A friend of mine decided to build a low-to-no magic campaign based on the Shannara novels by Terry Brooks. For races, we're only allowed human, elf, dwarf, and half orc has been replaced by some rock race (with the same stats, just different physical appearance). For classes, we have access to practically any 3.5 book, except we're only allowed non-arcane casting and very limited divine casting. Some of the restrictions for classes aren't very well defined, such as the Tome of Battle's blade magic (aka, maneuvers), but the DM allowed an exception because they are similar to something a character could do in the series.
We're starting at level 1, with all equipment (up to masterwork level) provided to us by "elves". We are not expecting to pass level 15 even by the end of the campaign. We roll our stats 4d6 take top 3, reroll ones.
Besides this character, we'll have
Human Fighter/ranger/thrower specialist (still picking Prestige Class)
Elven Healer
Elven Fighter (using a greatsword)
Human Swashbuckler/Dervish (My Girl, playing my character's 'best friend for life' because DM won't let us be married in this setting)
Elf Swashbuckler/Tempest
Elf Rogue (sister of tempest in game)
Elf bard (total bigot in game)
DM is also granting everyone a SLA usable once per day. Mine is Bulls Strength (Caster level= character level). DM said that others will have more powerful SLA's (mainly because he's intimidated by my fullblade lol).
I decided to build a warblade. I've only played a warblade once before, and it was a brief, yet glorious character. Anyway here is my build so far, some stuff isn't finished yet.
Charles Armstrong
Rock troll (half orc equivilant) Warblade 15
Str 20 (17 base +2 Racial +1 inherent level 4)
Dex 16 (15 base +1 inherent level 8)
Con 16 (16 base)
Int 14 (16 base -2 Racial)
Wis 14 (13 base +1 inherent level 12)
Cha 8 (10 base -2 Racial)
Flaws: Shaky (-2 ranged attacks), Weak Willed (-3 will saves)
Feats -
Show
1: Power Attack
Fl 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade (AEG))
Fl 2: Vital Recovery
3: Improved Bull Rush
5 (warblade bonus feat): Improved Initiative
6: Leap Attack
9: (warblade bonus feat): combat reflexes
9: Shock Trooper
12: Robilar's Gambit
12 (warblade bonus): Blind Fight
15: --?
Fl 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade (AEG))
Fl 2: Vital Recovery
3: Improved Bull Rush
5 (warblade bonus feat): Improved Initiative
6: Leap Attack
9: (warblade bonus feat): combat reflexes
9: Shock Trooper
12: Robilar's Gambit
12 (warblade bonus): Blind Fight
15: --?
That being said, that's just RAW. If you can get that allowed, go for it, fine.
I take it you're not building Guts here, per se...
Lose Improved Critical, get a Scabbard of Keen Edges.
Look here for inspiration and more links:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956362
Monkey Grip Does Not Allow You To Wield A Large Two-Handed Weapon(tm)
Lose Improved Critical, get a Scabbard of Keen Edges.
He's in a low magic campaign, so magic items might not be available-- in that case, Improved Critical could be decent.
Monkey Grip does allow you to wield a Large two-handed weapon as well, unless I'm missing some errata-- it's just not usually worth the -2 penalty that's imposed. With a two-handed weapon, Power Attack will give you nearly the same results as wielding a Large full-blade. (-2 = 4 damage w/Power Attack; -2 = 4.5 (1d8) damage w/monkey gripped full blade) And with Power Attack, you can turn it off and on.
Benefit: You can use melee weapons one size category
larger than you are with a –2 penalty on the attack roll, but
the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does
not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed
weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed
weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat.
For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered
a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as
a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands.
You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you
cannot use this feat with a double weapon.
I would consider replacing Vital Recovery with Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) unless you're not allowed to take supernatural maneuvers. You can use that multiple times per battle and it will open up Martial Stance (Martial Spirit) as an option for continous healing.
In a low magic campaign with limited healing, I would definitely not take Punishing Stance, which is going to increase the amount of damage that you take as well.
Murky-Eyed is another area where I would be very leary-- if you're fighting at night or in a cave by torchlight you're going to be in trouble with that flaw. Depending on how low magic this is, you might want to consider Weak Will (since will saves should be few and far between) or just drop the second flaw entirely.
He's in a low magic campaign, so magic items might not be available-- in that case, Improved Critical could be decent.
I don't think it's worth a feat. From what I remember, the damage boost from increasing your critical range like that is really, really small.
He could spend his feats on stuff that improves mobility, or gives him a better power attack multiplier, or a domain granted power.
I don't think it's worth a feat. From what I remember, the damage boost from increasing your critical range like that is really, really small.
He could spend his feats on stuff that improves mobility, or gives him a better power attack multiplier, or a domain granted power.
its not really that hard to find out by basic napkin math its the sum of n=1 to n=20 of (m)/20 where
m ={0 when n=1, 0 when n<=cn>c,1+b(multiplier-1) where c where B=sum of n=1 to n=20 of (z)/20 where
z ={0 when n=1, 0 when n<=c,1 when n>c,1 when n=20}
where
c =AC-chance to hit(aka Bab + strength+ other modifiers to your hit)
where multiplier= factor by which damage is multiplied by on a crit.
and where threat= number which a threat to a crit is initiated.(ex:19-20 the 19 would be the threat)
which may sound like a ***** to solve but its not that bad really as the points of inflection are c>=1, 1
So when c>=1 an average swing is worth =(threat-2)(1/20)+(21-threat)((1+(19/20)(multiplier-1))/20) times the damage of a hit.
