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| #1UnahimApr 22, 2012 17:16:48 | So I was looking into what character I could play next in case of character death(it's always good to be prepared), and I decided a Spiked Chain battlefield control/lockdown build would be kinda nice for a change. I'm using this thread as a resource: tinyurl.com/7jyp9fe I've just got 2 questions, really: 1) That thread references Knockdown a lot, claiming it was ported over to 3.5 and no-longer demigod only. However, I can't really find any publication which straight-up tells me taking Knockdown is ok. It's a pretty big element of the build over there, so I'd hate to lose it, but I doubt my DM will allow it if its origin is super-vague. Any help here? 2) What class choice do you think best? I'm currently undecided between Fighter and Warblade. I also considered taking 4 levels of fighter before 1 level of warblade, to be able to pick up a bunch of 2nd level maneuvers and a stance(the one that gives you a +4 on strength checks and such could end up being quite ruthless combined with improved trip and the like). What's your take on this? Thanks in advance! |
| #2draco1119Apr 22, 2012 17:38:58 | I've just got 2 questions, really: I'm AFB right now, but there are advantages and disadvantages to both options. The biggest advantage for the Fighter is getting more feats faster, though the PHB2 also has a 16th Fighter level ACF that is pretty spiffy. My personal favorite is the Fighter with a few levels of Crusader. Crusader gets Thicket of Blades, and, if you take four levels, you only lose two fighter feats - the same number it would take to get ToB (Martial Study, then Martial Stance). I don't know that Knockdown was ever made non-Divine, but I know that there's Knockback... |
| #3UnahimApr 22, 2012 17:49:51 | It's definitely knockdown they're referring to :p Anyway, what levels would you get the Crusader levels at? I mainly looked into Warblade, not Crusader, because our current party already has a Crusader in it, and I don't want to recycle too much. That said, we play over internet, and the DM finds the random maneuvre drawing of Crusaders to be too complicated, so they ready like Warblades instead. That's argueably a buff. |
| #4Tempest_StormwindApr 22, 2012 18:00:14 | So I was looking into what character I could play next in case of character death(it's always good to be prepared), and I decided a Spiked Chain battlefield control/lockdown build would be kinda nice for a change. I'm using this thread as a resource: tinyurl.com/7jyp9fe The origin of Knock-Down was Sword and Fist, the very first 3e book that clearly shows a lot of its authors weren't used to 3e rules yet. (For instance, the first ability of the first prestige class in its first printing said "Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty): The cavalier has this skill for free without having to purchase it with skill points." That's how nonweapon proficiencies worked in 2e, and the skill system is their successor.) The fact that it's set on a direct amount of damage and has no way of resisting the free effect - essentially creating something that will always trigger - shows this off. It was reprinted in Deities & Demigods, along with a small number of other feats (for mortals) which some of the gods just happened to have. It's not deific any more than Weapon Focus is. However, in 3.5, it was never reprinted - it shows up in the divine SRD because Deities & Demigods was mostly made OGL, and its 3e material became part of the SRD. Other elements that also showed up (as reprints from the original class guidebooks, such as Sword and Fist or Masters of the Wild) in Deities and Demigods were reprinted, usually with revisions, in the Complete series. Where such updates exist, the SRD replaced them with their updated rules. (For instance, Power Critical in Masters of the Wild let you declare an attack an automatic critical threat, while in Complete Warrior it was changed to a flat +4 on confirmation rolls.) Knock-Down was not treated to any such updating, perhaps because the feat itself is broken on its face. Thus it exists in limbo - a vestigal part of 3e that appears in an obscure corner of 3.5's SRD instead of in any printed 3.5 source. The closest feat to it thematically is Knockback, in Races of Stone. It takes a Large (or Medium with Powerful Build) creature to do it, has higher prerequisites, and works off of the Bull Rush mechanics rather than the Trip mechanics (which means it doesn't turn every attack you make into a potential action-denying attack). 