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| #1sakrisNov 25, 2009 4:59:36 | OMG what have they done to this site/forum :-( Anyways... maybe I'll play a 5-10 campaign soon, and I'd like to try a crusader. 1. Question: Since we allow Flaws I have 2 Feat-Choices left, any hints? Currently I have Extra Granted Maneuver, Stone Power, Weapon Focus Edit: Martial Study sounds interesting... but what maneuver to choose? Iron Heart Surge? 2. Question: All those cool maneuvers use standard or full actions - making the 2nd attack I get at 6th level kind of pointless. Is there a way around this or is this just a downside I have to live with? |
| #2innabinderNov 25, 2009 10:33:01 | OMG what have they done to this site/forum :-( (What have they done to the site/forum? Made it 'new and improved'*) 1. If you have WRT already, then yes, take IHS. If not, WRT should probably be your first choice. 2. This might be helpful: Originally Posted by Tempest Stormwind [post=5305146](link)[/post] The Grand Compilation of Full-Attack Charging PC Tricks (by approximate level of availability; missing Sandstorm, Lost Empires of Faerun, Lords of Madness, Heroes of Battle, Champions of Ruin) NO TEMPLATES ARE LISTED HERE. Also, certain abilities only work in the first round of combat. Others work any time they are used. 1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (berserker lodge feat (RP restriction), light weapons only, Unapproachable East) 1) Lion Totem Barbarian, class variant, Complete Champion 1) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, human only, single light weapon only, Shining South) 2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Racial feat: Catfolk, Races of the Wild. Available at character level 1, but listed at level 2 because of Catfolk's +1 LA) 4) Psionic Lion's Charge (2nd level psywar power, augments to add damage to each attack, Expanded Psionic's Handbook) 5) Lion's Charge (3rd level druid / 2th level ranger spell, Spell Compendium) 5) Wild Shape (Fleshraker, Monster Manual III) 6) Lion's Pounce Wild Feat (Complete Divine), only after using wildshape, see text 6) Bestial charge, feat, Complete Champion 7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities) 7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph, but might require Supernatural Transformation) 8) Wild Shape (Tiger) (If Core-only.) 8) Weretouched II: Tiger (Weretouched Master prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, Eberron CS) 10) Pouncing Ambush (5th level Reachrunner prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, against flat-footed opponent only, Races of Eberron) 11) Lion's Pounce (4th level Sigh Rager prestige class ability, Oriental Adventures) 11) Lion's Pounce (5th level Lion of Talisid prestige class ability, Book of Exalted Deeds) 13) Drift 4: Pounce like a leopard (7th level Geomancer drift, Complete Divine) 17) Shapechange spell (many forms grant Pounce or an extra move action, or something sicker (Chronotryn (FF), Choker).) 17) Greater Metamorphosis power (As Shapechange, but may require Metamorphic Transfer feat) 21) Dire Charge epic feat (Widely accepted as at least slightly underpowered, but works regardless of your equipment or magic availability. Draconomicon) Variable level: Claws of the Leopard (spiked gauntlets, Complete Adventurer, priced at 38,305. Only works with the claws themselves). Note that the Great Granddaddy of Wild Shape, the Mulhorandi Divine Minion, may be able to pull off some of these far earlier than other characters. With sufficient cheatery twinks, anything is possible. Runner-ups (those with similar abilities that do not exactly count as charging): Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier and Halfling Outrider, CW; Kishi Charger, OA, possibly others) Dervish Dance (Dervish, CW) Hustle (Psychic Warrior / Egoist power, XPH) Wild Plains Offensive (Wild Plains Outrider, CV) Shadow Pounce (Teflammar Shadowlord, UE), ecl 11 Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, two light weapons only, Shining South) Two-Weapon Spring Attack (Tempest, CV) Dimension Spring Attack (Elocator, XPH) Black Magic Oil: Malign Fury (Warrior of Darkness, BoVD) *'new and improved' is subjective. Opinions vary. Some might call the new and improved version a migraine-inducing eyesore with less intuitive functionality than before. Others might love the new layout. Ahem. |
| #3sakrisNov 25, 2009 14:37:58 |
Ah WRT looks nice :-) Since I have 2 Flaws I can grab both WRT and IHS :-) Charging looks interesting... can I charge/pounce AND use a maneuver at the same time? :-) Lion Totem Barbarian sounds neat :-) I read in that other Thread though Barbarian is now a required one-level dip for most non-lawful melee types that do not use Tome of Battle What does he mean by that? |
| #4streamoftheskyNov 25, 2009 17:36:06 | Ah WRT looks nice :-) Since I have 2 Flaws I can grab both WRT and IHS :-) Wait...how? Unless your DM is allowing otherwise, you get your flaw-granted feats at level 1. Not The starting level of the game (5). So, you could not get either until level 5+ (required IL for a level 3 maneuver, and actually, you'd only get to add half your Crusader level for Iron Heart, so make that Crusader 10+), and you won't have a feat to buy them with until level 6. I reccommend: Take a WR stance at level 1 or 2. I like Leading the Charge. It counts as your one required maneuver known for WRT. So you can just grab WRT via class at level 5. For IHS, you'll need more than one feat (it has required maneuvers known) and high level. I'd say just enter Warblade at level 9. Then as Crusader 8 / Warblade 1, you'll be IL 5 for Warblade and can just take IHS as one of your class maneuvers known.