So for say a fullblade its =17/20+2((1+38/20)/20)=19/20+38/400=1.045 times damage on average swing with out imp crit and its =15/20+4(1+(19/20)/20)=19/20+76/400=1.14 times damage on an average swing with imp crit which is a 9.0(ish)% increases in damage for imp crit. factored last after most everything else such as power attack.
so when 1
At this point i wish i could graph that but sadly i can't. but its clear that as c increases the difference of the damages decreases
so when c=threat-1 an average swing is worth=(21-threat)((1+((21-threat)/20)(multiplier-1))/20)
easiest point to compare now at c=16 or when for imp crit its always a threat. With imp crit. 4((1+4/20)/20)=4/20+16/400=.24 damage on an average swing.
vs. with out imp crit=2(1/20)+2(1+4/20)/20=4/20+8/400=.22 damage on an average swing
or imp crit is a 9.0(ish)% increases in damage factored after everything else.
20>c=>threat an average swing is worth=(21-c)((1+((20-c)/20))(multiplier-1))/20)
so if we compare now at c=18
with imp crit=2((1+2/20)/20)=2/20+2/400
w/o imp crit=2((1+2/20)/20)=2/20+2/400
so when c=18 imp crit does nothing. for a full blade and any other 19-20/x2 weapon.
Now im going to get lazy and say i will workout the next part later but so far it looks like with a 19-20/x2 weapon imp crit is a flat 9.0(ish)% increases in damage assuming no trigers on a crit.(aka blood in the water or something like that.)
http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php
;)
(For what it's worth, it looks like it might not be worth it-- at its best it only seems to add about 7 or 8 damage to average damage with ideal power attacking on a low AC opponent. It gets worse as AC improves.)
Or you could use this:
http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php
;)
(For what it's worth, it looks like it might not be worth it-- at its best it only seems to add about 7 or 8 damage to average damage with ideal power attacking on a low AC opponent. It gets worse as AC improves.)
b-but... its so much more fun to derive it from scratch...
and it looks like they ****ed up a bit when you have an AC higher then your threat range... imp. crit can never lower you damage out put like they seam to think... and its a good thing that i did do the rest of the estaminets as m={0 when threat<=n<=c} rather then m={B when threat<=n<=c).
and my magical 9.0(ish)% is still interacted with there data.
On a second note you could try for Robilar's Gambit and Stormguard both of which are nice on there own but even better together, but i think Shocktrooper is more in line with the idea of the build. While i hate to say it as i like imp crit a lot its not really that good with what you have going for you, Imp trip with Shocktrooper will let you do decent battle control and get free attacks from it when you push someone into another person and if your going to do that might as well go 2 levels fighter for dungeon crusher and a free feat which you could spend on knockback, but thats optional.
I also think that your build pushes you more to tiger claw or iron heart Pouncing Charge (Strike 5),Sudden Leap (boots 1) which feeds well into Battle Jump but as your in a low magic campaign getting the jump DC reliably might be a bit hard and who ever said diping crusader or taking martial study to get one of the healing strikes is vary right they are vary nice both of them.
I would actually grab atleast 1 lvl of crusader. Get Martial spirit stance to get yourself SOME healing. Dont spend a feat just to get a maneuver? thats just stupid. Its better to take the class levels.
If you take the feat, it keys off of your warblade initiator level rather than crusader + half of your warblade adept level. You're also not delaying your progression and you can use the warblade recovery method for more consistent access. There are reasons to do it.
I dont really understand why you have both Monkey Grip and Exotic weapon proficiency (Fullblade) as of my reading of Fullblade states that with exotic weapon proficiency (Fullblade) is a 2-handed weapon unless you are going for a fullblade in one hand...
It states in the AEG that a Fullblade requires special training, and is thus an exotic weapon for medium creatures. It says that large creatures can use it as a martial weapon in 2 hands or take exotic weapon proficiency and use it in one hand (I.E. a bigger bastard sword.).
On a second note you could try for Robilar's Gambit and Stormguard both of which are nice on there own but even better together, but i think Shocktrooper is more in line with the idea of the build. While i hate to say it as i like imp crit a lot its not really that good with what you have going for you, Imp trip with Shocktrooper will let you do decent battle control and get free attacks from it when you push someone into another person and if your going to do that might as well go 2 levels fighter for dungeon crusher and a free feat which you could spend on knockback, but thats optional.
Robilar's gambit seems a bit risky considering the low-magic nature of the campaign. Stormguard Warrior seems very situational. Shocktrooper is cool, but I'd have to plan most of my allotted feats to use it. I'm thinking of perhaps avoiding tactical feats if at all possible.
I also think that your build pushes you more to tiger claw or iron heart Pouncing Charge (Strike 5),Sudden Leap (boots 1) which feeds well into Battle Jump but as your in a low magic campaign getting the jump DC reliably might be a bit hard and who ever said diping crusader or taking martial study to get one of the healing strikes is vary right they are vary nice both of them.
A good Idea, I think I'll be replacing a couple of things in the build.
Now im going to get lazy and say i will workout the next part later but so far it looks like with a 19-20/x2 weapon imp crit is a flat 9.0(ish)% increases in damage assuming no trigers on a crit.(aka blood in the water or something like that.)
9% isn't really a lot of damage considering I'll only be doing about 20-30 damage on a non-crit swing. I think I'll be dropping improved critical.
I would consider replacing Vital Recovery with Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) unless you're not allowed to take supernatural maneuvers. You can use that multiple times per battle and it will open up Martial Stance (Martial Spirit) as an option for continous healing.
In a low magic campaign with limited healing, I would definitely not take Punishing Stance, which is going to increase the amount of damage that you take as well.
Murky-Eyed is another area where I would be very leary-- if you're fighting at night or in a cave by torchlight you're going to be in trouble with that flaw. Depending on how low magic this is, you might want to consider Weak Will (since will saves should be few and far between) or just drop the second flaw entirely.
All good advice, I will replace vital recovery with martial study (crusader's strike), and switch impoved critical for martial stance (martial spirit) or something along those lines.
Punishing stance is sub-par, but I was getting drunk by the numbers. At level 1 and having the ability to kill most lvl 3-5's in 1 hit is very intoxicating.
I did consider using weak-willed because I'll be getting the diamond mind counter which uses a concentration check instead of a will save, as well as the fact that without magic, there aren't many will saves. It felt too cheesy, but it really is practical. I'll do it!
