Please be patient, as this is a work in progress. Please point out inaccuracies, and if you have any comments/observations, if there are any spells I missed that synergize well. post them!
*EDIT* Spells have been organized by school, and are in alphabetical order, and have been condensed to make for easier page browsing.
The Spell Rating System
Unabashedly stolen from TM, the rating system follows.
This spell's a turkey; not worth having in your spellbook at all.:thumbsdow Not bad, but not good enough for me to recommend.
* : Run of the mill. It's OK, but nothing special.
The spell is solid. I recommend it.
This spell is highly recommended.
Jackpot!Getting the Most Mileage out of Charm Person/Monster
Charm Monster:
This charm makes a [creature of any size and HD] regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the [monster] as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed [monster] breaks the spell. You must speak the [monster]’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
I notice now that I completely forgot to add Perform - Pantomime to my list of essential skills. that is one part of getting good mileage out of Charm Person/Monster. If for some reason you don't speak the language, a Perform Check (DC 5 for Intelligent Monsters, DC 10 for unintelligent monsters, this is our house rule for the DC on a Perform check, since it's an inherent part of the magic of the Charm Spell) will allow you to give it commands. (Scaling in complexity with how well you do on your pantomime check)
Charm Monster will by far get the most mileage out of unintelligent monsters. This would be most of your Magical Beasts, all of your Animals, and some other creatures. They will regard you as friendly for the duration of the spell. Treat them right, feed them, treat them like a broodling (you are the alpha, they are a part of your pack, that kind of thing), have them follow you around, protect them from harm as you do, and it becomes easier and easier to convince them with a charisma check to do increasingly suicidal things in order to protect your life. A Charm Monster at the beginning of a battle is a Save or Die spell. Any creature that fails is your friend, and you can essentially command it to sit out the battle, if it's part of a pack of creatures. If it's part of a random mix, you can command it to begin attacking it's former allied monsters, simply because they look a hell of a lot more like "food" than allies.
Then when the effect of the spell wears off, often times (unless your DM is a total jerk) their attitude has adjusted to friendly, trusted ally, without the use of magic. Continue to have them follow you around with charisma checks, acting as pack leader. They will always be willing to "Protect you", that order is very nearly never a suicidal one. Most times a "Protect my allies" will be a non-suicidal order as well. Often times, if the monster is a predatory creature in the first place telling a charmed monster to "Hunt, kill" and pointing to something specific, will sound like a good idea, and the monster will bring back the dead thing in it's jaws like a trophy for the pack leader.
Charm is more difficult in some ways to use on intelligent creatures. Ask your DM if you can Substitute Bluff and Diplomacy in place of a standard Charisma check, explaining that creatures need to be convinced to help you out in some manner anyways, and this is done with a bluff against unfriendly creatures, and diplomacy against friendlies. So why would it all of the sudden simply change to a charisma check once they are under the influence of your spell?
Regardless, an order to "Protect Me!" would hardly ever be considered suicidal by an intelligent creature. With a decent diplomacy check, or bluff check, (more often diplomacy) you can convince an intelligent creature that you are a more important friend and ally than those who had originally started to attack you. This will cause them to start harassing if not outright defending you from the lethal threats of their allies. An excellent diplomacy check in our world also causes the creature to regard my allies as friends and trusted allies as well.
With Intelligent monsters, continued use of Charm and Diplomacy in the right situations, combined with the Leadership feat, can get you a cohort of appropriately higher levels than just Leadership alone would get you (subject to DM approval) and will also get you much more followers than just Diplomacy and Leadership alone. If the creature is a mercenary type, fighting and killing for money, a Diplomacy check could convince a creature to adventure with you instead of it's former party, seeing you as a more profitable group. If the creature is a guard type, like a gate guard, a good diplomacy check could convince the creature that being your bodyguard will be far more profitable than guarding some stupid gate or door. Always offer payment at first, and then when you start splitting small amounts of your swag (a rather low price to pay for a "trusted ally") with the charmed thrall (remember this is only for intelligent stuff) they start to see the profit in your offer without even getting a stipend.
Charm Person and Charm Monster are far more useful in city settings, where you don't necessarily want to start a brawl with someone or something, rather you simply want them to assist you in some manner. For example often times I'll charm guards and have them keep their ears open for information about that "evil party of criminals, information like warrants, whether or not a description has been set out" things like that. While obviously this is not the same level of control as you can get out of Dominate Person/Monster, it is however far more than you would initially get out of an unfriendly creature.
One important thing to remember with Charm Person and Charm Monster, is to go through the motions with your party every couple of days to show them what the spell looks and sounds like, so they can at least attempt a check to halt an attack against an enemy attacker, if they hear you cast this spell and give the creature an order. It's an extra preventative measure against breaking the spell. The same with Dominate Person/Monster.
