With the changes on the boards since 4th edition came, I'm not sure where to post this. But I'll give it a go.
Were a group of 5 * 17th level character, that is powerful above average. THe DM keeps reminding us about that, and he has a point. But he also has a tendency to overreact, buff up the DR and getting us killed.
the scenario: were up against a 20+level mage, that has all kinds of alliances, including with a BALOR. We just know we'll be up against this monster....and it even might be in combo with the 20+ mage himself.
I'm worried. I think were a 17th level group (druid, paladin/cleric/fist of Raz, rogue/ranger/SS, sorceror, fighter/dwarven def) that can take a CR 18 or CR19....but against a BALOR I'm not so sure.
Should I be worried? Do you have ideas how to deal with this (tactics)?
in the campaign I DM our party is relatively optimized, they regularly beat CR 20+ encounters with little problem. Granted, the monster manual badly rates the challenge of many monsters, especially MM1+2
Your sorc and cleric should easily be able to get rid of a balor using Assay Resistance and Banishment
if your party is smart they can smash a balor np. an epic wizard should be much more challenging however if played well.
in the campaign I DM our party is relatively optimized, they regularly beat CR 20+ encounters with little problem. Granted, the monster manual badly rates the challenge of many monsters, especially MM1+2
Your sorc and cleric should easily be able to get rid of a balor using Assay Resistance and Banishment
the cleric is more warrior than caster (max 5th level spells) and I've got the feeling that we're going to meet this Balor on it's home plane: so no Banishment
Anticipate teleportation/greater is a nice spell you should have when fighting anything that can teleport at will.
As far as the CR system goes, your party would be around CR 22. If your equipment is over the given limits, you'd be CR23 as an encounter. So a lone Balor shouldn't really be much of a challenge. However, with some of the characters being pretty much worthless on those levels (especially the Dwarven Defender), it would again be closer to 22.
Your biggest advantage is the simple action economy - since you have so many more characters, you can do so much more per turn. Your biggest weakness is longetivity - Balor has most of its powerful SLAs At Will, so it can keep throwing them at you. So it's in your advantage to take the thing out fast. If at all possible, Anticipate Teleport is indeed an awesome spell. If you can prepare a trap for it when it tries to teleport in, you've already won (Anti-Magic Field, surround it with melee, Grapple/Trip it and pummel it into submission - the Anti-Magic Field is the key because otherwise you're all dead). So here's the basic to-do list:
-Have Teleport protections online to prevent it from simply jumping in and TPKing you all.
-Try to keep stuff like Mindblank active on all characters at all times - it has many nasty things that screw with your mind.
-If it doesn't Teleport right next to you and thus get caught in the Anticipate Teleport-trap, have your casters engage it with longrange Save or Die-spells (coupled with Assay Resistance); you can toss more of those than it can and you can afford few failed spells, so the probabilities dictate (provided maximized casting stats for high DCs) that you'll win the spell-slinging contest assuming that your Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric are prepared (he can still contribute even though he isn't that good of a caster).
-While Casters engage it with spells, have melee try to close in on it. If successful, you may be able to force it to expend actions on either trying to escape or on attacking the melee. Either way, you can try to divert its attention away from the targets that matter.
-If it engages you at a distance and your melee has a chance to surround it (including some way of making sure it can't fly away), use Dimensional Lock. If you can force it to stay put, you've pretty much already won as you can bring the useless characters to bear.
-Don't bother Banishing it. If it's in league with a high-level mage, it'll take about 12 seconds until it's right back on your plane.
-If it engages you in melee, Anti-Magic Field up immediately, try to prevent its movement (Wall of Force can exist in AMF and could be used to stop it from flying away) and smash to bits. If you fail to AMF, it can just activate Blasphemy and TPK you with no save (this will only Daze and Weaken you - however, if it does catch the whole party, it can just repeatedly use Blasphemy until you all drop to 0 Str and then Coup de Grace you, or summon a friend, have the friend keep Blasphemying you while the other walks around beating you to death one by one). So trying to catch it in AMF is a good idea.
In short:
-In melee, AMF, surround, kill.
-At range, trade spells, distract, kill.
If you face both, the 20+ mage and the Balor at once, pray to god your DM doesn't know how to make most out of the Mage's repertoire or you'll be chopped liver. What kind of spell restrictions are at place?