Lose Improved Critical, get a Scabbard of Keen Edges.
Can't do it, unfortunately, no magic
.Traits: quick (-1 HP/level for 10' bonus to speed.)
Feats:
1: Monkey Grip
Hu. 1: Martial Study (crusader's strike)
Fl 1: Martial Stance (Martial spirit)
Fl 2: Exotic weapon proficiency (Fullblade)
3: Power Attack
5 (warblade bonus feat): Improved Initiative
6: Leap Attack
7 (warblade bonus feat): combat reflexes
9: --?
12: Robilar's Gambit
13-15: Not too worried about these levels at this point.
Maneuvers:
Sudden Leap
Steel Wind
Moment of Perfect Mind
Blood in the water (stance)
It states in the AEG that a Fullblade requires special training, and is thus an exotic weapon for medium creatures. It says that large creatures can use it as a martial weapon in 2 hands or take exotic weapon proficiency and use it in one hand (I.E. a bigger bastard sword.).
ahh i was reading the sword and fist one which is a little less damage(6.5 vs. 9 average damage) but one less feat intensive, and a lot better written.
Robilar's gambit seems a bit risky considering the low-magic nature of the campaign. Stormguard Warrior seems very situational. Shocktrooper is cool, but I'd have to plan most of my allotted feats to use it. I'm thinking of perhaps avoiding tactical feats if at all possible.
Yeah i can understand how tactical feats make problems. Stormguard Warrior from personal experience is really nice if you have a problem hitting thanks to combat rhythm, which will be a problem for you with Monkey Grip.
and Robilar's always risky with out reliable combat healing.
6: Leap Attack
7 (warblade bonus feat): combat reflexes
9: --?
12: Robilar's Gambit
13-15: Not too worried about these levels at this point.
Maneuvers:
Sudden Leap
Steel Wind
Moment of Perfect Mind
Blood in the water (stance)
Warblades get their bonus feats at 5, 9, 13, and 17-- so the feat at 7th gets pushed back a couple levels.
If you're looking for the ability to adapt to a given battle, you might want to consider picking up Adaptive Style. At 12th level, I would consider Martial Study (Rallying Strike) to replace Crusader's Strike as well. In fact, if your DM allows retraining, I would also see if he'll let you do some feat shifting at 3rd and 6th level. If he allows that, then retrain along the following lines: 3rd level, retrain 1st to power attack and take Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) again, at 6th retrain your 3rd level feat to Leap Attack and take Martial Study (Revitalizing Strike). If you want Rallying Strike to heal the whole party you'll need both your strike and stance to meet prerequisites.
For Sudden Leap and Blood in the Water, you're going to need Wolf Fang Strike as well unfortunately. (It's literally the only 1st level Tiger Claw maneuver without a prerequisite.)
Warblades get their bonus feats at 5, 9, 13, and 17-- so the feat at 7th gets pushed back a couple levels.
Argh, my numbers are a little screwed up, AFB when I made first post.
Feats --I haven't planned out my maneuvers for every level yet, but I will be doing so. . . soon.
1: Monkey Grip
Hu. 1: Martial Study (crusader's strike)
Fl 1: Martial Stance (Island of Blades)
Fl 2: Exotic weapon proficiency (Fullblade)
3: Power Attack
5 (warblade bonus feat): Improved Initiative
6: Leap Attack
9: (warblade bonus feat): combat reflexes
9: --? (likely martial study or martial stance)
12: Robilar's Gambit
13 (warblade bonus): Blind Fight
15: --?(probably another martial study or martial stance)
If you're looking for the ability to adapt to a given battle, you might want to consider picking up Adaptive Style. At 12th level, I would consider Martial Study (Rallying Strike) to replace Crusader's Strike as well. In fact, if your DM allows retraining, I would also see if he'll let you do some feat shifting at 3rd and 6th level. If he allows that, then retrain along the following lines: 3rd level, retrain 1st to power attack and take Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) again, at 6th retrain your 3rd level feat to Leap Attack and take Martial Study (Revitalizing Strike). If you want Rallying Strike to heal the whole party you'll need both your strike and stance to meet prerequisites.
I don't think he'd allow me to use retraining in that way if it worked, since I wouldn't have met the prereqs for leap attack at 3rd level, rallying strike at 1st level, or.. well I just can't see that working. It would be better, yes, but he wouldn't allow it.
For Sudden Leap and Blood in the Water, you're going to need Wolf Fang Strike as well unfortunately. (It's literally the only 1st level Tiger Claw maneuver without a prerequisite.)
Yikes, I didn't see the silly prereqs for 1st level tiger claw stuff. Luckily I was digging in the book and I redid my entire maneuver/stance selection thus far. After reading, I checked it over and it doesn't break the prerequisite rules.
Maneuvers at level 1 (revamped):
Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Steel Wind
Moment of Perfect Mind
Punishing Stance
Island of Blades (Through Martial Stance Feat)
Crusader Strike (Through Martial Study Feat)
I decided to put more emphasis on my ability to hit (flanking and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, switching to punishing stance if enemy is too hard to take down, no power attack until 3rd level, etc) Most stuff will be going down in 1 hit until I hit monsters with more than 20ish HP (shouldn't be too long).
ahh i was reading the sword and fist one which is a little less damage(6.5 vs. 9 average damage) but one less feat intensive, and a lot better written.
For those who don't know the fullblade in the AEG does 2d8 damage (3d8 for large Fullblade) and requires exotic weapon proficiency for medium creatures. I have not played through any final fantasy games (buster sword), my character is just compensating (clearly).
I don't think he'd allow me to use retraining in that way if it worked, since I wouldn't have met the prereqs for leap attack at 3rd level, rallying strike at 1st level, or.. well I just can't see that working. It would be better, yes, but he wouldn't allow it.
