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Dagger specialist help

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
menfir
Mar 12, 2008 14:21:13 hey all,

for the next campaign I'm in I want to roll a char who is all about daggers. he's going to be a scoundrell who bluffs, steals and cheats people.
but if he can't solve a situation with words he takes out his daggers and the menace begins.
If you're out of reach for melee he'll just throw a couple of his daggers and then moves into melee.
in melee he will feint and stab you hard.
if he gets cornered he will tumble out of danger.

this is how i basically see my char. there are still a lot of things i don't know yet
for example I'm not sure if i want to go into two weapon fighting.

now what I want for this char:
he knows all about daggers, he knows how to throw them and how to use them in melee. so for prestige classes I was thinking, invisible blade and master thrower.
im stuck with the starting class though. first I was thinking of starting of as a rogue for some sneak attack abilities, evasion and skills ofcours
but lately I'm thinking more of swashbuckler for better BaB and weaponfinesse as bonus feat since i'll probably take that feat anyways
what bothers me about rogue is that i don't get full BaB
what bothers me about swashbuckler is that i don't get the right skills like sneak and sleight of hand
or maybe i should just stack them with darring outlaw
he is also going to use feint a lot which he gets improvements on from invisible blade

I'm not an experienced player and i'm not looking for the uber build
I just want my char to be competent enough to hold himself in a battle with a pair(or more) of daggers.
so i need help in when to take levels in what class and what feats to take

u can make suggestions for two weapon fighting(which looks cool to me) or not
I'll probably go human for the extra feat and skillpoints because I think this build will require them

allmost everything is allowed(maybe even everything) but I need to quallify for the prestige classes. My DM lets me take a feat nescessary for a PrC when I first take a lvl in that class.

Hope you guys can give me some good ideas/builds.

thx in advance

now i want him to have full or near full BaB.
#2
carnivore
Mar 12, 2008 15:47:38 try this:

Rogue(feat variant) 2/ Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible blade 5/ Master thrower 5

use the Drow Sub level for Fighter... loose Heavy and Medium Armor proficiencies, and Tower Shields... Gain Dex to Damage vs Flatfooted within 30'

feats:
Carmondine monk(Champions of Valor)..... switches Monk Bonuses to AC from Wis to Int

:D
#3
menfir
Mar 12, 2008 16:44:47 thx I'll look into your suggestions
#4
pathanus
Mar 12, 2008 18:21:28 ToB Characters:
# Beshadowed Blade by Tleilaxu_Ghola
# Beshadowed Blade v2.0 by Gaffer

Focus on dagger TWF and Stormguard Warrior feat.
#5
jameswilliamogle
Mar 12, 2008 18:41:40 There's a lot of potential for weapons that do two types of damage, too. I'd suggest taking a gander at PHB2 and Complete Warrior to see if you can find something (likely you'd mix in Fighter levels for bonus feats, but more BAB is nice, too).

Slashing Flurry, for example, and Bear Fang and Crescent Moon, all add something (maybe not to your specific build, though).
#6
howland_reed
Mar 12, 2008 18:57:21 I'd dip 2 levels of swordsage, at least...nets you:

--Wep Focus in all Shadow Hand weapons (including daggers)
--1 1st lvl stance (I'd go Island of Blades)
--1 higher lvl stance, if you take your levels right (take Swordsage2 at 8th or higher) you can get Assassin's Stance, which is what I'd use (+2d6 sneak attack)
--7 maneuvers, total, including some really useful ones without prereqs, like Cloak of Deception or Mountain Hammer
--Spend a feat on Shadow Blade...that gives you Dex to damage (in addition to Str) when in shadow hand stance (like Assassin's) with a shadow hand weapon (like a dagger)

If you're planning to TWF (which it sounds like you are), you could also go a level or 2 of Bloodclaw Master...prereqs are easy to meet, and 2 lvls gets you full Str bonus on your off-hand attacks, no penalty for TWF with daggers, and a few other tricks.

Maybe something like...

Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Rogue +2/Invisible Blade 1/Master Thrower 1/Swordsage 2/Bloodclaw Master 2/ take the rest of your Invisible Blade & Master Thrower levels

You end up with +17 BAB, pretty good skills (5 levels of 6 or 8 skpts, 13 levels of 4 skpts, with good lists), fair HP (2d12+3d10+7d8+8d6), 5d6 sneak attack with your daggers (7d6 with assassin's stance, 8d6 if you want to burn a feat for Daring outlaw), TWF with no penalties and full Str bonus on off-hand, and you can add Str + Dex + Int to damage with your daggers.

