D&D 3.5 Rogue, trying to abuse the sneak attack. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

D&D 3.5 Rogue, trying to abuse the sneak attack.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
cerezoss
May 03, 2012 14:15:35 I'm terribly new to the D&D scene, and I've been crazed about looking for way to pump my character up to size.
This isn't something I have discussed with my DM yet, but regardless I wanted a little discussion on this.

I'm utilising Complete adventurer and Complete scoundrel as main components.

Setup:
Rogue 15, Thief-Acrobat 5
Primary and off-hand weapon:
Crescent Knife
1d4, make two attack rolls on a single attack.

Primary Skill trick:
Mosquito bite - all attacks with a light weapon go unnoticed by the foe

Feats:
Two weapon fighting - for wielding two weapons and getting an extra attack with offhand
Weapon finesse - more accurate hits
Combat expertise (defensive fighting) - more armor class and Deadly defense combo
Deft Strike - use a standard action spot to ignore natural and worn armor
Deadly Defensive fighting - when fighting defensively or using combat expertise with at least a -2 to attack, gain an extra 1d6 on a damage roll

Primary attack: Sneak 8d6

I came to this formula
Main hand: 3 attacks, Off hand: 2 attacks, Combat expertise activated on at least -2, deft strike activated and catching a foe off guard, dual crescent knives that double the attack rolls.
Mosquito Bite skill trick enables a sneak attack without it being noticed?

Sneak base = 8d6 per attack + 1d6 Deadly defense x 5 for Mosquito Bite = 45d6 with double rolls on both crescent knives give a whopping 90d6 total.

As a sneak attack, you're aiming at a flat-footed person, with Deft strike, you ignore all armor, so you always oppose a mere 10AC on a succesfull DC spot check.

Your combined attack with 22 dex (+6) (taking a dex bump on every 4th level)=
Base = 11/6/1 for rogue +3 for thief acrobat so 14/6/1
+6 for weapon finesse, -2 for combat expertise, -2 on off and main for two weapon fight.
So total accumulated attack: Main-hand: +16/+8/+3 off-hand: +2/+2
This VS 10 armor class gives at least half a decent chance to hit at least 3 out of 5 sneak attacks, still dishing out 54d6 total damage with crescent knives.

Would your DM allow this? Would you allow this?
Keep in mind that my character uses close to no magic, unless being buffed by other party members.

Also, how could I further complement this build, also counting in magic items?
#2
deoxhydroxinate
May 03, 2012 15:00:33 At work, so can't fully go in depth, but if you're doing sneak attack you're forgetting one major feat:
Craven.

It adds 1 damage (per character level, so at 20th, +20) to all attacks that are sneak attacks. It scales as you level, making it (IMO) almost a required feat.
#3
Maat_Mons
May 03, 2012 15:52:40
Some comments:

A crescent knife deals 1d3 damage.

A skill trick can only be used once per encounter.

Deft strike requires a standard action to use, so you have to spend a round not attacking (except for attacks of opportunity) to gain its benefits the next round.

Deft strike only provides its benefits to the very next attack you make. The other 4 attacks you make that round gain no benefit.

Sneak attack can also be used against flanked opponents.

Your attack bonus, using the provided information, will be +16/+11/+6 with your main hand and +16/+11 with your off hand.

#4
Tempest_Stormwind
May 03, 2012 19:09:44 Seconding Maat's remarks, particularly regarding skill tricks and Deft Strike's effect. (Action types and use limits are important resources in D&D.) You've registered the basic principle of sneak attack - namely, bonus damage per attack combines really well with extra attacks - but there're some snags in how you pulled it off.

Additionally, it's unrealistic to consider AC 10 at level 20; the average AC is closer to 36 at that point and often much higher. A sneak attack could deal insta-kill damage and still be worthless if it can't hit. Your attack bonus really matters.

The best sneak-attacker I've ever been able to build is actually a swashbuckler, using Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) to qualify for Daring Outlaw. It got that powerful entirely because it had a high attack bonus - this was compared to actual monster benchmarks. (I.e. I figure out the chance for each attack to hit average monster AC, then compute average damage per hit, then multiply and add them up to get an expected damage result - this is much more involved than you need to get, just letting you know the lengths to which I went.)

