Daggerspell mage build needs help - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Daggerspell mage build needs help

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
the_smartest_lemming
Jun 03, 2009 0:35:55 I'm trying to put together a Daggerspell Mage for a new campaign I'm getting into, and am getting a bit of a mind freeze. Here is what I have got so far.

The campaign allows Core, all completes, Exalted Deeds, Psionics Handbook,Vile Darkness, Cityscape, Dungeonscape, Libris Mortis, Heros of Horror, Lords of Madness, Unearth Arcana, Dragon Magic, Races of Dragon, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of Wild, Tome of Magic, and Savage Species.

We use a 28 point buy for stats Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int, 16, Wis 8, Cha8

What I have so far for the build is: Human Swash1/Rogue1/Wiz1/Swash3/Daggerspell Mage10/Abjurant Champion5

Feats so far:
H: WF: Dagger
1: 2 weap fighting
3: Practiced Spell Caster
6:
9:Staggering Strike?
12:Combat Casting

Was thinking about throwing in Combat Expertise, Improved Feignt, Craven, Trikery Devotion, Dark Stalker but haven't quite come up with where and what I want to put in.

This guy is going to be in a sneak/rogue/intrigue heavy campaign that starts at 1st level, so I'm trying to put together something that will be viable 1-20, fun to play, and useful (hehe). This is just a rough draft, nothing final, and I would love to hear any suggestions you all might have for me. Thanks.
#2
jgumbyrx
Jun 03, 2009 0:40:49 if you follow-up daggerspell mage with arcane trickster, you not only get full caster progression, but you also get full sneak-attack proggression; as well as good skill selection (though, it's a little short on skill points).

*(oversight removed)*
#3
xakypshalorn
Jun 03, 2009 1:08:50 Yeah, it's best to follow with a class that advances casting and sneak attack, but since your going to be putting in 5 levels I have to suggest one that gives better BAB than 1/2 like Arcane Trickster.

Personally, I love spellwarp sniper, from Complete Scoundrel, it can be incredibly fun and powerful when put together propperly (and is one of the few classes that facilitate's bloodlines well.) But! with your campaign being heavily intrigue based, I have to recommend Unseen Seer a little higher, as it's focused on being a casting spy so to speak, with bonuses towards divination.

On that note, are you sure you want to give up 3 caster levels for Swashbuckler? Insightful strike is cool and all, but between those and the rogue level your losing out on 9th level spells at the end, and that hurts BADLY.
#4
jgumbyrx
Jun 03, 2009 1:31:47
On that note, are you sure you want to give up 3 caster levels for Swashbuckler? Insightful strike is cool and all, but between those and the rogue level your losing out on 9th level spells at the end, and that hurts BADLY.

+1
#5
the_smartest_lemming
Jun 03, 2009 1:50:47
also, weapon finesse would be better for using your daggers. keep out of melee, and you should be good-to-go.

Sorry I should have said it better, Swash meant Swashbuckler base class from the Complete Warrior which gets weapon finess at first level.

The arcane trixter is a great class, but as of right now I was thinking of playing this guy as a meleer, so I was trying to keep the BAB up pretty high to keep my chance of hit acceptable.

As far as having Swashbuckler drain away my 9th level spells, I know that goes pretty much agains charop ideals, but my rason for popping it in is for early game survivability, and the fact that I have rarely played in a game that gets higher than 15th level.

You have gotten me thinking however, so when I've got some more time I'll look up some other good starts to the Dager Spell Mage.

Thanks for the quick replies.
#6
the_smartest_lemming
Jun 03, 2009 2:00:27
I have to recommend Unseen Seer a little higher, as it's focused on being a casting spy so to speak, with bonuses towards divination.QUOTE]

I don't know how I ever passed that PRC up. I'll have to look into it. Thanks for pointing it out.
#7
dr_rocktopus
Jun 03, 2009 2:29:58 It really is superb.
My short list is:
Abj Champ
Spellwarp Sniper
Unseen Seer

You'll note that these are full casting classes :: gentle smile ::
#8
xakypshalorn
Jun 03, 2009 2:56:39 Yeah, Unseen Seer is full casting progression. At 3 points in the build you get +1 caster level to divinations and -1 caster level to non-divinations (meaning combined with the rogue level practiced spellcaster gets it's full effect, and you net 3 extra divination caster levels, which can deffinitely be handy for penetrating spell resistance to spy on people. better durations and ranges, you get the picture.)