Tweak as you like. If you don't have ToB, of course, this goes down the drain...
#7
menfir
Mar 14, 2008 6:04:04 hey all

thx for the great input

right now i have this for a build

1)rogue (1), feat 1st lvl: weapon focus dagger, feat human: two weapon fighting, SA +1D6, trapfinding
2)swashbuckler(1), weapon finesse
3)scout (1), feat 3de lvl:point blank shot, skirmish (1D6), trapfinding
4)scout (2), battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge
5)scout (3), fast movement, trackless step, skirmish (1D6, +1)
6)scout (4), feat 6de lvl far shot, feat scout 4: swift ambusher -> skirmish (2D6 +1)
7)invisible blade (1), +1D6, unfettered defense
8)invisible blade (2), bleeding wound
9)invisible blade (3), +2D6, uncanny feint(move), feat 9de: precise shot
10)invisible blade (4), feint mastery
11)invisible blade(5), +3D6, uncanny feint(free)
12)figther (1), feat fighter: dodge, feat lvl 12 mobility
13)fighter (2), feat figther: spring attack,
14)master thrower (1), quick draw, throw weapon trick
15)master thrower (2), evasion
16)master thrower (3), throw weapon trick
17)master thrower (4), snatch arrows
18)master thrower (5), throw weapon trick, critical throw,
19)
20)

as you can see two lvls are still blank, also I'm not sure about the lvls after invisible blade(I like the Idea of spring attack combined with the increased speed of scout and the feinting as a free action from inv blade though)
suggestions/improvements are very much welcome.

Is there a feat/anything available that lets me throw a dagger as a swift action?
if so at high lvl I would be able to move in, feint, sneak attack + skirmish, move out, throw a dagger at him with skirmish, which is a cool move(flavor wise).

all help very much appreciated
greetz
#8
howland_reed
Mar 15, 2008 20:27:45 If your Int is decent at all, you could take Swashbuckler 2 & 3 and get Insightful Strike (+Int to damage), which couldn't hurt.

I don't know of any feat that lets you throw a dagger as a swift action...but there's a feat from Player's Handbook II that lets you make 2 attacks during your spring attack, instead of just 1...that'd let you pull off the exact stunt you describe. I think it's called either Bounding Assault or Rapid Blitz.

You'd have to check for feat qualifications, but you might also try Dervish or Duelist for those last 2 levels. Or, failing everything else, just another 2 fighter levels to grab specialization.

Isn't there an Improved Skirmish feat, that increases your skirmish damage if you move further than 10 feet? That'd be nice. I think it's in Complete Scoundrel.

(I'm assuming Tome of Battle is out? Because if not--and I mean this in the nicest possible way--you're a fool if you don't go the Shadow Blade route. If so, oh well.)
#9
operation_shoestring
Mar 15, 2008 21:01:05
try this:

Rogue(feat variant) 2/ Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible blade 5/ Master thrower 5

use the Drow Sub level for Fighter... loose Heavy and Medium Armor proficiencies, and Tower Shields... Gain Dex to Damage vs Flatfooted within 30'

feats:
Carmondine monk(Champions of Valor)..... switches Monk Bonuses to AC from Wis to Int

:D

Don't you have to be a drow to use a drow Sub level?

And you forgot the riposite feat that makes IB's non-suck
#10
menfir
Mar 16, 2008 10:59:22 hey all

ToB is in(hehe)
after reading through it I redesigned my build to put in the shadow hand route and the bloodclaw master.
I have now this for a build:

rogue (1) two weapon fighting, point blank shot SA 1D6, trapfinding
swashbuckler (1) weapon finesse
swordsage (1) far shot weapon focus(dagger ...), quick to act +1
rogue (2) evasion
rogue (3) SA 2D6, trapsens +1
swashbuckler (2) darring outlaw S1 3D6, grace +1, dodge bonus +1
invisible blade (1) SA 4D6, unfettered defense
swordsage (2) ac bonus,
bloodclaw master(1) shadow blade shifting 1/day, claws of the beast
bloodclaw master(2) superior 2 weapon fighting, tyger claw synergy
invisible blade (2) bleeding wound
invisible blade (3) feats SA 5D6, uncanny feint (move)
invisible blade (4) feint mastery
invisible blade (5) SA 6D6, uncanny feint (free)

stances: probably child of shadows, and assassin's stance for sure.

