Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mervin_magnus Jul 28, 2009 21:45:00	I was rethinking my protective/anti-magic build I think I'm onto something, but I can't quite finish it Wizard 1/ Cleric 3/ True Necromancer 12/ Incantrix 3/ Archmage 1 *early entry to Nerc with Precocious Aprentice The plan is to use Divine immediate counterspell (feat in FC II) combine that with the Archmage ability to reflect spells that he counterspells I'll use arcane mastery (applies to divine as well) with domain ability to get good dispel checks. Then I use persist cheese using incantrix. To me, according to the RAW of the divine counterspell feat, I can use turn attempts to to counterspell using my arcane slots. "to counter the spell if he had prepared a hold person or dispel magic spell" (pg. 83) Potential? Comments?
#2 thebigstupidfighter Jul 28, 2009 22:21:58	Precocious Appentice has been clearly errata'd and, under the errata'd rules, does not allow early entry into prestige classes. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but someone else would point this out eventually anyway. I'm not familier with True Necromancer, so aside from offering a totally different build I can't say much.
#3 mervin_magnus Jul 28, 2009 22:31:09	true necromancer is basically a mystic theurge. It is found in Libris Mortis. And I welcome completely different builds! The idea is to use the divine feat to get immediate counterspells get more counterspells with wizard reflect spells with archmage ability and still get persist cheese (I prefer incantrix, but divine metamagic works too)
#4 dm_denubis Jul 28, 2009 23:09:23	True Necromancer is awful, in every situation, no matter what. A straight cleric is a better necromancer, and anything is a better caster. Please don't use true Necromancer.
#5 thebigstupidfighter Jul 28, 2009 23:11:31	DMM offers lots of fun tricks, and that's not a bad one, but don't forget that non-casters are threats too. Anyone with a spiked chain and Mageslayer will own you if you let them. The two widely accepted "best" fighter builds, one always uses these, and the other can take them without disrupting the build. What about Human Paragon 1, Wizard 1, Human Paragon 2-3, Crusader 1, Ur-Priest 2, True Necromancer 8, whateverfloatsyourboat 5 Assuming True Necromancer is full casting, you have 9th level divine spells at level 15, as well as 11th level wizard casting and because of the ur-priest and crusader levels you’re pretty tough, and maneuvers never hurt. Prestige Class qualification is laughably easy due to adaptive learning from Human Paragon. After level 15 you can focus on wizard casting and take Incantrix, Archmage, and, if you don’t want more levels of those, maybe Abjurant Champion as your capstone. Again I have no knowledge of True Necro other than what you told me.
#6 mervin_magnus Jul 28, 2009 23:12:29	Precocious Appentice has been clearly errata'd and, under the errata'd rules, does not allow early entry into prestige classes. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but someone else would point this out eventually anyway. I would like to see this errata
#7 mervin_magnus Jul 28, 2009 23:15:04	Again I have no knowledge of True Necro other than what you told me. Ill copy and paste from libris mortis: Table 3–7: The True Necromancer Base Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Spells per Day 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Rebuke undead +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Create undead 1/day +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Necromantic prowess (+1) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Zone of desecration +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Create undead 2/day +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Necromantic prowess (+2) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class 7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Major desecration +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Create greater undead 1/day +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Necromantic prowess (+3) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Horrid wilting +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 11th +5 +3 +3 +7 Create greater undead 2/day +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 12th +6 +4 +4 +8 Necromantic prowess (+4) +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 13th +6 +4 +4 +8 Energy drain +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class 14th +7 +4 +4 +9 Wail of the banshee +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
#8 mervin_magnus Jul 28, 2009 23:15:43	True Necromancer is awful, in every situation, no matter what. A straight cleric is a better necromancer, and anything is a better caster. Please don't use true Necromancer. then offer me a better idea, mystic thergue? What about Human Paragon 1, Wizard 1, Human Paragon 2-3, Crusader 1, Ur-Priest 2, Mystic Thergue 8, whateverfloatsyourboat 5 for your idea i need to use mystic thergue. why crusader? what it doing there? my last 5 levels would be what you said (but I might replace abjurant champion with exalted prestige class if i find a good one) And I'm just makeing sure... "to counter the spell if he had prepared a hold person or dispel magic spell" (pg. 83) quoted from fiendish codex II. According to RAW can I cast arcane dispel magic using this divine feat?
#9 thebigstupidfighter Jul 28, 2009 23:26:46	I don't remember what book Precocious Apprentice is from, but it will be in the errata for that book. After seeing True Necro I agree I would also use Mystic Theurge. As for Crusader, You need a better fort save to qualify for Ur-Priest but anything with a high fort would do, I just like the class as a 1 level dip but feel free to take fighter for a feat or whatever.