2) What class choice do you think best? I'm currently undecided between Fighter and Warblade. I also considered taking 4 levels of fighter before 1 level of warblade, to be able to pick up a bunch of 2nd level maneuvers and a stance(the one that gives you a +4 on strength checks and such could end up being quite ruthless combined with improved trip and the like). What's your take on this? Note that you are fixed to taking a 1st level stance with your first martial adept level. It's a quirk in the rules, but it's an important one. The stance you're looking at is Stonefoot Stance, and that's only a +2 (at the cost of your mobility, but it's not a bad tradeoff as long as you don't have much else competing for your swift actions). Fighter 4 / Warblade 1 is a solid opening; another alternative is to just look at straight Crusader (rather than warblade or fighter) due to its ability to draw enemy attacks in on itself (Iron Guard's Glare at the lower levels, Thicket of Blades as soon as you can). You won't be able to get all the feats, but you can certainly get most of them. Warblade 1 only gives you three maneuvers and there's a lot of good 1st levels out there, though, so the delay may not be worth it. |
| #5Maat_MonsApr 22, 2012 18:20:05 | Barbarian 2, using the wolf totem variant (Unearthed Arcana) is nice for tripping. You get improved trip without needing combat expertise or int 13, and rage gives you an extra +2 on the str check. The extra rage feat (Complete Warrior) gives you 2 extra uses of rage per day, and is great for anyone taking just a level or two of barbarian. If you can use it, the exoticist variant fighter (Dragon 310, p35) can get you proficiency with the spiked chain without a feat in exchange for dropping martial weapon proficiency. Since you'll be multiclassing, not gaining martial weapon proficiency from fighter isn't a big deal. |
| #6draco1119Apr 22, 2012 18:38:45 | It's definitely knockdown they're referring to :p Anyway, what levels would you get the Crusader levels at? I mainly looked into Warblade, not Crusader, because our current party already has a Crusader in it, and I don't want to recycle too much. That said, we play over internet, and the DM finds the random maneuvre drawing of Crusaders to be too complicated, so they ready like Warblades instead. That's argueably a buff. The main reason for Crusader is actually the Thicket of Blades stance, not any maneuvers. Heck, if you only take 2 levels of Crusader, you only miss out on one feat, instead of the two you'd miss out on by not taking it at all. An interesting, though chintzy, possibility is something that Maat touched on: Barbarian 2 with the Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion Cheatyface AND the Wolf Totem variant in Unearthed Arcana. Technically legal, but... If you can get both Totem variants, I'd say go Brb2/Ftr6/Cru2/Ftr10. If not, take Ftr8/Cru2/Ftr10. If you take Crusader at character levels 9 & 10, you can get Thicket as your second stance. |
| #7UnahimApr 22, 2012 21:45:21 | All pretty good suggestions! I'll obviously have to look into it a bit more to see what option ends up suiting me best, but at least I know what to look for now ^^ My DM is not too bothered changing the rules a bit if they seem weird and cumbersome, so maybe I'll even be able to take a higher level satnce right away, we'll see. |
| #8The_FredApr 23, 2012 13:57:15 | ...the DM finds the random maneuvre drawing of Crusaders to be too complicated, so they ready like Warblades instead. That's argueably a buff. In many ways, the Crusader system is simpler. I think the best suggestion I've heard is to make a little deck of "cards" with the moves on them (or just use actual cards and write a key, I guess). Shuffle the cards and draw them for your manoevres. When you use one, you return it to the deck. Of course, this is probably not appropriate for playing over the internet; for that I guess you need a whole bunch of rolls. In terms of power, both have advantages - if you have a very small number of Crusader moves, and they're all great, then you're set because they just recharge themselves. However, you mightn't always have access to the one(s) you really want at any given point in time. With regards to Lion/Wolf Totem Barbarian, I personally wouldn't allow it, but if your DM will, I guess go for it. I find the CC Lion Totem pretty horrible, though - Fast Movement (that's what you swap out, right?) is already a nice boost. Getting Pounce for a single level is just... wrong. |