lattely I'm doubting master thrower, flavor wise it's cool but I'm thinking that there are better options so I'm open to all suggestions for the last six lvls

I'm expecting my int to be decent but u never know what the dice bring to the table right
another lvl of swashbuckler would be a good idea then cause that gives me:
strength + dex +int to dmg which adds up since I'm only using daggers.

lately I'm also thinking of playing a strongeheart halfing
reading through ToB I fount the stance(I think) wolf climbs the mountain. which sounded extremely cool but I think It's a too high lvl. If you guys could find a way to incorporate it in my build that would be great

thx for the great input so far, keep it coming
greetz
#11
howland_reed
Mar 16, 2008 18:48:26 What you've got looks pretty good to me, for the most part. I'm wondering if daring outlaw gives you enough "bang" for a feat...right now, it gives you an extra 1d6 SA and a +1 Dodge bonus to AC. There are a couple feats you could take instead that might give you more oomph.

In particular, you should try to fit Deadly Defense, especially if you can also take Combat Expertise (take one of them at 6th, in place of daring outlaw, and you can take the other at 12th)...that gives you an extra +1d6 damage whenever you fight defensively (including using Combat Expertise, as long as you take at least a -2 penalty). That's 1d6 per hit...not bad for you.

Also keep in mind that, at least at present, you don't have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting in your build...without that, you're only getting 1 off-hand attack, regardless of your BAB. Maybe take it at 15th (or earlier, if you can squeeze/rearrange).

Taking a flaw at 1st level would give you an extra feat as well...would really help, since you seem to need a bunch of feats.

Further progress:

I'd definitely take Swashbuckler 3 at 15th...if you have any Int bonus at all, it's worth it (and by that level, a stat adder would be fairly cheap to help maximize it). Beyond that...

Master Thrower is still an option.
More Swashbuckler isn't a bad choice, if you decide to keep Daring Outlaw (in fact, it would make Daring Outlaw worth it...more HP, more BAB, and increasing your sneak attack).
More Swordsage would be nice, if you'd like more maneuvers. 2 more levels of Swordsage is +2 BAB, nice skills, 2 new maneuvers, and swap one old maneuver for a newer one. Add another level (5 total) loses you another point of BAB, but nets you another stance, another maneuver, another maneuver readied, and another +1 initiative. Really, you can't go wrong taking martial adept levels.
On that note, dipping Warblade at high levels is nice too...if you took a level at, say, 17th...your initiator level in Warblade would be 9th...you can take 5th level maneuvers right off the bat! And while your stance has to be 1st level, you can take Punishing Stance, which is always nice (wouldn't use it much, though...it doesn't let you use Shadow Blade).

Maneuver choices:

With your current build, Wolf Climbs the Mountain is going to be tough...it's 6th, so it needs an 11th level initiator. At 15th level (taking Swashbuckler 3 at 15th), your Swordsage IL is only 8. If you keep going in Swordsage after that, you'd be able to take it at 18th level.

Swordsage 1: first, I'd recommend delaying this until 5th...that way, when choosing your initial maneuvers, your IL is 3rd (Sws1, plus half of your other 4) and you can take 2nd level maneuvers.
If you do that, take either Island of Blades, Child of Shadow, or Blood in the Water as your first stance. For your maneuvers, you've got a lot of good choices...Wolf Fang Strike is almost necessary, since you need 3 Tiger Claw maneuvers to get into Bloodclaw Master (Blood in the Water stance is good for the same reason), and Sudden Leap likewise (they're also both useful). Besides them, I'd suggest Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, or Mountain Hammer.

Swordsage 2: for your second stance, I think Assassin's Stance is clearly the winner. For your maneuver, I'd go with Soaring Raptor Strike (if you need a 3rd Tiger Claw to qualify for BCM), or maybe Shadow Garrote or Strength Draining Strike.

Swordsage 3 (if you take it at 16th, your IL is 9): grab Dancing Mongoose.

Swordsage 4 (if you take it at 17th, your IL is 10): grab Pouncing Charge, and then swap out (either Mountain Hammer for Elder Mt. Hammer, or Shadow Jaunt for Shadow Stride).

If you want to keep going (to get Wolf Climbs the Mountain)...

Swordsage 5: grab Wolf Climbs the Mountain

Swordsage 6: grab Ghost Blade, and trade something up (not sure what).

Swordsage 7: grab Shadow Blink or Death in the Dark...both are awesome.