Similarly, a good rule of thumb on bigger-damage-for-lower-attack is that +2 damage is roughly on par with +1 attack. (This varies a lot depending on the character and the opponent, but it's a rough balance.) So consider Deadly Defense - two feats invested in a character with no real bonus feats. It gives you -2 attack (or more) in exchange for +1d6 damage; a d6 averages 3.5 damage. -2 attack for less than +4 damage is not a good tradeoff, and it only gets worse if you use higher Combat Expertise.

If you want to do the "I attack a nil AC all the time" stunt, the usual way to do that is to use Wand Chambers (CAdv, I think) with wands of Wraithstrike (Spell Compendium) in your weapons. (The Rules Compendium clarified that using a wand of a swift-action spell is itself a swift action.) This is remarkably cheesy, though, to the point where Wraithstrike is one of the most frequently-banned spells in the game due to that trick. (Unjustly so in my opinion: many DMs ban it because they think high damage is the worst thing in the game. Meanwhile they tend to allow the Celerity spells, which break the action economy wide open, and actions are far more important than HP. But I digress.) To counter the lower AB if you don't want to use Wraithstrike, the usual trick is to use Swords of Subtlety (DMG) or weapons which mimic its enhancement; these grant a fat +4 bonus on attacks and damage rolls when used to make sneak attacks.
#5
deoxhydroxinate
May 03, 2012 21:02:37 Touching at what Tempest mentioned, Daring Outlaw is phenominal. Since all sneak attack damage is precision based anyway, being able to snag some levels of Swashbuckler to gain the Insightful Strike ability would tack on a huge amount of free damage.

I would also recommend weapons of subtlety. Easy to obtain and you won't have to hear the moans coming from your DM as you swift action Wraithstrike and open up a can of ridiculousness. Craven, again, is something you should stack on for free, additional precision damage.

Also, any item that you can get (or even have your party casters throw this out) that can force opponents to make balance checks (hello grease) makes for fun times with sneak attack.

Remember, sneak attacking isn't always about getting the person flat footed. Sometimes it's much easier to tumble and flank with a party member.
#6
cerezoss
May 06, 2012 8:10:48 Dang, thanks for all the input, being new at all of this jazz- I didn't realise at first how many things you need to take into account.
It's still all good fun, though the endless possibilities are sometimes really hard to overlook and consider.

Anyway, thanks for all the tips. :D
I have a whooooole lot more reading to do.
#7
aelryinth
May 06, 2012 17:13:20 Tempest, where's that thread where we were combining Sneak Attack damage against one another?

That should REALLY give him some ideas.

If he's going for higher Sneak Attack, that Moon? Guild fighter-type 1st level is +1d6 SA and +1 BAB...a perfect dip. Add in another PrC with Sneak attack and You're at 11d6 at 20. +1 level of Sneak attack fighter, maybe.

Add Assassin's Stance for +2d6...
Shadow Blade for Dex to damage...
Swash base with Daring Outlaw for Int to Damage..
Str to damage...
Craven...
And Short Swords of Subtlety are soooo nice.

And Power Attack just to add insult to injury.
truly, if your BAB is high enough the Deft Strike is just a useless trick...you'll hit on that first attack anyways.

You'll also have to acquire augment stones so you can SA creatures normally immune to such, too.

==Aelryinth
#8
Tempest_Stormwind
May 07, 2012 12:17:37
Tempest, where's that thread where we were combining Sneak Attack damage against one another?

That should REALLY give him some ideas.

...

==Aelryinth

Here's the thread, although it's kind of hard to follow, because we were churning out builds and revisions to builds so quickly we used jot notation.

As I recall, you tended to use straight-up fighter (since the discussion started with your claim that a high AB, TWF fighter didn't need more bonus damage than the fighter-exclusive feats to dish out comparable damage to sneak attackers) while I alternated between rogue and rogue/Nightsong Enforcer (to play around with different parameters on sneak attack TWFers). The eventual switch to Fighter or Swashbuckler using Assassin's Stance etc. was just trying to get the numbers obscenely higher.

