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Crusader Tank/Melee Build?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Edit
Jul 01, 2013 1:24:42 Long story short, I'm playing as a Human Crusader in my current group and I originally planned to just be hack'n'slash but I quickly noticed I was good at tanking...and no one else in the party could really tank, either.

So! Here I am, I need help figuring out how to build my crusader in a way that's still tanky...but still outputs solid damage (Since i'm also do more damage than most in my group atm)

My current stats are
18 Str
14 Dex
16 Con
13 Int
13 Wis
14 Cha
(Our Dm gave us a "Buffed" standard array to make things easier)

Feats: Stone Power, Extra Granted Maneuver

I started off at level 1 but after a very long and challenging side quest, we bumped up to level 3 and I have no idea what to chose next for feats and such so any kind of advice would be great.

Side note: I was suggested a RKV build by a friend but I felt like it may make things too easy or worse, anger my dm, So I'd prefer to avoid it.
#2
Andarious-Rosethorn
Jul 01, 2013 1:53:56 Crusader 20's actually really solid. Feats and Maneuver choices are going to be the major deciding factor for you. Another option, if you'd like one that's pretty good at improving your damage capabilities and that of your team if you've got any other melee/missile weapon users is to go Song of the White Raven Crusader by taking a 3 or 4 level Bard dip. Song of the White Raven, and Song of the Heart (ECS) are the feats that you'll want, Badge of Valour (MIC) will work with your Swift Inspire happening to be followed immediately by activating the Badge. It is Swift action hungry so your counters will unfortunately suffer. A Vest of Legends (MIC) won't go amis as it treats you as a Bard 5 levels higher than normal for Inspire Courage which is a +1 to IC bonus's 5/6 levels.

You'll be able to use a Shield and not care too much about lost damage if gaining a lot of damage from your strikes, however if you get your hands on Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) then you'll also be an effective two weapon fighter when a Full Attack is your best option. Both Inspire Courage and Furious Counterstrike will do wonders for your attack and damage. You'll want to get Improved Shield Bash and if your Dex goes up later Two Weapon Fighting (which makes the gloves act as I-TWF). A Harmonizing Weapon (MIC) is never bad with an IC build either.

So, in summary.

Classes to Consider
Bard 3 or 4*
MOAR Crusader

Feats to get
Improved Shield Bash
Two Weapon Fighting
Song of the White Raven*
Song of the Heart*

Gear to get/look for
Gloves of the Balanced Hand
Shield with Bashing Enchantment
Badge of Valour*
Vest of Legends*

*If you're going to go the Bard dip rout. Very fun IMO but not everyones cup of tea.
#3
Edit
Jul 01, 2013 13:45:09 Hmm, I'm not sure the bardic Route would be work taking, since I don't have enough melee in my group to really make it worth it.

Also, I like the shiled idea but I'd have to waste alot of feats making it decent, would give me a -4 on my attacks (and I already have enough problems hitting) and it'd take a full action to attack with both.
#4
VorpalBunny
Jul 01, 2013 17:49:16 Also, what do you mean by "Tank" I'm to going to refer you this post by Tempest_Stormwind.

Crusaders are natural tanks, the do AoO tanking ESPECIALLY well, generally by taking Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, and the Crusader Stance (Island of Blades, right?) combined with some sort of reach weapon.

The Bard route makes you a Buffer/Healer/Gish type, which can be great, but might not work as a "tank"

Hope that helps.

VB
#5
draco1119
Jul 01, 2013 18:27:33 The D&D "Tank" is not "a ****ton of hit points & draws aggro", because there really aren't that many way to combine the two. The D&D tank is more about controlling the battlefield and hindering the opponents' movement and actions, usually know as "Lockdown". The best ways to do that are Reach and Crusader - unfortunately, some of the best crusader maneuvers & stances require with "adjacent" or "threatens you", which don't go well with Reach. Another problem with Crusader is that, as RadicalTaoist puts it, "The crusader stance progression would make the Baby Jesus cry." So: you need crusader maneuvers & stances, you need reach & close-in, and you need as many attacks as possible - you need feats, meaning you need fighter levels.
Here's the problem, though: the best time to take Crusader 1 is at 5th level, and you REALLY don't want Crusader 2 until 8th level. The first isn't too big a deal, though, so I would recommend asking your DM if you can swap out levels 2 & 3 for fighter levels. If you can, go Crusader 1/Fighter 6/Crusader +13. Your first 8 levels would look something like this (I'm afb, so ignoring maneuvers):

