Dervish Optimizing, What Went Wrong? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dervish Optimizing, What Went Wrong?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Delandel
Jun 10, 2008 18:23:44 A couple days ago I played a 1 session campaign, 2 players and the DM, very hack n' slash oriented campaign. Core was encouraged but all books were allowed, the level characters were 10.

Nearly all my previous characters have been God wizards or some sort of utility/support, and this time around I decided to go for a pure combat role. I decided to try out Whirling Dervish, and went human swashbuckler3 / fighter 2 / dervish 5.

My inspriation for the class was based off xanadu's dervish guide:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013

I don't have the character sheet with me, but with my 49k starting gold I bought Gloves of Dex +6, Headband of Int +2, Amulet of Health +2, and then some minor but situationally useful items just in case. I had the feats weapon finesse (free), weapon focus (scimitar), dodge, mobility, combat expertise, spring attack (free), two weapon focus, imp two weapon focus. I set up my stats dex > int > con > str > wis > cha.

My friend playing the other character was mostly fighter with a mix of rogue and ranger and wielding a swordbow, he played as ranged damage dealer who could also track and disarm traps.

When the campaign began I felt pretty confident in my ability to inflict alot of pain. However, I quickly noticed that my fighter friend wasn't far behind my damage when doing my dervish dance (unless I would drop someone in my attack and cleaves would kick in), and when my dances were depleted and I had to resort to spring attacks he'd just dominate my damage. I was a safer damage dealer due to spring attack, and I had significantly more health than him, but he was a better and more consistent damage dealer while also bringing utility to the group that I lacked. It was even worse when we fought constructs and undead, when my damage would plummet further.

Later in the campaign my character got 1 shotted by a level 16 ninja that the DM told me he's planning to play for another campaign, my dervish was at 90 health when combat started, the ninja went first and did a sudden strike (i think that was the attack?) for 50 damage and down I went.

My question now is, what went wrong and what should I have done differently? I think my biggest flaw was magical item buying, gloves of dex +6 was probably a bad idea as it costed far too much. Should I have upgraded my scimitars alot more or what? Please help me make my next damage dealing melee more awesome and less suck. Thanks!
#2
blargney_the_second
Jun 11, 2008 1:30:15 If you're TWFing you need a good source of bonus damage. Int to damage is a good start, but you need more than that.
#3
Endarire
Jun 11, 2008 12:09:08 TWF works best with sneak attack or similar high amounts of bonus damage dice.
#4
gilfalas_elaandrin
Jun 11, 2008 12:32:03 Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't weapon finnesse NOT work with Scimitars, even if they are considered light weapons from Dervish?

The finesse feat has a specific list of light weapons that work with the feat and scimitars are not on it, unless I missed something in dervish that allows finesse with Scimitars

Were your scimitars keen? 3 extra crit numbers are always nice.

But yeah getting mulptiple sources of bonus damage is the best way to go for 2WF.

Burn a feat for Blood in the Water stance from book of 9 swords (or better yet take a level of a MI class) and that will help with those large crit range scimitars as well.
#5
learos
Jun 11, 2008 13:35:43 Weapon Finesse:

With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Weapon Finesse does indeed work for the Dervishes Scimitars. As for what you could have done differently, the Impact Weapon enhancement gives a +5 Untyped bonuse to damage that stacks with crits, Keen works well as well. Next time also look into using Sword Sage or Martial Maneuver and Martial Stance to get Shadow Blade to add your dex to damage as well. Both your Int and Dex bonus are not considered bonus dice so they stack with crits as well. With the scimitar's crit range being huge Keen or 2 scabbard of keen edges is a natural selection.

Knowledge Devotion is a good one for bonus hit and damage as well if you can get some knowledge ranks.

If you had a wizard in your group and were fighting undead or constructs alot you should have asked if he could put Greater Mighty Wollup on a couple of light maces. This makes up for the loss in precision damage and allows you to at least deal reasonable if not comparable damage.
#6
nunkuruji
Jun 11, 2008 14:51:20 I rebuilt our parties ill-fated rogue as a Scout 4 / Fighter 2 / Dervish 3

Future plans interleave Scout and Dervish levels.

Feats: Telling Blow, Dodge, Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Sense Weakness, Improved Critical (Scimitar)

Other members of our party include a Paladin and Dragon Shaman (me).
I fuel everyone with Power, but regardless the Dervish does just as well in damage as everyone else.
Sense Weakness takes care of the construct/undead problem.
Improved Skirmish is planned to boost up precision damage

In this build, versatility is the name of the game. There is rarely a situation in which this character feels worthless or ineffective. Certainly a straight rogue can lay down the murder damage on a successful sneak attack, but a previous problem was feeling completely worthless against non-vulnerable targets.