Charm Monster:
This charm makes a [creature of any size and HD] regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the [monster] as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed [monster] breaks the spell. You must speak the [monster]’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
I notice now that I completely forgot to add Perform - Pantomime to my list of essential skills. that is one part of getting good mileage out of Charm Person/Monster. If for some reason you don't speak the language, a Perform Check (DC 5 for Intelligent Monsters, DC 10 for unintelligent monsters, this is our house rule for the DC on a Perform check, since it's an inherent part of the magic of the Charm Spell) will allow you to give it commands. (Scaling in complexity with how well you do on your pantomime check)
Charm Monster will by far get the most mileage out of unintelligent monsters. This would be most of your Magical Beasts, all of your Animals, and some other creatures. They will regard you as friendly for the duration of the spell. Treat them right, feed them, treat them like a broodling (you are the alpha, they are a part of your pack, that kind of thing), have them follow you around, protect them from harm as you do, and it becomes easier and easier to convince them with a charisma check to do increasingly suicidal things in order to protect your life. A Charm Monster at the beginning of a battle is a Save or Die spell. Any creature that fails is your friend, and you can essentially command it to sit out the battle, if it's part of a pack of creatures. If it's part of a random mix, you can command it to begin attacking it's former allied monsters, simply because they look a hell of a lot more like "food" than allies.
Then when the effect of the spell wears off, often times (unless your DM is a total jerk) their attitude has adjusted to friendly, trusted ally, without the use of magic. Continue to have them follow you around with charisma checks, acting as pack leader. They will always be willing to "Protect you", that order is very nearly never a suicidal one. Most times a "Protect my allies" will be a non-suicidal order as well. Often times, if the monster is a predatory creature in the first place telling a charmed monster to "Hunt, kill" and pointing to something specific, will sound like a good idea, and the monster will bring back the dead thing in it's jaws like a trophy for the pack leader.
Charm is more difficult in some ways to use on intelligent creatures. Ask your DM if you can Substitute Bluff and Diplomacy in place of a standard Charisma check, explaining that creatures need to be convinced to help you out in some manner anyways, and this is done with a bluff against unfriendly creatures, and diplomacy against friendlies. So why would it all of the sudden simply change to a charisma check once they are under the influence of your spell?
Regardless, an order to "Protect Me!" would hardly ever be considered suicidal by an intelligent creature. With a decent diplomacy check, or bluff check, (more often diplomacy) you can convince an intelligent creature that you are a more important friend and ally than those who had originally started to attack you. This will cause them to start harassing if not outright defending you from the lethal threats of their allies. An excellent diplomacy check in our world also causes the creature to regard my allies as friends and trusted allies as well.
With Intelligent monsters, continued use of Charm and Diplomacy in the right situations, combined with the Leadership feat, can get you a cohort of appropriately higher levels than just Leadership alone would get you (subject to DM approval) and will also get you much more followers than just Diplomacy and Leadership alone. If the creature is a mercenary type, fighting and killing for money, a Diplomacy check could convince a creature to adventure with you instead of it's former party, seeing you as a more profitable group. If the creature is a guard type, like a gate guard, a good diplomacy check could convince the creature that being your bodyguard will be far more profitable than guarding some stupid gate or door. Always offer payment at first, and then when you start splitting small amounts of your swag (a rather low price to pay for a "trusted ally") with the charmed thrall (remember this is only for intelligent stuff) they start to see the profit in your offer without even getting a stipend.
Charm Person and Charm Monster are far more useful in city settings, where you don't necessarily want to start a brawl with someone or something, rather you simply want them to assist you in some manner. For example often times I'll charm guards and have them keep their ears open for information about that "evil party of criminals, information like warrants, whether or not a description has been set out" things like that. While obviously this is not the same level of control as you can get out of Dominate Person/Monster, it is however far more than you would initially get out of an unfriendly creature.
One important thing to remember with Charm Person and Charm Monster, is to go through the motions with your party every couple of days to show them what the spell looks and sounds like, so they can at least attempt a check to halt an attack against an enemy attacker, if they hear you cast this spell and give the creature an order. It's an extra preventative measure against breaking the spell. The same with Dominate Person/Monster.
Skills
I will rank these skills in order of most important to least important. If it's not listed here, don't bother taking it unless you have an ungodly number of skill points. If you are human, take able learner, it will help your charisma based social skills immensely, and save you skill points for knowledge skills.
Concentration: Max ranks every time
Spellcraft: Max ranks every time
Diplomacy: This helps you maintain control, influence those that get Charm and not Dominate. Max Ranks (get Able Learner if you are human!)
Knowledge: Max ranks in Arcana. 1 rank/2 levels in Dungeoneering. 1 rank/3 levels in Local. 2 ranks/3 levels in nature. 2 ranks/3 levels in religion. 2 ranks/3 levels in Planes. Consider Max ranks in Planes
* Arcana: Constructs, Dragons, Magical Beasts.
* Dungeoneering: Aberrations, Oozes.
* Local: Humanoids (Native local humanoids probably)
* Nature: Animals, Fey, Giants, Monstrous Humanoids, Plants, Vermin.
* Religion: Undead.
* Planes: Outsiders, Elementals.
