Crusader/Eternal Blade - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Crusader/Eternal Blade

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
starless
Apr 07, 2008 19:43:31 I've been reading the forums for a few days now, digesting every Crusader, Eternal Blade, and general ToB thread I can find, and I'm still kind of stuck.

I'm playing an elven Crusader in an upcoming campaign and will be going for Eternal Blade, largely for story reasons, though I really do think the class is cool. The DM is using multiclassing penalties (which means I won't be able to use the tasty Warblade 2 dip). There are a couple nice things, though. The DM's elves get +2 DEX with no minuses (he's using Tolkein elves as a model and didn't want them being frail), and I also get Weapon Familiarity with the elven courtblade, lightblade, and thinblade. In the end I'm probably going to use a Spiked Chain or Glaive anyway (I'd prefer the former because of some backstory bits). (I know his world has them, but I'm not sure if they'll be feasible for my character's continent).

The reason I'm having trouble, though, is because I'm going to have to also act as the group's main source of melee damage, while at the same time tanking. Thankfully, it looks as though our spellcaster (using some Chaos Mage from a third party book) will be doing a lot of battlefield control, so he'll be able to back me up there.

Flaws are allowed, and right now I have one (Shaky). I'd like two, but I'm sort of at a loss as to which one to take (Inattentive is bad, due to needing to be on watch).

This is the preliminary build I'm looking at, assuming I figure out a second flaw somewhere down the line. One thing I'm having trouble with is that I need the Weapon Focus feat for Eternal Blade, which is kind of hamstringing me out of a feat slot that would otherwise let me have both Power Attack and Stone Power.

Books Allowed
Pretty much all of the "core D&D products" are available. Some setting specific material's allowed, but none of us have any Eberron books, which leaves mostly Forgotten Realms. The DM's pretty open in general with material, so if I can get my hands on it, there's a good chance he'll allow it.

Stats
Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 8. I've been toying with the idea of swapping Strength and Dexterity, to allow for Weapon Finesse and more AOO's, but since I also want damage, I figured Strength worked better as the focus here.

Feats
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver
3: Power Attack or Stone Power
6: Stand Still
9: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
12: Robilar's Gambit
15: Defensive Sweep
18: Overwhelming Assault

Maneuvers and stances will be standard fare (healing strikes, Thicket of Blades, White Raven Tactics, etc.). One nice thing about Eternal Blade is getting a stance at 15th, which opens up Immortal Fortitude without a feat. Obviously I'll take some Diamond Mind maneuvers to open up Time Stands Still for Eternal Training.

One great boon in this department is that the DM is allowing me to switch maneuvers on the even levels of Eternal Blade, which is going to give me a lot more freedom there.

I realize there's nothing extraordinary here (it's a pretty standard Crusader build), but I'm worried about the damage dealing capabilities of this. The only Crusader experience I've had was from a friend (who's playing the Chaos Mage) playing a sword+board Crusader in a game I ran, and that's not much help here.

Do those more familiar with the Crusader think the AOO generation will be enough to sustain regular damage? Should I step back on the battlefield control bits a little to allow more room for feats? And any ideas on a good flaw to take other than Inattentive?
#2
stickboy2323
Apr 07, 2008 19:58:04 I have a build that I worked up that is very similar to this. The flaws I took in the build are Inattentive & Unreactive. The RP reasons behind this decision was that before the blade guide starts to fully manifest it is still there whispering in the back of the character's mind causing him to always be somewhat distracted. You may want to focus a bit more on BFC since maneuvers are usually a good way to take care of the damage dealing aspect of the character OR you could say "bah" to the whole BFC side (leave it to the mage) and use your extra feats to grab some martial study: diamond mind maneuvers (moment of perfect mind & action before thought will help you a lot).
#3
bozwevial
Apr 07, 2008 20:06:41 Hmm. Vulnerable is a pretty easy flaw to mitigate, and you probably won't notice the difference between the two Armor Classes (seriously, a penalty of one is trivial-dice rolling pretty much negates it anyway).

If you're using a spiked chain, ever thought about Improved Trip? It's not original, but it's quite effective. With Thicket of Blades, Robilar, and Combat Reflexes, you'd make a nice battlefield controller.

Should you not be able to nab PA or SP, get an Eternal Wand of Heroics (Spell Compendium) and give it to the party mage. Use it to grant you the feat you wanted in situations where it's going to matter, but if you can find a good flaw, it's not going to matter. Should you have the cash to spare on it, though, remember: Martial Study is a fighter bonus feat.