You might want to play it safe with an Antimagic Field and smash the thing to bits. Balors are nasty melee combatants, but allowing it to teleport around the battlefield, making hit-and-run attacks with SLAs usable at will is unacceptable. One thing to worry about will be the Death Throes, though!
antimagic: our sorcereror will be able to cas this spell: but giving that to him is not really that usefull (more desastrous really). The Cleric/Fist is our main meleeman and can only cast 5th level cleric spells.
I'm indeed worried about the teleport at will and it's spell like abilities (partly at will). I want to fix the beast in place (no teleport): is there a spell for that?
death throughs: isn't that the ability that he explodes when he's dying? .... i understand it gives 100ponts of damage: that's bout half of out HP's
Yeah, just be sure you have more than 100 hp left when he dies
Anticipate teleportation/greater is a nice spell you should have when fighting anything that can teleport at will.
ah, that's a really nice spell from SpC with a 24hr duration. !!
But it's a spell tat delays teleportation for 3 rds 'into' the area...not when a creatures teleports 'out' . I was hoping to find something that keeps it fixed in place (besides flying) so our warriors can approach and keep hitting it (the charge fomr the Paladin/Fist is powerfull)
but then again: maybe the best tactic is to stay out of range and let the druid and sorceror do all the work from a safe distance. Hmmmmm
Dimensional anchor to avoid more teleportations.
If you can get a Dimensional Anchor to resolve, you could've already killed it if that spell had been a save-or-die. Really, the easiest way to kill it is to Finger of Death/Dominate/whatever it until it fails a save. Stuff that ignores SR is obviously plus, but Assay Resistance makes its SR pretty much a non-issue.
okay, thanks a lot for you comments.
so in short:
1. keep at range
2. let the casters cast save or die (prefererrably) spells with 'assay spell resistance'....protect yourself with 'Anticipate teleportation/greater'
3. distract the balor with melee, from attacking the casters: summoned creature scan be really helpfull. (useing the Rogue, DD and Pal/Fist can be risky)
when getting closer:
1. use the 3 rounds wisely .,... AMF will help when he does arrive: but it will help the melee-warriors only
2. ----> any more tips when in melee? or how to use the 3 ronds you get?
AMF looks more and more promising.
If you have access to book of Exalted deeds then that opens up some options like, with the Gate spell you could summon Raziel, The Crusader from Celestia, who will mop the floor with a Balor. Even in core only a Solar can probably do that job.
I have the BoED, but can't find the spell. What page?
Thanks!
spell is Gate in the Player's Handbook
The wizard has very likely used this spell to get a pact with the Balor. We can do the same with a Solar orso, but it might be a bit lame.
I don't think the wizard used gate, maybe a malconvoker using greater planar binding.
so in short:
1. keep at range
2. let the casters cast save or die (prefererrably) spells with 'assay spell resistance'....protect yourself with 'Anticipate teleportation/greater'
3. distract the balor with melee, from attacking the casters: summoned creature scan be really helpfull. (useing the Rogue, DD and Pal/Fist can be risky)
when getting closer:
1. use the 3 rounds wisely .,... AMF will help when he does arrive: but it will help the melee-warriors only
2. ----> any more tips when in melee? or how to use the 3 ronds you get?
I'm still looking for tactics for when a Balor decides to enter melee. Any ideas how we can use the 3 rounds wisely? (buffing is out, because of the AMF)
THe only thing that bothers me, is that AMF is a 10ft radius centered on our Sorceror. So in order to affect the Balor, the sorceror has to stand face-to-face. THe guy has 200 HP's (yup), but placing a arcane caster face-to-face with a Balor doen't appeal to me ;) .... and then there's the 'death throes'.
(hmmm, maybe our Rogue/warrior could do it with a DC31 UMD check...even though he has only 170 hp's)
does a *readied* charge provoke AoO's when you attack a Balor after teleporting in?
you can't ready a charge action because a charge is a full round action and you can only ready a standard action,move action, or free action
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready
The Sorcerer doesn't have to use AMF. You could have the Paladin/Cleric/Sacred Fist do that with a scroll, it's a cleric spell, too (8th level, though).
Silence might be useful to negate Blasphemy if you don't want to use AMF. It stops sonic based attacks, and Blasphemy has the [Sonic] descriptor. Could be useful.
This is affirmative. Cast silence on something the melee can hold but don't mind dropping, like a coin or rock. That way they can close with the balor without worry of getting Blasphemy locked. It does prevent your clericadin from casting though, so he wouldn't get spells like Rhino's Rush that he probably uses for big damage.