The eventual 'best' winner wasn't decided because we disagree on how to apply Weapon Supremacy's once-per-round effects, but they actually worked out pretty similar (both in terms of damage effectiveness and build: TWF tree + (some Shadow Hand martial study; I think we usually used Cloak of Deception) + Assassin's Stance + Shadow Blade + Craven + Shadow Hand Short swords* of subtlety; the swashbuckler used Daring Outlaw while the fighter went up the Supremacy tree.). If you're playing from low levels, though, I think the swashbuckler would be more interesting due to its higher skill points lending it to be more useful in non-combat situations. (Doubly so if you use the Dead Levels article.)

*Well, there was this argument about using Sun Blades, specifically if you could simultaneously use them as bastard swords (non-Light weapons, to gain the full Power Attack bonus) and short swords (Light weapons, to avoid the worst TWF penalties), but I think I eventually conceded the point for the sake of argument.

The issue I'd take with this approach for a new player is that it's VERY immobile, highly reliant on full attacks and flanking to get its sneak attack damage output, and build-wise they rely on not making any mistakes (or having a forgiving DM with the retraining rules, which - as we've seen - isn't always a safe assumption because Fighters Can't Have Nice Things, y'know.). Using a martial adept is probably easier for a newer player (Diamond Mind / Iron Heart warblade has very much the same feel as a swashbuckler), but then again I usually find myself defaulting to that position.
#9
aelryinth
May 07, 2012 21:31:08 That was one of the reasons I preferred the fighter build. I think I still had some extra feats you could use for charging, it was much better on the single attack then your build at most levels.

But yeah, Sneak attack is incredibly dependent on getting off that full attack, and then hitting with all those attacks, AND the enemy being vulnerable to a sneak attack. If everything went well, we proved that we were fricassee machines. If it didn't...well, meh.

==Aelryinth
#10
deoxhydroxinate
May 07, 2012 22:18:48 Something just came to mind -

What if you used a pounce type character, met the pre-reqs for Revenant Blade and used the double bladed scimitar (TWF chain) with Power Attack and Sneak Attack?

#11
Tempest_Stormwind
May 07, 2012 22:39:59
Something just came to mind -

What if you used a pounce type character, met the pre-reqs for Revenant Blade and used the double bladed scimitar (TWF chain) with Power Attack and Sneak Attack?

Your Sneak Attack would almost certainly be a drop in the bucket compared to what the Revenant Blade can bring to the table. Remember that Sneak Attack doesn't multiply in the case of a critical hit.

(We play over OpenRPG, which allows text macros to be set for shortcuts - things like "punch" to roll unarmed attack and damage rolls together and stuff like that. I rigged it up so that our Revenant Blade can trigger his full attack in a number of different ways, including a hidden macro he hasn't noticed yet - "Glorious Chainsaw Method". It is an apt description of how that class works even without sneak attack.)

Basically, the only way to gain sneak attack without losing a lot of attack bonus - the key to TWFing and Power Attacking, two things the RB loves to death - is to use Assassin's Stance and then possibly Nightsong Enforcer. It's VERY hard to do this while still picking up all the requirements for Revenant Blade.

Still, there are ways to turn both archetypes into serious controllers as well as damage dealers. If you want the revenant blade to make some serious pain in the same vein as, say, Crippling Strike (the rogue ability), enchant both ends of the double scimitar with Dessicating Burst. (Why yes, I do feel like exhausting everything I crit against, thank you very much.) You can also turn the rogue into an action denial machine using Staggering Strike - save vs. the damage I just dealt you, or fight like a zombie next round. (We have a build in the Weekly Optimization Series I'll throw up later, the Staggerator, which is based around doing this consistently. A version of it even works on groups.)
#12
deoxhydroxinate
May 07, 2012 22:45:52 Tempest, get out of my head!

I wasn't thinking about actually using Sneak Attack damage but rather to forgo it and utilize the debilitating effects it could generate.

Though it would be incredibly hard to pull off, use this double weapon, add the whirling property (get some sort of reach) and stack on things like Disembowling Strike or Deafening Strike, add in the rogue's Crippling Strike...