No, unless it's a boost or counter. Charge is its own full round action. No using another full round or standard action strike as well. Unless you somehow get extra actions that round, like say...with a Belt of Battle (Magic Item Compendium).
He means Pounce is a stupidly powerful and useful ability for any melee character, and Lion Totem barb makes it a one level dip to obtain, making it a no-brainer for anyone to grab that is capable of doing so (non-lawful, per barb requirements, and won't face multiclassing xp penalties for it, though I'd argue it's STILL worth it even then). However, if you're a Tome of Battle class, you have lots of other maneuvers to use for similar damage that you can't do while charging anyway, making it less important for you. Also, Pouncing Charge is a level 5 Tiger Claw maneuver, so you can get the ability to pounce (except for Crusaders) without needless multiclassing. Another also...Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind (and in some cases Setting Sun and Diamond Mind) allow you to move as a swift or immediate action with some maneuvers, allowing to to move and full attack, without needing pounce. |
| #5sakrisNov 26, 2009 0:15:47 | Ah WRT looks nice :-) Since I have 2 Flaws I can grab both WRT and IHS :-) Oh good catch. I guess I'll just take WRT then, I had Revitalizing Strike until now. And again I have 2 Feats to spare :-)
Ok good Idea.
Ah very interesting... so I guess if you have maneuvers extra attacks just aren't that useful. I might try Crusader 3 / Something Else 2 with Spiked Chain, Thicket of Blades, Combat Reflexes... How early can I get the Thicket of Blades stance? Crusader 3/4/8? And whats the best way to become large? Enlarge Person? And if I'm large, do I threaten everything within 20 feet of me? xD sounds fun and powerful if the enemies are trippable... |
| #6aelryinthNov 30, 2009 17:01:01 | Note that he made an Error. A Crusader uses his full IL to qualify for Manuvers in disciplines he doesn't have (like Ironheart). Half IL is for classes who don't have an IL. Unless you have to, I wouldn't blow a stance you don't want to keep, as there's no way to swap it out. I recommend instead grabbing a low level White Raven manuver, and then swapping that out at a later level. As for multiple attacks vs manuvers, the other Disciplines have damage strikes that deal the damage of full attacks as standard actions (such as the Nightmare blade sequence of x2, x3, and x4 damage...). YOur full attack actions are for when you don't have manuvers to spend, or if you are a warblade and need to refresh. I'd also point out the Ironheart Conc for Saves manuvers turn saves into 'can't miss' effects. Stone Power is a trap. Reducing your offensive ability for a modicum of defensive ability just means you become someone the enemy ignores, and whom you can barely hit and do dmg to. Just LOOK at the Crusader...he does his best when he IS getting hit. If the enemy ignores him, he's arguably the worst melee class out there. ===Aelryinth |
| #7tytalusDec 01, 2009 4:21:30 | Note that he made an Error. A Crusader uses his full IL to qualify for Manuvers in disciplines he doesn't have (like Ironheart). Half IL is for classes who don't have an IL. That's highly debatable. The example in ToB, p.39, shows otherwise. |
| #8streamoftheskyDec 02, 2009 0:01:36 | Note that he made an Error. A Crusader uses his full IL to qualify for Manuvers in disciplines he doesn't have (like Ironheart). Half IL is for classes who don't have an IL. I disagree with that. Do you have any examples from the book to demonstrate that is what they meant by the IL rules? Unless you have to, I wouldn't blow a stance you don't want to keep, as there's no way to swap it out. I recommend instead grabbing a low level White Raven manuver, and then swapping that out at a later level. 1.) While I know it's RAW that you can build a "card table with no legs" -- use a low level maneuver to qualify for others, then swap it out so you're left with only maneuvers that require maneuvers in order to obtain, so that you end up with a maneuver list that would be otherwise impossible to piece together from scratch -- a lot of DMs will not allow that kind of exploit. And if you do have such a DM (like me), that means you will need to pay for a low level WR maneuver with no other ones required if you don't want a WR stance. And the low level WR maneuvers aren't that amazing. 2.) Leading the Charge is an awesome stance. Even at later levels, it's far from a waste to have known. 