Bluff: 1 rank/2 levels is good enough here for the most part. you'll rarely need bluff, diplomacy is the relevant skill after successfully charming something.
Perform: Pantomime 1 rank/2 is good here to pantomime unintelligent creatures and creatures that don't speak your language, in conjunction with Charm Person/Charm Monster
Intimidate: Like bluff, just not as much importance here...
Speak Language: You need to speak the language of the monsters/people you want to enchant. For spells like suggestion this is especially important. In later levels this is largely irrelevant as a permanent tongues spell or magic items can take the place of this skill.
Craft: Useless beyond flavor and prestige class requirements.
Decipher Script: Easily replicated with magic. Unfortunately there is really no point in taking this.
Profession: Useless beyond flavor and prestige class requirements.
I will rank these skills in order of most important to least important. If it's not listed here, don't bother taking it unless you have an ungodly number of skill points. If you are human, take able learner, it will help your charisma based social skills immensely, and save you skill points for knowledge skills.
Concentration: Max ranks every time
Spellcraft: Max ranks every time
Diplomacy: This helps you maintain control, influence those that get Charm and not Dominate. Max Ranks (get Able Learner if you are human!)
Knowledge: Max ranks in Arcana. 1 rank/2 levels in Dungeoneering. 1 rank/3 levels in Local. 2 ranks/3 levels in nature. 2 ranks/3 levels in religion. 2 ranks/3 levels in Planes. Consider Max ranks in Planes
* Arcana: Constructs, Dragons, Magical Beasts.
* Dungeoneering: Aberrations, Oozes.
* Local: Humanoids (Native local humanoids probably)
* Nature: Animals, Fey, Giants, Monstrous Humanoids, Plants, Vermin.
* Religion: Undead.
* Planes: Outsiders, Elementals.
Bluff: 1 rank/2 levels is good enough here for the most part. you'll rarely need bluff, diplomacy is the relevant skill after successfully charming something.
Perform: Pantomime 1 rank/2 is good here to pantomime unintelligent creatures and creatures that don't speak your language, in conjunction with Charm Person/Charm Monster
Intimidate: Like bluff, just not as much importance here...
Speak Language: You need to speak the language of the monsters/people you want to enchant. For spells like suggestion this is especially important. In later levels this is largely irrelevant as a permanent tongues spell or magic items can take the place of this skill.
Craft: Useless beyond flavor and prestige class requirements.
Decipher Script: Easily replicated with magic. Unfortunately there is really no point in taking this.
Profession: Useless beyond flavor and prestige class requirements.
Let me say this up front. Don't ban Abjuration
Abjuration is an amazing school for Enchanters. There are some great debuffs, and there are some great utility/buff spells. Courtesy of TreantMonks Guide
Abjuration School
Level 1
Protection From X (PHB) (:thumbsup
(Buff): This is by far the single most annoying and appreciated spell by an enchanter. On the one hand, improved AC, Saves, protection against enchantment spells (nothing worse than an enchanter being enchanted). On the other hand, it gives the exact same benefits to enemies when they use it... this will be a recurring theme of the Abjuration school...
Protection From X (PHB) (:thumbsup
(Buff): This is by far the single most annoying and appreciated spell by an enchanter. On the one hand, improved AC, Saves, protection against enchantment spells (nothing worse than an enchanter being enchanted). On the other hand, it gives the exact same benefits to enemies when they use it... this will be a recurring theme of the Abjuration school... Actually... TreantMonk's Guide is pretty much spot on where it concerns Conjuration spells. Conjuration rarely contains a good debuffing spell, so pretty much an Enchanter's only use for Conjuration is 1.) Summoning BBEG's to submit to your will, or 2.) Battlefield control when your Enchantments are not an option (which will be far more often than any Enchanter is willing to admit).
Tsuyoshi's Guide is my reference guide for these spells that are good specifically for enchantment synergy... though there aren't many...
Divination School
Level 1
Guided Shot (SpC) (Buff): (:evillaugh) Swift action negate cover/concealment, make sure that ranged touch uber-debuff goes off without a hitch.
True Strike (PHB) (Buff): (:evillaugh) Make sure that debuff hits without a hitch.
True Casting (CM) (Buff): (:evillaugh) Make sure that SOD Gets past their SR
Guided Shot (SpC) (Buff): (:evillaugh) Swift action negate cover/concealment, make sure that ranged touch uber-debuff goes off without a hitch.
True Strike (PHB) (Buff): (:evillaugh) Make sure that debuff hits without a hitch.
True Casting (CM) (Buff): (:evillaugh) Make sure that SOD Gets past their SR
Illusion by far synergizes best with an Enchanter, and in my opinion should never be banned either. TreantMonk's Guide
Illusion School
Level 1
Silent Image (PHB) (BC or Utility): (:evillaugh) This spell allows you to create pretty much anything – and the opponent only gets a save if they interact with it. This is a great spell, though not as great for an enchanter as other types of spells. It still is a must memorize probably 1/day.
