Crunching numbers with shurikans for fun (not actually gunna play this build) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Crunching numbers with shurikans for fun (not actually gunna play this build)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Smite_Thy_Enemiesof_Metal
Feb 08, 2012 0:24:43 *I'm not sure this build has already been done (or at least something similiar). So I don't want to take credit in making it myself*

*I dont actually want to play this exact build (the dm would never allow it lol), but I was just bored and felt like crunching some statistics and numbers. If I do play something like this next game, its going to be a lot more tame. I would probaly just forgo the two weapon fighting chain.*

*I'm not going to list the entire level by level build order, you guys can get the jist*

Human Ninja 5/ Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 4/ Master Thrower 5/ Assassin 3

Starting Stats (Our house uses a +9 modifier for generating stats):
Str 8         Int 17
Dex 18      Wis 16
Con 12      Cha 8

Final Stats w/ optimal gear + innate leveling stat ups:
Str 10      Int 24
Dex 28    Wis 16
Con 12   Cha 8

Feats (some are from the classes, others are fighter bonus feats):

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Expanded Ki Pool, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Shurikan), Weapon Specialization (Shurikan), Ranged Weapon Specialization (Piercing), Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw, Snatch Arrows, Improved Critical (Shurikan)

Optimal Weapons (I think you can apply magical enhancements to a "stack" of 50 with this particular weapon. I am not 100% sure though):
       x18 +3 shurikan of shock w/ greater crystals of returning OR just a stack of x50 +1 Returning Shurikans of Shock

Master Thrower abilities:
       -Palm Throw: 2 attacks w/ throw weapon for every 1 attack
       -Weak Spot: Throw attacks are treated as touch attacks
       - Sneaky Shot OR Trip Shot

Base Attack: +17/+12/+7/+4
To Hit calculator:
      +17 BAB,
      +9 dex,
      +3 weapon enhancement,
      +3 feats (Weapon Focus, Ranged Weapon Specialization),
      +2 from striking while invisible (Ghost Step Ki Power)
      +1 Point Blank Shot,
      +1 haste (Boots of speed),
      -2 Two Weapon Fighting penalties

*I am aware that the initial throw would break the invis, therefore losing the +2 attack bonus, but let's just pretend for the purpose of the math, I would be under the affects of a Greater Invisibiliy spell lol*

Full round attack w/ Palm Throw while hasted: +34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+19/+19

*The enemy will most likley be flat footed (me going first in initiative, assassin spell distract assailent, Ghost Step, etc)*
*The Master Thrower ability Weak Spot treats all throw attacks as touch attacks*
*Flat footed touch ACs are REALLY easy to hit for the most part. So I'll have a really high hit rating*

Damage per shurikan:
   1d2 Weapon,
       +7 Insightful strike,
       +3 enhancment bonus
       +4 Feats (Weapon Spec, Ranged Weapon Spec)
       +1 Point Blank Shot
       +1d6 Electric,
       +3d6 sudden strike,
       +2d6 sneak attack,

1 Shurikan (assuming the all the conditions apply)= 1d2 + 6d6 + 15

18 Shurikans= 18d2 + 108d6 + 252
          Max damage non crit: 936
          Average damage non crit: 468

Now let us equip a Belt of Battle and say we go first on intiative. If the poor sop survives the initial onslaught, pop three charges to gain another full round action. That's insanity. I'm not gunna do the math for that though, you guys get the picture.

Obviously DR is gunna be a huge problem, but whatever. There is always the Shadow Strike enhancement from Tome of Magic.

Like I said, I was just bored and decided to do some number crunching. Feel free to add any input you wish. Thanks for reading and you all have a great day/night.
           -- Tom

#2
Tempest_Stormwind
Feb 08, 2012 11:34:45 It's "shuriken", not "shurikan". I'm twitching reading through this. Still, mechanically it looks sound and straightforward - well done.

Shuriken are enhanced (and drawn) as if they were ammunition, despite operating in all other ways as thrown weapons; this makes some other options not normally available to throwers surprisingly good. No need to stop at 18; you enhance 'em in packs of 50.

