I am designing a simple gish for an adventure. I haven't quite setled on the race yet, still thinking - I was considering some sort of LA-less savage humanoid, but I may end up being a human in the end aswell.
The adventure is in a Faerun setting, and most books are available, cept for ToB. All after the reviewing of the DM ofc. No particular house rules though the DM is a bit strict on the RPing of class requirements, IE, you have to find a trainer to train you ect.
Anyway, I am 8th level and this is what I have so far:
Fighter 1 Combat Casting (Human), 1 Flaw
Conjurer 6 (with Spontaneous Divination, Imp Initiative as 1st lvl bonus feat and immediate metamagic ACF.)
Spellsword 1
.. and I was thinking of taking all Abj Champ levels next.
Any ideas for the feats? And on what weapon I should use I am a bit unsure but I think was thinking about a Greatsword or perhaps a Falchion (for flavour purposes the last one mostly ^^)
Thank you in advance!
Core Only-
Fighter 1/Transmuter 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Fighter +1/Transmuter +3 (BAB 16, CL 17(9ths))
Core/SRD-
Human Paragon 1/Fighter 1/Martial Transmuter 2/HP +2/Tranmuter +1/Eldritch Knight 10/Transmuter +3 (BAB 16, CL17(9ths))
Core/SRD + Completes-
Human Paragon 1/Figher 1/Martial Transmuter 2/HP+2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 (BAB 18, CL17(9ths))
Core/SRD + Completes + Forgotten Realms-
Human Paragon 1/Figher 1/Martial Transmuter 2/HP+2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Incantatrix 4/Eldritch Knight 4 (BAB 16(20 with persisted DP), CL17(9ths))
Are you sure about the human paragon? I did concider it myself, but I thought I'd not like to lose another CL.
Any suggestions about weapons?
Human Paragon trades you one bonus feat, 2 extra skill points/level (+8, if you take it at 1st), UMD as a class skill (forever), d8 hit-dice, and +2 Int for that one lost caster level. I, personally, think it's worth it, but I could see valid arguments for why it isn't to others.
As a gish, I rarely mind being a caster level or two behind straight casters. I typically do not use spells in combat anyway (besides obvious ones like Wraithstrike) and instead focus on long duration self-buffs and group utility spells for outside of combat, burning them with Arcane Strike/Arcane Boost as needed.
I've played and DM'd for all 4 of those builds, and they all worked out quite well.
If you have to stay with what you have, I would say finish off Abjurant Champion, then just rock on into Eldritch Knight.
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7
You're going to be a little bit squishier than a normal gish, but you should be fine. What schools did you ban for conjuration, and can you trade the Spontaneous Metamagic for Abrupt Jaunt? Abrupt Jaunt is awesome for a gish, even though Transmutation is probably the best school to specialize in. I would even go so far as to say Focused Specialist Transmuter is worth it, dropping Evo, Necro, and Enchant, for the extra buffs/spells to burn to Arcane Strike.
As for weapons, I like reach weapons on Gish, especially since with the Heroics spell you can grab an extra feat like....oh...Stand Still or something along those lines. Just get armor spikes to threaten adjacent squares. Once you get Greater Enlarge Person, you effectively threaten everything within 20 feet all day, which also means you can stay a decent distance away as you are a bit squishy with all those wizard levels.
Edit: I mentioned this in another thread, but if you're going to be the party tank, or if you just want to try something a little different, I'm having a ton of fun with this build:
Knight 3/Martial Focused Transmuter 1/Fighter 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8
He uses a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Deft Opportunist, Improved Initiative, Combat Casting, Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster, Mage Slayer etc.
He absolutely devours almost anything that gets within his reach since they can't 5 foot step and he can stop them from moving and casting. It really might be the most effective tank build I've ever seen in action. He was also responsible for Wraithstrike being nerfed (no longer touch attack, just a flat +5 bonus to attack for 1 round)
Just thought I would throw it out there as it's a little non-traditional, but a lot of fun.
...He was also responsible for Wraithstrike being nerfed (no longer touch attack, just a flat +5 bonus to attack for 1 round)...
When and where did that happen?
I assume that's a houserule in his game
I assume that's a houserule in his game
Yeah, my current character wasn't responsible for any official D&D errata : ) Tho I would take pride in it if he was. It was more that the DM was getting angry about the fact that 20' reach, combat reflexes, and the Knight's level 3 ability combined with Wraithstrike and Power Attack were seriously making it so that he could only throw very specific types of encounters at us over and over.