1) Crusader 1 (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip*)
2) Fighter 1 (Combat Reflexes)
3) Fighter 2 (Stand Still, Power Attack*)
4) Fighter 3
5) Fighter 4 (Imp. Bull Rush*)
6) Fighter 5 (Shock Trooper)
7) Fighter 6 (Exotic Weapon Proficency (Spiked Chain))
8) Crusader 2 (Thicket of Blades is your chosen stance at this level)

You'll want to charge, due to Shock Trooper's allowing you to replace the to-hit penalty with an AC penalty.
#6
aelryinth
Jul 01, 2013 20:39:10 Edit,

There is a Crusader Lockdown build mentioned in the builds in the sig-link below. Probably will give you most of what you want.

Tanking in 3.5 is accomplished by not letting the enemy ignore you or avoid you. The best way to do it is to lock him in place. Thicket of Blades is the stance that lets you do that. Then, you merely have to get to enough damage doing Stand Still that there's no way he can save against it.

The Lockdown build does it by getting double damage on attacks at high level. You ARE going to need a high damage base to make it work, because you can't really mix tons of AoO's and martial strikes.

Oh, and Crusaders almost universally grab 2 levels of another class before reaching the level where they get their second stance, all so they can get there level 3 stances immediately. Although I believe it was mentioned by the author of the book that the early stance gifting was an error.

==Aelryinth
#7
Tempest_Stormwind
Jul 01, 2013 23:23:27 You've got the basics for a low-level survival crusader. (I've occasionally seen people use Vital Recovery in place of one of those feats, with the intention of picking up the feat it replaced at 3rd and retraining Vital Recovery as the hit points grow, but that's a style of play that doesn't suit everyone. It was most significantly used by CO legend Tleilaxu Ghola on his "Reports from the Trenches" crusader, as I recall, but that appears to have been eaten.)

However, as has been noted, survivability does not a tank define. In this case, a heavily-armored foe that will take a long time to kill sends one message to any intelligent foe: Ignore me. The trick is to make that choice impossible or at the very least severely penalized. The usual way of doing this is to either play with AoOs or dish out instant-kill-grade damage (typically done through charging, though martial adepts focusing on maneuvers can keep pace most of the time) - and a rare few builds can do both competently without seriously gimping the character.

You're at the point where you can choose to specialize in one of those - pure crusaders can't do both due to their few feat slots. Draco shows how to pull off a "basic" charger with the fundamentals of AoO control; Andarious' Heavy Crusader build in my signature shows how to do the damage with a Crusader 20 (albeit without the area control). The link in Vorpal Bunny's post should give you all the advice you need on AoOs; the trick is figuring out how to time them alongside your maneuvers.
#8
Tempest_Stormwind
Jul 02, 2013 12:17:52 I feel I need to elaborate, as CJ's got completely valid points, but as usual they're buried under several layers of abrasive condescension.
Oh, boy, this crap again? There's no such thing as a tank. There's really no way to effectively lock someone down without being a caster, and drawing aggro is a joke.

As he's saying, basically, as levels increase, your opponents' options increase far faster. At the lower levels before things bring that much magic to the table, knocking things over with a big stick is quite effective. However, it's not hard to get magic or cheap equipment that allows some form of evasion, preventing you from responding. (There is an arms-race component on melee as well, but 1) getting the required feats costs a number of feat slots, which come online far slower than the rate at which opponents get new spells or gear, and 2) there are still things that melee can't respond to no matter which feats you use (i.e. if you have a swift or immediate-action teleport on a magic item, there's no feat that will allow an AoO to block that (there is for spells, but I believe it's from Dragon Magazine.)) And then once the levels continue into the double digits, the contingencies break out, and the game begins to fall apart.
Crusaders are great at a lot of things, but past level 8 at the latest, their AoO builds, what everyone here is going to suggest, is trash at best. Enemies will have ways of negating or just ignoring you without any difficulty, not to mention the fact that you won't be able to trip almost all enemies that are theoretically vulnerable to you, due to the ludicrous difference in bonuses.

Again, this is wise, but it can be a bit more constructive with an example.