The second set of retraining was actually intended to address the fact that you wouldn't qualify at lower levels, though I forgot to check on the Leap Attack prerequisites, so it might not work out. The basic concept was shifting feats with few prerequisites down into lower slots where you did qualify as you leveled (i.e. shifting Power Attack into your 1st level slot when you were at 3rd level and then pushing Martial Study up to your most recent slot.) That way you could take Revitilizing Strike which heals more dice and has a higher level cap once you got to 6th. The Leap Attack prerequisites don't work with that anyway though and you need a second Devoted Spirit maneuver to pull it off as well. (i.e. the stance you used to have).
Rallying Strike you actually would have needed to take outright, since it has 2 maneuver prerequisites. I didn't revise my earlier sentence when I worked that out.
Are you certain that you want use large fullblade, it is not really good, it does little more damage if you hit, but with power attack difference is marginal:large fullblade dam:3d8+4str~17,5, great sword dam:2d6+4str~11+power attack (weapon focus, no morkey grip= +3 to hit = +6 to damage with two hander, so average damage=13 just ½ lower than fullblade when to hit bonus is equal and most of your manouvers requires that you hit before they take effect. Exampe greatsword had only one feat used against two of large fullblade, with 2 feats used normal sized fullblade would be better than large one.
You can't take Martial Stance (Island of Blades if you don't have any manouvers from shadow hand) and i would advice against martial study and martial stace feats anyway, they give you options, but you allready have stances and manouvers from you class and there is feats around which help you when you use your normal manouvers and stances.
Feats:
Human: Power Attack
Lvl1:Exotic Weapon Profiency:Fullblade
Flaw1:Weapon Focus:Fullblade
Flaw2
ital Recovery (usually bad feat, but without magical healing...., better than crusader strike because it doesn't require hit and it scales with iniator level and doesn't waste action to use.)Lvl3:Improved Bull Rush
Warblade5:Improved Iniative
Lvl6:Shock Trooper
Lvl9:
Warblade9:
Lvl12:
Your starting to hit bonus would be +5 or +6 if you ger MW fullblade, probably lot easier to find than large MW fullblade and damage 2d8+4 would still be enought to one shot most low level encounters and you could use power attack and lvl9 you would get pounching charge manouver and with it and shock trooper you would do some damage+sudden leap to move out. You could also chance race to half orc rock people because you dont really need that extra feat and str bonus could help and darkvision is also really good expecially when it is hard to get it magically.
Jump attack would be handy if it would work with pounching charge manouver, but it says "This attack must follow all the normal..." so i think it doesn't work and one attack is not enough.
Because without magic defence is lot more important than offence you should consider using spiked chain
Warblade Spiked Chain build
Human:Jotunbrud(races of faerun)
Lvl1:Exotic Weapon Profiency:Spiked Chain
Flaw1:Combat Expertice
Flaw2:Improved Trip
Lvl3: Power Attack
Warblade5:Combat Reflexes
Lvl6:Improved Bull Rush
Lvl9:Shock Trooper
At start you just trip and use punishing stance when they are down. Later levels weapons damage doesn't really matter because most damage comes from power attack anyway. You would just charge with pounching charge manouver and and full power attack with shock trooper, then jump backward with sudden leap and trip them when they try to come at striking distance.
Two Exotic Weapon master levels would give exotic weapon flurry and help with trips...
You could also consider taking two swordsage levels
Warblade2, Swordsage2, Warblade+++
Human:Jotunbrud
Flaw1:Exotic Weapon profiency:Spiked Chain
Flaw2:Combat Expertice
Lvl1:Improved Trip
Lvl3:Combat Reflexes->retrain to power attack when you get warblade level5
Swordsage1: Discipline Focus:Weapon Focus:Shadow Hand
Lvl6:Shadow Blade->retrain to improve bull rush when you get lvl9
Warblade5:Combat reflexes
Lvl9:Shock Trooper
Warblade9:Improved Iniative
Lvl12:Shadow Blade or evasive reflexes
Lvl1 your attack bonus would be +4 and your trip check would be +11. Damage 2d4+4 wouln't be that great but after trip you would turn punishing stance on and just keep them down and attack from reach.
Lvl6:your to hit bonus would be: 5bab+1focus+1MWweapon+4str=+11 pure warblade would have two attacks, but you could use Flashing Sun to get even and level later you could use it to get third attack. It would be really hard to attack you because you would trip from reach and use sudden leap to keep distance in your turn. In difficulty terrain you would really rule with Step Of The Wind Stance. Damage wouln't be really great but not bad either:2d4+6str+3dex+d6punishing stance~17½ You could use punishing stance because it would be lot harder to enemies to get full attack against you and wis to AC would make that difference anyway. After level 7 you could use power attack which would help damage.
Problem with your build is sucks as hitting things and it doesn't have reach or great AC so it does have good chance that you get hits practically every battle. Your damage is great but because you can't hit it doesn't help and if magical healing is rare it just doesn't work, crusader strike could help but problem with it is that it requires hit to work. So against any defensive build your build fail.
Are you certain that you want use large fullblade, it is not really good, it does little more damage if you hit, but with power attack difference is marginal:large fullblade dam:3d8+4str~17,5, great sword dam:2d6+4str~11+power attack (weapon focus, no morkey grip= +3 to hit = +6 to damage with two hander, so average damage=13 just ½ lower than fullblade when to hit bonus is equal and most of your manouvers requires that you hit before they take effect. Exampe greatsword had only one feat used against two of large fullblade, with 2 feats used normal sized fullblade would be better than large one.
I have my heart set on fullblade. It is a rediculously oversized weapon, and that is what I am going for. It will be easier to hit with in a few levels when I can pick up the Emerald Razor maneuver (DM S 2) and have the option of touch or Flat-Footed opponents with Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM S 1)). It's not optimal, I know, but I want to do it.
You can't take Martial Stance (Island of Blades if you don't have any manouvers from shadow hand) and i would advice against martial study and martial stace feats anyway, they give you options, but you allready have stances and manouvers from you class and there is feats around which help you when you use your normal manouvers and stances.
