For a change of pace, I'm DMing a campaign with some fairly ridiculous characters (almost everyone has four or more templates) and it's been really fun so far. One of the characters has a half-golem template that grants him spell immunity, plus a bunch of other protective measures like energy immunities, fast healing, etc. This isn't really a problem, since there are plenty of no-SR spells that can hurt him...but I'm pretty much reduce to chucking HP damage at him, which is a bit boring.
I'm looking for a few ways to ignore spell resistance entirely, and thus spell immunity as well. One I know of is the Vitriolic Blast invocation, which can make a warlock's blast or an eldritch theurge's spells ignore SR. A friend of mine in another group mentioned a spell that will either temporarily remove a target's SR for a while or let all of your spells ignore SR, but I can't seem to find any spell like that in my books.
The power level isn't the problem; the monsters with Supernatural Transformation are hitting him with interesting effects, and HP damage isn't an issue at all. I'm simply looking for a way for classed NPC casters to be able to do interesting things to him without having to be eldritch theurges.
Does anyone have any other ideas or strategies that could help?
Spell resistance does not affect supernatural abilities. It's hard to get those as a player, but as a DM you should be able to find some monsters with interesting (Su) abilities without too much trouble.
Very true. I've been using several monsters with (Su) abilities, and some with (Sp) abilities and Supernatural Transformation, but most classed NPC casters aren't helped by that much. I was looking for ways to overcome it with spells so enemy wizards and such can have an effect (and I probably should have put that in the OP), so if anyone knows any ways to do that I'd still appreciate hearing them.
You could introduce obstacles which require the use of buff spells to bypass. Say the party needs fly to cross a chasm. The half-golem PC can't benefit from it due to his immunity (and I don't think you can lower it the same way you can lower sr).... :p
Genius! I'd forgotten about the whole lower SR/can't lower immunity thing. Hmm...flying over chasms, sneaking into places with illusions, plane shifting to the BBEG's stronghold...I like it. :D
I've been using several monsters with (Su) abilities, and some with (Sp) abilities and Supernatural Transformation
Just wondering if you put two and two together; Eldritch Blast + Supernatural Transformation? I think the problem with it is that it is not conducive to Blast Shape invocations.
Have you noted that the Half-Golem template has no LA and is, therefore, not considered a PC-playable race, as I wish it were (for mage assasains)?
Edit 2: Eh, it seems the question might be obsolete, since you've mentioned that it's a campaign with ridiculous characters, i.e. it's okay that they're a half-golem, for the purposes of being ridiculous, in this campaign.
I am sure there are quite a few spells which ignore sr and do not revolve around damage, such as glitterdust, web, forcecage, the various fog/wall spells, amongst others.
Just wondering if you put two and two together; Eldritch Blast + Supernatural Transformation? I think the problem with it is that it is not conducive to Blast Shape invocations.
As runestar mentioned, you can't really apply that, although I have been using it to great effect with monster spell-likes.
Have you noted that the Half-Golem template has no LA and is, therefore, not considered a PC-playable race, as I wish it were (for mage assasains)?
Monster Manual 2 doesn't give LA in the monster stat blocks, since it was 3.0. The MM2 update, errata, and web enhancement do not mention LA at all, and advancement is "by character class," so half-golem characters are legal as far as I know.
Edit 2: Eh, it seems the question might be obsolete, since you've mentioned that it's a campaign with ridiculous characters, i.e. it's okay that they're a half-golem, for the purposes of being ridiculous, in this campaign.
Well, they're ridiculous within the rules. No rules were harmed in the making of this game. ;) There were some incarnate construct shenanigans going on to counteract LAs for some of the other characters, for instance, so it's a bit of a stretch in some cases, but it's as legal as I can make it.
The OP can easily handwave that since he is the DM, but just a point to note.
I could do so, but I hold myself as much to the RAW as I do my PCs, thus no DM handwaving about things like that. Though I've been sorely tempted. ;)
I am sure there are quite a few spells which ignore sr and do not revolve around damage, such as glitterdust, web, forcecage, the various fog/wall spells, amongst others.
I have been using some of those, and to good effect. I was looking for ways to negate SR in general so I could start using save or dies, status effects, and such; most no-SR simply take him out of the battle, and that's not all that fun after the first few times.
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone; keep 'em coming if you have them.
"It's disgusting, as alluring as it may be." - NiteCyper before this post was revised. http://www.bbqaddicts.com/bacon-explosion.html OH MY GOOOURD.
For example, if you look at that Monster Manual II update, you'll see the jermlaine has an LA of +0. The half-golem templates have LA's of --.
So, what does that mean if you absolutely have to allow the half-golem template? You'll have to figure out what you think is an acceptable LA yourself.
Considering all of the insane bonuses they get, I would say its on par with something like a vampire template, so I'd put the LA at somewhere around +8 myself. There might be somewhere that has guidelines for figuring out an LA for something that has no LA listed (Maybe the Monster Manual?), but I'm not sure where to find it.