#13
cerezoss
May 11, 2012 3:07:43 Well, I misinterpreted my DM, I am only allowed using the following 11 books:
Arms and Equipment
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Psionic
Complete Warrior
Player's Handbook
Player's Handbook II
Monster Manual (For Familiar / Companion reference)
Monster Manual II (Ditto)

So, I figured that I'll be using my flank ability more often than I'm doing now, so here's my plan so far:

Rolled stats: (roll 6 times for stats, using only 3 dice per throw, pick the best rolled set of throws for your character stats, you can also distribute 4 extra points to whatever stats you like or split them up to multiple stats)

Abilities:
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 18(+4 = 22)
Wis: 10
Cha: 16
Yes, I know, I had a lucky streak rolling this set.

Race: Human
Lv1 - Rogue1 : Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
Lv3 - Rogue3: Combat Reflexes
Lv5 - Rogue5
Lv6 - Fighter1: Vexing Flanker, Adaptable Flanker (We have a knight using reach and a psion with constructs in the party)
Lv7 - Fighter2: Two Weapon Fighting
Lv8 - Invisible BLade1
Lv9 - Invisible Blade2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain (Using a Small / Light chain in main hand if my DM allows it and a Dagger in the off-hand for flanked sneak attack)
Lv12 - Invisible Blade 5: Improved Trip (Obviously for chain) (At this point, my huge int will be a nice boost to AC)
Lv13 - Assassin1
Lv15 - Assassin3: Open
Lv18 - Assassin6: Open
Lv20 - Assassin8: (Also, hide in plain sight)

This allows me to keep 10d6 sneak attack, I forego improved evasion, makes me more proficient in tripping stuff and I get a nice BaB, reaching 17/12/7/2 on my main without feat and finesse modifier and 17/12 on my off-hand, which will be primarily used for flanking.

I think I might have a decent build here, just tell me what you guys think of it, or maybe have something to add?
#14
deoxhydroxinate
May 11, 2012 11:58:00 Conceptually, I really like the idea of a rogue who trips people then shanks them on the ground (I got a good chuckle after imagining it). Tripping, however, is really useful when you're able to gain size modifiers to give you a ridiculous boost and while it wouldn't be difficult to gain, the thought of a huge sized rogue trying to sneak in shadows is just hilarious.

Instead of using Rogue off the bat, what about Swashbuckler? With a couple levels you'll be able to get weapon finesse for free and you'll be able to pick up Martial Study/Stance and nab Assassin's Stance (getting you sneak attack and since it's a stance, it's technically always active until you change it as a swift action) to qualify for Daring Outlaw, letting your sneak attack continue to grow. Fighter 2 is always nice for feats, though you may not need them.

Invisible Blade is a very strong PrC and I personally find it very fun. Assassin (personally) I'm not too keen on, but it can be very useful.

I'd ask if Complete Scoundrel would be permitted (as it gives rogues some nice options). With that in mind, another idea is to utilize a lot of Rogue to gain some special abilities (Crippling Strike is probably my personal favorite, well, tied with Skill Mastery) and then pick up additional ambush feats. One of the better ones is Head Shot (you need weapon focus with a bludgeoning weapon *sigh*), but you forgo some of your sneak attack damage dice to confuse your target! Disembowling Strike (requires focus in slashing) allows you to forgo some sneak attack damage to deal 1d4 Con!

#15
aelryinth
May 11, 2012 22:03:46 You've got a 22 Int. You want 3 levels of Swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw. Get the Int to Damage with swashie weapons.

A level of monk and Carmedine Monk gives you Int to AC. The Invisible Blade PrC gives you Int to AC, masterful Feinting, and Sneak Attack damage...I really think you should look into it.

Leverage that high Int. Knowledge Devotion takes advantage of all your skill points, if you take Scholar to gain them all as class skills, to give you massive flat bonuses TH/DMG.

Yeah, Swashbuckler levels, Daring Outlaw, Invisible Blade levels, and Knowledge Devotion with the Scholar feat. Fill in with other classes as you like.

==Aelryinth

#16
cerezoss
May 14, 2012 12:54:16 Thanks for the input Aelryinth, but I'm not allowed to use complete champion.
I'll be looking into Shwashie + rogue, but basically i want to make this build all about helping my party members getting somewhere, so this doesn't need to become a 'one man army' build.
Basically, keeping myself into the spectrum of sneak attacks and flanking, I'd be a pretty useful battle buddy for any of out party members whom I can melee with.