I missed the part in the feat that said that, and through this and something you state later, I think I have a solution. I will drop that feat when I switch to the half-orc rock people race. I'll miss the skill points, but for darkvision and more strength it should be worth it. I have to talk to my girlfriend, though, because we were going to play brother and sister (she wants to play a swashbuckler/dervish).
Feats:
Human: Power Attack
Lvl1:Exotic Weapon Profiency:Fullblade
Flaw1:Weapon Focus:Fullblade
Flaw2
Lvl3:Improved Bull Rush
Warblade5:Improved Iniative
Lvl6:Shock Trooper
Lvl9:
Warblade9:
Lvl12:
This actually sounds better than when I first looked at shock trooper. I must admit I am a little against using tactical feats (requires extra thinking during battles), but shock trooper is decent. I may change some stuff.
Your starting to hit bonus would be +5 or +6 if you ger MW fullblade, probably lot easier to find than large MW fullblade and damage 2d8+4 would still be enought to one shot most low level encounters and you could use power attack and lvl9 you would get pounching charge manouver and with it and shock trooper you would do some damage+sudden leap to move out. You could also chance race to half orc rock people because you dont really need that extra feat and str bonus could help and darkvision is also really good expecially when it is hard to get it magically.
Point taken. It would be both easier to get a MW fullblade, Better for strength, and easier to see at night as the rock man. Still gotta talk to the girlfriend about that one, though.
Jump attack would be handy if it would work with pounching charge manouver, but it says "This attack must follow all the normal..." so i think it doesn't work and one attack is not enough.
Hmm, that's interesting. This means I would have to make the dc 10 jump check for 10' jump (holy crap am I reading this right, that's way too low!). By the time I reach level 4, I can make that check on a 1. Pretty funny I think.
Because without magic defence is lot more important than offence you should consider using spiked chain
Warblade Spiked Chain build....
I have to pass. I want to use fullblade as my primary weapon.
You could also consider taking two swordsage levels
Warblade2, Swordsage2, Warblade+++. . . .
I am considering that somewhat. I really am trying to stick to just warblade for simplicity (and access to higher level maneuvers).
Thanks for the advice, now here's the changes I will make taking what you suggested to heart.
Race: Rock man (Er, the half-orc w/o orc blooded and with different appearance)
Feats --I haven't planned out my maneuvers for every level yet, but I will be doing so. . . soon.
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Fl 1: Power Attack
Fl 2: Vital Recovery
3: Improved Bull Rush
5: (Warblade bonus feat): Improved Initiative
6: Leap Attack
9: (Warblade bonus feat): Combat Reflexes
9: Shock Trooper
12: Robilar's Gambit
13: (Warblade bonus): Blind Fight
15: Weapon Focus (chainsaw)
I was talking with the DM, and it looks like our party is very melee-oriented.
Besides this character, we'll have
Healer (Minis) - she was going to play a cleric, but DM changed his mind about cleric casting.
Fighter/Kensai
Swashbuckler/Dervish
Bard/bard prestige class
probably a rogue (not sure about this guy)
DM is also granting everyone a SLA usable once per day. Mine is Bulls Strength (Caster level= character level). DM said that others will have more powerful SLA's (mainly because he's intimidated by my fullblade lol).
Also, some magic will be usable, but only divine magic, and no summons. Spell lists are really under DM's digressions.
This actually sounds better than when I first looked at shock trooper. I must admit I am a little against using tactical feats (requires extra thinking during battles), but shock trooper is decent. I may change some stuff.
Shock Trooper does tend to lower your AC even further though, which can be dangerous. Since you mentioned you have a healer below, that might not be as much of an issue as we thought though.
Hmm, that's interesting. This means I would have to make the dc 10 jump check for 10' jump (holy crap am I reading this right, that's way too low!). By the time I reach level 4, I can make that check on a 1. Pretty funny I think.
Keep in mind that if you don't have a 20 foot running start, Jump DCs are doubled unless you have either Leap of the Heavens (the feat) or Leaping Dragon (the Tiger Claw stance).
I am considering that somewhat. I really am trying to stick to just warblade for simplicity (and access to higher level maneuvers).
One of the benefits that you might want to consider with two levels of another class (and crusader might be another good option here), is that it offsets the level you gain access to new stances. That puts you into position to get your 3rd level stances with Warblade 4, rather than picking up a stance from 1st. (Though it does delay your 5th level stances later.)
Are you planning to drop down to a chain shirt or will a mithril breastplate be available in the future? Without light armor, I would say Swordsage probably loses out to Crusader for this type of tradeoff (though the type of maneuvers you want also comes into play). Actually, thinking about it-- steely resolve + Stone Power could be more useful than normal in a low-magic campaign as well.
Healer (Minis) - she was going to play a cleric, but DM changed his mind about cleric casting.
Also, some magic will be usable, but only divine magic, and no summons. Spell lists are really under DM's digressions.
With a healer in the party, you're definitely not as dependent on the healing you can get yourself. I do still tend to think that the healing strikes would be more useful overall though, since you can heal yourself or others. (And without the -2 from monkey grip, you should be in good shape to hit.)
You might also want to consider the Hunter's Senses stance for Scent since you don't have a ranger. That should allow you to do some limited tracking-- and I've run into very few games personally where Track doesn't come into play at some point. It also helps you avoid being caught by surprise despite potentially poor Spot and Listen.
Shock Trooper does tend to lower your AC even further though, which can be dangerous. Since you mentioned you have a healer below, that might not be as much of an issue as we thought though.
This is true. I'm not relying on the healer because its her first time playing the game and I'm sure she'll have her hands full figuring out what we're doing.
Keep in mind that if you don't have a 20 foot running start, Jump DCs are doubled unless you have either Leap of the Heavens (the feat) or Leaping Dragon (the Tiger Claw stance).
I have been planning on taking leaping dragon stance, since it really fits well with the leap attack feat (although I do believe I still need to make the jump check, jumping without running is nice for it!)