Also, Advancement: By character class does not mean its a template made for players, that just means that's how the DM should boost up the CR of a monster if they want to.
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Thanks for the recap. Not anything I already knew, though. And to anyone who posts after this, please ask the OP permission before hijacking this thread into an "acceptable LA for half-golems" debate.
Lastly, google "Half-golem" and you'll find such threads already exist which I've browsed.
Edit: Addressing #13: Yup. Do we need to make an official thread on this? On that forum used for creating custom stuff?
Thanks for the recap. Not anything I already knew, though. And to anyone who posts after this, please ask the OP permission before hijacking this thread into an "acceptable LA for half-golems" debate.
Lastly, google "Half-golem" and you'll find such threads already exist which I've browsed.
Edit: Addressing #13: Yup. Do we need to make an official thread on this? On that forum used for creating custom stuff?
My post wasn't addressed to you, but the OP.
Also, thanks to another post, there is a cost as someone mentioned -- the GP cost. I guess that fixes the LA balancing issue!
But aside from that, challenging your half-golem. I really don't think putting in scenarios where magic immune makes him unable to progress with the party is a good idea, unless you put in a way for the party to complete the task by means other than magic. If you want to avoid using supernatural abilities, you could also try throwing melee guys with classes from the ToB as well.
For example, if you look at that Monster Manual II update, you'll see the jermlaine has an LA of +0. The half-golem templates have LA's of --.
I understand how LAs work, thanks. I double-checked and apparently only read the errata before, not the update, since the PDF I got was labeled wrong...but it doesn't matter because he bought it off rather than starting as one. From now on, if someone tries to get it without buying it, I'll know not to let them.
However, the fact remains that he's a half-golem. The LA isn't the issue. He's about on par with the rest of them, and weaker than some; it just so happens that this particular defense is more annoying than others. Can we move on now?
Edit: It's your campaign. Have fun with a Half-Golem. Have fun with Incarnate Constructs. May I ask how they acquired the template?
He bought it, of course. They started above level 1, so he had his starting wealth to do with it as he wished; he chose a few inherited templates to start with, then headed over to the gnomes to get half-golem-ified.
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Folks, I'm a competent optimizer. I can challenge him, and the other PCs as well. I'm not regretting my decision; I'm not having problems with him; I have ways to get around his spell immunity already (the Eldritch Theurge and Supernatural Transformation things already mentioned). The reason I'm asking for more is that classed NPC casters can't really do much except damage him and/or take him out of the battle, and "Take 100 damage" and "You're now stuck in a box for the rest of combat" aren't all that fun.
But aside from that, challenging your half-golem. I really don't think putting in scenarios where magic immune makes him unable to progress with the party is a good idea, unless you put in a way for the party to complete the task by means other than magic.
That's exactly what I was thinking. "Well, you could plane shift to Baator directly, but...you'd have to leave Jacob behind. Now, there is a portal in some ruins you could try out...."
If you want to avoid using supernatural abilities, you could also try throwing melee guys with classes from the ToB as well.
Again, HP damage isn't the problem. The supernatural abilities they get are the Desert Wind fire damage maneuvers and a few Shadow Hand cold maneuvers. They fought several warblade/factotums last combat, he was brought down close to 0 HP, and they all had fun. It's not damaging him I'm worried about.
Perhaps I should edit the OP to clarify exactly what I'm looking for, though I appreciate everyone's concern for my campaign integrity so far (and I'm not being sarcastic about that).
Cloaked Casting: At 20th level, you automatically overcome the target’s Spell Resistance.
:D
Mundane Traps..... trap door that drops him into a Adamantine Box that has Dimensional Lock cast in it.
heres a Great one... especially for Practical Jokes:
Sovereign Glue: This pale amber substance is thick and viscous. Because of its particular powers, it can be contained only in a flask whose inside has been coated with 1 ounce of salve of slipperiness, and each time any of the bonding agent is poured from the flask, a new application of the salve of slipperiness must be put in the flask within 1 round to prevent the remaining glue from adhering to the side of the container. A flask of sovereign glue, when found, holds anywhere from 1 to 7 ounces of the stuff (1d8–1, minimum 1), with the other ounce of the flask’s capacity taken up by the salve of slipperiness.
One ounce of this adhesive covers 1 square foot of surface, bonding virtually any two substances together in a permanent union. The glue takes 1 round to set. If the objects are pulled apart (a move action) before that time has elapsed, that application of the glue loses its stickiness and is worthless. If the glue is allowed to set, then attempting to separate the two bonded objects has no effect, except when universal solvent is applied to the bond. (Sovereign glue is dissolved by universal solvent.)
Strong transmutation; CL 20th; Craft Wondrous Item, make whole; Price 2,400 gp (per ounce).
uses are limitless .... and fun ;)
:D
:D
Beguiler 20 ... has a fun Class ability:
Cloaked Casting: At 20th level, you automatically overcome the target’s Spell Resistance.
:D
Excellent! This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Thanks.
Sovereign Glue:
:evillaugh Another intriguing idea....
And lava, huh? Hmm...that fits really well into the current plot, actually. Thanks again!