If you end up continuing Swordsage, I also strongly recommend Adaptive Style feat at some point (even if you don't grab it until 18th). Swordsage recovery sucks, so these maneuvers will mostly be "once per encounter" unless you grab adaptive style.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 menfir Mar 12, 2008 14:21:13	hey all, for the next campaign I'm in I want to roll a char who is all about daggers. he's going to be a scoundrell who bluffs, steals and cheats people. but if he can't solve a situation with words he takes out his daggers and the menace begins. If you're out of reach for melee he'll just throw a couple of his daggers and then moves into melee. in melee he will feint and stab you hard. if he gets cornered he will tumble out of danger. this is how i basically see my char. there are still a lot of things i don't know yet for example I'm not sure if i want to go into two weapon fighting. now what I want for this char: he knows all about daggers, he knows how to throw them and how to use them in melee. so for prestige classes I was thinking, invisible blade and master thrower. im stuck with the starting class though. first I was thinking of starting of as a rogue for some sneak attack abilities, evasion and skills ofcours but lately I'm thinking more of swashbuckler for better BaB and weaponfinesse as bonus feat since i'll probably take that feat anyways what bothers me about rogue is that i don't get full BaB what bothers me about swashbuckler is that i don't get the right skills like sneak and sleight of hand or maybe i should just stack them with darring outlaw he is also going to use feint a lot which he gets improvements on from invisible blade I'm not an experienced player and i'm not looking for the uber build I just want my char to be competent enough to hold himself in a battle with a pair(or more) of daggers. so i need help in when to take levels in what class and what feats to take u can make suggestions for two weapon fighting(which looks cool to me) or not I'll probably go human for the extra feat and skillpoints because I think this build will require them allmost everything is allowed(maybe even everything) but I need to quallify for the prestige classes. My DM lets me take a feat nescessary for a PrC when I first take a lvl in that class. Hope you guys can give me some good ideas/builds. thx in advance now i want him to have full or near full BaB.
#2 carnivore Mar 12, 2008 15:47:38	try this: Rogue(feat variant) 2/ Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible blade 5/ Master thrower 5 use the Drow Sub level for Fighter... loose Heavy and Medium Armor proficiencies, and Tower Shields... Gain Dex to Damage vs Flatfooted within 30' feats: Carmondine monk(Champions of Valor)..... switches Monk Bonuses to AC from Wis to Int :D
#3 menfir Mar 12, 2008 16:44:47	thx I'll look into your suggestions
#4 pathanus Mar 12, 2008 18:21:28	ToB Characters: # Beshadowed Blade by Tleilaxu_Ghola # Beshadowed Blade v2.0 by Gaffer Focus on dagger TWF and Stormguard Warrior feat.
#5 jameswilliamogle Mar 12, 2008 18:41:40	There's a lot of potential for weapons that do two types of damage, too. I'd suggest taking a gander at PHB2 and Complete Warrior to see if you can find something (likely you'd mix in Fighter levels for bonus feats, but more BAB is nice, too). Slashing Flurry, for example, and Bear Fang and Crescent Moon, all add something (maybe not to your specific build, though).
#6 howland_reed Mar 12, 2008 18:57:21	I'd dip 2 levels of swordsage, at least...nets you: --Wep Focus in all Shadow Hand weapons (including daggers) --1 1st lvl stance (I'd go Island of Blades) --1 higher lvl stance, if you take your levels right (take Swordsage2 at 8th or higher) you can get Assassin's Stance, which is what I'd use (+2d6 sneak attack) --7 maneuvers, total, including some really useful ones without prereqs, like Cloak of Deception or Mountain Hammer --Spend a feat on Shadow Blade...that gives you Dex to damage (in addition to Str) when in shadow hand stance (like Assassin's) with a shadow hand weapon (like a dagger) If you're planning to TWF (which it sounds like you are), you could also go a level or 2 of Bloodclaw Master...prereqs are easy to meet, and 2 lvls gets you full Str bonus on your off-hand attacks, no penalty for TWF with daggers, and a few other tricks. Maybe something like... Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Rogue +2/Invisible Blade 1/Master Thrower 1/Swordsage 2/Bloodclaw Master 2/ take the rest of your Invisible Blade & Master Thrower levels You end up with +17 BAB, pretty good skills (5 levels of 6 or 8 skpts, 13 levels of 4 skpts, with good lists), fair HP (2d12+3d10+7d8+8d6), 5d6 sneak attack with your daggers (7d6 with assassin's stance, 8d6 if you want to burn a feat for Daring outlaw), TWF with no penalties and full Str bonus on off-hand, and you can add Str + Dex + Int to damage with your daggers. Tweak as you like. If you don't have ToB, of course, this goes down the drain...