If so I can offer you a superb divine casting gish.
Does text trump table for sacred fist?
If so I can offer you a superb divine casting gish.
Hm, sure, toss it in!
If you go:
monk 2/crusader3/ur2/sacred fist 8, you hit 9th level spells at 14th level.
with ECL-2 BAB
Use Keeper of forbidden lore [abyssal heritor] (FC 1) for spellcraft and know planes. You'll need both to qual for Ur and I believe also sacred fist.
Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/ Battle Sorcerer 8...that's +16 BAB and 20th caster level
I much prefer spontaneous casting to prepared, especially for gishes since there are so many different ways combat can go. So you're a prepared caster gish and you have 4 Wraithstrikes prepared for 2nd level, you get ganked by like five trolls wishing you had prepared a Mirror Image! You'll never run into that problem with good ol' fashioned spontaneous casting
Here's another simple yet effective build:
Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/ Battle Sorcerer 8...that's +16 BAB and 20th caster level
So you're a prepared caster gish and you have 4 Wraithstrikes prepared for 2nd level, you get ganked by like five trolls wishing you had prepared a Mirror Image! You'll never run into that problem with good ol' fashioned spontaneous casting
Well....if you, ya know....KNOW that spell. How many 2nd level spells does a Battle Sorc EVER know? Many of the better buffs are all of the same level, which makes spontaneous casters very difficult. You also end up with LESS spells/level than a focused specialist. And you lose skill points. And you lose languages. And you lose a feat (martial wizard variant). And you lose a familiar (or familiar replacement ability such as abrupt jaunt or quick shift).
I just don't think it's worth it.
So you're a prepared caster gish and you have 4 Wraithstrikes prepared for 2nd level, you get ganked by like five trolls wishing you had prepared a Mirror Image! You'll never run into that problem with good ol' fashioned spontaneous casting
Well, my last build can persist Wraithstrike, so it only needs one. :P
Even without Persist cheese, though, I honestly rarely use Wraithstrike, usually only for boss fights and 'nova' type situations. Versus 'monsters' as a gish, I rarely have that much difficulty hitting.
Well....if you, ya know....KNOW that spell. How many 2nd level spells does a Battle Sorc EVER know? Many of the better buffs are all of the same level, which makes spontaneous casters very difficult. You also end up with LESS spells/level than a focused specialist. And you lose skill points. And you lose languages. And you lose a feat (martial wizard variant). And you lose a familiar (or familiar replacement ability such as abrupt jaunt or quick shift).
I just don't think it's worth it.
Battle Sorc knows max four 2nd level spells which is the same as ANY wizard, only they don't have any banned SCHOOLS OR LOST CASTER LEVELS. Sorry your comparision is just plain pathetic. You lose languages!? Oh the horror!!! You lose some skills points?! Um you're a gish that kills things not a skill monkey. You lose a feat!? Again I'll take spontaneous casting over prepared casting and 1 feat any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Familiar replacement for a Sorc is Spell Shield (Dungeonscape) - sacrifice a spell to negate the spell level x5 damage... um yeah waaaaaaaaay better than some moving 10 ft.
Well, my last build can persist Wraithstrike, so it only needs one. :P
Even without Persist cheese, though, I honestly rarely use Wraithstrike, usually only for boss fights and 'nova' type situations. Versus 'monsters' as a gish, I rarely have that much difficulty hitting.
This was one of about 17,345 examples I could think of. Bottom line - spontaneous casting always trumps prepared casting...I don't think you'll find someone who doesn't agree with this. Since you're a gish you don't need as many spells known as a normal caster, just some fuel for your Arcane Strike. Your last build had 7 different classes Einstein, I belive the OP asked for a SIMPLE build (like mine). Plus Persist means nothing since level 5 casters have Dispel Magic which would really take the gem out of your donut ;) Thanks take a number and to the back of the line with you
Familiar replacement for a Sorc is Spell Shield (Dungeonscape) - sacrifice a spell to negate the spell level x5 damage... um yeah waaaaaaaaay better than some moving 10 ft. So yes, congrats you are are a n00b of epic proportions. Please proceed to the checkout line and thank you come again.
I'm *hoping* that and your other post are sarcasm. Abrupt Jaunt is much better than Spell Shield.
Spontaneous casting is better than prepared all else being equal. Since it's never equal, prepared tends to win.
This was one of about 17,345 examples I could think of. Bottom line - spontaneous casting always trumps prepared casting...I don't think you'll find someone who doesn't agree with this.