| #9Tempest_StormwindApr 23, 2012 15:14:20 | ...the DM finds the random maneuvre drawing of Crusaders to be too complicated, so they ready like Warblades instead. That's argueably a buff. Something like that is suggested in the tome itself - essentially shuffling the deck, dealing yourself cards when they're granted, and then either flipping them over or turning them sideways to note when you use them. At the end of your turn, draw another; if you can't, shuffle the deck and start again. Of course, this is probably not appropriate for playing over the internet; for that I guess you need a whole bunch of rolls. I play over the internet with crusaders as well. There's a few solutions for this, which vary depending on your client. (I use OpenRPG, and there's plugins for that which simulate decks of cards.) The simplest one I've seen, in terms of what it takes to implement, is to declare your readied maneuvers publicly, then roll a die: since you're on an electronic client, you can do impossible rolls like 1d5, so just set it to 1d(# of readied-but-not-granted maneuvers). The number you get is which one of the remaining maneuvers, alphabetically, is granted to you. Example: You have Charging Minotaur, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Stone Bones and Vanguard's Strike as maneuvers readied, in alphabetical order. You roll 1d5 and get a 2; you're granted Crusader's Strike. You then roll 1d4 and get a 3; you're granted the third, skipping Crusader's Strike, which is Stone Bones. Numerically this is identical to the deck-shuffling: rather than randomizing the order and drawing from a fixed place (the top), this fixes the order and randomizes the point you draw from. Furthermore, this takes no more time than simply typing, say, [1d5][1d4]; one of the advantages of online play is that die rolls tend to go quickly (especially if you're doing something like 24d6 or something). If you'd go to type 1d0, stop and start again. If you don't like alphabetical - say, you have some other system for tracking maneuvers, such as a checklist of when you learned them - just use that instead. Since the granting takes place at the end of your turn, it doesn't slow anything down. In terms of power, both have advantages - if you have a very small number of Crusader moves, and they're all great, then you're set because they just recharge themselves. However, you mightn't always have access to the one(s) you really want at any given point in time. I'd argue the crusader is stronger, actually - because you don't need to spend an action to recharge your maneuvers. There's also quite a lot of overlap between the disciplines - Vanguard Strike is Leading the Attack, Foehammer is Mountain Hammer, and so on - so that lets you "double up" on certain maneuvers to increase their frequency. Just grab Extra Granted Maneuver; it's one of the best feats a crusader can ever hope for. Also note that every time you pick up a new readied maneuver - including from a prestige class, check the book carefully - you also add a new granted maneuver. This means that you will always refresh every four rounds (three with EGM), regardless of your level. ...Unless you do something crazy with Master of Nine, that is. With regards to Lion/Wolf Totem Barbarian, I personally wouldn't allow it, but if your DM will, I guess go for it. I find the CC Lion Totem pretty horrible, though - Fast Movement (that's what you swap out, right?) is already a nice boost. Getting Pounce for a single level is just... wrong. I'm with you on the wrongness - there's a reason I call it Complete Champion Cheeseball. Although, recently, I spotted Draco referring to it as Complete Champion Cheatyface, which gets the point across just as well. There are a lot of ways to gain Pounce, but none of them are anywhere near as easy as that totem. Incidentally, Fast Movement isn't anywhere near as nice as Pounce except at the lowest of the low levels (when you can't make more than one attack), and you give nothing else up to get it. When discussing balance between mechanical elements, I usually use the expression "Taste the indescision? That's balance, right there." There's no indescision here - pounce is the clear victor. I mean, unless you're only playing level 1 games or something. But those are the same situations that make Toughness a good feat. (The actual justification given by, I believe, Monte Cook for why Toughness is the way it is was that it was designed for level 1 games - a first-level elf wizard could very easily double his hit points with that feat.) |
| #10UnahimApr 23, 2012 18:02:43 | Hmm, well, we use Fantasy Grounds for our games, which is an incredibly awesome system, but because of the way the modules work it can be a little inflexible in this regard. There are options for cards in it with the right plugins, but my DM just doesn't want to deal with them right now :p |
| #11ObsidianConspiracyApr 23, 2012 19:49:47 | You could cut a deal with the DM, maybe. Ask him if you can use the crusader with the warblade or swordsage granting/recovery mechanic... weakens the crusader, but for both of your purposes could be a valid option |