Really, the best way to deal with a Balor is to turn it. Outsider HD scale poorly with CR, and any straight level cleric worth his salt can just cast a quickened Turn Anathema followed by a normal turn attempt to send the Balor cowering in the corner. Its only a 2nd level cleric spell, but I don't think Fist advances turning so his level would probably be low. Still, by dropping about 30-40k gold on gear like a Phylactery of Undead Turning and a pair of Sacred armor/shield upgrades and some other gear, he should be able to get his turn level high enough to reliably make the level 20 turn check. Then just Dim Lock, corner, and pummel the slobbering beast into oblivion. For extra humiliation, make the dwarven defender do it, because honestly, if I was a powerful outsider and got beaten by a dwarven defender, I'd kill myself on my home plane so I wouldn't have to live immortally with the humilation....
For Death Throes, either repeatedly cast energy immunity (fire) on everyone who plans on being close, or buy a medium metamagic rod of chaining (VERY solid long term investment anyway) and splash it around.
the death throes are untyped (not fire) damage so energy resistance won't help. your best bets are temporary HP, a wall of force or similiar effect, or don't be in the area when it goes off.
Oh, and Blink/Greater Blink on everybody might just let the Death Throes to be lost on your party. Or at least parts of it. Also, it's a great way to deny Dex bonuses in high-level games, and miss chances are, IMHO, much better than a high AC in high-level games, too.
Oh, and Blink/Greater Blink on everybody might just let the Death Throes to be lost on your party. Or at least parts of it. Also, it's a great way to deny Dex bonuses in high-level games, and miss chances are, IMHO, much better than a high AC in high-level games, too.
Balors have continuous True Seeing running, so (Greater) Blink gets reduced to 20% miss chance for most things. Not terrible, but you'd probably want to get something a little more effective.
This is affirmative. Cast silence on something the melee can hold but don't mind dropping, like a coin or rock. That way they can close with the balor without worry of getting Blasphemy locked. It does prevent your clericadin from casting though, so he wouldn't get spells like Rhino's Rush that he probably uses for big damage.
That's indeed a good idea. Let's say we give the DwDef such a Silence-coin (20'rad) and he's standing opposite the Fist of Raziel (Pal) on the other side of the Balor: The Fist does indeed have items and abilities that make his charge devastating (Valorous greatsword, charging smite ability, Rhino Rush spell)...but he can do without the Rhino Rush and still be great. I think, that once your in melee with a Balor, .... melee is your only option. Either he falls, or you fall.
Really, the best way to deal with a Balor is to turn it. Outsider HD scale poorly with CR, and any straight level cleric worth his salt can just cast a quickened Turn Anathema followed by a normal turn attempt to send the Balor cowering in the corner. Its only a 2nd level cleric spell, but I don't think Fist advances turning so his level would probably be low. Still, by dropping about 30-40k gold on gear like a Phylactery of Undead Turning and a pair of Sacred armor/shield upgrades and some other gear, he should be able to get his turn level high enough to reliably make the level 20 turn check. Then just Dim Lock, corner, and pummel the slobbering beast into oblivion. For extra humiliation, make the dwarven defender do it, because honestly, if I was a powerful outsider and got beaten by a dwarven defender, I'd kill myself on my home plane so I wouldn't have to live immortally with the humilation....
good idea, but I don't know Turn Anethema and don't think we intend to use this tactic. We don't have much luck with turning.
good idea, but I don't know Turn Anethema and don't think we intend to use this tactic. We don't have much luck with turning.
Turn Anathema is in Complete Champion. Simply put, when you cast the spell, you choose an aligned portion of your alignment (non-neutral). For the next CL minutes, you can now turn creatures with the [Alignment] opposite the alignment you chose. So, a lawful good cleric/paladin could pick either good or law, and turn [Evil] or [Chaotic] creatures respectively, while a neutral good cleric could only turn [Evil] foes.
And like I said, you only need to get to 20. What's his exact level break down and cha score? With that info and whether or not Fist of Raz progresses turning, it'd be easy to know how far you'd have to stretch to get to the point where you could autoturn the balor on a roll of 1 or higher. It would be easier for a character designed to do this, but I do believe its still possible with your Fist with the investment of a little $$$.