One of the benefits that you might want to consider with two levels of another class (and crusader might be another good option here), is that it offsets the level you gain access to new stances. That puts you into position to get your 3rd level stances with Warblade 4, rather than picking up a stance from 1st. (Though it does delay your 5th level stances later.)
I am still working on my maneuver plans.. its taking longer than I had anticipated.
Are you planning to drop down to a chain shirt or will a mithril breastplate be available in the future? Without light armor, I would say Swordsage probably loses out to Crusader for this type of tradeoff (though the type of maneuvers you want also comes into play). Actually, thinking about it-- steely resolve + Stone Power could be more useful than normal in a low-magic campaign as well.
DM said that most special materials are unavailable. Basically nothing that would be from another plane, mithril, or anything you wouldn't find on earth. I'm debating whether 10' more movement is worth 1 A.C. and some skill penalties, but when I put it that way, it sounds a lot better to take the chainshirt.. I think I will :D
With a healer in the party, you're definitely not as dependent on the healing you can get yourself. I do still tend to think that the healing strikes would be more useful overall though, since you can heal yourself or others. (And without the -2 from monkey grip, you should be in good shape to hit.)
I'm going to skip the strike because it uses up one of my readied maneuvers. Vital recovery comes naturally once per fight (at the end I recover maneuvers automatically), so its a guarenteed heal. If I want to hit (even better), I will be using Diamond Mind maneuvers.
You might also want to consider the Hunter's Senses stance for Scent since you don't have a ranger. That should allow you to do some limited tracking-- and I've run into very few games personally where Track doesn't come into play at some point. It also helps you avoid being caught by surprise despite potentially poor Spot and Listen.
I'm passing on hunters sense (and tiger claw maneuvers) until I can use second level maneuvers. Wolf fang strike doesn't work for me, but it is the only tiger claw maneuver without a prerequisite. Scent would be nice, though, I may take it when I gain access to those second level maneuvers.
Of those 5 maneuvers good ones to get in campaigns where you arent flying are (aka stone dragon should not be a problem) i would say that these are nice:
Charging Minotaur(SD 1) so that you can bullrush and do damage and be an all around dick by triping people with each other.
crusader's strike(DS 1) for some healing at a rate of 1d6+2(for ever crusader level)+1/2(for everything else) until you get +5
Leading the attack(WR 1) so you can get white raven tactics with out wasting a maneuver of warblade.
Stone Bones(SD 1) to make it so you least have some protection.
for the 2 stances i would suggest that you go:
Martial Sprite(DS 1) for some healing to kind of pass around to slow damage when needed(its not really that amazing but ok)
Iron guards glare(DS 1) to help peoples AC.
Also this means for level 2 warblade you are a able to get 2nd level maneuvers
and progression looks like this
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Fl 1: Power Attack
Fl 2: Vital Recovery
3: Improved Bull Rush
6: Leap Attack
7: (Warblade bonus feat): Improved Initiative
9: Shock Trooper
11: (Warblade bonus feat): Combat Reflexes
12: Robilar's Gambit
15: (Warblade bonus): Blind Fight
15: Weapon Focus (chainsaw)
with maneuvers going like this
1:Charging Minotaur(SD 1),Crusader's strike(DS 1),Leading the attack(WR 1)
Stone Bones(SD 1) and (open) with Martial Sprite(DS 1) stance
2:Iron guards glare(DS 1) stance
3:Sapphire Nightblade(DM 1),steel wind(IH 1),steely strike(IH 1) and moment of perfect(DM 1)
4:claw at the moon(TC 2)
5:sudden leap(TC 1)
6:Blood in the Water(TC 1) or leaping dragon stance (stance),steely strike(IH1)=>white raven tactics(WR 3)(trust me is ****ing crazy what this can do from free maneuver refrish to just about every thing else as it can be used on you(CustS said so))
7-15:? (not really looked)
Oh i and i almost for got that gives you a +1 to hit and damage if you get hit in a round and heavy armor proficiency to cover your ass if you want and range weapons proficiency. Which i drought.
Note:+2 power attack with a fullblade vs. monkey grip and a large fullblade,
monkey is better by an average damage of .5
1st (4)
[3]Steel Wind
[1] Charging Minotaur
[2]Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Moment of Perfect Mind
2nd (1)
Emerald Razor
[1]Claw at the Moon
3rd (1)
Bone Crusher
4th (1)
Lightening Recovery
[2]Ruby Nightmare Blade
[3]Mithril Tornado
5th (1)
Pouncing Charge
6th (1)
Rabid Bear Strike
[1]Iron Heart Endurance
7th (1)
Finishing Move
Stances (gained at specified level.. correct me if its impossible to delay learning a stance one level):
1st level (Punishing stance)
5th level (Leaping Dragon Stance)
10th Level (Absolute Steel)
Emerald Razor
[1]Claw at the Moon
You don't start replacing maneuvers until 4th level, so this one won't take place. It looks like you're taking too many maneuvers as well-- warblades get 3 to start, then one more at 2 and 3. After that, they only get a new maneuver known on odd levels and replace one of their known maneuvers on even levels.
It is impossible to delay learning a stance by 1 level as well, the only way to do what you did with the leaping dragon stance is to boost your initiator level somehow. (Whether through another class, a martial prestige class, or bloodlines.) Alternatively, you could also take the stance with Martial Stance as well.
You don't start replacing maneuvers until 4th level, so this one won't take place. It looks like you're taking too many maneuvers as well-- warblades get 3 to start, then one more at 2 and 3. After that, they only get a new maneuver known on odd levels and replace one of their known maneuvers on even levels.
er.. that part is listed by maneuver level, not character level. Here's what it looks like level by level... It seems harder to read this way.