Silent Image (PHB) (BC or Utility): (:evillaugh) This spell allows you to create pretty much anything – and the opponent only gets a save if they interact with it. This is a great spell, though not as great for an enchanter as other types of spells. It still is a must memorize probably 1/day.
Courtesy of TreantMonk's Guide
Necromancy School
Level 1
nothing
nothing
This list is pulled from my own Knowledge, and CantripN's Guide to Transmutation Spells
Transmutation School
Level 1
Nerveskitter (SpC) (:evillaugh) - "It helps you win Initiative. That's pure WIN, right there!" This is essentially correct. Except that, as an Enchanter, it is even MORE vital that you go first. A Controller is a Save-or-Die (here to referred to as SOD) Caster. A Controller MUST go first.
Nerveskitter (SpC) (:evillaugh) - "It helps you win Initiative. That's pure WIN, right there!" This is essentially correct. Except that, as an Enchanter, it is even MORE vital that you go first. A Controller is a Save-or-Die (here to referred to as SOD) Caster. A Controller MUST go first.
With Focused Specialist Enchanter, you have to ban 3 schools.. that's too many for an enchanter that relies on other schools to augment his enchantments. As such, I do not recommend ever going Focused Specialist Enchanter.
Always go specialist, as opposed to focused specialist.
Here are the ranks of schools in order of importance to an Enchanter, in my opinion:
Abjuration - Dispel Magic is Far too important to ever ban this school for an enchanter.
Transmutation - Celerity + Lesser Spell Matrix
Conjuration - Unparalleled Battlefield control when enchantments won't work. Party Taxi.
Illusion - Combination Debuffing, Battlefield Control with a Dash of Blaster thrown in for good measure
Necromancy- Excellent Debuffing, More save or dies that target fortitude.
Divination- A couple excellent spells, can't be banned
Evocation - Blaster type... this is diametrically opposed to how an enchanter operates and should always be banned.
So when specializing in enchantments, you always start off by banning evocation, then ask yourself what you are willing to give up.
Ask yourself: "What do I give up when I ban (insert school here) that I cannot replicate with any other school?"
Abjuration - Every Single Dispel Magic spell. Lots of protections against your own worst enemy (Having Enchantments used against you).
Conjuration- You give up 7th, 8th, 9th level Conjuration Spells. 1-6th levels can be mimicked by Shadow Conjuration. This means you lose a little battlefield control/versatility at 7th/8th/9th levels. However Conjuration spells at this level tend to not be as useful as spells from Abjuration/Transmutation/Illusion. Plus you will not get as many spells at this level, and you will usually want at least 2 or 3 spots dedicated to enchantment spells at each level. This should often be considered as a school to be banned, for an enchanter.
Illusion- This school gives you invisibility, Shadow Evocation, Shadow Conjuration and the xxxxxx Image line of spells. Too useful to an Enchanter to be banned.
Necromancy- Levels 2-6 give way too many critical debuffing spells. Only if you must have both Conjuration and Transmutation...
Transmutation- Excellent high level spell selection. Awesome party buffs for those encounters where you don't have anything else to do. Celerity + Spell Matrix make this school almost impossible to ban unless you are going for pure flavor (for example an Enchanter that banned conjuration and transmutation)
It seems as though the school that you can give up the easiest, would be Conjuration. You often can cover the difference with Shadow Conjuration from illusion, and some of the battlefield control you lose with Conjuration at high level spells can still be replicated with Illusions.
That being said... here is a favorite character of mine. 20th level...
Sample #1 20th Level Enchanter
Randy: Male Gray Elf Wiz3/MstS4/Sha1/Mnb1/FtS4/Wiz+2/Acm4/FtS+1
Neutral Evil
HD20d4; hp 103
init +5; spd 30ft
AC 26 (+8 Armor; +5 dex, +3 deflection)
Base atk/Grapple +8/+8
Special Abilities/Qualities: Enchanter Specialist, High Arcana (Arcane Reach, Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Shaping, Spell-like Ability), Spin Fate, Fickle Finger of Fate, Spin Destiny, Deny Fate, Resist Fate, Seal Fate, Telepathy, Expanded Spellbook, Minor School Esoterica (Enchantment).
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +27
Str 9 (-1), Dex 20 (+5), Con 14(+2), Int 31 (+10), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 14 (+2);
Skills: Bluff +11, Concentration +25, Craft (Trapmaking) +16, (Armorsmithing) +16, (Weaponsmithing) +16, Diplomacy +15, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +33, (Religion) +17, (The Planes) +18, Perform (Pantomime) +4, Profession (Gambler) +12, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +38
Feats:
Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Enchantment, Necromancy), Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Construct, Scribe Scroll, Fey heritage, Fey Power, Shadow Weave Magic, Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Tenacious Magic
Possessions:
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Ring of Protection +3
Gloves of Dexterity +4
Headband of Intellect +6
Veil of Allure
Cloak of Resistance +5
Amulet of Second Chances
Vest of the Archmagi
Boots of Elvenkind
Runestaff of the Controller
+4 Mithral Shirt (Twilight, Deathward)
Hewards Handy Haversack
Randy is accompanied by a Mithral Guardian at all times. It is enhanced to 25HD, Making it Huge rather than large.