Basically, it's not hard to get Thicket of Blades and Combat Reflexes by IL 5 (ideally level 5, but the crusader stance timing sucks). It's also not hard to get the ubercharge feats online by around level 6 or so. You can combine them if you've got some finesse, acting as a charging missile most of the time with the capability of locking down foes when you can, and so long as you don't overinvest in that secondary lockdown, you'll be fine. However, I've noticed a trend in that when people attempt to do this sort of thing, they pick the ubercharge feats (Shock Trooper + multiplier effects like Pounce or Leap Attack, or Headlong Rush if it's available) first. Really, they should be picking them second. At the lower levels, AoO tanking is more significant, and your maneuvers can dish out enough damage on their own as enemy HP hasn't climbed too high yet. At the mid levels, you're losing AoO effectiveness (or at least its universality - it will still remain effective against many monsters, but humanoid opponents and especially humanoid casters can evade it without too much difficulty), and should probably transition into charging then (particularly because you'll need to get serious damage boosts online before level 14 to keep pace with enemy HP increases).

Should you invest in AoO locks? I certainly think so - but don't overspend. Beyond the ubiquitous Power Attack, you really only need one or two feats (Combat Reflexes and optionally Stand Still - note that Combat Reflexes can be obtained from the Serpent Armor's effect (MIC)) and one stance (Thicket) to be reasonably competent in this area - and by the time you can afford to excel in it, enemies can flat-out evade it. It helps that the feat investments you throw here can be made to support you in other areas.

As a crusader, you can pick up one or two AoO-based maneuvers (i.e. Defensive Rebuke) and then concentrate on damage output (i.e. White Raven (uber)charges, Divine Surge, the occasional Mountain Hammer maneuver) and some of the things they do uniquely well (i.e. White Raven Tactics). These are picked to support the playstyles you're looking towards.

You want to be in melee? Cool. Go warblade, gish, or charger. Personally, I really like PsyWar, but Warblades are legit and there's a reason the class is called the Ruby Knight Windicator. Idiot Crusaders are also awesome, but they play much more like Warblades than Crusaders, so I lumped them in with Warblades.

This only needs a glossary.