Level 1 (3 Maneuvers, 1 Stance)
[3]Steel Wind
[1] Charging Minotaur
[2]Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Punishing Stance
Level 2 (1 Maneuver)
Moment of Perfect Mind
Level 3 (1 Maneuver)
Emerald Razor
Level 4 (1 Stance, Replace Maneuvers)
[1]Claw at the Moon
*******
Level 5 (1 Maneuver)
Bone Crusher
Level 7 (1 Maneuver)
Lightening Recovery
Level 8 (Replaced Maneuvers)
[2]Ruby Nightmare Blade
[3]Mithril Tornado
Level 9 (1 Maneuver)
Pouncing Charge
Level 10 (1 Stance, Replace Maneuvers)
Level 11 (1 Maneuver)
Rabid Bear Strike
Level 12 (Replace Maneuvers)
[1]Iron Heart Endurance
Level 13 (1 Maneuver)
Finishing Move
It is impossible to delay learning a stance by 1 level as well, the only way to do what you did with the leaping dragon stance is to boost your initiator level somehow. (Whether through another class, a martial prestige class, or bloodlines.) Alternatively, you could also take the stance with Martial Stance as well.
Putting the new stance at 4th level instead of 5th seems almost like a typo, as most of the good stances are 3rd level and above. Hell, Iron Heart Maneuvers available only to warblade even have 2 3rd level stances. It looks like I may have to multiclass. I'll decide that Later (probably Swordsage), because the Leaping Dragon Stance is pretty crucial to the build.
er.. that part is listed by maneuver level, not character level. Here's what it looks like level by level... It seems harder to read this way.
Ahh, that makes more sense. Sorry about that. I usually list mine in a more consolidated fashion with the class and level, then the actual initiator level next to it (I don't bother with the level of the maneuver usually since I can just halve the IL). The numbers by the school name are actually the number of maneuvers in that school, not level:
It's probably done partially to encourage multiclassing and partly as a limitation, since warblades have a very nice recovery maneuver and some of the best basic attributes in the game. (d12 HD, full BAB, 4 skill points per level)
Very true, although I think they designed the warblade using the barbarian as a comparison. Ironically, however, maneuvers are a significantly better option than rage (of course, that's my opinion.).
For the Leaping Dragon Stance, I would take a look at Leap of the Heavens in the PHBII-- while it isn't quite as nice as automatically getting an additional 10 foot added to your jump it also doesn't require you to use your stance to get most of the benefit. It's on all the time, regardless of what else you're trying to do. And if you do get a running start, you get 5 foot automatically from the skill bonus.
I have to pass. My feats are all tied up right now.
Anyway, I have some good news. The first session was last night. Here's a party make-up update. *also updated in OP*
Me (Warblade with a dash of crusader probably)
Human Fighter/ranger/thrower specialist (still picking Prestige Class)
Elven Healer
Elven Fighter (using a greatsword)
Human Swashbuckler/Dervish (My Girl, playing my character's 'best friend for life' because DM won't let us be married in this setting)
Elf Swashbuckler/Tempest
Elf Rogue (sister of tempest in game)
Elf bard (total bigot in game)
We are all brought together gradually by the DM. Basically, we have been fighting in a war with something called the federation. The federation hunts and kills all non-humans for fear of their magic. We are brought to the elven palace for reasons unknown to us, but we are requested to go on an expedition to an unknown land to search for a cache of lost magic (arcane magic is gone from the world, and the most powerful spellcaster is the last druid, named walker). We are waiting a few days in game as we are getting to know each other's characters and quirks.
The Elf Swashbuckler/Tempest (which I will refer to as the tempest from now on) challenges the Dervish to a friendly duel. He whiffs all of his attacks/abilities (which is hilarious) and the dervish wins without a scratch. He challenges her to a rematch, but the other players are bored and we rush the story so the DM can get everyone to the first encounter.
We meet the famous druid, Walker (which starts many Chuck Norris jokes at the table) and the king of the elves. They explain the expedition to us, and that the king's successor and first son, who incidentally had gone off on an expedition, was found eyeless and tongueless on the ocean shore, with a map case around his neck. The map within the case talks of a cache of ancient magic in a strange language nobody could decipher. We were brought here to go search for that magic. As we're traveling through the palace on the way to an airship, we are attacked by people disguised as guardians of a sacred tree. Thus begins first encounter.
Missing combatants: elf bard (had to leave early)
Round 1: As not everyone has realized that the guardians are fakes, I get to first. I rush forward toward a pair of the guards, executing Steel wind, and eviscerating one on the spot. The Dervish slashes at one, exposing him as a fraud to the rest of the party. Everyone is now involved in combat. I get hit for 2 damage by one of the guy's weapons (the enemies all went last). A couple of our teammates get hit, including the elven king.
Round 2: I recover my maneuvers, healing back to full, and attack the other guy, rolling super low and only doing 10 damage to him (he has 2 more HP I found out later). Other combatants manage to kill another 3 of the baddies, go team! Healer heals up king pretty well, but he looks sicker than before.
Round 3: I execute Sapphire Nightmare Blade and miss (fail concentration too), the fighter rushes up and misses, a couple other people miss, its getting funny. I think we downed one guy here. King goes down under attack again. The dervish goes down to -1 HP.
Round 4: I get mad, go punishing stance, and miss. Fighter misses. The elf twins finish off a guy using pair tactics (flanking and preparing actions). Healer brings the king back again.
Round 5: I score a hit, knocking the last guy for 25 (cutting him in half and spraying his guts all over the fighter). The elf twins group tactics take out the last enemy. Healer heals up the dervish.
Fight over: we lived!
After the fight the king is on his deathbed, both from the poison weapon and his old age. He makes some dying wishes which his second son promises to fulfill, involving the expedition and his laws. Some intrigue here is that the very same son at one point was very against the expedition.
After all that, we board the air ship and meet its crew, a group of mercenaries and a squad of experienced elven warriors. We are explained there is a period of exercise every morning and we help the crew with certain tasks (such as get this for that, etc). It seems good and well. This is where we stopped the session.
I was satisfied. Some of the other players were having a good time, but we pretty much all agreed we didn't like the bigot (well at least the guys didn't like him, he was good and nice to the ladies, though). More next session (and maybe some for the changes I may make to the final build).