Randy: Male Gray Elf Wiz3/MstS4/Sha1/Mnb1/FtS4/Wiz+2/Acm4/FtS+1
Neutral Evil
HD20d4; hp 103
init +5; spd 30ft
AC 26 (+8 Armor; +5 dex, +3 deflection)
Base atk/Grapple +8/+8
Special Abilities/Qualities: Enchanter Specialist, High Arcana (Arcane Reach, Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Shaping, Spell-like Ability), Spin Fate, Fickle Finger of Fate, Spin Destiny, Deny Fate, Resist Fate, Seal Fate, Telepathy, Expanded Spellbook, Minor School Esoterica (Enchantment).
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +27
Str 9 (-1), Dex 20 (+5), Con 14(+2), Int 31 (+10), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 14 (+2);
Skills: Bluff +11, Concentration +25, Craft (Trapmaking) +16, (Armorsmithing) +16, (Weaponsmithing) +16, Diplomacy +15, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +33, (Religion) +17, (The Planes) +18, Perform (Pantomime) +4, Profession (Gambler) +12, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +38
Feats:
Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Enchantment, Necromancy), Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Construct, Scribe Scroll, Fey heritage, Fey Power, Shadow Weave Magic, Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Tenacious Magic
Possessions:
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Ring of Protection +3
Gloves of Dexterity +4
Headband of Intellect +6
Veil of Allure
Cloak of Resistance +5
Amulet of Second Chances
Vest of the Archmagi
Boots of Elvenkind
Runestaff of the Controller
+4 Mithral Shirt (Twilight, Deathward)
Hewards Handy Haversack
Randy is accompanied by a Mithral Guardian at all times. It is enhanced to 25HD, Making it Huge rather than large.
I also hoped you'd alphabetize the spell schools and give page numbers for the spells you reference, such as SpC 46.
Finally, I appreciate your efforts, but what about PrCs? You can make a case for whether to be a gray elf generalist with the Races of the Wild substitution levels. What're the worths of Master Specialist, Incantatrix, Archmage, and Fatespinner for an enchanter?
Alphabetizing the spell schools won't be difficult at all. If that will give a better feel, then I can certainly do that.
Heh, just going back and looking at it again, I went beserk on Abjuration... probably just a weeeeeeeeeee tiny bit over the top. I'll go through and fix that tonight or tomorrow
What're the worths of Master Specialist, Incantatrix, Archmage, and Fatespinner for an enchanter?
Concerning the Prc's you listed, those have been talked about to death, and Zarzak went over those well in his own guide. I didn't feel the need to go over them again, however I certainly can if the redundancy would help (not switching back and forth between the guides as much.)
However you shouldn't just be looking into the CantripN & TreantMonk's Guides. They go over the best over-all spells which are not necessarily the "best" when working in conjunction with Enchantment.
Anyway just two suggestions to add to the spell lists: Polymorph & Shapechange.
Many, many creatures have Dominate or Charm X as spell-like or supernatural abilities. So the cost of a 4th level spell or 9th level as the case may be will grant you an additional number of castings per day.
The Assume Supernatural Ability feat may also be useful with polymorph if you have the feats to spare. Saves a 9th level spell per day at very lest.
Keep up the good work.
How does a summoned monster using Dominate work exactly?
How does a summoned monster using Dominate work exactly?
Typically if you Bind a Planar Ally, and then F*** with it to end the spell, it gets mad at you, and tries to kill you... however if you trap it first, nerf the hell out of it, then Dominate it, you have a Planar Ally, Dominated, and can make it do what you want, without having to pay it an exorbitant fee..
Also, I take from their lists, and I also go over spells from SpC, Core/Complete, that they didn't include in their lists, just double checking.
Note also that I give different ratings for spells from each school, based on their synergy with Enchantments, not based on their effectiveness alone.
Typically if you Bind a Planar Ally, and then F*** with it to end the spell, it gets mad at you, and tries to kill you... however if you trap it first, nerf the hell out of it, then Dominate it, you have a Planar Ally, Dominated, and can make it do what you want, without having to pay it an exorbitant fee..
No I mean what if you use Summon monster IV (for example) and summon something that does have Dominate and have it use it's ability on the Orc.
Specificlly with Summon not Planar Ally.
No I mean what if you use Summon monster IV (for example) and summon something that does have Dominate and have it use it's ability on the Orc.
Specificlly with Summon not Planar Ally.
The spell effect would end once the Summon goes away.
The spell effect would end once the Summon goes away.
Could you point us to the rules text on that? Typically, if magic is on a creature, it doesn't just go away (thus, Enlarge Person still effects a creature whose type changed for some reason to something besides humanoid).
Great guide; potential to be really great (if for example, the additional spells are considered).
Could you point us to the rules text on that? Typically, if magic is on a creature, it doesn't just go away (thus, Enlarge Person still effects a creature whose type changed for some reason to something besides humanoid).
