Can a cleric replace the party wizard???
Or can a cleric focus on just casting and not on melee combat???
Clerics have some advantages over wizards. Namedly, Turn Undead combined with Divine Metamagic and Divine Spell Power. DSP is really great for clerics, because with a slight bit of optimization, you can pretty much auto trigger the +2-4 caster levels on all spells. DMM allows you to apply Metamagic to a high level spell, something a wizard can't do without a MM Rod or some other shananananananagins. Clerics can also make just as good of counterspellers as wizards can, especially if they take the Inqusition domain (Complete Divine) and Divine Defiance (Fiendish Codex II), which, along with Battlemagic Perception and a couple of Greater Dispel Magics standing by, will allow the cleric immediate speed counterspelling when he needs it most. It takes a bit of work, but a well rounded cleric can be just as influential on a battle as a well made wizard, and I'm not just talking about smackin someone up with a big club.
If I had to play solo, I would be an arcane caster, and if I was 2-manning I would throw in a divine caster. 3 man group would be 2 arcane casters, 1 more BSF oriented and 1 more skill monkey oriented. 4 man group would add another divine caster, to have both a cleric and a druid.
In short: Casters rock, and while arcane and divine do overlap a fair bit and can cover for each other... you really want EVERYONE to be a caster.
Why pick when you can be a Mystic Theurge? :D
Being 3 casting levels behind, not to mention nifty class features? No thx.
And 3 caster levels isn't all that substantial. At least in exchange or the versatility you get.
If, by nifty class features, you mean absolutely nothing on the cleric side and only a couple metamagic feats on the wizard side? I think we'll manage.
And 3 caster levels isn't all that substantial. At least in exchange or the versatility you get.
Not without early entry shenanigans! You're 2 full spell levels behind in both sides. It blows!
If, by nifty class features, you mean absolutely nothing on the cleric side and only a couple metamagic feats on the wizard side? I think we'll manage.
And 3 caster levels isn't all that substantial. At least in exchange or the versatility you get.
By nifty class features I mean things like Incantatrix3 that you are missing out on by taking silly mystic theurge instead. They blow MT out of the water.
As for early entry, I disallow it and so do most DMs I know. Just like I won't let you meet a BAB requirement by casting Divine Power, you're not getting into a PRC based on your feat based shenanigans.
But even WITH early entry shenanigans, pure casters are still better. Your spells are still below par, and you still don't have class features.
As for early entry, I disallow it and so do most DMs I know.
However, most DMs I know would allow it if its through a legal method (ie, not Precocious Apprentice, but rather through Heighten Spell methodology). So, totally depends on your game.
So arcane could be considered to most powerful seeing that you are using your domains to get spells from the arcane spell list???
THAT is a tricky question. It totally depends on what level you are talking about, the amount of cheese allowed in the game, other factors specific to the campaign, and how good the player is at optimizing the character.
In a very, very general sense, I'd rate Divine Casters as stronger until around L10, equal from L10 to L15, then I'd rate arcane very slightly stronger just above that (but if you are questioning the power difference afterwards, it levels off, and becomes equal in the epic region).
In terms of pure spellcasting, on the divine side the Archivist (while introducing even greater variability) potentially overshadows the wizard, I think... if Divine Bard, Shugenja, Divine Magician, special domain, Druid, and the various more exotic divine lists such as Nentyar Hunter are easily available.
In that case a large chunk of the arcane list would be available to a divine caster, who would then proceed to cast said spells in medium armor, with better skills and BA. Such a character would get all of the example spells above, Grease, Entangle, Haste, Polymorph, Solid Fog... and grow into Time Stop, Shapechange, all the usual high level silliness.
What Lormador said is still correct though. Wizards especially rely on things like Scrolls and other wizards to learn the amount of spells that make them broken.
Taking a CharOp, everything is available, makes Archivist powerful. If you have access to... Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, the less exotic, more basic spell lists, makes archivist not nearly as powerful.
Also, how many DMs actually make divine scrolls?
Also, how many DMs actually make divine scrolls?
I do.
I have been DM or played in campaigns where the PCs had no healers but bought scrolls instead as well as scrolls of the raise dead line of effects.
If you want to be a divine caster who fills the role of a wizard - an Archivist can do quite nicely (biggest spell list in the game).