3.) Someone doing straight Crusader 20 or otherwise gaining his first few character levels in it has to grab 2 level 1 stances anyway. You only have what? 5 to pick from? 2 from WR of those 5? You're not losing out on that much getting a WR stance. As for multiple attacks vs manuvers, the other Disciplines have damage strikes that deal the damage of full attacks as standard actions (such as the Nightmare blade sequence of x2, x3, and x4 damage...). YOur full attack actions are for when you don't have manuvers to spend, or if you are a warblade and need to refresh. Also worth noting is that since you really don't need full attacks, but many other melee creatures do to do big damage, being an adept means it's often advantageous to deny yourself (and the enemy) full attacks by staying mobile. Unfortunately, Crusaders don't get Tumble as a skill, making that harder than for the other 2 classes. I'd also point out the Ironheart Conc for Saves manuvers turn saves into 'can't miss' effects. Those are Diamond Mind maneuvers. Iron Heart does have a maneuver to reroll a failed save, but it's not available for a while (level 5 maneuver, I think). Stone Power is a trap. Reducing your offensive ability for a modicum of defensive ability just means you become someone the enemy ignores, and whom you can barely hit and do dmg to. Just LOOK at the Crusader...he does his best when he IS getting hit. If the enemy ignores him, he's arguably the worst melee class out there. It's weaker at higher levels when 10 hp isn't much. It's amazing at early levels, and worth taking in a game that extends to high levels if the DM will let you retrain it later on. The point of it is not to reduce offense for defense, in the sense of combat expertise. A Crusader (ab)uses the timing in which his delayed damage pool actually goes into effect as hp damage combined with the one round pick-your-temp-hp boon of Stone Power to custom fit the temp hp he adds to match the damage he's about to suffer (since the player will know the exact figure). This way, he can get the offensive benefit of Furious Counterstrike round after round, without need for (much, if any) healing. FC helps off-set the lost attack bonus to a degree, and Stone Power leaves the enemy in a cycle of futility trying to harm you. So it's more controlled than some preventative measure, and i think you're discounting it when you call it a trap. |
| #9innabinderDec 03, 2009 10:44:11 | Note that if you're in a ToB campaign that does go to 20, multiclassing is often recommended to 'fix' the maneuver/stance chart. |
| #10aelryinthDec 03, 2009 19:58:15 | Oops, yeah, it's the Diamond Mind Saves, missed that. If he gets a useful stance, sure, use it. But the Adept classes are specifically designed to do away with 'feats' (manuvers) you don't need and replace them with ones you do. This way all your manuvers are still viable. THe DM is basically saddling you with useless skills if you don't allow this...and it allows your character to automatically advance and 'retrain' over levels, and adjust to fit the campaign. The ability to upgrade manuvers is the mechanical equivalent of getting the entire Spec Tree of feats for the cost of one feat....just upgrade it as you go along. Stone Power helps a low level character live, sure...but it crushes their offensive power. Enemies don't reward defense, they die to offense. The crusader is actually LEAST effective when not attacked...they NEED counterstrike to equal other classes, and their strikes are the worst of the classes. A smart enemy is just going to leave them for last....that's a very bad technical way to play a class. Statistically, you're largely better off grabbing expertise if you want better tanking. You're absolutely right about mobile melee for the Adept classes. It's why a simple ability to make full attacks on the move should be a class ability for all melees. Its so freaking BASIC. IL for using feats to gain manuvers is based on full IL, so a Martial Study White Raven manuver would be at your full class IL. If you're talking cross-class levels between Warblade and Crusader, yeah, the other class is considered 1/2 for determining your full IL. Sorry bout that mix up. ==Aelryinth |
| #11streamoftheskyDec 03, 2009 23:35:57 |
It isn't binary. You can require a player to keep a set of maneuvers/stances such that he actually qualifies for the ones he has without leaving him unable to upgrade at all. Not until level 9 maneuvers do any require 5, and even then only a few do (Stone Dragon's level 9 even requires none!). Up until then, most mid/high level maneuvers only require 0-3 others known. Having a single low level prereq-free manuever is often enough to get to the better ones. It's not much of a sacrafice. Especially since you can't ready all your known maneuvers anyway. Also, since you really don't get many swap outs during the low to mid levels that most people play at (not until level 4, then every even level), you're probably going to still have some level 1-2 maneuvers around ECL 10 either way. Stone Power helps a low level character live, sure...but it crushes their offensive power. Enemies don't reward defense, they die to offense. The crusader is actually LEAST effective when not attacked...they NEED counterstrike to equal other classes, and their strikes are the worst of the classes. A smart enemy is just going to leave