Really?
Since you're a gish you don't need as many spells known as a normal caster, just some fuel for your Arcane Strike.
A specialist wizard has just as many spell slots as a battle sorcerer and gets higher spell levels one level earlier, a focused specialist has just as many as a regular sorcerer and gets higher spell levels one level earlier. You're not getting any more 'arcane strike' fuel going that route over going transmuter or focuses specialist transmuter, in fact, if that's all you care about, you're shooting yourself in the foot, since the specialist get's higher level spells to burn quicker.
Your last build had 7 different classes Einstein, I belive the OP asked for a SIMPLE build (like mine).
I did post 4 different builds, in order from simplest (with fewest sources) to most complex. But even the most complex one is iterative of the earlier builds, so if you understand them, it's not hat hard to make the leap to the next level. I could post about a half-dozen more off the top of my head, many that would use sorcerer, but without knowing exactly what the situation the OP is in is, they'd just be educated guesses or examples of other builds I've used/seen used.
Plus Persist means nothing since level 5 casters have Dispel Magic which would really take the gem out of your donut ;) Thanks take a number and to the back of the line with you
There are so many ways to avoid being dispelled, it's not even a game any more. Even without Persist, a lot of what a gish does is self-buff and wade in, so the danger is the same for a persistent caster as it is for a non-persistent caster. Hell, it's arguably less severe for a persist caster, as they can have more buffs up all the time anyway, and therefore more chances that something is left after the dispel rolls are done.
With that build, he wouldn't get Persist cheese until 15th level (CL13), your 'level 5 caster' in a fair fight (without me boosting my caster level, which I'd do) HAS to roll a 20 on his dispel check to dispel ONE spell. The odds of him doing it on the 4 or 5 (or more) I may have persisted at that point, plus the normal hr/lvl and already all day buffs, and the swift abjuration I cast in round 1/2, is astronomical.
Really?
A specialist wizard has just as many spell slots as a battle sorcerer and gets higher spell levels one level earlier, a focused specialist has just as many as a regular sorcerer and gets higher spell levels one level earlier. You're not getting any more 'arcane strike' fuel going that route over going transmuter or focuses specialist transmuter, in fact, if that's all you care about, you're shooting yourself in the foot, since the specialist get's higher level spells to burn quicker.
I did post 4 different builds, in order from simplest (with fewest sources) to most complex. But even the most complex one is iterative of the earlier builds, so if you understand them, it's not hat hard to make the leap to the next level. I could post about a half-dozen more off the top of my head, many that would use sorcerer, but without knowing exactly what the situation the OP is in is, they'd just be educated guesses or examples of other builds I've used/seen used.
There are so many ways to avoid being dispelled, it's not even a game any more. Even without Persist, a lot of what a gish does is self-buff and wade in, so the danger is the same for a persistent caster as it is for a non-persistent caster. Hell, it's arguably less severe for a persist caster, as they can have more buffs up all the time anyway, and therefore more chances that something is left after the dispel rolls are done.
With that build, he wouldn't get Persist cheese until 15th level (CL13), your 'level 5 caster' in a fair fight (without me boosting my caster level, which I'd do) HAS to roll a 20 on his dispel check to dispel ONE spell. The odds of him doing it on the 4 or 5 (or more) I may have persisted at that point, plus the normal hr/lvl and already all day buffs, and the swift abjuration I cast in round 1/2, is astronomical.
Well seeing as how all your wizard builds have only CL 17 and my Battle Sorc build has CL 20 that would mean that yes the battle sorc would indeed have more fuel for Arcane Strike and effectively more spells per day and known ;) Nice try though
He would, however, have more slots: 3 more 9ths and 2 more 8ths, and 1 more 7th, which absolutely isn't anything to shake a stick at. He also isn't limited in his school choices on those spells, which also isn't anything to shake a stick at. And he get's to pick those nifty sorcerer-only spells, like Wings of Cover, that can be awesome for a Gish.
But he doesn't have persist cheese. He doesn't have UMD as a class skill. He doesn't have 5 Bonus feats. He doesn't have cooperative metamagic. He doesn't have reduced ASF (for anything above Light). He doesn't have proficiency with all martial weapons. And he doesn't get an extra +2 to his primary casting stat (which may actually take away one of those extra spell slots you have).
Let's get something straight, I am in no way saying your build sucks. Quite the contrary, it's simple, elegant, effective, and there's (almost) always nothing wrong with playing a full caster.
