Dex based Rogue/Fighter, defensive build - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dex based Rogue/Fighter, defensive build

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ObsidianConspiracy
Jun 27, 2011 18:28:10 I'm at a loss, I'm in a game where we're starting level one, and I'm looking at a duelist style character.

Now the issue is feat choices... I've no idea where to go. The reason.

We're only allowed PhB, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Forgotten Realms Player'd Guide to Faerun. As a result I can't pick up certain feats I'd want to.

As I said, going for a duelist/pirate style, based around precision (Sneak attack) and the like.

Race: Moon Elf

Stats:
Str: 11 Dex: 19 Con: 12 Int: 13 Wis: 11 Cha: 15

So far I've planned Rogue 1/Fighter 2... but that's as far as I've gotten.

Feats: Weapon Finesse... and then using the fighter levels I'm considering picking up combat expertise, improved feint and dodge.

I'll be using a rapier, and a buckler.

Apart from that, does anybody have any ideas to add to this? Because I really am at a loss.
#2
ObsidianConspiracy
Jun 29, 2011 17:54:40 Nobody got any ideas? Piratey/buccaneer type character... the problem is the limited books.
#3
Maat_Mons
Jun 29, 2011 19:29:26
Assuming those ability scores are fixed, I can see two general directions to go. One is the rogue/fighter direction you mentioned. The other is a bard based around perform (weapon drill). Technically, perform (weapon drill) is in Complete Warrior, but it's just impressing people by flourishing your weapon and stuff.
#4
ObsidianConspiracy
Jun 29, 2011 20:13:39 Unfortunately bard is taken by another party member
#5
dmverdandi
Jun 29, 2011 23:31:35 SRD is part of the OGL.
Use a Rogue1/ Sneak Attack thug 19.
Max out Diplomacy, Profession (sail), Swim, use rope, Intimidation, slight of hand and definately use magic device,
Pick Leadership feats and might makes right. Prolly power attack too. Use falchion for attacking.
Shy away from the two handed sneak. Waste of feats. Waste of opportunity.

Get a couple of wands of invisibility, divine power, grease , and web.

Also, Talk with your DM.
No reason for him to be limiting you guys so much. Even if he doesn't have the books you guys do, you can always give him re-printed copies of the rules you want. It isn't just his game, It's yours as well, and for the DM to call a rule that you can only use three out of hundreds of legal sources Isn't just mean. It's downright tyrannical.
Probably the type to go against what everyone wants to do to "tell his epic."

For now, that is all I could do for ya.
Could be better, But I would use your own diplomacy score to convince your DM to give you more options.
He may be thinking of his own campaign world, but what world is solely based on limits? There are variants EVERYWHERE.

For now, that gets you a pretty sneaky fighter who uses magical relics of the sea to help in battle.
Outside, he is a social butterfly who leads with an iron fist, and a gentle outstretched hand

I would pick a druid as the cohort. Could be the hot second mate with the dolphin helper.
Or perhaps a cleric of the sea domain. Someone to tell the tales of the ocean gods to the crew.
Archivist even moreso.
A pirate is only as strong as his crew.
#6
ObsidianConspiracy
Jun 30, 2011 6:35:40 Unfortunately Sneak attack and thug variants are unearthed arcana, and so offlimits. Otherwise I most certainly would've been using them.

And you've said use a flachion, I've stated above the build is meant to be the defensive duelist type. Someone who honourably goes into combat and trades blow for blow, the sneak attack is meant as an indicator of pinpoint damage.

It's particularly feats that I am struggling with, which ones would really help build this kind of character?

Thanks for the help anyways, but it detracks from what I want from this character. Though, leadership is a definate
#7
Krusk
Jun 30, 2011 10:20:47
The problem you are hitting, is that this arch-type really isn't supported in 3.5. The one handed fencer type. Especially in core.

Feats you can benefit from - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Feint is a trap option, and trip is not going to be amazing for this guy, but good enough)

Actually a rogue 8/fighter 2/duelist 10 is probably a good build and doesn't need many feats. (Note duelist is usually pretty bad, but fits your build pretty well.) Add dodge and mobility to your feat choices, and you may as well consider grabbing spring attack.