I am not done examining spells from each school, it was easiest to simply get these lists up and running, and then go back when I have time to examine less common source material.
From the SRD;
"Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane."
A summoned monster, once it goes away, disappears from our plane. RAW would indicate the dominated creature would no longer be under the control of the summoned monster that cast the spell, though if that creature happened to return to your plane, when there was still a duration remaining on the spell, he would be allowed to attempt to re-establish control, (though I would grant the subject a will save to resist this re-establishment). Further still, RAI, at least in my group, is that the spell effect ends when the creature and it's thrall are separated by different planes, to the effect that if you return to the same plane after dominating something, the spell effect has ended and you wouldn't even be able to try and establish control again.
I've yet to see a detailed account on how to use Charm Monster to profitably create and use thralls- this seems more difficult than the usage of Dominate Person. Since you list Charm Monster as one of the absolutely essential spells to pack in the Runestaff, I was wondering if you would care to elaborate on how to get the most mileage from this amazing spell?
Certainly, I'll do so here, and throw it up into the tactics section.
Charm Monster:
This charm makes a [creature of any size and HD] regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the [monster] as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
I notice now that I completely forgot to add Perform - Pantomime to my list of essential skills. that is one part of getting good mileage out of Charm Person/Monster. If for some reason you don't speak the language, a Perform Check (DC 5 for Intelligent Monsters, DC 10 for unintelligent monsters, this is our house rule for the DC on a Perform check, since it's an inherent part of the magic of the Charm Spell) will allow you to give it commands. (Scaling in complexity with how well you do on your pantomime check)
Charm Monster will by far get the most mileage out of unintelligent monsters. This would be most of your Magical Beasts, all of your Animals, and some other creatures. They will regard you as friendly for the duration of the spell. Treat them right, feed them, treat them like a broodling (you are the alpha, they are a part of your pack, that kind of thing), have them follow you around, protect them from harm as you do, and it becomes easier and easier to convince them with a charisma check to do increasingly suicidal things in order to protect your life. A Charm Monster at the beginning of a battle is a Save or Die spell. Any creature that fails is your friend, and you can essentially command it to sit out the battle, if it's part of a pack of creatures. If it's part of a random mix, you can command it to begin attacking it's former allied monsters, simply because they look a hell of a lot more like "food" than allies.
Then when the effect of the spell wears off, often times (unless your DM is a total jerk) their attitude has adjusted to friendly, trusted ally, without the use of magic. Continue to have them follow you around with charisma checks, acting as pack leader. They will always be willing to "Protect you", that order is very nearly never a suicidal one. Most times a "Protect my allies" will be a non-suicidal order as well. Often times, if the monster is a predatory creature in the first place telling a charmed monster to "Hunt, kill" and pointing to something specific, will sound like a good idea, and the monster will bring back the dead thing in it's jaws like a trophy for the pack leader.
Charm is more difficult in some ways to use on intelligent creatures. Ask your DM if you can Substitute Bluff and Diplomacy in place of a standard Charisma check, explaining that creatures need to be convinced to help you out in some manner anyways, and this is done with a bluff against unfriendly creatures, and diplomacy against friendlies. So why would it all of the sudden simply change to a charisma check once they are under the influence of your spell?
Regardless, an order to "Protect Me!" would hardly ever be considered suicidal by an intelligent creature. With a decent diplomacy check, or bluff check, (more often diplomacy) you can convince an intelligent creature that you are a more important friend and ally than those who had originally started to attack you. This will cause them to start harassing if not outright defending you from the lethal threats of their allies. An excellent diplomacy check in our world also causes the creature to regard my allies as friends and trusted allies as well.
With Intelligent monsters, continued use of Charm and Diplomacy in the right situations, combined with the Leadership feat, can get you a cohort of appropriately higher levels than just Leadership alone would get you (subject to DM approval) and will also get you much more followers than just Diplomacy and Leadership alone. If the creature is a mercenary type, fighting and killing for money, a Diplomacy check could convince a creature to adventure with you instead of it's former party, seeing you as a more profitable group. If the creature is a guard type, like a gate guard, a good diplomacy check could convince the creature that being your bodyguard will be far more profitable than guarding some stupid gate or door. Always offer payment at first, and then when you start splitting small amounts of your swag (a rather low price to pay for a "trusted ally") with the charmed thrall (remember this is only for intelligent stuff) they start to see the profit in your offer without even getting a stipend.
Charm Person and Charm Monster are far more useful in city settings, where you don't necessarily want to start a brawl with someone or something, rather you simply want them to assist you in some manner. For example often times I'll charm guards and have them keep their ears open for information about that "evil party of criminals, information like warrants, whether or not a description has been set out" things like that. While obviously this is not the same level of control as you can get out of Dominate Person/Monster, it is however far more than you would initially get out of an unfriendly creature.
One important thing to remember with Charm Person and Charm Monster, is to go through the motions with your party every couple of days to show them what the spell looks and sounds like, so they can at least attempt a check to halt an attack against an enemy attacker, if they hear you cast this spell and give the creature an order. It's an extra preventative measure against breaking the spell. The same with Dominate Person/Monster.