Soverign Glue + anything to affect Social Situations negatively =
Humilliation ignores SR and DR :P
:D
Hmm...unbeatable sr vs ability to automatically overcome any sr...I wonder which would take precedence...
That would be overcoming spell resistance. Spell immunity is basically an infinitely high spell resistance, so no overcoming it by caster level checks, not even Pun-Pun level checks, as he is Nigh-Infinite, not Infinite. But even infinity can be ignored ;)
Dweomerkeepers (Web enhancement to Complete Divine) get to cast their spells as (Su) abilities.
Dweomerkeeper...I'm not familiar with them except from passing comments on the forums. I'll take a look though; thanks.
He bought it, of course. They started above level 1, so he had his starting wealth to do with it as he wished; he chose a few inherited templates to start with, then headed over to the gnomes to get half-golem-ified.
Just to clarify the kind of DM you are: He simply found a spellcaster, payed him the right amount of GP, and had the "Incarnate Construct" spell cast on him?
The majority of the DMs I've heard of, but only probably because the only reason such DMs are mentioned are because they're worth whining about as opposed to DMs who allow a Mega Magic Mart (tm), are more restrictive in the creativity of a PCs past. e.g. acquiring the Dark template at level 2 with the RPing justifications which amounted to "there was a Summoner who liked to summon dark creatures -> stuff happened." won't cut it.
Pre-post edit: Odd. I thought I read somewhere that the Dark or Shadow template could be acquired by contact with a Shadow/Dark creature (I think a Shadow Mastiff was mentioned), but I can't seem to find it in either LoM or ToM. I may be thinking of the exploit to gain lots of Taint (touch an Imp, repeatedly).
The Wish and The Word were disqualified for taking things too far. Thought Bottle.
I guess that fixes the LA balancing issue!
I loled.
This is the main reason I'm posting this: *pouts and stamps feet* it's simply not balanced! Verily, a Wizard DID do it! Curses, Wizards of the Coast! A pox on your houses!
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Jack Mann
10-14-2006, 09:55 PM
How much is spell immunity worth?
Emperor Tippy
10-14-2006, 10:10 PM
Considering that it costs you a DC 610 epic spell (pre mitigation) to be able to replicate the ability (I halved the cost as you arn't reflecting the spells back, just negating their effect on you), I would make it a very expensive ability.
To mitigate a DC 610 spell with only XP is impossible but assuming it was allowed it would take 61,000 XP. That is as much XP as you need to get to level 12 (about) and more than 3 times as much XP as is required to get from level 19 to level 20.
If we increased casting time to 100 days and 10 miniutes then the DC would drop to 490. That would be 49,000 XP (or as much experiance is required for level 10).
Basically, magic immunity alone is powerful enough to warrant a preety substantial level adjustment on its own. And rember that the magic immunity applies to epic spells as well, something that not even epic magic can accomplish.
Magic immunity makes a character the perfect mage slayer.
Now that I'm done with all that rambeling magic immunity on its own should be an automatic LA of at least +10 if its even allowed on a non LA - creature.
10-14-2006, 09:55 PM
How much is spell immunity worth?
Emperor Tippy
10-14-2006, 10:10 PM
Considering that it costs you a DC 610 epic spell (pre mitigation) to be able to replicate the ability (I halved the cost as you arn't reflecting the spells back, just negating their effect on you), I would make it a very expensive ability.
To mitigate a DC 610 spell with only XP is impossible but assuming it was allowed it would take 61,000 XP. That is as much XP as you need to get to level 12 (about) and more than 3 times as much XP as is required to get from level 19 to level 20.
If we increased casting time to 100 days and 10 miniutes then the DC would drop to 490. That would be 49,000 XP (or as much experiance is required for level 10).
Basically, magic immunity alone is powerful enough to warrant a preety substantial level adjustment on its own. And rember that the magic immunity applies to epic spells as well, something that not even epic magic can accomplish.
Magic immunity makes a character the perfect mage slayer.
Now that I'm done with all that rambeling magic immunity on its own should be an automatic LA of at least +10 if its even allowed on a non LA - creature.
Lastly, carnivore, stop. My "funny quotes" section is growing too fast!
thank you... i am honored to be included
:D
Just to clarify the kind of DM you are: He simply found a spellcaster, payed him the right amount of GP, and had the "Incarnate Construct" spell cast on him?
The majority of the DMs I've heard of, but only probably because the only reason such DMs are mentioned are because they're worth whining about as opposed to DMs who allow a Mega Magic Mart (tm), are more restrictive in the creativity of a PCs past. e.g. acquiring the Dark template at level 2 with the RPing justifications which amounted to "there was a Summoner who liked to summon dark creatures -> stuff happened." won't cut it.
Like I said, this is a bit of a change of pace for us; I said "Okay, guys, we're starting at level 6; all books are open, go wild with templates subject to my approval. If you can justify it, you can have it."
This isn't "the kind of DM" I am usually at all; this is a one-time thing. And most of the other PCs are even weirder, anyway.