Also, at (I believe 3?) times during it's 10 levels (you might take less or more, and you may end up deciding to completely scrap daggerspell mage lmao, depending on how you decide to develop the build) you can add a single divination spell of any level you can cast from any spell list in the game to your spellbook and class list.
#9
dr_rocktopus
Jun 03, 2009 3:07:47 Adding stuff to your spell list?
Basically absolutely amazing.
#10
cru
Jun 03, 2009 6:42:47 I was recently thinking about making a Dagg-ar-canamach, sneak attack fighter into suel arcanamach and then daggerspell mage (focusing on BAB, casting secondary). I didn't really get far, but perhaps it's an idea worth considering. (Perhaps using the feat Keeper of the Forbidden Lore [Abyssal Heritor] from FC1 to get skill ranks for arcanamach).
#11
lormador
Jun 03, 2009 9:10:30 I recommend Spell Storing Daggers and at least 5 levels of Daggerspell Mage. With a spell in each dagger, and a charge held on each hand (Hand of the Mage for doing the necessary things) a nice quick stabbity stabbity will discharge all 4 of those spells... plus the sneak attack.

Dang, now I want to play one of these just so I can mutter, "stabbity stab stabbity" at the table.
#12
ian_frost
Jun 03, 2009 11:12:31 grab spellthief instead of rogue and then take the master spell thief feat from comp scoundrel for all your anti-mage fun!
#13
the_smartest_lemming
Jun 03, 2009 18:57:18 Ok, so I took a second look at Swashbuckler in this build, and came up with another build without it. The big problem is that I don't get the 1 BAB or Weapon Finesse at 1st level, leaving me to grab them much later on, which worriees me due to this new builds much lower to hit in the first few levels.

Here's the build: Same stat distribution with Int Stat bumps at 4, 8, 20 and Dex at 12,16

Human Spell Thief2/Wiz3/Unseen Seer1/DaggerSpell Mage 10/USS 5

Feats
H: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Practiced Spell Caster
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Weapon Focus
9: Master Spell Thief (would like it earlier)
12: Staggering Strike (I like it, but is there a better feat to go here?)
15: ???
18: ITWF (Worth working towards?)

Does this sound better/more viable? Again I'm looking for an 1-20 optimization, not just a best at 20.

I'm thinking of maybe going Spell Thief2/Wiz3/Unseen Seer5/DaggerSpell Mage 10/ So that I can get Master Spell Thief earlier (at 6th) Does that sound like a better option?

This build looks much less like a melee capable character, is there something I can do to change that, or am I just looking past/over something (like I did with Unseen Seer hahahaha)

Oh, and of course spell storing weapon ftw with this build.
#14
SwordDisciple
Jun 03, 2009 20:16:27 So are you really wanting a sneaky melee build with spell access or a sneaky caster that can strike well in a surprise round and keep itself from perishing long enough to run away?

The above suggestions are all focused on being a caster type..

Unseen Seer is good.. Generally I dip it due to the fact that I hate that you lose CL for all spells other than Divination though.
#15
the_smartest_lemming
Jun 03, 2009 22:10:02
So are you really wanting a sneaky melee build with spell access or a sneaky caster that can strike well in a surprise round and keep itself from perishing long enough to run away?

Ok, so I'm flip flopping on the decision mainly because I don't know what the other players are going to do, or really how many there will be.

Would you say that the first build that I listed would be an acceptable melee build with spell access, Or would you suggest more defensive capabilities?
#16
SwordDisciple
Jun 03, 2009 22:34:11 Obviously a caster will be more versitile and powerful..

Why Spellthief 2?