Balor
notice:
1)he has a decent AC ... Armor Class: 35 (–1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 28..... focus on Touch Attacks(Wraithstrike, Ranged Touch Attacks, etc..) .... even if you cant make Touch attacks... AC 35 should be no problem for a 17th lvl Character
2)look at his special abilities:
Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good.... get weapons that overcome it... Force for Ranged Weapons.... best: +1 Splitting Force Holy Bow, gives lots of attacks and overcomes all DR..... there is a Reserve Feat (Weapon of Force, IIRC) that makes your Melee weapons do Force Damage
flaming body ...... be careful ... it does 6d6/round of contact... make sure you are Immune to Fire or have Fire Resistance 20(6d6 does average 14 damage, but its best to be safe and have more)
immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, and resistance to acid 10 and cold 10 ......... he has No Defenses VS Sonic... Sonic Orb or Lesser Sonic Orbs work great... since they have No SR/No Save..... Paralysis attacks also work well
spell resistance 28 ....... use spells with No Save/ No SR when possible
telepathy 100 ft., true seeing, darkvision 60 ft........ he will be able to see most things, and has Spot and Listen @ +38..... dont worry about trying to sneak up on him.... your DM might even give him MindSight(Lords of Madness)... just face him head on, but try to surround him and flank him
3)be very careful of his Spell-like abilities.... a smart DM will hurt you badly with them..... but remember this:
Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
Balors Concentration check: +33
the only one to worry about is:
Quicken Spell-Like Ability (telekinesis), .... he can do it without you being able to stop him.... but it is only 3/day..... if your DM is smart, he might adjust it to a different spell-like ability
looking at the rest:
blasphemy (DC 25)......................... you should be able to make these saves
dominate monster (DC 27) .............. as above
greater dispel magic ...................... very dangerous
greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only).... gets him out of trouble easily
insanity (DC 25) ............................ you should be able to make these saves
power word stun ........................... very dangerous against One creature with 150 hp or less
telekinesis (DC 23)......................... very dangerous
unholy aura (DC 26) ...................... very dangerous to Good creatures... they take 1d6 Str Damage each time they hit him
4) look at the sample tactics:
Tactics Round-by-Round
The balor is most effective as a ranged combatant, using its spell-like abilities to attack from a distance.
Prior to combat: Unholy aura.
Round 1: Fire storm or implosion and quickened telekinesis, or summon additional demons. If the balor does not deem itself seriously threatened, it conserves abilities usable only once per day and uses blasphemy instead.
Round 2: Insanity or power word stun.
Round 3: Full melee attack with weapons, including entangle with whip.
Round 4: Teleport or fly away with entangled foe to reestablish range; repeat round 1 and continue.
A balor who wants to drive off or neutralize a party without slaying its foes avoids lethal attacks.
Prior to combat: Unholy aura.
Round 1: Dominate monster.
Round 2: Power word stun.
Round 3: Insanity or telekinesis to incapacitate or repel a dangerous opponent.
Round 4: Teleport or fly away to reestablish range; repeat round 1 and continue.
they are very effective with Hit-and-Run tactics... those can be devastating to Parties
i would add to this a common tactic to add to either of these..... Greater Dispel Magic, Caster level 20th. before every combat to remove Buffs of enemies...or even several time to be sure... a Smart DM will use this De-buffing tactic first every time
:D
If I were a Balor though I'd take Quicken for GDM. Much nastier to dispell protective buffs and follow up with a nice killer SoD.
Now quite frankly I think it's pretty well possible to single-round a Balor with pure damage once you see him and hopefully win initiative, even at Lvl 17 - but you have to be able to dish out the punishment.
The deal here is artificial party shadowpounce: Flat-foot him by teleporting (dimension dooring) the rogue into his rear - the entire party if neccessary, or into immediate flanking positions. The teleporting characer can't attack, but everybody else can get off a full-attack. Ideally you must either all beat his initiative, or wait for him to do one round, and then do this in sequence. Of course that first round could be bad for you already.
You have to know approximately how much you can dish out, though, and you have to hit him.
One more thing to note: Generally outsiders have little protection against necromancy. Hit him with the most metamagicked enervation you can muster, or something like that, and he loses A LOT of threat potential. I think even his CL for his SLAs should go down if you hit him with negative levels. You could also do the good old Heroics trick: Give him Mage-Slayer. I'm AFB, though, so I can't verify that this works for his CL for SLAs, but I think it does.