Which reminds me, I've got a build handy (brainchild of a tablemate) that throws more than this. Doesn't have as many individual bonuses to damage (mean is something like 1d2+6 or so to begin with, before Blood kicks in), but the sheer number combine with Blood in th Water to get into wrecking-ball territory. (Swordsage 2 / Monk 3 / Shadow Sun Ninja 3 / Master Thrower 3 / SSN +3 / Eternal Blade 2 / SSN +2 / Swordsage+2 with Greater TWF, Rapid Shot, Palm Throw / Two With One Blow, Blood in the Water (with Keen shurikens and 20 throws per full attack the results are sickening), Raging Mongoose (works with ranged weapons!), Moment of Alacrity, and Time Stands Still.) If he chained these maneuvers together, we're talking 74 attacks in one round, and every time they roll a crit, Blood in the Water gives all attacks another +1 attack/damage.

(I was competing against the tablemate who did this and eventually created a gun-fu build that unloaded even more shots using a similar trick, and under the right conditions had statistically unlimited attacks, but this was far more gear reliant than his, which essentially works out the same if he's naked.)

#3
The_Fred
Feb 08, 2012 12:20:20 If your DM will let you take (and reuse) Returning Shuriken (the rules are sketchy on this point) you can get some quick firepower very cheaply - and thus at a low level. One such shuriken is a +2 weapon and, as ammo, thus costs 166gp. You can add another +1 (e.g. Flaming) and it's still only 300 and something. It's a bit of an abuse, though.
#4
Maat_Mons
Feb 08, 2012 21:29:21
Magic shuriken are destroyed after each use. If you switch to reusable weapons, you're spending over 360,000 gp on them, which is more than half your wealth.

There are three things that can allow you to full attack with a single thrown weapon. The lightning ricochet ability of the bloodstorm blade prestige class (Tome of Battle) does this best. The telekinetic boomerang power (Races of the Wild) does this, but requires playing a psionic character and is only practical for one weapon. The superior catch ability of the wisperknife prestige class sort of does this, but limits you in strange ways.