If you're wanting a more combat involved build I'd think of something like:
Spellthief1/Duskblade4/Daggerspell Mage2/Abjurant Champion5/Daggerspell Mage 8

Also means you'll just have 5 levels of Daggerspell Mage left if you only go to 15th and BAB of 10 at 12th level

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 the_smartest_lemming Jun 03, 2009 0:35:55	I'm trying to put together a Daggerspell Mage for a new campaign I'm getting into, and am getting a bit of a mind freeze. Here is what I have got so far. The campaign allows Core, all completes, Exalted Deeds, Psionics Handbook,Vile Darkness, Cityscape, Dungeonscape, Libris Mortis, Heros of Horror, Lords of Madness, Unearth Arcana, Dragon Magic, Races of Dragon, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of Wild, Tome of Magic, and Savage Species. We use a 28 point buy for stats Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int, 16, Wis 8, Cha8 What I have so far for the build is: Human Swash1/Rogue1/Wiz1/Swash3/Daggerspell Mage10/Abjurant Champion5 Feats so far: H: WF: Dagger 1: 2 weap fighting 3: Practiced Spell Caster 6: 9:Staggering Strike? 12:Combat Casting Was thinking about throwing in Combat Expertise, Improved Feignt, Craven, Trikery Devotion, Dark Stalker but haven't quite come up with where and what I want to put in. This guy is going to be in a sneak/rogue/intrigue heavy campaign that starts at 1st level, so I'm trying to put together something that will be viable 1-20, fun to play, and useful (hehe). This is just a rough draft, nothing final, and I would love to hear any suggestions you all might have for me. Thanks.
#2 jgumbyrx Jun 03, 2009 0:40:49	if you follow-up daggerspell mage with arcane trickster, you not only get full caster progression, but you also get full sneak-attack proggression; as well as good skill selection (though, it's a little short on skill points). (oversight removed)
#3 xakypshalorn Jun 03, 2009 1:08:50	Yeah, it's best to follow with a class that advances casting and sneak attack, but since your going to be putting in 5 levels I have to suggest one that gives better BAB than 1/2 like Arcane Trickster. Personally, I love spellwarp sniper, from Complete Scoundrel, it can be incredibly fun and powerful when put together propperly (and is one of the few classes that facilitate's bloodlines well.) But! with your campaign being heavily intrigue based, I have to recommend Unseen Seer a little higher, as it's focused on being a casting spy so to speak, with bonuses towards divination. On that note, are you sure you want to give up 3 caster levels for Swashbuckler? Insightful strike is cool and all, but between those and the rogue level your losing out on 9th level spells at the end, and that hurts BADLY.
#4 jgumbyrx Jun 03, 2009 1:31:47	On that note, are you sure you want to give up 3 caster levels for Swashbuckler? Insightful strike is cool and all, but between those and the rogue level your losing out on 9th level spells at the end, and that hurts BADLY. +1
#5 the_smartest_lemming Jun 03, 2009 1:50:47	also, weapon finesse would be better for using your daggers. keep out of melee, and you should be good-to-go. Sorry I should have said it better, Swash meant Swashbuckler base class from the Complete Warrior which gets weapon finess at first level. The arcane trixter is a great class, but as of right now I was thinking of playing this guy as a meleer, so I was trying to keep the BAB up pretty high to keep my chance of hit acceptable. As far as having Swashbuckler drain away my 9th level spells, I know that goes pretty much agains charop ideals, but my rason for popping it in is for early game survivability, and the fact that I have rarely played in a game that gets higher than 15th level. You have gotten me thinking however, so when I've got some more time I'll look up some other good starts to the Dager Spell Mage. Thanks for the quick replies.
#6 the_smartest_lemming Jun 03, 2009 2:00:27	I have to recommend Unseen Seer a little higher, as it's focused on being a casting spy so to speak, with bonuses towards divination.QUOTE] I don't know how I ever passed that PRC up. I'll have to look into it. Thanks for pointing it out.
#7 dr_rocktopus Jun 03, 2009 2:29:58	It really is superb. My short list is: Abj Champ Spellwarp Sniper Unseen Seer You'll note that these are full casting classes :: gentle smile ::