I also have to discuss with my DM if I can use the Daring outlaw feat, being as it's in complete scoundrel, which I can't use, unfortunately.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cerezoss May 03, 2012 14:15:35	I'm terribly new to the D&D scene, and I've been crazed about looking for way to pump my character up to size. This isn't something I have discussed with my DM yet, but regardless I wanted a little discussion on this. I'm utilising Complete adventurer and Complete scoundrel as main components. Setup: Rogue 15, Thief-Acrobat 5 Primary and off-hand weapon: Crescent Knife 1d4, make two attack rolls on a single attack. Primary Skill trick: Mosquito bite - all attacks with a light weapon go unnoticed by the foe Feats: Two weapon fighting - for wielding two weapons and getting an extra attack with offhand Weapon finesse - more accurate hits Combat expertise (defensive fighting) - more armor class and Deadly defense combo Deft Strike - use a standard action spot to ignore natural and worn armor Deadly Defensive fighting - when fighting defensively or using combat expertise with at least a -2 to attack, gain an extra 1d6 on a damage roll Primary attack: Sneak 8d6 I came to this formula Main hand: 3 attacks, Off hand: 2 attacks, Combat expertise activated on at least -2, deft strike activated and catching a foe off guard, dual crescent knives that double the attack rolls. Mosquito Bite skill trick enables a sneak attack without it being noticed? Sneak base = 8d6 per attack + 1d6 Deadly defense x 5 for Mosquito Bite = 45d6 with double rolls on both crescent knives give a whopping 90d6 total. As a sneak attack, you're aiming at a flat-footed person, with Deft strike, you ignore all armor, so you always oppose a mere 10AC on a succesfull DC spot check. Your combined attack with 22 dex (+6) (taking a dex bump on every 4th level)= Base = 11/6/1 for rogue +3 for thief acrobat so 14/6/1 +6 for weapon finesse, -2 for combat expertise, -2 on off and main for two weapon fight. So total accumulated attack: Main-hand: +16/+8/+3 off-hand: +2/+2 This VS 10 armor class gives at least half a decent chance to hit at least 3 out of 5 sneak attacks, still dishing out 54d6 total damage with crescent knives. Would your DM allow this? Would you allow this? Keep in mind that my character uses close to no magic, unless being buffed by other party members. Also, how could I further complement this build, also counting in magic items?
#2 deoxhydroxinate May 03, 2012 15:00:33	At work, so can't fully go in depth, but if you're doing sneak attack you're forgetting one major feat: Craven. It adds 1 damage (per character level, so at 20th, +20) to all attacks that are sneak attacks. It scales as you level, making it (IMO) almost a required feat.
#3 Maat_Mons May 03, 2012 15:52:40	Some comments: A crescent knife deals 1d3 damage. A skill trick can only be used once per encounter. Deft strike requires a standard action to use, so you have to spend a round not attacking (except for attacks of opportunity) to gain its benefits the next round. Deft strike only provides its benefits to the very next attack you make. The other 4 attacks you make that round gain no benefit. Sneak attack can also be used against flanked opponents. Your attack bonus, using the provided information, will be +16/+11/+6 with your main hand and +16/+11 with your off hand.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind May 03, 2012 19:09:44	Seconding Maat's remarks, particularly regarding skill tricks and Deft Strike's effect. (Action types and use limits are important resources in D&D.) You've registered the basic principle of sneak attack - namely, bonus damage per attack combines really well with extra attacks - but there're some snags in how you pulled it off. Additionally, it's unrealistic to consider AC 10 at level 20; the average AC is closer to 36 at that point and often much higher. A sneak attack could deal insta-kill damage and still be worthless if it can't hit. Your attack bonus really matters. The best sneak-attacker I've ever been able to build is actually a swashbuckler, using Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) to qualify for Daring Outlaw. It got that powerful entirely because it had a high attack bonus - this was compared to actual monster benchmarks. (I.e. I figure out the chance for each attack to hit average monster AC, then compute average damage per hit, then multiply and add them up to get an expected damage result - this is much more involved than you need to get, just letting you know the lengths to which I went.) Similarly, a