The errata for Complete warrior says precision-based damage is only applied to one of the weapons. The best damage source for palm throw I've thought of is the power throw feat (Complete Adventurer). It's essentially power attack for thrown weapons, and it's not precision-based.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Smite_Thy_Enemiesof_Metal Feb 08, 2012 0:24:43	I'm not sure this build has already been done (or at least something similiar). So I don't want to take credit in making it myself I dont actually want to play this exact build (the dm would never allow it lol), but I was just bored and felt like crunching some statistics and numbers. If I do play something like this next game, its going to be a lot more tame. I would probaly just forgo the two weapon fighting chain. I'm not going to list the entire level by level build order, you guys can get the jist *Human Ninja 5/ Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 4/ Master Thrower 5/ Assassin 3* Starting Stats (Our house uses a +9 modifier for generating stats): Str 8 Int 17 Dex 18 Wis 16 Con 12 Cha 8 Final Stats w/ optimal gear + innate leveling stat ups: Str 10 Int 24 Dex 28 Wis 16 Con 12 Cha 8 Feats (some are from the classes, others are fighter bonus feats): Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Expanded Ki Pool, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Shurikan), Weapon Specialization (Shurikan), Ranged Weapon Specialization (Piercing), Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw, Snatch Arrows, Improved Critical (Shurikan) Optimal Weapons (I think you can apply magical enhancements to a "stack" of 50 with this particular weapon. I am not 100% sure though): x18 +3 shurikan of shock w/ greater crystals of returning OR just a stack of x50 +1 Returning Shurikans of Shock Master Thrower abilities: -Palm Throw: 2 attacks w/ throw weapon for every 1 attack -Weak Spot: Throw attacks are treated as touch attacks - Sneaky Shot OR Trip Shot Base Attack: +17/+12/+7/+4 To Hit calculator: +17 BAB, +9 dex, +3 weapon enhancement, +3 feats (Weapon Focus, Ranged Weapon Specialization), +2 from striking while invisible (Ghost Step Ki Power) +1 Point Blank Shot, +1 haste (Boots of speed), -2 Two Weapon Fighting penalties I am aware that the initial throw would break the invis, therefore losing the +2 attack bonus, but let's just pretend for the purpose of the math, I would be under the affects of a Greater Invisibiliy spell lol Full round attack w/ Palm Throw while hasted: +34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+19/+19 The enemy will most likley be flat footed (me going first in initiative, assassin spell distract assailent, Ghost Step, etc) The Master Thrower ability Weak Spot treats all throw attacks as touch attacks Flat footed touch ACs are REALLY easy to hit for the most part. So I'll have a really high hit rating Damage per shurikan: 1d2 Weapon, +7 Insightful strike, +3 enhancment bonus +4 Feats (Weapon Spec, Ranged Weapon Spec) +1 Point Blank Shot +1d6 Electric, +3d6 sudden strike, +2d6 sneak attack, 1 Shurikan (assuming the all the conditions apply)= 1d2 + 6d6 + 15 18 Shurikans= 18d2 + 108d6 + 252 Max damage non crit: 936 Average damage non crit: 468 Now let us equip a Belt of Battle and say we go first on intiative. If the poor sop survives the initial onslaught, pop three charges to gain another full round action. That's insanity. I'm not gunna do the math for that though, you guys get the picture. Obviously DR is gunna be a huge problem, but whatever. There is always the Shadow Strike enhancement from Tome of Magic. Like I said, I was just bored and decided to do some number crunching. Feel free to add any input you wish. Thanks for reading and you all have a great day/night. -- Tom
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 08, 2012 11:34:45	It's "shuriken", not "shurikan". I'm twitching reading through this. Still, mechanically it looks sound and straightforward - well done. Shuriken are enhanced (and drawn) as if they were ammunition, despite operating in all other ways as thrown weapons; this makes some other options not normally available to throwers surprisingly good. No need to stop at 18; you enhance 'em in packs of 50. Which reminds me, I've got a build handy (brainchild of a tablemate) that throws more than this. Doesn't have as many individual bonuses to damage (mean is something like 1d2+6 or so to begin with, before Blood kicks in), but the sheer number combine with Blood in th Water to get into wrecking-ball territory. (Swordsage 2 / Monk 3 / Shadow Sun Ninja 3 / Master Thrower 3 / SSN +3 / Eternal Blade 2 / SSN +2 / Swordsage+2 with Greater TWF, Rapid Shot, Palm Throw / Two With One Blow, Blood in the Water (with Keen shurikens and 20 throws per full attack the results are sickening), Raging Mongoose (works with ranged weapons!), Moment of Alacrity, and Time Stands Still.) If he chained these maneuvers together, we're talking 74 attacks in one round, and every time they roll a crit, Blood in the Water gives all attacks another +1 attack/damage. (I was competing against the tablemate who did this and eventually created a gun-fu build that unloaded even more shots using a similar trick, and under the right conditions had statistically unlimited attacks, but this was far more gear reliant than his, which essentially works out the same if he's naked.)
#3 The_Fred Feb 08, 2012 12:20:20	If your DM will let you take (and reuse) Returning Shuriken (the rules are sketchy on this point) you can get some quick firepower very cheaply - and thus at a low level. One such shuriken is a +2 weapon and, as ammo, thus costs 166gp. You can add another +1 (e.g. Flaming) and it's still only 300 and something. It's a bit of an abuse, though.
#4 Maat_Mons Feb 08, 2012 21:29:21	Magic shuriken are destroyed after each use. If you switch to reusable weapons, you're spending over 360,000 gp on them, which is more than half your wealth. There are three things that can allow you to full attack with a single thrown weapon. The lightning ricochet ability of the bloodstorm blade prestige class (Tome of Battle) does this best. The telekinetic boomerang power (Races of the Wild) does this, but requires playing a psionic character and is only practical for one weapon. The superior catch ability of the wisperknife prestige class sort of does this, but limits you in strange ways. The errata for Complete warrior says precision-based damage is only applied to one of the weapons. The best damage source for palm throw I've thought of is the power throw feat (Complete Adventurer). It's essentially power attack for thrown weapons, and it's not precision-based.