Human Str 14 Dex 17 (16 + 1 at lvl 4) Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 8 (32 point buy)
1. Swash 1 (1-Wpn Focus-Scimitar, Human-TWF, Swash-Weapon Fin)
2. Fighter 1 (Fighter-Dodge)
3. Swash 2 (3-Mobility)
4. Fighter 2 (Fighter-Combat Expertise)
5. Swash 3 (Swash-Insightful Strike)
6. planning Dervish right here (6-Imp TWF?)
After that, it gets a bit muddy. I was originally going to just go Derv 10 then Tempest 5 to finish the class off (assuming we get that far). However, I've been thinking about Scout instead, for the skirmish damage. At this point, I am leaning towards scout (not only for the 4D6, but also Uncanny and Evasion), but at which points do I dip? I would go the full Scout 5 and take the Improved Skirmish feat obviously. Would it be better to start Scout at 7, and hold off on GTWF until 15, but have the extra 4D6 at level 12, or continue with Dervish for full BAB and get GTWF at 12 and Imp Skirmish at 15?
The books we are alowd to use are:
Core (PHB DMG MM)
All Completes
Stormwrack
Thanks for your reponses!
See if you can get Expeditious Dodge from Races of the Wild allowed. It counts as Dodge for meeting prerequisites, but is strictly a better feat, especially for the mobile combatant.
Scout is strictly better than Tempest for boosting your damage. However, I would do my best to work a level of Barbarian in there for pounce. Dervish Dance is nice for letting you get that full attack off on the move, but sometimes it just doesn't lend itself well to the situation at hand.
As far as the dip into Barbarian...the setting is VERY open spaced (95% of the campaign is outdoors). I can't imagine seeing justifying the level for a situation that, in all likelihood, will not even come up.
I guess what I need is to know is where to take the dips in Scout. Also, any help on when to take which feats would be nice. So far, I've come up with two different ideas:
6-Dervish (ITWF)
7-Scout
8-Scout
9-Scout (Deadly Defense/Elusive Target/Imp. Crit)?
10-Scout (same as above)?
11-Scout
12-Dervish (Imp. Skirmish)
13-20 Dervish (GTWF at 15, whichever feat is not chosen at 9 and 10 is taken at 18)
OR
6-Dervish (ITWF)
7-Scout
8-Dervish
9-Dervish (probably Deadly Defense since I'm skimping out on Scout levels early)?
10-Dervish
11-Scout
12-Scout (GTWF)
13-Scout
14-Scout (Elusive or Imp Crit)
15-Scout (Imp Skirmish)
16-20 Dervish (Elusive or Imp Crit)
Alternatively, i could do something like Scout 1, Ranger 1, Highland Stalker 2, and then have a free level of something (Barb? Tempest?), but then not only do i lose out on Evasion, I lose out on the free feat from Scout 4 also. So to me, that isn't worth it.
If I were you, I wouldn't go for Imp. Crit. Any feat that a measely +1 improvement on your weapon just seems like a waste of a feat.
Also, if you're going to do scout at some point, I would make it first level for the extra skill points. Swashbuckler gets 4+, which is nice, but to me, 6+Con HP and ((8+Int)x4) skill points > 10 +Con HP and ((4+Int)x4) skill points. I mean, it just doesn't seem like 4 HP is worth giving up 16 skill points.
So, maybe
1. Scout1
2. Swash1
3. Fighter 1
4. Swash 2
5. Fighter 2
6. Swash 3
7. Dervish...
etc...
Also, I noticed the weapon focus with Scimitar. It's not a light weapon UNTIL you hit Dervish, which means five levels of a wasted feat (since you can't finesse with it, you're sort of wasting either weapon finesse or weapon focus). If the DM allows Retraining, I would use WF with Rapier and later retrain it to scimitar when you hit dervish...if not, well, you can question whether you're gonna be less optimized early on (keep WF scimitar) but be strong later, or be less optimized later (WF in something else slashing and light like kukri) but be solid early on. Maybe you already considered it, maybe not, I just thought I'd mention it.
Also, Complete Scoundrel's Daring Warrior feat is nice, if you decide to neglect the Scout, you can always finish off with more Fighter/Swashbuckler and get dodge bonuses (which count for qualiying for Dervish) letting you retrain out that feat used on Dodge (once again if retraining is allowed) and use it for something else.
So, like, Swash3/Fighter2/Dervish1/Fighter2/Swash2... and then you can take daring outlaw, retrain out dodge for something else, now you're qualified for Greater Weapon Focus and almost Greater Weapon Specialization...and finish Dervish at your leisure, having an extra class level before 20th to toss in whatever.
a tree of feats I know are not very popular here on the boards, but add up nicely with 2WFing.
That's of course, if you don't take the Scout Route.
I can't use TWRend, as PH2 is not allowed. I currently have Kukris speced, but I can retrain once I get to Dervish. Feat retraining is basically the one thing that the DM will approve of from PH2. Also, apparently, I can't use the feats I was going to for my 4th Scout level (I didn't realize this...this is my first 3.5 character).
Also, we already started the campaign. We are approaching level 6 at this point, and, this being my first 3.5 character, I had not even considered the Scout path (hence why I was just going to go Derv 10, Tempest 5). Had I considered Scout when we first started (at 3rd level), he definitely would have been my level one choice (although this isn't too terrible, I have full BAB at level 6 this way to take ITWF).