AoO damage is nice, and it can total up if your enemies aren't careful. Crusaders are better than average at dealing damage, and with healing strikes, you'll be hard to take down, letting you and the party whittle down the enemy.
#4
davethemagicweasel
Apr 07, 2008 20:14:52 Looks pretty decent. I'm guessing from the looks of that build you don't need pointing to the guide :p

I think in order to maxmize the AoOs what you're gonna need is some bonus damage. Furious Counterstrike is nice, but you'll want more. Investing in a good weapon is probably the best idea (Weapon of Legacy maybe? Stack damage boosting bonuses on a +1 weapon, then get a party caster to Greater Magic Weapon on it each morning). Guided Strike also helps - at high levels its de facto bonus damage coz DR becomes so common (can save you a fortune in enhancements and special materials too, to spend on other damage boosters), if you use Guided Strike on the same round you activate Robilar's each AoO is going to hurt hard.

Also, maneuver granting items for some damage boosters maybe (Diamond Mind for prereqs in particular makes sense - novice item for Emerald Razor is cheap and gives you a good wallop in your arsenal)? A couple of good strikes (e.g. Divine Surge) help for Crackdown as well.

Overall, I think you'll deal enough damage.

For the 18th level feat I'd be inclined to go with Martial Study. That way you can have both Strike of Righteous Vitality and Time Stands Still as maneuvers known cycling through. And then you've got Eternal Training to recover either in a pinch (i.e. low on hp and really need a SoRV).

What level are you starting at? If reasonably high I'm not sure I'd bother with Stone Power. And I'd wield a glaive instead of the chain (armour spikes, or a Fanged Ring, and 5 ft. steps cover you really). That can potentially open up a couple of feats. Knowledge Devotion for later use with Eternal Knowledge could be fun.
#5
starless
Apr 07, 2008 20:20:24 Huh. I typed up a bit about wanting Combat Expertise+Improved Trip but then it looks like I deleted it. The long and the short of it is that I'd like to fit it in there, but I'm not sure where I'd find the space.

I'm considering dropping Stand Still and, I suppose, Power Attack to get Improved Trip. The DM's generally proven to be a fan of humanoid encounters, and when he's not, things like the Mountain Hammers will do plenty to keep the monsters on me, since the DM tends to carefully consider who's keeping our enemies angry when it comes to targets, so I may not need Stand Still to get by.

That's probably my best general option if I stick with the spiked chain, though I'm going to miss Power Attack if I go that route. Hmph. I'm not sure I'll be able to explain armor spikes for this guy, at least not early on (because he's coming from poverty and using old familial weaponry--the spiked chain's from the shadar-kai that killed his family though), but I suppose spiked gauntlets might be a possibility to use with a guisarme. I don't like polearms as a matter of personal taste, but I might get used to it.

Edit: Looks like I got ninja'd a bit here.

I shouldn't have any trouble getting both Strike of Righteous Vitality and Time Stands Still since I'll be able to swap maneuvers on even levels all the way through the PrC (I love the DM for that one), so I won't need to worry about taking Martial Study for either one. That'll be nice if we get that far.

And on that subject, we're starting at level 1. It is looking like dropping the Spiked Chain's going to be the best way to free up some feats. I prefer glaives to guisarmes looks-wise, so perhaps I'll stick with Stand Still. That gives me an extra feat for Stone Power or Power Attack, at least...
#6
starless
Apr 07, 2008 22:25:20 I just found out I'm probably going to have a little bit of support on the melee side of things, which means I can go straight battlefield control and pepper damage around with my strikes as appropriate.

So I think I'm going to go this route instead. Do you think Combat Reflexes is the best 1st-level choice, or would it be better to push that off until 6th in favor of getting Improved Trip earlier? Right now I think I like it best this way though.