I hope this helps...
I noticed you didn't mention Simulacrum under the Illusion school (I guess you're still working on expanding the lists; this one is a good example): for an enchanter, the hefty cost is usually worth it at high level, as the spellcaster will use like 1000 xp and 1000 gp to get, essentially, around another 30% increase in the number of dominated and charmed creatures under his control. Its a less-efficient spawn ability.
Simulacrum is expensive for a permanent half-HD thrall. The idea for this guide is more to target and highlight those spells which make enchantment spells more effective and useful. There are probably more than a few builds designed around having a large number of effigies, crafted golems, and the like, this would be more useful for those characters than for an enchanter.
Obviously this is a non-issue for Dominate Monster as it removes the humanoid restriction.
Simulacrum is expensive for a permanent half-HD thrall. The idea for this guide is more to target and highlight those spells which make enchantment spells more effective and useful. There are probably more than a few builds designed around having a large number of effigies, crafted golems, and the like, this would be more useful for those characters than for an enchanter.
That thrall can cast more spells, though, meaning more charmed and dominated creatures. But if you don't want to include it, thats fine... I think its worth a mention.
That thrall can cast more spells, though, meaning more charmed and dominated creatures. But if you don't want to include it, thats fine... I think its worth a mention.
I presume you are thinking that you would create a simulacrum of yourself? Or some other creature that can cast Dominate/Charm? Unfortunately, for the cost of the spell, losing half your Caster Level/HD is a huge loss for dominate/charm.
Slightly more valuable in this manner, but still very expensive... :-S
I presume you are thinking that you would create a simulacrum of yourself? Or some other creature that can cast Dominate/Charm? Unfortunately, for the cost of the spell, losing half your Caster Level/HD is a huge loss for dominate/charm.
Slightly more valuable in this manner, but still very expensive... :-S
I don't think its that expensive: at ECL20, thats 1000 gp, and 1000 xp. Thats 1/760th of one's wealth, and 1/190th of one's XP. In the games I've played in, casters pop a Gate for that xp every other combat!
And, that'll get a thrall with Charm Monster and Dominate Person, and Mind Fog, and Feeblemind... any 5th level or lower spells. Let the simulacrum take over your soon not-as-useful thralls.
I totally think its worth it to have 1-2 of them around.
I don't think its that expensive: at ECL20, thats 1000 gp, and 1000 xp. Thats 1/760th of one's wealth, and 1/190th of one's XP. In the games I've played in, casters pop a Gate for that xp every other combat!
And, that'll get a thrall with Charm Monster and Dominate Person, and Mind Fog, and Feeblemind... any 5th level or lower spells. Let the simulacrum take over your soon not-as-useful thralls.
I totally think its worth it to have 1-2 of them around.
Hmmm... I don't know... It still doesn't seem worth it to me. Problems arise with the difficulty to save against spells being reduced. I mean, as an Enchanter, you leveled up for a reason, at 20th level, a few 5th level orcs (which is all you could reasonably expect to maintain control over as a 10th level caster), isn't going to do much for you.
Simulacrum would be far more valuable if it was just 1 HD/ECL lower, and 10000xp/20000gp. I'd rate it much higher.
Hmmm... I don't know... It still doesn't seem worth it to me. Problems arise with the difficulty to save against spells being reduced. I mean, as an Enchanter, you leveled up for a reason, at 20th level, a few 5th level orcs (which is all you could reasonably expect to maintain control over as a 10th level caster), isn't going to do much for you.
Simulacrum would be far more valuable if it was just 1 HD/ECL lower, and 10000xp/20000gp. I'd rate it much higher.
I'm just asking for a note of it as a useful spell. The Simulacrum creates a double... well, that includes the same stats. So, the saves aren't going to be that much worse. But, I'm suggesting using it for extending your thrall army. Command that dominated creature to fail its save, then let your Simulacrum Dominate it. Voila - one more free slot on the main! Continue as desired.
Plus, use them for all sorts of other shenanigans, too.
I'm just asking for a note of it as a useful spell. The Simulacrum creates a double... well, that includes the same stats. So, the saves aren't going to be that much worse. But, I'm suggesting using it for extending your thrall army. Command that dominated creature to fail its save, then let your Simulacrum Dominate it. Voila - one more free slot on the main! Continue as desired.
Plus, use them for all sorts of other shenanigans, too.
Yeah, I can see it's usefulness in certain situations. I'll throw it up on the list and give it a rating.
I don't know if this has been discussed in a thread here on CO, if it has been debated, etc... but as far as I'm aware you cannot command something to intentionally fail a save...
I think thats one of the old "the rules don't say I can't, therefore I can" issues. I don't really see anything wrong with it (though, as per Dominate, in this case, the creature might be able to break the original Dominate).
If I were DM'ing, I'd say the creature gets his save every time to avoid being Dominated, whether it's a new one or re-establishing control after a protection from X spell ends, and I want to abuse Dominate as much as possible because I'm an evil man...