Duelist is in the DMG, I assume its allowed?

If not, go rogue 18, and go into two weapon fighting. Your offhand weapon can be a small parrying dagger or something to fit the theme. Then you are simply a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger two weapon duelist. If you do this, don't get spring attack, you want to be making as many attacks a round (for sneak attack damage). Spring attack gives 1.
#8
ObsidianConspiracy
Jun 30, 2011 14:29:06 I've said, only books allowed are above. Actually I considered duelist.

As for not supported, it's effectively a 1H wielder with a shield, using a buckler. I'm trying to avoid 2wf, because we've got a two weapon fighter in the game, but I was first to join and then had to take a break :S I'm trying to keep flavour, but have the swashbuckly type. Avoiding Main Gauche style fighting... I did consider a defending dagger.

But yeah, we're only allowed those three books... I have tried :S I even mentioned Duelist, but nope, shame though cos a couple of levels would certainly help

Also, the twf detracts from a defensive build. And my strength isn't high enough to worry about tripping.
#9
dmverdandi
Jun 30, 2011 14:43:47 I agree with krusk.
Trading blows with anyone if you don't have robilar's gambit, are heavily invested in combat feats (cleave is okay for it), and have durability and strength is NOT a good idea. Moreso, duelist's don't trade blows. They thrust, parry and reposte. Even if you were allowed everything, the image you are going for doesn't truly become a "GOOD IDEA" until you introduce tome of battle.

THEN dueling becomes a good idea. A diamond mind fencer could tear things apart if need be, and easily. Before then, a straight combat class basically causes the CR to be automatically dropped due to their lack of versatility and options.

It is a shame your DM is doing this. The faerun books are so racially segregated, that only a handful of the feats introduced actually work without inpiration from heritage or homeland. To do things in faerun, you have to be typecast from a specific place, and have very specific DNA.
And only allowing 2 out of a 20 book setting? Either he is an amatuer or a fool. Sorry, but allowing three books to be played is foolish.

The classes outside of the obvious big 3 THRIVE on supplements, because they are mechanically unstable.
It takes all of the books to make a really good fighter or rogue, but it only takes the PHB to make a good wiz/sor/cler/dru

Rogue seems to be your only hope for now, but without other books, the rogue is hopelessly limited.

For example. The feat " two sword style" In the PGTF, seems to be somewhat up your alley.
It gives a two handed swordfighter +2 ac to any marked/targeted foe.
But you have to take it at level 1, and you have to be proficient in all martial weapons.

For a rogue 20, that is horrid.
I suppose you could go fighter 2/rogue18 and be fine though.
But then you have to think about just how many feats it takes to get two weapon fighting.

Your best bet for feats would be

1. Two sword style
Bonus fighter feats (two weapon fighting, two weapon defense)

3.Combat expertise

6. Leadership

9.Combat reflexes

12.Improved initiative or weapon finesse

15. Improved two weapon fighting

18. Greater two weapon fighting

Best I could do.
#10
TelinArtho
Jun 30, 2011 14:51:13 Rogue at 1st level might be a problem for you - unless you plan to use ranged weapons until ECL3. Weapon finesse carries a prerequisite +1 BAB, which you don't get at Rogue 1.

However, since you aren't going to be a front-line fighter anyway - you should probably use ranged weapons until you can be more defensive (ie - Combat Expertise, Dodge, Tumble, etc).

Improved Feint - I'm inclined to agree it is a trap unless you don't have a way to get the sneak attack otherwise. It looks like you have 1-2 fighter types already in the group - so setting up flanking seems reasonably possible. If that's true - improved disarm might be a decent secondary option (though after Dodge and possibly combat reflexes). If you are planning on more than 2 levels of fighter, I'd also probably not worry about feint as you won't get enough sneak attack damage to worry about it. Improved trip isn't great for you without a higher strength, but it could be useful in special circumstances.

In terms of defense, if you have the feats available - you might grab Improved Unarmed Strike and then Deflect Arrows. Its nice to be able to negate a hit from range when you need to. Of course, 2 feats is a hefty price - but it could be worth it if your DM is ranged attacker heavy.