#10 jaronk Jul 29, 2009 0:05:32	The thing with PA is that it says when you get 2nd level spells, you just get a new spell slot instead of the old effects of the feat. So at Wizard 1 with the feat, you can cast a level 2 Wizard spell... but as soon as you hit Wizard 1/Cleric 3, suddenly the feat is only giving you one extra level 2 spell slot for the class you can now cast second level spells with... the Cleric. So no dice. It does work for classes like the Anima Mage though. JaronK
#11 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 10:21:24	I personally like warblades over crusaders... I'll probably take that Ok, here's a modified build, without using precocious apprentice (since I cant use it) Human Paragon 1/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 2/ Mindbender 1/ UR- Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Incantrix 3/ Archmage 1/ XXX 1 *guess I wasn't lazy =P I was silly @.@ now the build is good.
#12 thebigstupidfighter Jul 29, 2009 11:51:07	warblades are fine, and fit the prereq just as well. But, really, you should go with one level of wizard and then take two more human paragon levels, same saves but better skills, abilities, BAB, and hit die. And same amount of spellcasting too. What's with the ninth level of mystic theurge? You need 7 to get ninth level divine spells, 8 to finish Ur-Priest casting, but after that there is no reason to take another level of it, you coulkd take a prestige class with abilities that actually benefits you.(or, honestly, you could take a level of swordsage or another warblade level if you have no other ideas.)
#13 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 12:42:41	What about feats? extra turning practiced spellcaster invest spell (for imbued staff familiar variant) (this let my me cast GDM 3/day) Divine Counterspelling feat any more ideas?
#14 Endarire Jul 29, 2009 15:24:08	Mindbender gives you +2 base Fort and progresses your arcane casting. Its skill reqs hurt though.
#15 dr_rocktopus Jul 29, 2009 15:43:30	Precocious apprentice was never errata'd. Just because you want something to go away doesn't mean it has. JaronK has grasped the reason that it sometimes fails to work under some rules interpretations, but others permit it. I allow it in the ToS, and it is generally accepted on these boards. Classically, however, it is considered viable to just abuse the hell out of precocious apprentice + versatile spellcaster and sneak into MT at cleric 1/wizard 1 by picking a spell with precocious apprentice that is on both lists. Alternatively here is the full text of PA: Precocious Apprentice Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training. Prerequisites: Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15, arcane caster level 1st. Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks. Special: You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character
#16 thebigstupidfighter Jul 29, 2009 15:44:59	personally I don't think I'd do it, but a level of mindbender is feasible, with human paragon awesomeness. Don't forget your bonus feat at level 2 of Human Paragon. Alacritous Cogitation is one of the single greatest wizard feats in the history of ever. E-mail the wizards staff if you don't believe me, Precocious Apprentice does in fact not let you get early entry cheese.
#17 dr_rocktopus Jul 29, 2009 15:53:15	If they'd answer my questions, I'd be delighted to put this to customer service. We've done it before, and I'm going to be blunt, it ended with affirmatives for both sides depending on how the question was phrased. WotC CustServ is...... rough at best. So what are your feelings on versatile spellcaster? Or earth_spell->dragonsblood pool?
#18 thebigstupidfighter Jul 29, 2009 15:59:27	I've always found then to be very helpful, but whatever... Anyway if you want to use precocious Apprentice that way, it will really depend on what your GM says. If you get a go then by all means take the feat.
#19 dr_rocktopus Jul 29, 2009 16:05:04	Here is the FAQ reading on it, bear in mind that the FAQ is authoritative but not comprehensive or RAW. Specifically, rulings from the Sage are not RAW. If a 1st-level character takes the Precocious Apprentice feat, can he cast 2nd-level spells for the purposes of qualifying for a prestige class or meeting the prerequisites of a feat? [INDENT]In the Sage’s opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells.[/INDENT] Unfortunately, this is easily obviated because it does provide you with a second level slot, versatile spell caster allows you to strip the requirements from that slot by breaking it down into one second level slot, or combining it upward into one third level slot. Obviously, the problem doesn't go away because of his pseudo-ruling. It just moves it around. Worse, runestaves over-ride the wording of the binding clauses, so it's.... You begin to see that the problem is pretty deep, neh? It's a GM-adjudication issue.
#20 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 16:05:58	mindbender suggestion is smart too lazy to edit: just pretend you see the word "mindbender" instead of "warblade" Now... Are there any feats that are a MUST or SHOULD take for this build? (remember this buffing anti-caster build) There is also a leftover level, if you guys can come up with a good dip...