Or, alternatively, you could be a healing wizard and take the role of the Cleric...
However, most DMs I know would allow it if its through a legal method (ie, not Precocious Apprentice, but rather through Heighten Spell methodology). So, totally depends on your game.
Completely off topic, and I may need to start a whole thread about this (if it starts some sort of debate), but how is Precocious Apprentice not legal? I know the FAQ/Sage said no, but their reasoning seemed, to me, less than sound, and the FAQ is always been to me about RAI/Game balance and not RAW/Legality. Is there something I am missing that somehow makes it less legal than the various heighten shenanigans? Both grant the ability to cast X-level spells, at least as far as how I read 'can cast X-level spells'.
Both are allowed in my groups (as well as southern magician) for early entry, because we mostly play in low-mid levels anyway and that's when dual casters usually really really really suck, so it doesn't hurt anything, but I've seen this sort of argument before and am confused by what I missed.
The problem with Precocious Apprentice is that when you gain the ability to cast "true" 2nd-level spells in one class, the benefit effectively disappears for the other class. "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would."
Right, so you lose the prereqs required to enter MT, and thus the benefits of MT.
The problem with Precocious Apprentice is that when you gain the ability to cast "true" 2nd-level spells in one class, the benefit effectively disappears for the other class. "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would."
It's even worse than that, if you are trying to argue that PA satisfies "ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells" for a PRC, then it also satisfies the "true" spellcasting clause all on its own. This causes you to immediately lose the ability to cast the spell, just as if though you were a cleric3/wizard1 or similar.
You'll have a hard time arguing with me that PA can qualify for 2nd level spells for PRCs, but not for its own caveat, as they are the exact same thing ^^.
Also, how many DMs actually make divine scrolls?
ooh! ooh! ooh! me me me me me! i do
As for the actual topic, Divine vs. Arcane, Divine casters are somewhat passive in a way. When i play clerics,(usually with a terrible initiative) i don't mind going last, readying, an action, or lowering my initiative. Their sort of spell selection kind of falls along the line of "wait-and-see" spells. (or dramatic buffs)
Arcane spells are more on the active half, doing something dramatic on the battlefield, single target, or multiple targets. Usually this will get everyone's attention and drive them to do something about it.
Right, so you lose the prereqs required to enter MT, and thus the benefits of MT.
So it's the page 16 rule that everyone uses to justify it's illegality. That would explain the difference of opinion, as we don't play with that rule (we don't let people use items or spells to qualify for stuff either). If you qualified for the PRC when you took it, you qualified, unless you do something that specifically disqualifies you (alignment change, loss of spellcasting ability destroying an artifact, etc), you won't lose the advantages of that PrC.
And 3 caster levels isn't all that substantial.
Yes, it is. It's like "bringing a knife to a gunfight" substantial.
And back on topic... the cleric can replace the party wizard, if he has enough non-core options. A cleric/shadowcraft mage can get all the wizard evocation spells, and most of the conjuration ones. Add on some good domains + spontaneous domain casting, and you can basically be the party wizard. Without shenanigans like this, it is more difficult.
EDIT: cept for actualy front line fighting. a wizard can't do that directly, he has to do it vicariously through summons.
EDIT: cept for actualy front line fighting. a wizard can't do that directly, he has to do it vicariously through summons.
Polymorph->hydra + Wraithstrike + Heroics->Power Attack disagrees with you. Tack on things like (Greater) Mirror Image, Displacement, and Abrupt Jaunt and you'll be harder to kill than most other "frontline" combatants, also.
That said:
Abrupt Jaunt
Heart of Fire
Heart of Water
Heart of Air
Heart of Earth
Elemental Body
Greater Mirror Image
Karmic retribution
Defense and mobility first...defense and mobility first.
I should start checking spells before i post. Especially ones that are relevant to the post in question. Can we do better than a Limited Wish to increase our to hit?
Arcane Disciple-Competition grants us...
Divine Power BAB 20
Righteous Might +8 size bonus to str (+4 to hit)
Greater Visage of the deity +4 racial bonus to str (+2 to hit)
Combine with Bite of Werebear (+8), shapechange (whatever base strength to start), and wraithstrike (touch attacks), all of which are persistable, and if you're really wanting to play a gish, you should never have a problem hitting anything.
Whoever the fighter and rogue catch on to first is declared the less versatile caster!