If you do go with ranged weapons early on, PBS and rapid shot and precise shot are all decent options early on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ObsidianConspiracy Jun 27, 2011 18:28:10	I'm at a loss, I'm in a game where we're starting level one, and I'm looking at a duelist style character. Now the issue is feat choices... I've no idea where to go. The reason. We're only allowed PhB, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Forgotten Realms Player'd Guide to Faerun. As a result I can't pick up certain feats I'd want to. As I said, going for a duelist/pirate style, based around precision (Sneak attack) and the like. Race: Moon Elf Stats: Str: 11 Dex: 19 Con: 12 Int: 13 Wis: 11 Cha: 15 So far I've planned Rogue 1/Fighter 2... but that's as far as I've gotten. Feats: Weapon Finesse... and then using the fighter levels I'm considering picking up combat expertise, improved feint and dodge. I'll be using a rapier, and a buckler. Apart from that, does anybody have any ideas to add to this? Because I really am at a loss.
#2 ObsidianConspiracy Jun 29, 2011 17:54:40	Nobody got any ideas? Piratey/buccaneer type character... the problem is the limited books.
#3 Maat_Mons Jun 29, 2011 19:29:26	Assuming those ability scores are fixed, I can see two general directions to go. One is the rogue/fighter direction you mentioned. The other is a bard based around perform (weapon drill). Technically, perform (weapon drill) is in Complete Warrior, but it's just impressing people by flourishing your weapon and stuff.
#4 ObsidianConspiracy Jun 29, 2011 20:13:39	Unfortunately bard is taken by another party member
#5 dmverdandi Jun 29, 2011 23:31:35	SRD is part of the OGL. Use a Rogue1/ Sneak Attack thug 19. Max out Diplomacy, Profession (sail), Swim, use rope, Intimidation, slight of hand and definately use magic device, Pick Leadership feats and might makes right. Prolly power attack too. Use falchion for attacking. Shy away from the two handed sneak. Waste of feats. Waste of opportunity. Get a couple of wands of invisibility, divine power, grease , and web. Also, Talk with your DM. No reason for him to be limiting you guys so much. Even if he doesn't have the books you guys do, you can always give him re-printed copies of the rules you want. It isn't just his game, It's yours as well, and for the DM to call a rule that you can only use three out of hundreds of legal sources Isn't just mean. It's downright tyrannical. Probably the type to go against what everyone wants to do to "tell his epic." For now, that is all I could do for ya. Could be better, But I would use your own diplomacy score to convince your DM to give you more options. He may be thinking of his own campaign world, but what world is solely based on limits? There are variants EVERYWHERE. For now, that gets you a pretty sneaky fighter who uses magical relics of the sea to help in battle. Outside, he is a social butterfly who leads with an iron fist, and a gentle outstretched hand I would pick a druid as the cohort. Could be the hot second mate with the dolphin helper. Or perhaps a cleric of the sea domain. Someone to tell the tales of the ocean gods to the crew. Archivist even moreso. A pirate is only as strong as his crew.
#6 ObsidianConspiracy Jun 30, 2011 6:35:40	Unfortunately Sneak attack and thug variants are unearthed arcana, and so offlimits. Otherwise I most certainly would've been using them. And you've said use a flachion, I've stated above the build is meant to be the defensive duelist type. Someone who honourably goes into combat and trades blow for blow, the sneak attack is meant as an indicator of pinpoint damage. It's particularly feats that I am struggling with, which ones would really help build this kind of character? Thanks for the help anyways, but it detracks from what I want from this character. Though, leadership is a definate
#7 Krusk Jun 30, 2011 10:20:47	The problem you are hitting, is that this arch-type really isn't supported in 3.5. The one handed fencer type. Especially in core. Feats you can benefit from - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Feint is a trap option, and trip is not going to be amazing for this guy, but good enough) Actually a rogue 8/fighter 2/duelist 10 is probably a good build and doesn't need many feats. (Note duelist is usually pretty bad, but fits your build pretty well.) Add dodge and mobility to your feat choices, and you may as well consider grabbing spring attack. Duelist is in the DMG, I assume its allowed? If not, go rogue 18, and go into two weapon fighting. Your offhand weapon can be a small parrying dagger or something to fit the theme. Then you are simply a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger two weapon duelist. If you do this, don't get spring attack, you want to be making as many attacks a round (for sneak attack damage). Spring attack gives 1.