I guess my problem will be what to do at later levels, but so far, this is my planned path (from 6 onward):
6 Derv 1 (ITWF, 7 skill points, use 1 on tumble to make it 15, 2 on skill trick acrobatic backstab from CS to help our rogue out...I'm going to be tumbling around anyway, and taking 10 on tumble gives me the needed DC25 check, so why not take it and make enemies flatfooted?...4 on dance so dance lasts 3 rounds)
7 Derv 2 (max out dance...will last 6 rounds)
8 Scout 1 (Skirmish 1D6, fast movement)
9 Scout 2 (Battle Fort, Uncanny Dodge)
10 Scout 3 (Skirmish 1D6 1AC)
11 Ranger 1 (Favored enemy undead)
12 Scout 4 (12-Swift Hunter, Scout-Improved Skirmish...bumps skirmish up to 4D6 3AC, second favored enemy Construct)
Thats what I have so far. At level 12 I'll have 5 attacks at Weapon damage + Str + Int + 4D6.
The other way would be do Derv 3 at level 9 (for +1 to attack and damage and Spring Attack).
After that, I'm not sure. The easiest way is to just finish off Dervish all the way to 20. However, I could throw in an extra level of Ranger and Scout (gives me 1 AC on the skirmish, Evasion, and TWF, which would allow me to respec that feat to something like Deadly defense, but I lose a BAB, and a +1 to hit and to damage). I would definitely go to Derv 7 for Elaborate Parry, but then I still have one more level to play with. Derv 8 gives +1 on my Will (which is my biggest weakness) and Reflex, and an extra +5 movement, but otherwise is nothing special. I could also take level 1 Barbarian (as snakeman suggested) for +2 Fort, +10 movement (or pounce), and the ability to rage in a pinch.
6 Derv 1 (ITWF)
7 Derv 2
8 Scout 1
9 Rogue 1 (Deadly Defense)
10 Scout 2
11 Scout 3
12 Scout 4 (Swift Ambusher, Imp. Skirmish)
13 Derv 3
14 Rogue 2
15 Rogue 3 (Daring Outlaw)
16 Rogue 4
17 Derv 4
18 Derv 5 (GTWF)
19 Derv 6
20 Derv 7
The other thing I'm uncomfortable with there is that with one more level of Scout or Rouge, I get another D6 from Skirmish, and, if I go Rogue, then another level beyond that gives another D6 Sneak Attack. But, looking that far ahead, at level 18 I would have 11 D6 + weapon + str + int + derv damage per hit, which outperforms my friend who's just a swash/rogue hybrid. I guess the question becomes is which is worth more? 2D6 of damage, or +2 attack +1 damage (losing 1 BAB and 2 levels Derv), +2 initiative, and 4AC (while using combat expertise, which will be always?).
Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud on some of this stuff. I'm not trying to be argumentative, or dismissive , just trying to figure out which path is best from where I'm at right now. I really am grateful
Several notes: as long as your damage is precision-based, minimize MAD by relying on Weapon Finesse (which works with Scimitars due to Dervish). As long as you're relying on Dex instead of Str, you can play a Strongheart Halfling instead of a Human for a net +2 to hit and AC. This only holds true if you have a way of increasing your base speed (Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider, Boots of Springing and Striding etc.).
It's not really easy to make a TWF and precision-based character viable at all levels, due to Dervish's heavy feat requirements, but the builds below should already be nicely playable at 6th level.
Building a Dervish
needed:
Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Dodge
Mobility
Combat Expertise
wanted or at least liked:
TWF
Swash 3 (for Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike)
Skirmish +2d6 or more (even better with Improved Skirmish)
elements or building blocks:
Scout 3 gives Skirmish +1d6/+1
Scout 4 gives Skirmish +1d6/+1 and a Feat
Ranger 2 gives Track and TWF
Highland Stalker 2 gives Skirmish +1d6
possible entries:
Scout4/HS2 (no Int to damage, only one of Weapon Finesse, TWF, Imp. Skirmish)
Scout4/Swash3 (only +1d6+1 Skirmish, plus only one of TWF, Imp. Skirmish)
Scout3/Ranger2 with Swift Hunter (no Weapon Finesse, Imp. Skirmish, but qualifies for latter)
Scout4/Ranger2 with Swift Hunter (qualifies for Imp. Skirmish, no Weapon Finesse)
Scout1/Ranger2/Swash3 (no Swift Hunter, qualifies for Imp. Skirmish)
add Fighter levels as needed for feat reqs…
first try, TWFing Dervish:
Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Scout 1 / Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise [Human]
2. Ranger 1 / Track [Ranger]
3. Ranger 2 / Dodge, TWF [Ranger]
4. Scout 2
5. Scout 3
6. Scout 4 / Improved Skirmish, Swift Hunter [Scout]
7. Fighter 1 / Weapon Focus (Scimitar) [Fighter]
8. Dervish 1
9. Dervish 2 / Mobility
10. Dervish 3 / Spring Attack (Dervish)
11. Dervish 4
12. Dervish 5 / Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13. Dervish 6
14. Dervish 7
15. Dervish 8 / Bounding Assault
16. Dervish 9
17. Dervish 10
18. Tempest 1 / Acrobatic Strike
19. Tempest 2
20. Fighter 2 / Rapid Blitz
second try, slightly amended TWFing Dervish:
Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Scout 1 / Dodge, Combat Expertise [Human]
2. Swashbuckler 1 / Weapon Finesse [Swashbuckler]
3. Ranger 1 / Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Track [Ranger]
4. Ranger 2 / TWF [Ranger]
5. Scout 2
6. Scout 3 / Swift Hunter
7. Scout 4 / Mobility [Scout]
8. Dervish 1
9. Dervish 2 / Improved Skirmish
10. Dervish 3 / Spring Attack [Dervish]
11. Dervish 4
12. Dervish 5 / Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13. Dervish 6
14. Dervish 7
15. Dervish 8 / Bounding Assault
16. Dervish 9
17. Dervish 10
18. Tempest 1 / Acrobatic Strike
19. Fighter 1 / Rapid Blitz
20. Tempest 2
EDITed for improved formatting