good rule of thumb on bigger-damage-for-lower-attack is that +2 damage is roughly on par with +1 attack. (This varies a lot depending on the character and the opponent, but it's a rough balance.) So consider Deadly Defense - two feats invested in a character with no real bonus feats. It gives you -2 attack (or more) in exchange for +1d6 damage; a d6 averages 3.5 damage. -2 attack for less than +4 damage is not a good tradeoff, and it only gets worse if you use higher Combat Expertise. If you want to do the "I attack a nil AC all the time" stunt, the usual way to do that is to use Wand Chambers (CAdv, I think) with wands of Wraithstrike (Spell Compendium) in your weapons. (The Rules Compendium clarified that using a wand of a swift-action spell is itself a swift action.) This is remarkably cheesy, though, to the point where Wraithstrike is one of the most frequently-banned spells in the game due to that trick. (Unjustly so in my opinion: many DMs ban it because they think high damage is the worst thing in the game. Meanwhile they tend to allow the Celerity spells, which break the action economy wide open, and actions are far more important than HP. But I digress.) To counter the lower AB if you don't want to use Wraithstrike, the usual trick is to use Swords of Subtlety (DMG) or weapons which mimic its enhancement; these grant a fat +4 bonus on attacks and damage rolls when used to make sneak attacks.
#5 deoxhydroxinate May 03, 2012 21:02:37	Touching at what Tempest mentioned, Daring Outlaw is phenominal. Since all sneak attack damage is precision based anyway, being able to snag some levels of Swashbuckler to gain the Insightful Strike ability would tack on a huge amount of free damage. I would also recommend weapons of subtlety. Easy to obtain and you won't have to hear the moans coming from your DM as you swift action Wraithstrike and open up a can of ridiculousness. Craven, again, is something you should stack on for free, additional precision damage. Also, any item that you can get (or even have your party casters throw this out) that can force opponents to make balance checks (hello grease) makes for fun times with sneak attack. Remember, sneak attacking isn't always about getting the person flat footed. Sometimes it's much easier to tumble and flank with a party member.
#6 cerezoss May 06, 2012 8:10:48	Dang, thanks for all the input, being new at all of this jazz- I didn't realise at first how many things you need to take into account. It's still all good fun, though the endless possibilities are sometimes really hard to overlook and consider. Anyway, thanks for all the tips. :D I have a whooooole lot more reading to do.
#7 aelryinth May 06, 2012 17:13:20	Tempest, where's that thread where we were combining Sneak Attack damage against one another? That should REALLY give him some ideas. If he's going for higher Sneak Attack, that Moon? Guild fighter-type 1st level is +1d6 SA and +1 BAB...a perfect dip. Add in another PrC with Sneak attack and You're at 11d6 at 20. +1 level of Sneak attack fighter, maybe. Add Assassin's Stance for +2d6... Shadow Blade for Dex to damage... Swash base with Daring Outlaw for Int to Damage.. Str to damage... Craven... And Short Swords of Subtlety are soooo nice. And Power Attack just to add insult to injury. truly, if your BAB is high enough the Deft Strike is just a useless trick...you'll hit on that first attack anyways. You'll also have to acquire augment stones so you can SA creatures normally immune to such, too. ==Aelryinth
#8 Tempest_Stormwind May 07, 2012 12:17:37	Tempest, where's that thread where we were combining Sneak Attack damage against one another? That should REALLY give him some ideas. ... ==Aelryinth Here's the thread, although it's kind of hard to follow, because we were churning out builds and revisions to builds so quickly we used jot notation. As I recall, you tended to use straight-up fighter (since the discussion started with your claim that a high AB, TWF fighter didn't need more bonus damage than the fighter-exclusive feats to dish out comparable damage to sneak attackers) while I alternated between rogue and rogue/Nightsong Enforcer (to play around with different parameters on sneak attack TWFers). The eventual switch to Fighter or Swashbuckler using Assassin's Stance etc. was just trying to get the numbers obscenely higher. The eventual 'best' winner wasn't decided because we disagree on how to apply Weapon Supremacy's once-per-round effects, but they actually worked out pretty similar (both in terms of damage effectiveness and build: TWF tree + (some Shadow Hand