#7 menfir Mar 14, 2008 6:04:04	hey all thx for the great input right now i have this for a build 1)rogue (1), feat 1st lvl: weapon focus dagger, feat human: two weapon fighting, SA +1D6, trapfinding 2)swashbuckler(1), weapon finesse 3)scout (1), feat 3de lvl:point blank shot, skirmish (1D6), trapfinding 4)scout (2), battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge 5)scout (3), fast movement, trackless step, skirmish (1D6, +1) 6)scout (4), feat 6de lvl far shot, feat scout 4: swift ambusher -> skirmish (2D6 +1) 7)invisible blade (1), +1D6, unfettered defense 8)invisible blade (2), bleeding wound 9)invisible blade (3), +2D6, uncanny feint(move), feat 9de: precise shot 10)invisible blade (4), feint mastery 11)invisible blade(5), +3D6, uncanny feint(free) 12)figther (1), feat fighter: dodge, feat lvl 12 mobility 13)fighter (2), feat figther: spring attack, 14)master thrower (1), quick draw, throw weapon trick 15)master thrower (2), evasion 16)master thrower (3), throw weapon trick 17)master thrower (4), snatch arrows 18)master thrower (5), throw weapon trick, critical throw, 19) 20) as you can see two lvls are still blank, also I'm not sure about the lvls after invisible blade(I like the Idea of spring attack combined with the increased speed of scout and the feinting as a free action from inv blade though) suggestions/improvements are very much welcome. Is there a feat/anything available that lets me throw a dagger as a swift action? if so at high lvl I would be able to move in, feint, sneak attack + skirmish, move out, throw a dagger at him with skirmish, which is a cool move(flavor wise). all help very much appreciated greetz
#8 howland_reed Mar 15, 2008 20:27:45	If your Int is decent at all, you could take Swashbuckler 2 & 3 and get Insightful Strike (+Int to damage), which couldn't hurt. I don't know of any feat that lets you throw a dagger as a swift action...but there's a feat from Player's Handbook II that lets you make 2 attacks during your spring attack, instead of just 1...that'd let you pull off the exact stunt you describe. I think it's called either Bounding Assault or Rapid Blitz. You'd have to check for feat qualifications, but you might also try Dervish or Duelist for those last 2 levels. Or, failing everything else, just another 2 fighter levels to grab specialization. Isn't there an Improved Skirmish feat, that increases your skirmish damage if you move further than 10 feet? That'd be nice. I think it's in Complete Scoundrel. (I'm assuming Tome of Battle is out? Because if not--and I mean this in the nicest possible way--you're a fool if you don't go the Shadow Blade route. If so, oh well.)
#9 operation_shoestring Mar 15, 2008 21:01:05	try this: Rogue(feat variant) 2/ Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible blade 5/ Master thrower 5 use the Drow Sub level for Fighter... loose Heavy and Medium Armor proficiencies, and Tower Shields... Gain Dex to Damage vs Flatfooted within 30' feats: Carmondine monk(Champions of Valor)..... switches Monk Bonuses to AC from Wis to Int :D Don't you have to be a drow to use a drow Sub level? And you forgot the riposite feat that makes IB's non-suck
#10 menfir Mar 16, 2008 10:59:22	hey all ToB is in(hehe) after reading through it I redesigned my build to put in the shadow hand route and the bloodclaw master. I have now this for a build: rogue (1) two weapon fighting, point blank shot SA 1D6, trapfinding swashbuckler (1) weapon finesse swordsage (1) far shot weapon focus(dagger ...), quick to act +1 rogue (2) evasion rogue (3) SA 2D6, trapsens +1 swashbuckler (2) darring outlaw S1 3D6, grace +1, dodge bonus +1 invisible blade (1) SA 4D6, unfettered defense swordsage (2) ac bonus, bloodclaw master(1) shadow blade shifting 1/day, claws of the beast bloodclaw master(2) superior 2 weapon fighting, tyger claw synergy invisible blade (2) bleeding wound invisible blade (3) feats SA 5D6, uncanny feint (move) invisible blade (4) feint mastery invisible blade (5) SA 6D6, uncanny feint (free) stances: probably child of shadows, and assassin's stance for sure. lattely I'm doubting master thrower, flavor wise it's cool but I'm thinking that there are better options so I'm open to all suggestions for the last six lvls I'm expecting my int to be decent but u never know what the dice bring to the table right another lvl of swashbuckler would be a good idea then cause that gives me: strength + dex +int to dmg which adds up since I'm only using daggers. lately I'm also thinking of playing a strongeheart halfing reading through ToB I fount the stance(I think) wolf climbs the mountain. which sounded extremely cool but I think It's a too high lvl. If you guys could find a way to incorporate it in my build that would be great thx for the great input so far, keep it coming greetz