Blasphemy doesn't get a save.
depends on where you attack it... on its home plane, you could be sent home(banished) unless you make a Will Save DC 25.... all the other effects have no save..... it is possible the DM has used Planar Bubble or has his lair in another Dimension/Plane
If I were a Balor though I'd take Quicken for GDM. Much nastier to dispell protective buffs and follow up with a nice killer SoD.
thats what i was thinking ....
One more thing to note: Generally outsiders have little protection against necromancy. Hit him with the most metamagicked enervation you can muster, or something like that, and he loses A LOT of threat potential. I think even his CL for his SLAs should go down if you hit him with negative levels. You could also do the good old Heroics trick: Give him Mage-Slayer. I'm AFB, though, so I can't verify that this works for his CL for SLAs, but I think it does.
Mage Slayer does specify that it affects Spell-like abilities
:D
druid.............................. Dire Tiger Wildshape Form... charge and Grapple
paladin/cleric/fist of Raz ... Buff and Melee attack
rogue/ranger/SS ............. DD and Flank as Brainpiercing said
sorceror ........................ Dimensional Anchor!! first and Sonic Orb or Enervation until dead
fighter/dwarven def ......... Charge and melee
:D
How: If the Balor cannot cast defensively anymore it must Concentrate against the damage done by AoOs. Hence, hit it for enough pain, and it'll never teleport, or do other things, either. Even if the damage isn't added up, if everyone hits it for one try of using an SLA, that's so many Conc checks it has to pass that one will eventually fail. You will need to do a fair amount of damage that this will reliably work (at least 20 points per hit to even get over it's skill of 33), but it's definitely not bad to have, even if you ONLY do damage that way. Since it'll be aware that it won't be able to cast defensively, it might not even try to cast, which is even better.
This is potentially better than Dimensional Anchor, because that gets a save, and as was said before, an SoD is clearly better. But if you enervate it at range to soften it up, its skills will go down, too. Once you've boxed it in, hit it with something like Waves of Exhaustion, so that it won't be able to reliably fly away from you, either.
On another note entirely, how about KILLING IT SOFTLY?
Here's the deal: Hit it with Dimensional Anchor. Hit it with Heroics(MageSlayer). Then catch it in an elemental air Monolith. Your druid should be able to summon one. It has to make a fricking natural 20 to escape (if it's a standard balor), and you can pummel it with spells (not rays, I guess, at range, targetted only) while it's caught. Keep the whirlwind off the ground to avoid creating the dust cloud. The Balor will only take 4D6 damage/round from the whirlwind, but hey, better than nothing. If it escapes, the monolith is plenty fast enough to catch it again. It also has a snowball's chance in hell of killing the monolith. It CAN dispell it, unfortunately, that's why you've hit it with Heroics. It can Dominate it, but again, it's CL is now 16, which means it shouldn't be able to use 9th level SLAs
, so no Dominate Monster.That would really be a pretty funny way of dealing with it.
Then again, seriously, if Dimensional Anchor can get through, then Finger of Death can, too. Unless you can get off two Dim. Anchor's in a round it's not really worthwhile. Your Druid can also SoD it by hitting with Drown (SpC), for instance (there might be others). He can't cast Assay Resistance, though. If he gets through SR, however, he has potentially better chances of getting through due to Owl's Insight. His Wis should be somewhere just below 41, so the DC should be at or just below 31+Spell Focus (for Drown). Not bad, IMHO, for level 17, about a 50% chance, if he gets close enough.
Do some research and find his True Name...and take him out before you face the wizard.
Why exactly is 'telekinesis' so dangerous? Okay, it's a free action, but in battle it can be spend on one big thrush to topple a couple of opponents over (and do some damage) and on maneuvers like trip and grapple once per round.
Okay, It's disruptive and really annoying...but is it really that dangerous?
(BTW, I'm not familiar with truenames and what we can do with them: i get the idea, but don't know the mechanics)
I am just waking up and I cannot remember all the crap you can do with True Names...but check out Planar Binding.
Finding the true name will be work and you will have to employ powerful divination...or potentially a Yugoloth...
Also just taking a shot in the dark but if you know where it is going be be "appearing" when it teleports you can have a incredible heavy object fall on it through the use of telekinesis. Which would be rather messy and gooey and could potentially make your DM cry.
Also just taking a shot in the dark but if you know where it is going be be "appearing" when it teleports you can have a incredible heavy object fall on it through the use of telekinesis. Which would be rather messy and gooey and could potentially make your DM cry.