"Gish" = fighter-mage. There's a lot of them out there. He mentions psychic warriors and cleric/crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator as good examples; others include Charisma-based sorcerer/paladin/[lots of prestige classes] builds. These typically grab spells that help themselves become war machines on the battlefield while still (occasionally) having spell options to contribute with the big boys' game of higher-level magic play.
"Idiot Crusader" = a crusader / Martial PrC that has at least as many maneuvers granted as he has maneuvers known. This causes his crusader maneuvers to refresh every round, in effect making all of them once per round instead of once per encounter. I don't know of a good way to do this that doesn't involve Master of Nine, though - while that leads to some dramatically awesome maneuver combinations, it's also expensive to get into and somewhat of a late-game option.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Edit Jul 01, 2013 1:24:42	Long story short, I'm playing as a Human Crusader in my current group and I originally planned to just be hack'n'slash but I quickly noticed I was good at tanking...and no one else in the party could really tank, either. So! Here I am, I need help figuring out how to build my crusader in a way that's still tanky...but still outputs solid damage (Since i'm also do more damage than most in my group atm) My current stats are 18 Str 14 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha (Our Dm gave us a "Buffed" standard array to make things easier) Feats: Stone Power, Extra Granted Maneuver I started off at level 1 but after a very long and challenging side quest, we bumped up to level 3 and I have no idea what to chose next for feats and such so any kind of advice would be great. Side note: I was suggested a RKV build by a friend but I felt like it may make things too easy or worse, anger my dm, So I'd prefer to avoid it.
#2 Andarious-Rosethorn Jul 01, 2013 1:53:56	Crusader 20's actually really solid. Feats and Maneuver choices are going to be the major deciding factor for you. Another option, if you'd like one that's pretty good at improving your damage capabilities and that of your team if you've got any other melee/missile weapon users is to go Song of the White Raven Crusader by taking a 3 or 4 level Bard dip. Song of the White Raven, and Song of the Heart (ECS) are the feats that you'll want, Badge of Valour (MIC) will work with your Swift Inspire happening to be followed immediately by activating the Badge. It is Swift action hungry so your counters will unfortunately suffer. A Vest of Legends (MIC) won't go amis as it treats you as a Bard 5 levels higher than normal for Inspire Courage which is a +1 to IC bonus's 5/6 levels. You'll be able to use a Shield and not care too much about lost damage if gaining a lot of damage from your strikes, however if you get your hands on Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) then you'll also be an effective two weapon fighter when a Full Attack is your best option. Both Inspire Courage and Furious Counterstrike will do wonders for your attack and damage. You'll want to get Improved Shield Bash and if your Dex goes up later Two Weapon Fighting (which makes the gloves act as I-TWF). A Harmonizing Weapon (MIC) is never bad with an IC build either. So, in summary. Classes to Consider Bard 3 or 4* MOAR Crusader Feats to get Improved Shield Bash Two Weapon Fighting Song of the White Raven* Song of the Heart* Gear to get/look for Gloves of the Balanced Hand Shield with Bashing Enchantment Badge of Valour* Vest of Legends* *If you're going to go the Bard dip rout. Very fun IMO but not everyones cup of tea.
#3 Edit Jul 01, 2013 13:45:09	Hmm, I'm not sure the bardic Route would be work taking, since I don't have enough melee in my group to really make it worth it. Also, I like the shiled idea but I'd have to waste alot of feats making it decent, would give me a -4 on my attacks (and I already have enough problems hitting) and it'd take a full action to attack with both.
#4 VorpalBunny Jul 01, 2013 17:49:16	Also, what do you mean by "Tank" I'm to going to refer you this post by Tempest_Stormwind. Crusaders are natural tanks, the do AoO tanking ESPECIALLY well, generally by taking Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, and the Crusader Stance (Island of Blades, right?) combined with some sort of reach weapon. The Bard route makes you a Buffer/Healer/Gish type, which can be great, but might not work as a "tank" Hope that helps. VB
#5 draco1119 Jul 01, 2013 18:27:33	The D&D "Tank" is not "a ***ton of hit points & draws aggro", because there really aren't that many way to combine the two. The D&D tank is more about controlling the battlefield and hindering the opponents' movement and actions, usually know as "Lockdown". The best ways to do that are Reach and Crusader - unfortunately, some of the best crusader maneuvers & stances require with "adjacent" or "threatens you", which don't go well with Reach. Another problem with Crusader is that, as RadicalTaoist puts it, "The crusader stance progression would make the Baby Jesus cry." So: you need crusader maneuvers & stances, you need reach & close-in, and you need as many attacks as possible - you need feats, meaning you need fighter levels. Here's the problem, though: the best time to take Crusader 1 is at 5th level, and you REALLY don't want Crusader 2 until 8th level. The first isn't too big a deal, though, so I would recommend asking your DM if you can swap out levels 2 & 3 for fighter levels. If you can, go Crusader 1/Fighter 6/Crusader +13. Your first 8 levels would look something like this (I'm afb, so ignoring maneuvers): 1) Crusader 1 (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip) 2) Fighter 1 (Combat Reflexes) 3) Fighter 2 (Stand Still, Power Attack) 4) Fighter 3 5) Fighter 4 (Imp. Bull Rush) 6) Fighter 5 (Shock Trooper) 7) Fighter 6 (Exotic Weapon Proficency (Spiked Chain)) 8) Crusader 2 (Thicket of Blades is your chosen stance at this level) You'll want to charge, due to Shock Trooper's allowing you to replace the to-hit penalty with an AC penalty.
#6 aelryinth Jul 01, 2013 20:39:10	Edit, There is a Crusader Lockdown build mentioned in the builds in the sig-link below. Probably will give you most of what you want. Tanking in 3.5 is accomplished by not letting the enemy ignore you or avoid you. The best way to do it is to lock him in place. Thicket of Blades is the stance that lets you do that. Then, you merely have to get to enough damage doing Stand Still that there's no way he can save against it. The Lockdown build does it by getting double damage on attacks at high level. You ARE going to need a high damage base to make it work, because you can't really mix tons of AoO's and martial strikes. Oh, and Crusaders almost universally grab 2 levels of another class before reaching the level where they get their second stance, all so they can get there level 3 stances immediately. Although I believe it was mentioned by the author of the book that the early stance gifting was an error. ==Aelryinth