When we start we're on our long voyage toward the new world. We bicker and time-hop for a few weeks of time, and are explained the demeanor and some of the ability of our shipmates, who we find via bardic knowledge and knowledge (local) checks to be mercenaries with a good luck streak. After about 30 minutes of the session getting to know our shipmates and our fellow PC's we arrive at the first island.
I neglected to mention in our first post that on the way to the final destination island there are a series of islands where we need to retrieve keys. The keys will allow us to access the cache when we reach the new land. That is why we are only a few weeks instead of nearly a year into our journey and we've already arrived at a destination.
The island is described to us as a small chunk of volcanic rock about 200 feet across with no vegetation and crevices in a criss-cross grid-like pattern across its entirety. The only part which is different is the small pile of rocks near its center. The pile of rock contains the key which we're looking for. The ship lowers us with 2 ladders and a basket (our choice) and most of the party goes down to the surface.
The druid, Walker, rummages through the pile of rocks and picks up a small, glowing black box from under the rocks. He gets a wild look in his eyes and shouts, "RUN." All around us, 4 foot long, 1 foot wide Eels start coming out of the crevices to attack us. Martial arts language commences!
Combatants:
Me
Male elf swashbuckler twin (sister couldn't make it)
A new monk PC
Walker the druid
Fighter
Thrower
Healer
2 hunter NPC's
Monsters take double-moves to get to us, and don't attack for some reason (DM pity?). I turn around, enter punishing stance, execute sapphire nightmare blade, crit and almost massive crit (critical threat/confirm 2x in a row), and deal 48 damage to the first one, pulpifying it. We take out a few more and eventually retreat back to the ladders and escape. I got hit by one lucky enemy and critted right back for 20 damage. I hit him for 23 (non-crit) after the hunters hit it, and the damn thing still didn't go down (high hp for a 2nd level encounter ah well). The DM seems ready to call it quits so he hastily informs us we're done for the night and gives everyone another level.
So, for my new level I was about to go crusader, but after reviewing the ToB multiclassing rules it seems that there would be no benefit to taking only one level of crusader, and it would delay my initiator level by 1 in the long run, I decided to just go 3rd level Warblade so I can grab the emerald razor maneuver and pretty much guarantee that I'll hit pretty much every attack I don't roll a 1 on. I'm really turned off by the multiclassing rules for martial characters. I figure it will still take me until 6th level (3 warblade +2 other class +1 warblade) to reach 3rd level maneuvers. This is stupid, since 3rd level stances are ONLY AVAILABLE 1 level late for warblades. I'll decide how it goes next level. Build won't change until then though.
NEW SESSION 9/3/09
So we just finished the first island, which was called Flay Creach. And we re-boarded the ship and continued on toward the next island, Stormguard (I could be wrong on the name). The DM decides to kill some time and make the little voyage more interesting, so he has us 'spar'. I end up fighting the elven brother of the dm's girlfriend's character (who is a lvl 3 swashbuckler at this point). Because I requested to duel with him, he names the fight's starting rules. Weapons not drawn, adjacent to opponent. I see nothing advertly wrong with this, except that it puts him at a distinct advantage (he has quickdraw and something called parry mode, which I'll explain.
The DM had decided a couple sessions ago (which I forgot to mention above) that he will be adding a skill "parry" to certain class lists (Warblade discluded). Basically, you can choose a partial or full parry mode, partial being one where you are only allowed a single melee attack, and full being no melee attacks. Each time someone attacks you while in parry mode, they not only have to beat your AC, but they are allowed a parry attempt. If the attempt exceeds your attack roll by 10 or more, they get a free 'parry attack' their attacker. The DM hasn't fully finished making the rules on these checks reguarding circumstances such as flat-footed or touch attacks, so he was making up the rules more 'on the fly' during our little duel.
The duel went like this, we had a 20'/20' space on the ship deck in which to fight. Elf beats my initiative by a lot, goes into full parry mode. I miss, he misses, he parrys, he misses, I hit for 16, he misses, I crit for 36, DM says he's down to -9 and stabilized, because this would have split him in half were this not sparring. For the record, he didn't leave parry mode for even 1 round during the fight. I found a couple of new tricks with warblade that I really like. Power attack+emerald razor truely kicks butt.
After our duels, we were given a few weeks of travel time to do whatever. I'm kind of wishing I had a craft skill or something, because of the excessive downtimes we've had. We finally reach the new area, which resembles South America's rainforests, being fully wooded, largely mountainous, and really huge. We circle the island once and it takes a couple days. Walker decides to take a Roc and another hunter to search closer. He travels for a day, comes back, informs us he has an idea where to look, and we organize a search group consisting of everyone who is at the session and a couple nameless hunters.
We are lowered into a tiny clearing in the jungle, about 100' from a cave mouth (which we cannot see from our entrypoint. The DM takes a significant time drawing in all of the trees in our area, showing there are only a few usable paths. the hunters go nuts, looking for our cave, until we find it eventually. the cave only goes in about 30', but it contains the key we're looking for. We decide on account of the attack on the last island that we'd secure a trail back by leaving people all along the path to the cave to fight off monsters so Walker could reach the ladders in time. Walker grasps the key, and all hell breaks loose.
First thing, the trail we walked was full of waist-high grass, which immediately came to life. Second thing, the trees themselves began thrashing like the whomping willow from Harry Potter or the trees from Narnia. Third thing, Shambling mounds seemed to drop from the trees like eggs from a birds nest during a hurricane. These shambling mounds were lesser versions, the DM didn't want us to die quite yet. I (would be) crit one for 29 (if that had been a crit 60ish damage) and took it out, we had to strength check of 10 just to make move actions. We ended up fighting our way back to the ladders, but we made it, but not without losing one of the nameless hunters. Overall it was an easy fight, but it could have been much much worse if the DM had followed the original battle plan or the stats for the things we were dealing with (str checks of 20 on the grasses, real shambling mounds, animated trees, yikes.).
At this point, the DM was pretty tired, So he called it a night. Overall a good session, we've been busy lately so our group hasn't been able to DnD for a while.