#21 tshern Jul 29, 2009 16:07:19	I've always found then to be very helpful, but whatever... Anyway if you want to use precocious Apprentice that way, it will really depend on what your GM says. If you get a go then by all means take the feat. Helpful as in 'Ask your GM'. They certainly aren't rude, but they sure are inconsistent. The fact is Precocious apprentice never received an erratum and that's that.
#22 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 16:17:11	I'm mad that like for the thrid time that Precocious Aprentice was used on my builds: I have to suffer through these rants... FROM NOW ON, ILL NEVER USE PRECOCIOUS APPRENTICE AGAIN! (or just simply lie about it) "How did you get into that prc so early?" "uh... my DM said so?"
#23 dr_rocktopus Jul 29, 2009 16:40:54	You've just gotten unlucky. I use PreAp all the time, and hardly anyone comments on it. On the other hand, I have something of a reputation for build a certain kind of character.
#24 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 17:29:45	now that we've ended the precocious apprentice rant: any other feats I should know about for this build? practiced spellcaster Divine counterspelling feat invest spell (let's me cast GDM 3/day, from dragon magazine) extra turning Human Paragon 1/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 2/ Mindbender 1/ UR- Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Incantrix 3/ Archmage 1/ XXX 1
#25 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 18:13:05	I just came up with an idea: it is based of the build "Mamori" in my sig The idea was just to squeez in 3 levels of divine class so that I can qualify for divine counterspell Focused Abjurer 2/ Master Specialist* 4/ Ur-Preist** 3/ Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 7/ Incantrix 3/ Archmage 1 *uh... my DM said so (read above to understand) **if I have the available feats, if not this would be cleric what do you guys think? better? worse? is the build mentioned before better? Yea I know he doesn't get alot of divine spells as the other build, but this build has the immediate innitiate buffs (which I persuaded my DM to be persistable via incantrix) I still welcome any input, would that be: a new build (though it does have strong competition) or suggestions for either builds
#26 mervin_magnus Jul 29, 2009 21:45:40	Are you guys speechless? I have two things left to ask: 1) Which build do you guys think is more optimized for counterspelling/defesiveness? (If you pick 2nd one you have to say what to do with last level***) Focused Abjurer 2/ Master Specialist* 4/ Ur-Preist** 3/ Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 7/ Incantrix 3/ Archmage 1 Human Paragon 1/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 2/ Mindbender 1/ UR- Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Incantrix 3/ Archmage 1/ XXX 1 2) ANYMORE MORE FEAT SUGGESTIONS? Extra Turning Divine Counterspelling Feat Invest Spell (from dragon magazine) (I sacrifice 6th lvl spell slot to cast GDM 3/day) practiced spellcaster ***this can be class, template, etc.
#27 aethernox Jul 29, 2009 22:14:18	Are you sure you want to be a focused abjurer? Focused Specialists work well in some instances (read: conjuration, to a lesser extent illusion/transmutation), but... abjuration? I'd just specialize, and forgo the focused ACF.
#28 jaronk Jul 29, 2009 23:13:24	If you want to get early entry without worrying about PA, another option is Earth Sense/Earth Spell/Heighten Spell. More feats obviously, but it's also a lot more solid in the rules. Then again, that's usually better for SCMs, who want those feats anyway. JaronK
#29 dr_rocktopus Jul 30, 2009 0:04:52	My usual route is similar, Jaron.
#30 mervin_magnus Jul 30, 2009 10:08:08	I have a question, what about the multiclass penalty rules. The second build scares me on this account, and to a lesser extent the first build.
#31 damned_slayer Jul 30, 2009 10:37:43	I have a question, what about the multiclass penalty rules. The second build scares me on this account, and to a lesser extent the first build. why you only have 1 base class in each PrC doesn't count in that (I don't think paragon counts as base class does it?) anyway it wouldn't matter
#32 mervin_magnus Jul 30, 2009 12:54:38	I have two things left to ask: 1) Which build do you guys think is more optimized for counterspelling/defesiveness? (If you pick 2nd one you have to say what to do with last level***) Focused Abjurer 2/ Master Specialist* 4/ Ur-Preist** 3/ Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 7/ Incantrix 3/ Archmage 1 Human Paragon 1/ Wizard 1/ Human Paragon 2/ Mindbender 1/ UR- Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Incantrix 3/ Archmage 1/ XXX 1 2) ANYMORE MORE FEAT SUGGESTIONS? Extra Turning Divine Counterspelling Feat Invest Spell (from dragon magazine) (I sacrifice 6th lvl spell slot to cast GDM 3/day) practiced spellcaster What I said earlier (thx for the multiclass answer)