1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver
3: Combat Expertise
6: Improved Trip
9: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
12: Robilar's Gambit
15: Defensive Sweep
18: Overwhelming Assault

I think I'm going to stick with the chain. The guy's village got overrun by shadar-kai and I had it in my head he took one of their weapons. Plus, I prefer not to have to switch between weapons if I can manage that. Plus, two of the characters are going to be pretty unoptimized (their players aren't that great at the mechanical side of things), so if I'm down a feat compared to the guisarme version, I don't think it'll kill me. As is this build's gonna be pretty strong, I think.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 starless Apr 07, 2008 19:43:31	I've been reading the forums for a few days now, digesting every Crusader, Eternal Blade, and general ToB thread I can find, and I'm still kind of stuck. I'm playing an elven Crusader in an upcoming campaign and will be going for Eternal Blade, largely for story reasons, though I really do think the class is cool. The DM is using multiclassing penalties (which means I won't be able to use the tasty Warblade 2 dip). There are a couple nice things, though. The DM's elves get +2 DEX with no minuses (he's using Tolkein elves as a model and didn't want them being frail), and I also get Weapon Familiarity with the elven courtblade, lightblade, and thinblade. In the end I'm probably going to use a Spiked Chain or Glaive anyway (I'd prefer the former because of some backstory bits). (I know his world has them, but I'm not sure if they'll be feasible for my character's continent). The reason I'm having trouble, though, is because I'm going to have to also act as the group's main source of melee damage, while at the same time tanking. Thankfully, it looks as though our spellcaster (using some Chaos Mage from a third party book) will be doing a lot of battlefield control, so he'll be able to back me up there. Flaws are allowed, and right now I have one (Shaky). I'd like two, but I'm sort of at a loss as to which one to take (Inattentive is bad, due to needing to be on watch). This is the preliminary build I'm looking at, assuming I figure out a second flaw somewhere down the line. One thing I'm having trouble with is that I need the Weapon Focus feat for Eternal Blade, which is kind of hamstringing me out of a feat slot that would otherwise let me have both Power Attack and Stone Power. Books Allowed Pretty much all of the "core D&D products" are available. Some setting specific material's allowed, but none of us have any Eberron books, which leaves mostly Forgotten Realms. The DM's pretty open in general with material, so if I can get my hands on it, there's a good chance he'll allow it. Stats Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 8. I've been toying with the idea of swapping Strength and Dexterity, to allow for Weapon Finesse and more AOO's, but since I also want damage, I figured Strength worked better as the focus here. Feats 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver 3: Power Attack or Stone Power 6: Stand Still 9: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) 12: Robilar's Gambit 15: Defensive Sweep 18: Overwhelming Assault Maneuvers and stances will be standard fare (healing strikes, Thicket of Blades, White Raven Tactics, etc.). One nice thing about Eternal Blade is getting a stance at 15th, which opens up Immortal Fortitude without a feat. Obviously I'll take some Diamond Mind maneuvers to open up Time Stands Still for Eternal Training. One great boon in this department is that the DM is allowing me to switch maneuvers on the even levels of Eternal Blade, which is going to give me a lot more freedom there. I realize there's nothing extraordinary here (it's a pretty standard Crusader build), but I'm worried about the damage dealing capabilities of this. The only Crusader experience I've had was from a friend (who's playing the Chaos Mage) playing a sword+board Crusader in a game I ran, and that's not much help here. Do those more familiar with the Crusader think the AOO generation will be enough to sustain regular damage? Should I step back on the battlefield control bits a little to allow more room for feats? And any ideas on a good flaw to take other than Inattentive?
#2 stickboy2323 Apr 07, 2008 19:58:04	I have a build that I worked up that is very similar to this. The flaws I took in the build are Inattentive & Unreactive. The RP reasons behind this decision was that before the blade guide starts to fully manifest it is still there whispering in the back of the character's mind causing him to always be somewhat distracted. You may want to focus a bit more on BFC since maneuvers are usually a good way to take care of the damage dealing aspect of the character OR you could say "bah" to the whole BFC side (leave it to the mage) and use your extra feats to grab some martial study: diamond mind maneuvers (moment of perfect mind & action before thought will help you a lot).