I am however saying that your assertion that A-Sorcerers are always better than Wizards and/or B-Sorcerers always make better Gish's than wizards and/or C-Wizards cannot handle the versatility needed to play a gish, are all complete bunk.
Wizards also don't need to actually lose any caster levels at all, with feats like Militia (regional from FR granting proficiency in all martial weapons) and Otherworldly (granting Outsider and all that entails, darkvision 60 and martial weapon proficiency for example).
I will maintain, however, that a party is best served by having at least one dedicated prepared caster, and at least one dedicated spontaneous caster. That party will have the versatile strength of the prepared caster (using divination spells, Animate Deads, teleports, calling spells, possibly item crafting) and the ability to launch repeated salvos of overwhelming, lethal spells. I'm not talking three Fireballs, I'm referring to triple Great Thunderclaps at 6th level. Wizards just can't do it. Now and then encounters just call for three or more Great Thunderclaps, and what can I say? Evocation is a dump school.
For a gish, though, I do prefer the precise buff suite offered by the Wizard class. Defending the dispel is kind of fun.
I do hope you'll seriously consider the builds I laid out for you, but I understand if they are not to your taste.
With a few exceptions, at low and intermediate levels I'd rather have any spontaneous caster replaced by prepared ones.
In both cases there'll always be a situation where everyone is all looking at everyone else blankly. "Do you have a spell for this situation ? Nope. Me neither. Can't say I do." :D
Drake Helms!
Rings of Theurgy!
Mid to high, these are gaps that your gold coins, shiny shiny shiny, can help make go away. Mind, a wizard can also, and should also, pick up a couple of runestaves, possibly a robe of mysterious conjuration, and probably combine a belt of battle with a belt of the wide earth.
Itemization is sort of my specialty, as well as pithica's, so let me know if you need help.
The levels can vary (I like Human Paragon 3 / Wizard 2 / Ftr1 for starting off, not in that order) but the heart of the build is
Havoc Mage + Quick Staff. Be a wizard who can actually kick butt with his staff, using Quick Staff and Battlecasting to jack up your AC (either a little or a lot) while whacking things in melee and casting at the same time. I've had fun with it.
I like reat Thunderclap as much as the next person but I can't say I've ever seen an encounter that called for 3 casting of it.
We were in the Underdark and came upon a tremendous cavern, the legendary Pool of Messaria which we'd been seeking for several difficult, and treacherous days. We had heard that "big monsters" liked to inhabit the pool, but that was the extent of the intelligence we'd been able to gather back in Luskan.
Turns out that it's a brass dragon, and it has plenty of room to use a breath weapon along with Flyby Attack. We're level 6, a straight Archivist, a Sorcerer, a Soulbow multiclass monster, and an orcish Barbarian/Paladin of Slaughter.
The dragon knows about range, and stays out of close range the whole time. We split up, the Soulbow gets pot shots off at it here and there when it gets within her 60' darkvision. The dragon has 120' darkvision, so it's in full control of that situation. And it's really fast, with good saves: we needed a medium range spell to stop or slow it enough for the rest of the party to get in range, apply damage, and keep it from getting away.
It swoops in low to blast the Barbarian, and the Sorcerer tosses up a Great Thunderclap he'd readied. The dragon fails on the stun, and stops. The barbarian gets in range of an Imperious Command, and of course the dragon fails against that one. The Soulbow blasts it.
The dragon is in trouble now, so it's going to Withdraw to get away if it can, and come back after it's healed via UMD and a Lesser Vigor wand (everyone seems to have them). We wanted to kill it, so the Sorcerer keeps using Great Thunderclaps to keep it down. Since it's cowered, and then shaken for awhile, it tends to fail more often, and three more Great Thunderclaps hold it in place (through some misses) to be slain by the Soulbow and the Barbarian.
There aren't too many spells that would have done what Great Thunderclap did for us that game. Ray of Dizziness comes to mind, but our Sorcerer already has several rays and he wanted an area-effect spell.
But spell-wise I'd say Glitterdust + (readied) Slow should have helped a lot to get rid of it. Once both of these hit the dragon can only take a standard action, his speed is divided by 4 and he has to rely on Blindsense. They have a duration so they don't need to be reapplied.
I agree the dragon could still potentially flee... but it was the case in your scenario too - when the Thunderclaps missed he could presumably have withdrawn.
@Rocktopus: I've never been impressed by Rings of Theurgy - you need to use 2 slots to cast one spell. If you find one, the wizard can cast his unused spells in it at the end of the day for the benefit of the sorcerer, I guess, but I would never buy one.
