Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 skead Nov 15, 2008 14:35:47	The group I am in has LOTS of damage dealing classes and now officially a healer as well. So I was hoping to be a meat shield that excels in doing just that. I was thinking a Knight class from the PHII(?) because they can force enemies to focus them. My question in a nutshell is; Is the Knight class the best option for a grade A meat shield? (Don't care about damage output at all) How do you optimize for avoidance / mitigation (if any) via feats / armor? Just have access to core books and common extras (like PHII, Complete Warriors, etc), rolling for stats, starting at level 8. I believe starting gold is about 20,000 or so. I looked on google and in the FAQ and couldn't find a detailed one for the Knight class. Thank you
#2 mcpoyo Nov 15, 2008 14:56:00	How are you going to be an effective meatshield? What is going to be your "I force you to attack me" mechanic? Without high damage, especially in a high damage party, you're going to be pointless unless the DM is an idiot and ignores common sense.
#3 CantripN Nov 15, 2008 15:36:22	Look at the Maquar Crusader (Shining South) or a Crusader (Tome of Battle) if you can. The former is incredible (!) defending others, while the latter has quite a few defensive abilities and very good damage to boot. MQ is how a Knight should have been made. Knight 6 / Maquar Crusader 6 is a good start, or maybe use some Paladin...
#4 skead Nov 15, 2008 15:41:03	How are you going to be an effective meatshield? What is going to be your "I force you to attack me" mechanic? Without high damage, especially in a high damage party, you're going to be pointless unless the DM is an idiot and ignores common sense. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060523a The class gets Knight's Challenge where they can force enemies to "focus" them. They have an area of effect and single target version. This is obviously limited to higher CR rating enemies but those are the ones you want to focus you anyways. Or am I misunderstanding it?
#5 mcpoyo Nov 15, 2008 17:52:10	According to my printed copy of the various Knight's Challenge abilities: Fighting challenge just gives bonuses against the foe if they meet the prereqs. Test of Mettle works somewhat, but requires the creature have a language and an Int 5 of at least 5. It also requires a will save. It works, but with the limited duration and the fact that it can only effect them once in 24 hours, is kind of limited. Especially since there's no way to boost the DC except by leveling. It also means if you multiclass it's more or less useless after a bit. If anyone attacks an effected individual, it breaks the ToM on that individual. Congrats, you've now got an enemy who can attack/kill/whathaveyou the people who actually pose a threat to it. Conversely, you can have the party wait until you chip away the foes presented, hopefully killing them all within 5+ cha mod rounds. It works better than Goad, in that it's AoE, but it's still far from perfect. Outside that, though, there are better ways to function as a "meatshield" that draws attacks and damage via other classes, especially if you throw magic into the mix. I personally prefer Crusader, since it actually fills that role well, and doesn't require weird mechanics, saving throws, or situational reach modifiers to do it's job well.
#6 Endarire Nov 17, 2008 0:21:44	I agree on Crusader, but a Druid can also tank. A properly-built Druid can tank, heal, summon, and control crowds starting at level 6. Before that, you're a full caster who typically lets others tank.
#7 Diffan Nov 17, 2008 6:41:39	It's my personal opinion that the Knight really has about 4 good levels in it before one should multiclass. Multiclassing to a crusader is a good option because of it's ability to absorb damage and the use of stances/maneuvers can be useful in many situations. For feats, I like Stand Still (found in Psionics Handbook?) which gives you the ability to keep foes centered on you. If they provoke an AoO and you hit them with an attack, instead of doing damage, they remain in place. Another feat you might want to take is Ability Focus (test of mettle). It'll increase the DC of that ability which will help make your character "sticky" to your enemies. Anyways, hope some of this helps answer your questions and good luck.
#8 phaedrusxy Nov 17, 2008 12:03:02	Here is the only thread I have ever seen on here dedicated to optimizing the knight class: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-656414 (It was a pretty good one, so maybe another wasn't needed. :D)
#9 syrazemyla Nov 18, 2008 6:08:46	If you have Tome of Battle and still want to play a knight, I would try to somehow pick up the Setting Sun stance step of the wind. Basically, this gives you a +2 bonus to attack anything that was in your threatened squares when you started your turn when combined with the knight's difficult terrain ability. And since you're focusing on battlefield control, the things you want to hit should be starting in your terrain. Thicket of blades is even better, but it's harder to pick up.
#10 skead Nov 18, 2008 17:02:34	Thank you for your reponses. Based on what my DM has talked to me about he says in his world he will allow Knights Challenge work as a "taunt" due to some wording he feels leans it that way. I posted a new post about the money, stats, feats, I start with and if you have any suggestions on what I can take, please do say so Thank you for all your detailed responses so far on the issue.