#8 xakypshalorn Jun 03, 2009 2:56:39	Yeah, Unseen Seer is full casting progression. At 3 points in the build you get +1 caster level to divinations and -1 caster level to non-divinations (meaning combined with the rogue level practiced spellcaster gets it's full effect, and you net 3 extra divination caster levels, which can deffinitely be handy for penetrating spell resistance to spy on people. better durations and ranges, you get the picture.) Also, at (I believe 3?) times during it's 10 levels (you might take less or more, and you may end up deciding to completely scrap daggerspell mage lmao, depending on how you decide to develop the build) you can add a single divination spell of any level you can cast from any spell list in the game to your spellbook and class list.
#9 dr_rocktopus Jun 03, 2009 3:07:47	Adding stuff to your spell list? Basically absolutely amazing.
#10 cru Jun 03, 2009 6:42:47	I was recently thinking about making a Dagg-ar-canamach, sneak attack fighter into suel arcanamach and then daggerspell mage (focusing on BAB, casting secondary). I didn't really get far, but perhaps it's an idea worth considering. (Perhaps using the feat Keeper of the Forbidden Lore [Abyssal Heritor] from FC1 to get skill ranks for arcanamach).
#11 lormador Jun 03, 2009 9:10:30	I recommend Spell Storing Daggers and at least 5 levels of Daggerspell Mage. With a spell in each dagger, and a charge held on each hand (Hand of the Mage for doing the necessary things) a nice quick stabbity stabbity will discharge all 4 of those spells... plus the sneak attack. Dang, now I want to play one of these just so I can mutter, "stabbity stab stabbity" at the table.
#12 ian_frost Jun 03, 2009 11:12:31	grab spellthief instead of rogue and then take the master spell thief feat from comp scoundrel for all your anti-mage fun!
#13 the_smartest_lemming Jun 03, 2009 18:57:18	Ok, so I took a second look at Swashbuckler in this build, and came up with another build without it. The big problem is that I don't get the 1 BAB or Weapon Finesse at 1st level, leaving me to grab them much later on, which worriees me due to this new builds much lower to hit in the first few levels. Here's the build: Same stat distribution with Int Stat bumps at 4, 8, 20 and Dex at 12,16 Human Spell Thief2/Wiz3/Unseen Seer1/DaggerSpell Mage 10/USS 5 Feats H: Two Weapon Fighting 1: Practiced Spell Caster 3: Weapon Finesse 6: Weapon Focus 9: Master Spell Thief (would like it earlier) 12: Staggering Strike (I like it, but is there a better feat to go here?) 15: ??? 18: ITWF (Worth working towards?) Does this sound better/more viable? Again I'm looking for an 1-20 optimization, not just a best at 20. I'm thinking of maybe going Spell Thief2/Wiz3/Unseen Seer5/DaggerSpell Mage 10/ So that I can get Master Spell Thief earlier (at 6th) Does that sound like a better option? This build looks much less like a melee capable character, is there something I can do to change that, or am I just looking past/over something (like I did with Unseen Seer hahahaha) Oh, and of course spell storing weapon ftw with this build.
#14 SwordDisciple Jun 03, 2009 20:16:27	So are you really wanting a sneaky melee build with spell access or a sneaky caster that can strike well in a surprise round and keep itself from perishing long enough to run away? The above suggestions are all focused on being a caster type.. Unseen Seer is good.. Generally I dip it due to the fact that I hate that you lose CL for all spells other than Divination though.
#15 the_smartest_lemming Jun 03, 2009 22:10:02	So are you really wanting a sneaky melee build with spell access or a sneaky caster that can strike well in a surprise round and keep itself from perishing long enough to run away? Ok, so I'm flip flopping on the decision mainly because I don't know what the other players are going to do, or really how many there will be. Would you say that the first build that I listed would be an acceptable melee build with spell access, Or would you suggest more defensive capabilities?
#16 SwordDisciple Jun 03, 2009 22:34:11	Obviously a caster will be more versitile and powerful.. Why Spellthief 2? If you're wanting a more combat involved build I'd think of something like: Spellthief1/Duskblade4/Daggerspell Mage2/Abjurant Champion5/Daggerspell Mage 8 Also means you'll just have 5 levels of Daggerspell Mage left if you only go to 15th and BAB of 10 at 12th level