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 01, 2013 23:23:27	You've got the basics for a low-level survival crusader. (I've occasionally seen people use Vital Recovery in place of one of those feats, with the intention of picking up the feat it replaced at 3rd and retraining Vital Recovery as the hit points grow, but that's a style of play that doesn't suit everyone. It was most significantly used by CO legend Tleilaxu Ghola on his "Reports from the Trenches" crusader, as I recall, but that appears to have been eaten.) However, as has been noted, survivability does not a tank define. In this case, a heavily-armored foe that will take a long time to kill sends one message to any intelligent foe: Ignore me. The trick is to make that choice impossible or at the very least severely penalized. The usual way of doing this is to either play with AoOs or dish out instant-kill-grade damage (typically done through charging, though martial adepts focusing on maneuvers can keep pace most of the time) - and a rare few builds can do both competently without seriously gimping the character. You're at the point where you can choose to specialize in one of those - pure crusaders can't do both due to their few feat slots. Draco shows how to pull off a "basic" charger with the fundamentals of AoO control; Andarious' Heavy Crusader build in my signature shows how to do the damage with a Crusader 20 (albeit without the area control). The link in Vorpal Bunny's post should give you all the advice you need on AoOs; the trick is figuring out how to time them alongside your maneuvers.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 02, 2013 12:17:52	I feel I need to elaborate, as CJ's got completely valid points, but as usual they're buried under several layers of abrasive condescension. Oh, boy, this crap again? There's no such thing as a tank. There's really no way to effectively lock someone down without being a caster, and drawing aggro is a joke. As he's saying, basically, as levels increase, your opponents' options increase far faster. At the lower levels before things bring that much magic to the table, knocking things over with a big stick is quite effective. However, it's not hard to get magic or cheap equipment that allows some form of evasion, preventing you from responding. (There is an arms-race component on melee as well, but 1) getting the required feats costs a number of feat slots, which come online far slower than the rate at which opponents get new spells or gear, and 2) there are still things that melee can't respond to no matter which feats you use (i.e. if you have a swift or immediate-action teleport on a magic item, there's no feat that will allow an AoO to block that (there is for spells, but I believe it's from Dragon Magazine.)) And then once the levels continue into the double digits, the contingencies break out, and the game begins to fall apart. Crusaders are great at a lot of things, but past level 8 at the latest, their AoO builds, what everyone here is going to suggest, is trash at best. Enemies will have ways of negating or just ignoring you without any difficulty, not to mention the fact that you won't be able to trip almost all enemies that are theoretically vulnerable to you, due to the ludicrous difference in bonuses. Again, this is wise, but it can be a bit more constructive with an example. Basically, it's not hard to get Thicket of Blades and Combat Reflexes by IL 5 (ideally level 5, but the crusader stance timing sucks). It's also not hard to get the ubercharge feats online by around level 6 or so. You can combine them if you've got some finesse, acting as a charging missile most of the time with the capability of locking down foes when you can, and so long as you don't overinvest in that secondary lockdown, you'll be fine. However, I've noticed a trend in that when people attempt to do this sort of thing, they pick the ubercharge feats (Shock Trooper + multiplier effects like Pounce or Leap Attack, or Headlong Rush if it's available) first. Really, they should be picking them second. At the lower levels, AoO tanking is more significant, and your maneuvers can dish out enough damage on their own as enemy HP hasn't climbed too high yet. At the mid levels, you're losing AoO effectiveness (or at least its universality - it will still remain effective against many monsters, but humanoid opponents and especially humanoid casters can evade it without too much difficulty), and should probably transition into charging then (particularly because you'll need to get serious damage boosts online before level 14 to keep pace with enemy HP increases). Should you invest in AoO locks? I certainly think so - but don't overspend. Beyond the ubiquitous Power Attack, you really only need one or two feats (Combat Reflexes and optionally Stand Still - note that Combat Reflexes can be obtained from the Serpent Armor's effect (MIC)) and one stance (Thicket) to be reasonably competent in this area - and by the time you can afford to excel in it, enemies can flat-out evade it. It helps that the feat investments you throw here can be made to support you in other areas. As a crusader, you can pick up one or two AoO-based maneuvers (i.e. Defensive Rebuke) and then concentrate on damage output (i.e. White Raven (uber)charges, Divine Surge, the occasional Mountain Hammer maneuver) and some of the things they do uniquely well (i.e. White Raven Tactics). These are picked to support the playstyles you're looking towards. You want to be in melee? Cool. Go warblade, gish, or charger. Personally, I really like PsyWar, but Warblades are legit and there's a reason the class is called the Ruby Knight Windicator. Idiot Crusaders are also awesome, but they play much more like Warblades than Crusaders, so I lumped them in with Warblades. This only needs a glossary. "Gish" = fighter-mage. There's a lot of them out there. He mentions psychic warriors and cleric/crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator as good examples; others include Charisma-based sorcerer/paladin/[lots of prestige classes] builds. These typically grab spells that help themselves become war machines on the battlefield while still (occasionally) having spell options to contribute with the big boys' game of higher-level magic play. "Idiot Crusader" = a crusader / Martial PrC that has at least as many maneuvers granted as he has maneuvers known. This causes his crusader maneuvers to refresh every round, in effect making all of them once per round instead of once per encounter. I don't know of a good way to do this that doesn't involve Master of Nine, though - while that leads to some dramatically awesome maneuver combinations, it's also expensive to get into and somewhat of a late-game option.