in some Uncanny Trickster as well since it makes so much sense with the concept, and Acrobatic Backstab is excellent.  AND, which is better for the build, Swordsage or Warblade?  I would normally say Warblade for Int synergy (and weapon aptitude), but Swordsage gets you Shadow Jaunt, etc.  Blargh.  Too many options.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 04, 2011 21:35:20	I think I agree with you that that's what the rule is, though (if I may threaten some catgirls for a moment) it kind of makes sense intuitively the other way -- if you're caught by surprise and then continually dazed, you might be disoriented and unable to properly get your bearings. Right, which is the Dazed condition. You're aware there's targets nearby and you retain your Dex to AC, though - you aren't caught unawares. So here's a question: if the Boomerang Daze trick didn't work, AND we allowed ToB material, what changes would you make to the build?  I had been keeping Factotum 16 for Cunning Breach, but if we axe that, we can add in some swordsage and/or warblade.  I don't know if it's worth the level of MoM since I had done that to get proficiency in both Quickrazor and Boomerang; I also don't know if Chameleon is worth it or not.  I'd love to build in some Uncanny Trickster as well since it makes so much sense with the concept, and Acrobatic Backstab is excellent.  AND, which is better for the build, Swordsage or Warblade?  I would normally say Warblade for Int synergy (and weapon aptitude), but Swordsage gets you Shadow Jaunt, etc.  Blargh.  Too many options.  The simplest solution is to take Sapphire Nightmare Blade via warblade levels for the fast recharge (note that the maneuver renders the target flat-footed if the Concentration check succeeds). If you want to use it quickly, you can play a kalashtar and pick up the Psychic Renewal feat - this actually spares you the need to get the warblade level, but the results are limited by your daily PP since Martial Study maneuvers can only be recovered through means like this. (Of course, this also means you can employ several 1pp cognizance crystals if you want - one advantage of this trick is that SNB is only 1st level.) This adds +1d6+((Iaijutsu focus check -5)/5), max 9)d6 damage to the attack strictly on virtue of your skills. You might be able to outdo it with other maneuvers - in fact, since this averages just +35 damage, you can probably outdo it with just a regular old Insightful Strike if you're cheesing up Concentration (or Greater Insightful Strike if you aren't). But it's an interesting fallback plan and neither of these methods precludes you from using the other. If you're only taking one level for this (i.e. you're not interested in Insightful Strike), swordsage is better: if you're using the Instant Clarity route to recover, you're not using its slow-ass recovery system, and it DOES give you teleports if you want them and a stance that boosts your fire resistance through Tumble ranks, plus a counter that lets you resist attacks using Sense Motive. You lose SOME Int synergy (unless Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk works on the Unarmed Swordsage variant, in which case you exchange +Reflex (max class level) and possibly +Critical Confirms for +AC), in exchange for getting many additional thematic maneuvers that remain powerful. If you're doing this as a level 20 experiment instead of a playable character from 1 onwards, take your swordsage levels last. Likewise, apply your Uncanny Trickster levels to your Swordsage levels instead of your Factotum ones. This advances the effective level of swordsage, but as a non-swordsage level still counts half on its own. Thus, three levels of Uncanny Trickster adds +2 to your swordsage level and +3 to your non-swordsage levels, effectively counting at +3.5 initiator levels.  For instance, Factotum 16 / SSage 1 / Uncanny Trickster[SSage] 3 learns 8 maneuvers, the first six of which at IL 9 (meaning up to level 5 maneuvers, although your first-level stance has to be a level 1 maneuver; read it carefully), the next at IL 11 and the next at level 12.5 (both get you level 6 maneuvers, which can include a stance of up to that point and Greater Insightful Strike!). The number of maneuvers involved should give you all the prereqs you'd need. One possible maneuver loadout using this timing: 17: Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Shadow Stride, Baffling Defense, Action Before Thought, Moment of Perfect Mind, Mind over Body, [Flame's Blessing] 19: Greater Insightful Strike, [Assassin's Stance] 20: Stalker in the Night (There are probably better choices than Assassin's, but it triggers on every Sapphire Nightmare Blade you make, so...)  (All of these except Assassin's and Shadow Stride factor directly into your skills, so I think you'll appreciate that.)