martial study; I think we usually used Cloak of Deception) + Assassin's Stance + Shadow Blade + Craven + Shadow Hand Short swords* of subtlety; the swashbuckler used Daring Outlaw while the fighter went up the Supremacy tree.). If you're playing from low levels, though, I think the swashbuckler would be more interesting due to its higher skill points lending it to be more useful in non-combat situations. (Doubly so if you use the Dead Levels article.) *Well, there was this argument about using Sun Blades, specifically if you could simultaneously use them as bastard swords (non-Light weapons, to gain the full Power Attack bonus) and short swords (Light weapons, to avoid the worst TWF penalties), but I think I eventually conceded the point for the sake of argument. The issue I'd take with this approach for a new player is that it's VERY immobile, highly reliant on full attacks and flanking to get its sneak attack damage output, and build-wise they rely on not making any mistakes (or having a forgiving DM with the retraining rules, which - as we've seen - isn't always a safe assumption because Fighters Can't Have Nice Things, y'know.). Using a martial adept is probably easier for a newer player (Diamond Mind / Iron Heart warblade has very much the same feel as a swashbuckler), but then again I usually find myself defaulting to that position.
#9 aelryinth May 07, 2012 21:31:08	That was one of the reasons I preferred the fighter build. I think I still had some extra feats you could use for charging, it was much better on the single attack then your build at most levels. But yeah, Sneak attack is incredibly dependent on getting off that full attack, and then hitting with all those attacks, AND the enemy being vulnerable to a sneak attack. If everything went well, we proved that we were fricassee machines. If it didn't...well, meh. ==Aelryinth
#10 deoxhydroxinate May 07, 2012 22:18:48	Something just came to mind - What if you used a pounce type character, met the pre-reqs for Revenant Blade and used the double bladed scimitar (TWF chain) with Power Attack and Sneak Attack?
#11 Tempest_Stormwind May 07, 2012 22:39:59	Something just came to mind - What if you used a pounce type character, met the pre-reqs for Revenant Blade and used the double bladed scimitar (TWF chain) with Power Attack and Sneak Attack? Your Sneak Attack would almost certainly be a drop in the bucket compared to what the Revenant Blade can bring to the table. Remember that Sneak Attack doesn't multiply in the case of a critical hit. (We play over OpenRPG, which allows text macros to be set for shortcuts - things like "punch" to roll unarmed attack and damage rolls together and stuff like that. I rigged it up so that our Revenant Blade can trigger his full attack in a number of different ways, including a hidden macro he hasn't noticed yet - "Glorious Chainsaw Method". It is an apt description of how that class works even without sneak attack.) Basically, the only way to gain sneak attack without losing a lot of attack bonus - the key to TWFing and Power Attacking, two things the RB loves to death - is to use Assassin's Stance and then possibly Nightsong Enforcer. It's VERY hard to do this while still picking up all the requirements for Revenant Blade. Still, there are ways to turn both archetypes into serious controllers as well as damage dealers. If you want the revenant blade to make some serious pain in the same vein as, say, Crippling Strike (the rogue ability), enchant both ends of the double scimitar with Dessicating Burst. (Why yes, I do feel like exhausting everything I crit against, thank you very much.) You can also turn the rogue into an action denial machine using Staggering Strike - save vs. the damage I just dealt you, or fight like a zombie next round. (We have a build in the Weekly Optimization Series I'll throw up later, the Staggerator, which is based around doing this consistently. A version of it even works on groups.)
#12 deoxhydroxinate May 07, 2012 22:45:52	Tempest, get out of my head! I wasn't thinking about actually using Sneak Attack damage but rather to forgo it and utilize the debilitating effects it could generate. Though it would be incredibly hard to pull off, use this double weapon, add the whirling property (get some sort of reach) and stack on things like Disembowling Strike or Deafening Strike, add in the rogue's Crippling Strike...