Well, the full plate kind of gives it away.
except at high levels... the Cleric will probably have a Monks Belt and Bracers of Armor ... same as Wizard
How does the magic of a mage compare to that of a cleric???
very similarly as has been pointed out already..... but Divine Casters tend to have More Hp, cast in Armor at low levels, better Attack bonus unbuffed, better Saves
Can a cleric replace the party wizard???
for some things as has been noted.... but they need to be designed to do that specifically
Or can a cleric focus on just casting and not on melee combat???
yes... the advantage of Melee Combat .... they can take out Enemies without using too many resources(Spells)
Cleric Archers try to stay completely out of Melee Combat ..... Summoner Clerics dont need to get into Combat... whatever they Summon takes care of thier problems .... Blaster/Battlefield Control Clerics are very similar to Wizards in regard to Melee combat(but they are more capable of it than Wizards)
:D
Arcane Disciple-Competition grants us...
Divine Power BAB 20
Righteous Might +8 size bonus to str (+4 to hit)
Greater Visage of the deity +4 racial bonus to str (+2 to hit)
Too bad that's only usable once per day
Too bad that's only usable once per day
Too bad you missed the part where I mentioned that they're all persist-able.
Ignoring persist shenanigans, do you guys think that versatile spellcaster can get around the 1/day limit of arcane disciple?
no... the feat itself states:
Arcane Disciple
Type: General
Source: Complete Divine
Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics of that deity. You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain as arcane spells.
Prerequisite: Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, able to cast arcane spells, alignment matches your deity's alignment.
Benefit: Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision cannot be changed for that feat.
You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell's level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat.
Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time, you must select a different domain available to the same deity you chose the first time you selected the feat. For example, a character who chose Heironeous and the Good domain with his first selection could choose Law or War with successive selections of the same feat. He couldn't choose Protection, since that domain isn't available to clerics of Heironeous.
the feat limits its usage
:D
A Pearl of Power might work, depending on the DM, but I could even see some disallowing even that, due to the wording on the restriction. I think that would work since it says "as if it were never cast", though.
And fireball states that its maximum is 10d6. What do we do with energy admixture?
the Feat Superceds the Spell... since it is modifying the spell in a way that produces more energy output than normal.... a Normal Fireball can only do up to 10d6 damage... a Metamagic Fireball is not Normal... it is enhanced with a metamagic Feat to produce different results, in the case of Energy Admixture... it doubles the output
:D
the Feat Superceds the Spell... since it is modifying the spell in a way that produces more energy output than normal.... a Normal Fireball can only do up to 10d6 damage... a Metamagic Fireball is not Normal... it is enhanced with a metamagic Feat to produce different results, in the case of Energy Admixture... it doubles the output
:D
Fireball is actually specifically mentioned in the feat description:
Benefit: Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire) that matches an energy type you have selected for substitution via the Energy Substitution feat. You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor by adding an equal amount of the chosen type of energy to the spell's normal effects. The altered spell works normally in all respects except for the type and amount of damage dealt, with each type of energy counting separately toward the spell's damage cap. Thus, an acid fireball cast at 6th level deals 6d6 points of fire damage and 6d6 points of acid damage (rolled separately), while the same acid fireball cast at 10th level or higher deals 10d6 points of fire damage and 10d6 points of acid damage. Even opposed types of energy (such as fire and cold) can be combined using this feat.
An energy admixed spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. As well, the spell's descriptor changes to include both energy types present in the spell-for example, the acid fireball described above is an evocation spell.
If you think it would, please tell us why. The burden of proof is on you, because otherwise it is prohibited.
Now, now, I didn't know how it worked, as its a weird interaction :D.
Looks like Shadow Spell shenanigans are the only way to use it... hrm...
EDIT: What if Heighten were used with the domain spell? Any thoughts there?
Fortitude of the Troll(name may be wrong): Grants Regeneration 3(not much if you're already taking Hydra or other forms with Regeneration)
Heart of Stone: Gave you nigh-infinite-(-1) DR, such that you took 1 damage from any pitchfork-wielding mobs, etc. Downside was your real heart could be destroyed(killing you), you took the minimum of healing(similar to Green Star), and it was vulnerable to a couple of counterspells(instantly sending your heart back into you).
Iron Body: Essentially turned you into an Iron Golem, but a little better.