them for last....that's a very bad technical way to play a class. Statistically, you're largely better off grabbing expertise if you want better tanking. It's a few points penalty on a charcter with full BAB that's generally only ever attacking with his primary attack modifier anyway, it's hardly crushing! Crusaders have decent strikes, Stone Dragon's mountain hammer series is reliable, good damage. It's only so for a few levels, but at Crusader 7, that level 4 Devoted Spirit strike for +8d8 damage is by leaps and bounds better than anything the other adepts are doing at that point. Perhaps not for a little while, but eventually the Crusader will be locking enemies down with Thicket of Blades + Stand Still, so it desn't really matter if the enemy wants to go after someone else. At earlier levels, there's at least Iron Guard's Glare stance and the Shield Block maneuver, if you want to make it harder on enemies who ignore you. You're absolutely right about mobile melee for the Adept classes. It's why a simple ability to make full attacks on the move should be a class ability for all melees. Its so freaking BASIC. I disagree. IL for using feats to gain manuvers is based on full IL, so a Martial Study White Raven manuver would be at your full class IL. If you're talking cross-class levels between Warblade and Crusader, yeah, the other class is considered 1/2 for determining your full IL. Sorry bout that mix up. There was no mix up, don't worry. I wasn't aware the feat text was written as you say, I'll have to check it out later. I was disputing your interpretation of the feat. Myself, and every DM I've played with, have always enforced half IL if taking maneuvers from disciplines not available to your adept class. Even if the RAW is as you say, I would houserule it out, that seems overpowered. |
| #12aelryinthDec 05, 2009 10:07:37 | As long as you admit what you are doing with the swap out and the IL is a house rule, all's well. It's just not the way the game works. The inability to upgrade feats, and the odious pre-reqs of feats, are two of the major features that hit the Fighter class. For instance, do you really need Cleave when you have Great Cleave? No. It's now a useless feat, you've basically spent two feat slots on one feat. Manuvers are designed to be additive replacements, not cumulative. The spec tree is WF+WS+GWF, etc, for three feats = +2/+2. As Manuvers, they'd instead be wf= +1, WS = +1/+2, GWF = +2/+2....non-cumlative, each feat replaces the one below it. The lower level feats become irrelevant and can be used for something else. That's how manuvers are designed. Once you have Great Cleave, you should be able to use that Cleave slot for something else. The manuver rules were written to allow you to do that. Once you qualify, you don't need to use the lesser manuver and can fill that slot with something better. If you don't allow that, what you get is a character with a bunch of low level manuvers not appropriate for his level, instead of those that have a decent amount of higher-level manuvers. The fact you can't prepare all of them at one time is a smokescreen. You only get 13 of them as a Warblade at level 20...you want those 13 to be as strong as possible! Usng Martial Study to gain a manuver is exactly the same as getting a magic item to provide the manuver...class basis has nothing to do with it, you KNOW it, and you choose your class to base it on. I'm suprised you support the huge damage strikes as SA, and not full attacks. The Nightmare Blade series is basically nothing more then a Full Attack as a single Strike...more effective, since there's no lessening of BAB. ==== The Crusader's big dmg strike is alignment based...nice, but hardly universally effective. It's like a Paladin's smite that way. The Stone Dragon strikes limit you to being on the ground (which Stone power does, as well). This is a massive strike against your mobility, especially as you level. It's also why they are so easy to obtain. Note that Counterstrike provides both TH AND Dmg. It's akin to a Barbarian's rage. Without it, the Crusader is definitely a second string fighter. That's why it's better to ignore the Crusader...save him till last and swarm him. he can't hurt you nearly as bad unless you are beating on him. And if he's bothering to use Stone Power, then he's just shafting himself for a defense you aren't worrying about. Shield Block has it's own problems...namely, the person you are blocking for has to be right next to you. The Glare only works if you threaten the enemy...which, unless they are locked, is dependent on the enemy, not upon you. == If you read this all as saying I'm not a fan of the Crusader, you are right. It's a very strong defensive class for a tank, but meh. Unlike football, in D@D, you win with offensive potential, and the Crusader kind of lacks there. ===Aelryinth |