The creature is still aware of what is going on, thus the resistance. The creature gets a will save to do things it wouldn't ordinarily do, indicating it is still aware, trapped essentially inside it's own body while you control it. Thus it would not only get a save against "Fail your next save" but it would also get a save against your spell, regardless of succeeding or failing the save to not do whatever you told it to do.
I would say it's actually more beneficial to not tell it to fail it's save, one less chance for it to succeed...
Simulacrum: Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. It requires a caster level boost like from Archmage or an Orange Ioun Stone, but by level 20 you can get a pet gold dragon to cast level 9 spells at CL19 as well as spells from the Law, Good, and Luck domains as arcane spells. Go go arcane miracle!
If I were DM'ing, I'd say the creature gets his save every time to avoid being Dominated, whether it's a new one or re-establishing control after a protection from X spell ends, and I want to abuse Dominate as much as possible because I'm an evil man...
The creature is still aware of what is going on, thus the resistance. The creature gets a will save to do things it wouldn't ordinarily do, indicating it is still aware, trapped essentially inside it's own body while you control it. Thus it would not only get a save against "Fail your next save" but it would also get a save against your spell, regardless of succeeding or failing the save to not do whatever you told it to do.
I would say it's actually more beneficial to not tell it to fail it's save, one less chance for it to succeed...
Depends on the creature, I guess. No spellcraft? Bluff to tell him its a buff spell, ie "Don't resist this spell which should make you stronger."
Anyways, this is probably enough off-topic already...
Simulacrum: Solar. You effectively get a level 20 cleric who can fly and smack stuff.
Simulacrum: Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. It requires a caster level boost like from Archmage or an Orange Ioun Stone, but by level 20 you can get a pet gold dragon to cast level 9 spells at CL19 as well as spells from the Law, Good, and Luck domains as arcane spells. Go go arcane miracle!
A solar simulacrum would have 11 HD. I would grant it any SLA that are 6th level or lower spells. I would allow it to cast 6th level spells...
Same thing with a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon... it would have the HD abilities and skills and feats and spellcasting and what not, of a dragon with half of it's HD, making it a young adult gold dragon, or whatever...
Just because you make a simulacrum of something that casts wish. the simulacrum has 1/2 the HD and has appropriately fewer and cooler abilities...
Depends on the creature, I guess. No spellcraft? Bluff to tell him its a buff spell, ie "Don't resist this spell which should make you stronger."
Anyways, this is probably enough off-topic already...
I don't mind the question. I think the way it works is that the subject resists the magic of the spell to take control telepathically (thus a will save). Even telling him to "intentionally fail" and succeeding on a bluff check, he'd be like "ok, I'm about to get stronger, or smarter, or whatever" and then he'd feel some weird magic in his mind taking control away from him and inherently resist. I'd go so far as to say that the nature of the spell doesn't ALLOW someone to intentionally fail, such is the level of control exerted once they do fail. Basically everything resists this control so resolutely that you cannot intentionally fail a dominate save.
Simulacrum: Solar. You effectively get a level 20 cleric who can fly and smack stuff.
Simulacrum: Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. It requires a caster level boost like from Archmage or an Orange Ioun Stone, but by level 20 you can get a pet gold dragon to cast level 9 spells at CL19 as well as spells from the Law, Good, and Luck domains as arcane spells. Go go arcane miracle!
A solar simulacrum would have 11 HD. I would grant it any SLA that are 6th level or lower spells. I would allow it to cast 6th level spells...
Same thing with a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon... it would have the HD abilities and skills and feats and spellcasting and what not, of a dragon with half of it's HD, making it a young adult gold dragon, or whatever...
Just because you make a simulacrum of something that casts wish. the simulacrum has 1/2 the HD and has appropriately fewer and cooler abilities...
You'd have to have an appropriately epic level creature to be able to mimic a 19th level caster. (So that 38HD dragon would be appropriate I suppose...). But then you run into the issue of having one sit still long enough for you to copy it with a simulacrum... I doubt a Solar or a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon would appreciate it very much...
And...
Succeeding on a Saving Throw
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
So, thats if the creature succeeded. It doesn't say whether he knows if he fails. Either way, its retroactive (ie, the subject doesn't know that they should resist until afterwards).
Look in the Angel entry under Planetar. Planetars have 14 HD but cast as level 17 clerics. Spellcasting ability is not directly related to HD.
True... HD and Spellcasting are not directly related.
however:
"Simulacrum (SRD)
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)"
Which means I would rule as a DM (and have had a couple DM's rule the same way...) that their spellcasting ability is also cut in half, as appropriate
EDIT: Anyways, I've seen that you included it, which is all I wanted. Its your guide, but I'd be happier if you put a disclaimer about the thumbs down, since there's controversy (seems like most of us really like it).
Also, the Mother Cyst feat from Libris Mortis offers a fantastic 7th level spell that can make a creature your permanent slave. You also have to land a 2nd level spell on them first, but still... potentially unlimited permanent slaves for no cost (other than the feat and a few spell slots).