No, I meant the Balor using Telekinesis on US. It's a free action for him.
USe the Anticipate Teleport to get everyone into position. Drop a coin of silence on that point to foil any attempt at Blasphemy.
Make sure everyone has weapons that can punch through its DR.
You can ready a partial charge...it's explicitly allowed in the rules, just like it is for a suprise round. So your charging paladin should be able to put a hurting on it. If you're worried about Reach...ENlarge the paladin, silly.
If you can slam him with Dimensional Anchor, that solves a lot of problems. But ideally you should be killing him in one round...your melee attackers can beat the crap out of it, right? Seriously, it's 200+ Hit point is NOT that big an obstacle at that level. You should be cranking out 30+ dmg a swing and you've got 3 attacks that should hit, especially if you are buffed and know it's coming.
Sorceror should have a quickened Greater Dispel Magic to get rid of its Unholy Aura. He should also be doing 1 of 2 things: Have Sonic or Force Orbs ready to disrupt the Balor's SLA's (if he hits, a 15d6 attack is an average of 52 pts, no way he's going to make the Concentration check) OR, have a wall of force ready to be cast the instant the balor is dealt a fatal blow (erect the wall around the balor and let it vent harmlessly skywards).
The balor's sword and whip go when it goes, don't worry about them.
Everyone should be capable of flight. If the Balor wants to do something as dumb as exchange ranged attacks, kill it at range. Death Ward takes care of Implosion (it's a death effect). Telekinesis, the easiest way around it is to simply Enlarge the party...everyone's weight will exceed the limit of the spell to move.
If it wastes a SLA to Dispel, kill it. Your melees should be able to do incredible amounts of dmg in personal combat at those levels. A Holy Demonbane Fiend Augment Crystal weapon should be hacking out +5d6 dmg to the thing with every swing.
You know its coming...punish the thing, and the horse it rides in on.
==Aelryinth
that's a lot of good ideas. Thanks.
Why exactly is 'telekinesis' so dangerous? Okay, it's a free action, but in battle it can be spend on one big thrush to topple a couple of opponents over (and do some damage) and on maneuvers like trip and grapple once per round.
Okay, It's disruptive and really annoying...but is it really that dangerous?
(BTW, I'm not familiar with truenames and what we can do with them: i get the idea, but don't know the mechanics)
hmmm ... lets see what he can do :
Telekinesis @ 20th Caster level as a Free Action
first :[indent]
Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.[/indent]
so .... if the balor can make a Concentration Check... he can maintain a Free Grapple(Grapple Check +32 +1d20= +43 average), including Pinning(you are now Helpless)... and then Coup De gras your character.... works very well vs druid(unless he has a Strong Wildshape form), paladin/cleric/fist of Raz, rogue/ranger/SS, sorceror ............which of your characters can beat that???... it effectively takes them out of the battle and does 1d4+12 damage per round
but thats not all he could do... what if he is sitting in an Armory... with lots of weapons lying around.... how about this:
[indent]
Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).[/indent]
so if he Throws 15 Greatswords(2d6)... he makes an 15 Attack Rolls @ +28+1d20 = +39 Average each ..... hope your Sorceror has a Good AC... but what if all are also Poisoned with Black Lotus Extract(Contact DC 20, 3d6 Con/ 3d6 Con)...
ouch that could hurthe could take 30d6 damage and make 15+15 fort saves vs DC 20 or take additional 3d6 Con+3d6 Con max
id say that is cause to be concerned ;)
:D
those are all wise buffs to keep ready in any case
Druid casts pounce on the rogue, someone casts greater invisibility on him. The rogue hopefully have the craven feat and uses two weapons. Toss on some wraithstrike for show. At level 17 he should now be able to kill that Balor alone I think. (assume 60 damage per hit*6=360 damage)
His weapon would be two +1 cold iron greater wounding shortswords, with some spell to make them count as good. Also cast greater magic weapon on them.
Rogues are perfect for this; you know your enemy, you probably act first and he is likely alone (or the clear main threat).
The Darkstalker feat is nice. And do get something with fire immunity, the death thoes can be mean to a rogue.
You may also want something that lets you reroll (robe of good luck etc.), and stuff that boost sneak attack.