Perhaps the Scout's Uncanny Dodge and a trained Hide would have saved you from the Ninja, perhaps not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Delandel Jun 10, 2008 18:23:44	A couple days ago I played a 1 session campaign, 2 players and the DM, very hack n' slash oriented campaign. Core was encouraged but all books were allowed, the level characters were 10. Nearly all my previous characters have been God wizards or some sort of utility/support, and this time around I decided to go for a pure combat role. I decided to try out Whirling Dervish, and went human swashbuckler3 / fighter 2 / dervish 5. My inspriation for the class was based off xanadu's dervish guide: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013 I don't have the character sheet with me, but with my 49k starting gold I bought Gloves of Dex +6, Headband of Int +2, Amulet of Health +2, and then some minor but situationally useful items just in case. I had the feats weapon finesse (free), weapon focus (scimitar), dodge, mobility, combat expertise, spring attack (free), two weapon focus, imp two weapon focus. I set up my stats dex > int > con > str > wis > cha. My friend playing the other character was mostly fighter with a mix of rogue and ranger and wielding a swordbow, he played as ranged damage dealer who could also track and disarm traps. When the campaign began I felt pretty confident in my ability to inflict alot of pain. However, I quickly noticed that my fighter friend wasn't far behind my damage when doing my dervish dance (unless I would drop someone in my attack and cleaves would kick in), and when my dances were depleted and I had to resort to spring attacks he'd just dominate my damage. I was a safer damage dealer due to spring attack, and I had significantly more health than him, but he was a better and more consistent damage dealer while also bringing utility to the group that I lacked. It was even worse when we fought constructs and undead, when my damage would plummet further. Later in the campaign my character got 1 shotted by a level 16 ninja that the DM told me he's planning to play for another campaign, my dervish was at 90 health when combat started, the ninja went first and did a sudden strike (i think that was the attack?) for 50 damage and down I went. My question now is, what went wrong and what should I have done differently? I think my biggest flaw was magical item buying, gloves of dex +6 was probably a bad idea as it costed far too much. Should I have upgraded my scimitars alot more or what? Please help me make my next damage dealing melee more awesome and less suck. Thanks!
#2 blargney_the_second Jun 11, 2008 1:30:15	If you're TWFing you need a good source of bonus damage. Int to damage is a good start, but you need more than that.
#3 Endarire Jun 11, 2008 12:09:08	TWF works best with sneak attack or similar high amounts of bonus damage dice.
#4 gilfalas_elaandrin Jun 11, 2008 12:32:03	Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't weapon finnesse NOT work with Scimitars, even if they are considered light weapons from Dervish? The finesse feat has a specific list of light weapons that work with the feat and scimitars are not on it, unless I missed something in dervish that allows finesse with Scimitars Were your scimitars keen? 3 extra crit numbers are always nice. But yeah getting mulptiple sources of bonus damage is the best way to go for 2WF. Burn a feat for Blood in the Water stance from book of 9 swords (or better yet take a level of a MI class) and that will help with those large crit range scimitars as well.
#5 learos Jun 11, 2008 13:35:43	Weapon Finesse: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls. Weapon Finesse does indeed work for the Dervishes Scimitars. As for what you could have done differently, the Impact Weapon enhancement gives a +5 Untyped bonuse to damage that stacks with crits, Keen works well as well. Next time also look into using Sword Sage or Martial Maneuver and Martial Stance to get Shadow Blade to add your dex to damage as well. Both your Int and Dex bonus are not considered bonus dice so they stack with crits as well. With the scimitar's crit range being huge Keen or 2 scabbard of keen edges is a natural selection. Knowledge Devotion is a good one for bonus hit and damage as well if you can get some knowledge ranks. If you had a wizard in your group and were fighting undead or constructs alot you should have asked if he could put Greater Mighty Wollup on a couple of light maces. This makes up for the loss in precision damage and allows you to at least deal reasonable if not comparable damage.
#6 nunkuruji Jun 11, 2008 14:51:20	I rebuilt our parties ill-fated rogue as a Scout 4 / Fighter 2 / Dervish 3 Future plans interleave Scout and Dervish levels. Feats: Telling Blow, Dodge, Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Sense Weakness, Improved Critical (Scimitar) Other members of our party include a Paladin and Dragon Shaman (me). I fuel everyone with Power, but regardless the Dervish does just as well in damage as everyone else. Sense Weakness takes care of the construct/undead problem. Improved Skirmish is planned to boost up precision damage In this build, versatility is the name of the game. There is rarely a situation in which this character feels worthless or ineffective. Certainly a straight rogue can lay down the murder damage on a successful sneak attack, but a previous problem was feeling completely worthless against non-vulnerable targets. Perhaps the Scout's Uncanny Dodge and a trained Hide would have saved you from the Ninja, perhaps not.