#13 cerezoss May 11, 2012 3:07:43	Well, I misinterpreted my DM, I am only allowed using the following 11 books: Arms and Equipment Complete Adventurer Complete Arcane Complete Divine Complete Psionic Complete Warrior Player's Handbook Player's Handbook II Monster Manual (For Familiar / Companion reference) Monster Manual II (Ditto) So, I figured that I'll be using my flank ability more often than I'm doing now, so here's my plan so far: Rolled stats: (roll 6 times for stats, using only 3 dice per throw, pick the best rolled set of throws for your character stats, you can also distribute 4 extra points to whatever stats you like or split them up to multiple stats) Abilities: Str: 14 Dex: 18 Con: 16 Int: 18(+4 = 22) Wis: 10 Cha: 16 Yes, I know, I had a lucky streak rolling this set. Race: Human Lv1 - Rogue1 : Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse Lv3 - Rogue3: Combat Reflexes Lv5 - Rogue5 Lv6 - Fighter1: Vexing Flanker, Adaptable Flanker (We have a knight using reach and a psion with constructs in the party) Lv7 - Fighter2: Two Weapon Fighting Lv8 - Invisible BLade1 Lv9 - Invisible Blade2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain (Using a Small / Light chain in main hand if my DM allows it and a Dagger in the off-hand for flanked sneak attack) Lv12 - Invisible Blade 5: Improved Trip (Obviously for chain) (At this point, my huge int will be a nice boost to AC) Lv13 - Assassin1 Lv15 - Assassin3: Open Lv18 - Assassin6: Open Lv20 - Assassin8: (Also, hide in plain sight) This allows me to keep 10d6 sneak attack, I forego improved evasion, makes me more proficient in tripping stuff and I get a nice BaB, reaching 17/12/7/2 on my main without feat and finesse modifier and 17/12 on my off-hand, which will be primarily used for flanking. I think I might have a decent build here, just tell me what you guys think of it, or maybe have something to add?
#14 deoxhydroxinate May 11, 2012 11:58:00	Conceptually, I really like the idea of a rogue who trips people then shanks them on the ground (I got a good chuckle after imagining it). Tripping, however, is really useful when you're able to gain size modifiers to give you a ridiculous boost and while it wouldn't be difficult to gain, the thought of a huge sized rogue trying to sneak in shadows is just hilarious. Instead of using Rogue off the bat, what about Swashbuckler? With a couple levels you'll be able to get weapon finesse for free and you'll be able to pick up Martial Study/Stance and nab Assassin's Stance (getting you sneak attack and since it's a stance, it's technically always active until you change it as a swift action) to qualify for Daring Outlaw, letting your sneak attack continue to grow. Fighter 2 is always nice for feats, though you may not need them. Invisible Blade is a very strong PrC and I personally find it very fun. Assassin (personally) I'm not too keen on, but it can be very useful. I'd ask if Complete Scoundrel would be permitted (as it gives rogues some nice options). With that in mind, another idea is to utilize a lot of Rogue to gain some special abilities (Crippling Strike is probably my personal favorite, well, tied with Skill Mastery) and then pick up additional ambush feats. One of the better ones is Head Shot (you need weapon focus with a bludgeoning weapon sigh), but you forgo some of your sneak attack damage dice to confuse your target! Disembowling Strike (requires focus in slashing) allows you to forgo some sneak attack damage to deal 1d4 Con!
#15 aelryinth May 11, 2012 22:03:46	You've got a 22 Int. You want 3 levels of Swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw. Get the Int to Damage with swashie weapons. A level of monk and Carmedine Monk gives you Int to AC. The Invisible Blade PrC gives you Int to AC, masterful Feinting, and Sneak Attack damage...I really think you should look into it. Leverage that high Int. Knowledge Devotion takes advantage of all your skill points, if you take Scholar to gain them all as class skills, to give you massive flat bonuses TH/DMG. Yeah, Swashbuckler levels, Daring Outlaw, Invisible Blade levels, and Knowledge Devotion with the Scholar feat. Fill in with other classes as you like. ==Aelryinth
#16 cerezoss May 14, 2012 12:54:16	Thanks for the input Aelryinth, but I'm not allowed to use complete champion. I'll be looking into Shwashie + rogue, but basically i want to make this build all about helping my party members getting somewhere, so this doesn't need to become a 'one man army' build. Basically, keeping myself into the spectrum of sneak attacks and flanking, I'd be a pretty useful battle buddy for any of out party members whom I can melee with. I also have to discuss with my DM if I can use the Daring outlaw feat, being as it's in complete scoundrel, which I can't use, unfortunately.