#3 bozwevial Apr 07, 2008 20:06:41	Hmm. Vulnerable is a pretty easy flaw to mitigate, and you probably won't notice the difference between the two Armor Classes (seriously, a penalty of one is trivial-dice rolling pretty much negates it anyway). If you're using a spiked chain, ever thought about Improved Trip? It's not original, but it's quite effective. With Thicket of Blades, Robilar, and Combat Reflexes, you'd make a nice battlefield controller. Should you not be able to nab PA or SP, get an Eternal Wand of Heroics (Spell Compendium) and give it to the party mage. Use it to grant you the feat you wanted in situations where it's going to matter, but if you can find a good flaw, it's not going to matter. Should you have the cash to spare on it, though, remember: Martial Study is a fighter bonus feat. AoO damage is nice, and it can total up if your enemies aren't careful. Crusaders are better than average at dealing damage, and with healing strikes, you'll be hard to take down, letting you and the party whittle down the enemy.
#4 davethemagicweasel Apr 07, 2008 20:14:52	Looks pretty decent. I'm guessing from the looks of that build you don't need pointing to the guide :p I think in order to maxmize the AoOs what you're gonna need is some bonus damage. Furious Counterstrike is nice, but you'll want more. Investing in a good weapon is probably the best idea (Weapon of Legacy maybe? Stack damage boosting bonuses on a +1 weapon, then get a party caster to Greater Magic Weapon on it each morning). Guided Strike also helps - at high levels its de facto bonus damage coz DR becomes so common (can save you a fortune in enhancements and special materials too, to spend on other damage boosters), if you use Guided Strike on the same round you activate Robilar's each AoO is going to hurt hard. Also, maneuver granting items for some damage boosters maybe (Diamond Mind for prereqs in particular makes sense - novice item for Emerald Razor is cheap and gives you a good wallop in your arsenal)? A couple of good strikes (e.g. Divine Surge) help for Crackdown as well. Overall, I think you'll deal enough damage. For the 18th level feat I'd be inclined to go with Martial Study. That way you can have both Strike of Righteous Vitality and Time Stands Still as maneuvers known cycling through. And then you've got Eternal Training to recover either in a pinch (i.e. low on hp and really need a SoRV). What level are you starting at? If reasonably high I'm not sure I'd bother with Stone Power. And I'd wield a glaive instead of the chain (armour spikes, or a Fanged Ring, and 5 ft. steps cover you really). That can potentially open up a couple of feats. Knowledge Devotion for later use with Eternal Knowledge could be fun.
#5 starless Apr 07, 2008 20:20:24	Huh. I typed up a bit about wanting Combat Expertise+Improved Trip but then it looks like I deleted it. The long and the short of it is that I'd like to fit it in there, but I'm not sure where I'd find the space. I'm considering dropping Stand Still and, I suppose, Power Attack to get Improved Trip. The DM's generally proven to be a fan of humanoid encounters, and when he's not, things like the Mountain Hammers will do plenty to keep the monsters on me, since the DM tends to carefully consider who's keeping our enemies angry when it comes to targets, so I may not need Stand Still to get by. That's probably my best general option if I stick with the spiked chain, though I'm going to miss Power Attack if I go that route. Hmph. I'm not sure I'll be able to explain armor spikes for this guy, at least not early on (because he's coming from poverty and using old familial weaponry--the spiked chain's from the shadar-kai that killed his family though), but I suppose spiked gauntlets might be a possibility to use with a guisarme. I don't like polearms as a matter of personal taste, but I might get used to it. Edit: Looks like I got ninja'd a bit here. I shouldn't have any trouble getting both Strike of Righteous Vitality and Time Stands Still since I'll be able to swap maneuvers on even levels all the way through the PrC (I love the DM for that one), so I won't need to worry about taking Martial Study for either one. That'll be nice if we get that far. And on that subject, we're starting at level 1. It is looking like dropping the Spiked Chain's going to be the best way to free up some feats. I prefer glaives to guisarmes looks-wise, so perhaps I'll stick with Stand Still. That gives me an extra feat for Stone Power or Power Attack, at least...
#6 starless Apr 07, 2008 22:25:20	I just found out I'm probably going to have a little bit of support on the melee side of things, which means I can go straight battlefield control and pepper damage around with my strikes as appropriate. So I think I'm going to go this route instead. Do you think Combat Reflexes is the best 1st-level choice, or would it be better to push that off until 6th in favor of getting Improved Trip earlier? Right now I think I like it best this way though. 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver 3: Combat Expertise 6: Improved Trip 9: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) 12: Robilar's Gambit 15: Defensive Sweep 18: Overwhelming Assault I think I'm going to stick with the chain. The guy's village got overrun by shadar-kai and I had it in my head he took one of their weapons. Plus, I prefer not to have to switch between weapons if I can manage that. Plus, two of the characters are going to be pretty unoptimized (their players aren't that great at the mechanical side of things), so if I'm down a feat compared to the guisarme version, I don't think it'll kill me. As is this build's gonna be pretty strong, I think.