#8 ObsidianConspiracy Jun 30, 2011 14:29:06	I've said, only books allowed are above. Actually I considered duelist. As for not supported, it's effectively a 1H wielder with a shield, using a buckler. I'm trying to avoid 2wf, because we've got a two weapon fighter in the game, but I was first to join and then had to take a break :S I'm trying to keep flavour, but have the swashbuckly type. Avoiding Main Gauche style fighting... I did consider a defending dagger. But yeah, we're only allowed those three books... I have tried :S I even mentioned Duelist, but nope, shame though cos a couple of levels would certainly help Also, the twf detracts from a defensive build. And my strength isn't high enough to worry about tripping.
#9 dmverdandi Jun 30, 2011 14:43:47	I agree with krusk. Trading blows with anyone if you don't have robilar's gambit, are heavily invested in combat feats (cleave is okay for it), and have durability and strength is NOT a good idea. Moreso, duelist's don't trade blows. They thrust, parry and reposte. Even if you were allowed everything, the image you are going for doesn't truly become a "GOOD IDEA" until you introduce tome of battle. THEN dueling becomes a good idea. A diamond mind fencer could tear things apart if need be, and easily. Before then, a straight combat class basically causes the CR to be automatically dropped due to their lack of versatility and options. It is a shame your DM is doing this. The faerun books are so racially segregated, that only a handful of the feats introduced actually work without inpiration from heritage or homeland. To do things in faerun, you have to be typecast from a specific place, and have very specific DNA. And only allowing 2 out of a 20 book setting? Either he is an amatuer or a fool. Sorry, but allowing three books to be played is foolish. The classes outside of the obvious big 3 THRIVE on supplements, because they are mechanically unstable. It takes all of the books to make a really good fighter or rogue, but it only takes the PHB to make a good wiz/sor/cler/dru Rogue seems to be your only hope for now, but without other books, the rogue is hopelessly limited. For example. The feat " two sword style" In the PGTF, seems to be somewhat up your alley. It gives a two handed swordfighter +2 ac to any marked/targeted foe. But you have to take it at level 1, and you have to be proficient in all martial weapons. For a rogue 20, that is horrid. I suppose you could go fighter 2/rogue18 and be fine though. But then you have to think about just how many feats it takes to get two weapon fighting. Your best bet for feats would be 1. Two sword style Bonus fighter feats (two weapon fighting, two weapon defense) 3.Combat expertise 6. Leadership 9.Combat reflexes 12.Improved initiative or weapon finesse 15. Improved two weapon fighting 18. Greater two weapon fighting Best I could do.
#10 TelinArtho Jun 30, 2011 14:51:13	Rogue at 1st level might be a problem for you - unless you plan to use ranged weapons until ECL3. Weapon finesse carries a prerequisite +1 BAB, which you don't get at Rogue 1. However, since you aren't going to be a front-line fighter anyway - you should probably use ranged weapons until you can be more defensive (ie - Combat Expertise, Dodge, Tumble, etc). Improved Feint - I'm inclined to agree it is a trap unless you don't have a way to get the sneak attack otherwise. It looks like you have 1-2 fighter types already in the group - so setting up flanking seems reasonably possible. If that's true - improved disarm might be a decent secondary option (though after Dodge and possibly combat reflexes). If you are planning on more than 2 levels of fighter, I'd also probably not worry about feint as you won't get enough sneak attack damage to worry about it. Improved trip isn't great for you without a higher strength, but it could be useful in special circumstances. In terms of defense, if you have the feats available - you might grab Improved Unarmed Strike and then Deflect Arrows. Its nice to be able to negate a hit from range when you need to. Of course, 2 feats is a hefty price - but it could be worth it if your DM is ranged attacker heavy. If you do go with ranged weapons early on, PBS and rapid shot and precise shot are all decent options early on.