So as Unundir said, the rogue could kill it alone - if it's well built.
the thing they should be concerned about is not an Encounter with the Balor.... but an Encounter with the Minions of the Wizard where the Balor JOINS the Battle after it has begun... or where they confront the Wizard and the Balor attacks from the rear(Greater Teleport)... remember the Limits of Anticipate Teleport(85' rad effect)... the Balor may Teleport to the general Area.. then Fly to engage the players in combat ... or just stay outside Combat Summon some Cannon Fodder of its own to send into combat first and Support from outside Combat with Greater Dispel magic...remember it can send this group against the PCs:
Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a balor can automatically summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrous, or one nalfeshnee, glabrezu, marilith, or balor. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.
... if i were playing the Balor... i would summon another Balor first an send him in.. while i supported Combat with Spell-like abilities from the sidelines
bottom line:
Dont ASSUME the Balor will engage in Single Combat with the Players.... it is not Stupid... nor is the Wizard who is the Primary threat. the Players need to think of Retreat options in case things dont go how they plan
:D
Sorceror should have a quickened Greater Dispel Magic to get rid of its Unholy Aura.
Needs a rod for that
Death Ward takes care of Implosion (it's a death effect).
No it isn't.
Needs a rod for that
No it isn't.
Death effects are a funny thing: I don't know whether the general SRD definition of a Death Attack applies to all. This might just be for Assassin's Death Attack, but I don't believe that.
DEATH ATTACKS
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
*
Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack.
*
Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
*
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has –10 hit points.
*
The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.
Now Death Attacks in a less strict sense may be entirely non-magical (Devastating Crit, for instance), and if Death Ward protects against them, then it should protect against mostly anything. The spell-description disagrees, though, since it specifies magical death effects.
implosion does not have the [Death] descriptor but I think you would be hard pressed to argue that it is not a "magical death effect" given the spell text
hmmm ... lets see what he can do :
Telekinesis @ 20th Caster level as a Free Action
first :[indent]
Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.[/indent]
so .... if the balor can make a Concentration Check... he can maintain a Free Grapple(Grapple Check +32 +1d20= +43 average), including Pinning(you are now Helpless)... and then Coup De gras your character.... works very well vs druid(unless he has a Strong Wildshape form), paladin/cleric/fist of Raz, rogue/ranger/SS, sorceror ............which of your characters can beat that???... it effectively takes them out of the battle and does 1d4+12 damage per round
but thats not all he could do... what if he is sitting in an Armory... with lots of weapons lying around.... how about this:
[indent]
Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).[/indent]
so if he Throws 15 Greatswords(2d6)... he makes an 15 Attack Rolls @ +28+1d20 = +39 Average each ..... hope your Sorceror has a Good AC... but what if all are also Poisoned with Black Lotus Extract(Contact DC 20, 3d6 Con/ 3d6 Con)...
he could take 30d6 damage and make 15+15 fort saves vs DC 20 or take additional 3d6 Con+3d6 Con max
id say that is cause to be concerned ;)
:D
First of all, Freedom of movement is endemic, and there's no way that Balor is going to be able to keep a Concentration check going with the amount of dmg its taking. It's not a free action to use telekinesis...it's a standard action, so he can't coup and pin someone. The modifiers for the contested roll are not hard to do if all you do is enlarge the party and get size mods on your side.
The balor would throw 15 greatswords as 1 object, weighing 75 lbs, and hit for 3-18 dmg. He doens't get 15 attacks with 15 weapons. He gets one attack with a bundle of weapons. Otherwise, he'd be better off using daggers and throw 200 of them at you.
Telekinesis is useful, but it has significant drawbacks and limits to it.
===Aelryinth
And he can only use 15 objects at a time and see this:
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage
It clearly says you can use several weapons, otherwise it would not specify that you have to do an attack roll for each weapon and on top of that, it states they all do standard damage. There goes your theory.
15 nonmagical greatswords are still not very dangerous, though. Lesser Ironguard, anyone?
The balor has a wizard ally. He could cast (Chained/Greater) Magic Weapon on them. I had a post about doing this with a summoned Vrock a while back on here in some thread or other. A vrock can be really damn nasty for its CR with just a tiny bit of help from a summoner.
And how common is Lesser Ironguard, anyway? I've never seen it used in a real game.