| #13streamoftheskyDec 05, 2009 22:40:28 | First of all, while many of the best of the Crusader's strikes are alignment based, the level 4 Divine Surge is not. It's just straight +8d8 pain to all. For a fair number of levels, it is the Crusader's best strike, and possibly the best of all the adepts at levels 7-10. I know those are houserules (still shocked the Martial Study feat was worded so poorly, I really don't think they intended to give full IL just for being an adept, oh well). But I just cannot support retraining rules (which is basically what mauever swapping is) which completely mess up build consistency. You should not be able to, via leveling up from 1 to 15, for example, have Pouncing CHarge maneuver but nothing else at all from Tiger Claw. If you were starting at level 15 and tried to list that as one of your maneuvers w/o other TC, the DM would say no. And when you broke out your flow chart to show how over the course of your character's backstory, he learned and dropped the pre-req maneuvers...I'd hope he'd laugh at you. And then say no. You use the example of feats that literally overlap/replace other feats that are pre-reqs. But that is not always the case. Cleave requires Power Attack. They aren't much alike. If you want to say "Power Attack actually remains useful, though"...how about Steadfast Determination (PH2)? It requires toughness. Toughness definitely becomes nigh-worthless as you level. Would you let a player retrain it out, and yet retain Steadfast Determination? Like I was saying with the "table with no legs," such abnormalities caused by too-free retraining rules are just extremely disturbing to me, and I think many others. And you're too harsh on the Crusader. Alignment-based strikes are no good, the entire Stone Dragon school is no good because it forces you to stay on the ground...That's eliminating ~60% or more of a Crusader's strikes already, and at least 3/4 of the ones that actually do respectable damage for their level. If the Crusader goes lockdown, and fights enlarged with a spiked chain, he can control a larger area than a fireball's blast. Not every melee class has to fight like a barbarian (the bes defense is a strong offense). The Crusader can pin down foes in place quite nicely for the party casters/ranged attackers. And any imbalance in available strikes compared to the other adepts is at least partly made up for by the fact a Crusader can be using a strike maneuver every round, while the other guys have to take a round not fighting (Swordsage w/ or w/o Adaptive Style) or making regular attacks (Warblade) every so often. |
| #14aelryinthDec 06, 2009 12:04:54 | Oh, I'm aware of the benefits of a Lockdown build. I built the iconic one on these boards. Prefer Glaive over spiked chains, backed up by IUS or SHort Haft, tho. Less cheesy. One good strike averaging +36 dmg, 1/4-5 rounds. Meh. That is one good strike, I will grant you, for the level. THe strikes of the other schools tend to replace Full Attacks with SA's. Manuvers are not feats. Power Attack is useful and stands on its own merits. Like the level 2 Diamond Mind save feats, it's something you can keep your whole career, and not WANT to swap out. However, if you want to, why can't you? The Steadfast Determination question is moot. Of course I'd let them drop Toughness. Steadfast Determination is a great feat no one uses because you need to waste three? feats to get it. With auto retraining, it takes ONE...and you can actually throw out Toughness for, say, Improved Toughness, which scales by level! Having only one good move from another school makes perfect sense to me. It's no different then a mage having only one spell from Evocation...and they don't need lower level spells to qualify, now, do they? You train enough in that school to learn what you want, and you keep using it, while letting the other stuff that isn't so great slide into disuse for better forms. It's actually how competent warriors work. I mean, why would I want to focus on some Tiger form dealing 12d6 dmg when I could get rid of it for a Nightmare blade doing 4x normal damage? It doesn't mean I'm giving up on the 9th level strike...it means I've no use for weak stuff with my limited arsenal. So, no, your DM better not laugh at you. You're doing exactly what the rules say. And if you think that ends up with too powerful a character, you really haven't taken a hard look at what spellcasters can do, have you? I'll reiterate that some low level manuvers are like low level feats...you'll keep them forever. But being forced to waste precious slots on useless feats? How would you like it if your wizard and cleric had to devote spell slots to all the cure spells in order to cast Heal? Have 5 lower level charm spells in memory in order to dominate Person? That's basically what you're trying to force on the Nine Swords classes...and the whole purpose of the builds were to level the playing ground between melee and mages, not keep forcing them into the restrictions of being bound by feat pre-reqs. ==Aelryinth |