That's a reasonable assessment, but I tend to see them used as basically places to tuck odd spells. They're nice for both wizards and sorcerers, and often they're filled in town, or right before the actual period where you refresh your spells, but after resting. I also use them for odd spells that I can't keep prepared as a wizard, but don't want to burn a rune staff on. Works well in conjunction with Uncanny forethought, since you'd have those slots held open anyway, adding even more versatility to an already over-strong feat.
With a crafter in the party, or mercantile discount, they get very reasonable. They're not for every game, by a wide margin, but they can hold spells that are off-list, which a runestaff can't do. So sometimes it's nice if you have a friendly NPC with one of those classes that has an odd spell list.
I'm planning on using this build.
Core/SRD + Completes-
Human Paragon 1/Figher 1/Martial Transmuter 2/HP+2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 (BAB 18, CL17(9ths))
Thanks in advance for the help guys.
I chose a build!
Human
1) Fighter (Dodge, Spellcasting Prodigy)
2) Conjurer (Imp. Initiative)
3) Conjurer (Combat Casting)
4) Conjurer
5) Conjurer (Quicken)
6) Conjurer (Iron Will)
7) Conjurer
8) Dragonslayer
9) Spellsword (Minor Shapeshift)
This is what I have so far. I plan to use a Great Sword, but I may get a weapon for tripping later on, if I get Imp. Trip
You save 2 feats - which you can use on getting Improved Trip... or Power Attack or Arcane Strike or Knowledge Devotion... the usual.
Do you have reason to think you'll need the Dragonslayer's immunity to fear ? The class is rarely used these days - we have the Abjurant Champion which is much better (you'd need to switch Dragonslayer and Spellsword by the way - they have BAB +5 and BAB +4 prereqs respectively), so I'd drop it in favor of AbjCh.
You save 2 feats - which you can use on getting Improved Trip... or Power Attack or Arcane Strike or Knowledge Devotion... the usual.
True that. I was thinking of dipping into Incantatrix for 4 levels after the AbjChamp tbh, so Iron Will was of use for that PRC too. But yeah, you are right, I'll switch that 1 level to AC and the 2 feats to Power Attack and Knowledge Devotion!
1: {Aggressive OR Spellgifted: Transmutation}, Battle Jump, Leap of the Heavens, [Literacy], [Pounce], Practiced Caster: Wizard, {Quick}
2: [Power Attack], [Sudden Shift OR Hummingbird Familiar]
3: Travel Devotion
6: [Domain Granted Power: Time (Improved Initiative)], Leap Attack
7: [Cleave]
9: Arcane Strike
12: Combat Casting
15: Improved Bull Rush
18: Combat Brute
Edit2: There, should fix it.
Edit3: Well, it seems the build works with Illumians and Human Paragon, so there are actually 2 builds here. ;)
Well, if you want to try something a bit different, race-wise, you could try an Illumian with the Aesh & Krau Power Sigils. That means you use your strength score to determine the number bonus spells you get. You'd get a lot of free, instant bonus spell slots to fuel Arcane Strike like that - Sorcerer and Draconic Polymorph/Polymorph any Object/Shapechange (Titan) + Bite of the Werebear could give you a Strength score of 59, which would give you something like +5 or +4 bonus spells at all levels, not to mention huge size. Neat.
Human Paragon 3 / Battle Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 8
CL 18 (20)
BAB 18
Saves: F/R/W: 9/5/13
ACFs Sorcerer:
-Battle Sorcerer
-Metamagic Specialist
/Feats
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Combat Casting
6 xxx
HP2 (Stand Still)
9 Arcane Strike
12 Dragontouched
15 Invisible Spell (for Arcane Spellsurge)
EK1 (Power Attack)
18 Practised Spellcaster (wizard)
Battle Sorcerer 6 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 9
CL 19 (20)
BAB 18
Saves: F/R/W: 9/6/12
ACFs Sorcerer:
-Battle Sorcerer
-Metamagic Specialist
/Feats
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Combat Casting
6 Stand Still
9 Arcane Strike
12 Dragontouched
15 Invisible Spell (for Arcane Spellsurge)
EK1 (Power Attack)
18 Practised Spellcaster (wizard)
Must-have spells: Wings of Cover, Draconic Polymorph, Arcane Fusion, Greater Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge
Edit: Lol, upz, made a big mistake here. Originally made it for a human. Human Paragon obviously won't work with Illumians. :D
What? Why wouldn't it?
Illumians are human.