First of all, Freedom of movement is endemic,
true .... characters Should have some form of Freedom of Movement at this level.... but i dont think ...the OPs Party has... he has not said they do... and it is best NOT to Assume they do
and there's no way that Balor is going to be able to keep a Concentration check going with the amount of dmg its taking.
again.... Assuming the Balor is stupidly using Bad Tactics.. or that the party is able to gain Initiative or Surprise or that they can even reach him(he will likely be flying(my assumption))...... it is better to offer suggestions based on the best Tactics for the Balor... that way if he is run Badly, the party has an easy time defeating him.... if not, at least they will have Good suggestions on how to counter the Balors best Tactics
It's not a free action to use telekinesis...it's a standard action, so he can't coup and pin someone.
true ..... but since he can quicken it... imagine this example:
this is based on the Balor being sent by the Wizard to kill the PCs in the Wizards keep... or territory... the wizard is aware of the Party somehow(Reports from Minions, Scrying,etc...) so the Balor can choose where to attack.
1)if he has access to a Scroll of Greater Invisibility(supplied by his Master(Wizard)) ... he uses it(Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls))
2)then he Summons another balor
3)directs the other Balor to attack(Standard Tactics... but using Greater Dispel first)
4)Fire storm or implosion and quickened telekinesis(at any Obvious Spellcasters). If the balor does not deem itself seriously threatened, it conserves abilities usable only once per day and uses blasphemy instead.
[indent]if TK(Grapple does not work.... just use Violent Thrust for rest of Encounter if Needed)[/indent]
5)he tries to Grapple and Pin(Helpless) PC Casters so the Other Balor can Coup De Gras them.... if he cant do that.. he flanks the strongest PC that is attacking the other Balor and Attacks him
The modifiers for the contested roll are not hard to do if all you do is enlarge the party and get size mods on your side.
the party needs to understand that .... hence why the OP posted here
The balor would throw 15 greatswords as 1 object, weighing 75 lbs, and hit for 3-18 dmg. He doens't get 15 attacks with 15 weapons. He gets one attack with a bundle of weapons. Otherwise, he'd be better off using daggers and throw 200 of them at you.
Telekinesis is useful, but it has significant drawbacks and limits to it.
incorrect... as Tshern noted ... also look at the Spell Description:
Telekinesis
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets: See text
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object) or None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object); see text
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
Sustained Force: A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.
This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.
Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
:D
And how common is Lesser Ironguard, anyway? I've never seen it used in a real game.
Sigh, the IS...
Sigh, the IS...
Yeah, I could see that it might be useful there. :heehee
Note as soon as he summons another Balor, it does not arrive invisibily, so the party is going to be alerted...and if at that level, they aren't wandering around with detect invis or true sight up, they are being pretty darn silly.
Best thing to do is simply to suprise the Balor, instead of vice versa. Combat could easily be over in one round if that happens. A good charger build could take him out in one attack combo.
===Aelryinth
Note as soon as he summons another Balor, it does not arrive invisibily, so the party is going to be alerted...and if at that level, they aren't wandering around with detect invis or true sight up, they are being pretty darn silly.
quite correct .... that is something his party needs to know:
1)always have someone with Good Spot skills with See Invisible or True Sight at all times.....
Best thing to do is simply to suprise the Balor, instead of vice versa. Combat could easily be over in one round if that happens. A good charger build could take him out in one attack combo.
that is true for most everything.... Get Surprise.... or at least Initiative ,ALWAYS!!!
most any Optimized 17th lvl Character should be able to take out a Balor..... a 5 Character Party should have little difficulty facing a Balor... under normal Circumstances....
if the Balor was Optimized and Given Optimal Tactics.... things would get Interesting.... especially if the Wizard give the Balor command of some of his Minions
:D
some spells and protections that are the core of the tactics (it seems)
- anticipate teleport, greater (vs teleport)
- anti magic field (vs all Su and Sp abilities)
- heroics --> mage slayer (vs Sp abilities)
- true seeing (always wise)
- freedom of movement (vs grapple/whip)
- mass enlarge (vs telekenises)
- silence: is a cheap AMF, and could be combined with Dimensional Anchor.
- Greater Dispel magic : is always something to keep at hand
Our party is (17th lvl):
- DRuid (200+hp, CL 17): the war machine of the group (sometimes we just sit back and watch the show)
- paladin/Cleric/Fist (200+hp, CL 11) : the main mee warrior with a deadly charge
- Rogue/ranger/SS (160hp): really really good at SA's
- Sorceror/PrC (200+hp, CL16): does 'boom-boom' a lot
- Fighter/DwDef (about 300 hp's): the weakest character, has a lot of HP's and really high AC (50+), but isn't really mobile and it's damage is below average