#11 howland_reed Mar 16, 2008 18:48:26	What you've got looks pretty good to me, for the most part. I'm wondering if daring outlaw gives you enough "bang" for a feat...right now, it gives you an extra 1d6 SA and a +1 Dodge bonus to AC. There are a couple feats you could take instead that might give you more oomph. In particular, you should try to fit Deadly Defense, especially if you can also take Combat Expertise (take one of them at 6th, in place of daring outlaw, and you can take the other at 12th)...that gives you an extra +1d6 damage whenever you fight defensively (including using Combat Expertise, as long as you take at least a -2 penalty). That's 1d6 per hit...not bad for you. Also keep in mind that, at least at present, you don't have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting in your build...without that, you're only getting 1 off-hand attack, regardless of your BAB. Maybe take it at 15th (or earlier, if you can squeeze/rearrange). Taking a flaw at 1st level would give you an extra feat as well...would really help, since you seem to need a bunch of feats. Further progress: I'd definitely take Swashbuckler 3 at 15th...if you have any Int bonus at all, it's worth it (and by that level, a stat adder would be fairly cheap to help maximize it). Beyond that... Master Thrower is still an option. More Swashbuckler isn't a bad choice, if you decide to keep Daring Outlaw (in fact, it would make Daring Outlaw worth it...more HP, more BAB, and increasing your sneak attack). More Swordsage would be nice, if you'd like more maneuvers. 2 more levels of Swordsage is +2 BAB, nice skills, 2 new maneuvers, and swap one old maneuver for a newer one. Add another level (5 total) loses you another point of BAB, but nets you another stance, another maneuver, another maneuver readied, and another +1 initiative. Really, you can't go wrong taking martial adept levels. On that note, dipping Warblade at high levels is nice too...if you took a level at, say, 17th...your initiator level in Warblade would be 9th...you can take 5th level maneuvers right off the bat! And while your stance has to be 1st level, you can take Punishing Stance, which is always nice (wouldn't use it much, though...it doesn't let you use Shadow Blade). Maneuver choices: With your current build, Wolf Climbs the Mountain is going to be tough...it's 6th, so it needs an 11th level initiator. At 15th level (taking Swashbuckler 3 at 15th), your Swordsage IL is only 8. If you keep going in Swordsage after that, you'd be able to take it at 18th level. Swordsage 1: first, I'd recommend delaying this until 5th...that way, when choosing your initial maneuvers, your IL is 3rd (Sws1, plus half of your other 4) and you can take 2nd level maneuvers. If you do that, take either Island of Blades, Child of Shadow, or Blood in the Water as your first stance. For your maneuvers, you've got a lot of good choices...Wolf Fang Strike is almost necessary, since you need 3 Tiger Claw maneuvers to get into Bloodclaw Master (Blood in the Water stance is good for the same reason), and Sudden Leap likewise (they're also both useful). Besides them, I'd suggest Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, or Mountain Hammer. Swordsage 2: for your second stance, I think Assassin's Stance is clearly the winner. For your maneuver, I'd go with Soaring Raptor Strike (if you need a 3rd Tiger Claw to qualify for BCM), or maybe Shadow Garrote or Strength Draining Strike. Swordsage 3 (if you take it at 16th, your IL is 9): grab Dancing Mongoose. Swordsage 4 (if you take it at 17th, your IL is 10): grab Pouncing Charge, and then swap out (either Mountain Hammer for Elder Mt. Hammer, or Shadow Jaunt for Shadow Stride). If you want to keep going (to get Wolf Climbs the Mountain)... Swordsage 5: grab Wolf Climbs the Mountain Swordsage 6: grab Ghost Blade, and trade something up (not sure what). Swordsage 7: grab Shadow Blink or Death in the Dark...both are awesome. If you end up continuing Swordsage, I also strongly recommend Adaptive Style feat at some point (even if you don't grab it until 18th). Swordsage recovery sucks, so these maneuvers will mostly be "once per encounter" unless you grab adaptive style.