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| #1polygamistMay 30, 2010 15:05:50 | I thought I would post here to get some ideas on how to build the following opponents for the party, down the road, in a current dungeon crawl. The module is a 2E (please don't chime in with the name, if you know it) and I have upgraded most of the opponents to 3.5. However, the big bosses are a real pain to put together. Also, after 3 months of doing this myself, I'm a little burned out. The party has 2-4 BSF's (depending on who shows up), an NPC cleric (with trapfinding), an enchanter and warlock. I would like to provide a challenge for the party, but would prefer some controllability (i.e., I don't like high crit weapons for big nasties, makes the encounter harder to "control"). Remember, the GM is ultimately supposed to lose. So, here are the BBEG's that could be faced by the party in various bottom levels. If you could provide some strategy, that would really help (spells, tactics, etc.). Assume all underground with passages between 10' wide and some larger rooms up to 50' in size (except as noted in specific areas). 9 Ogre Mages who worship Nerull (should have some connection, cleric, knowledge religion, other ideas) and ride within Huge/Gargantuan Troll Skeletons. Cavern is about 250' across with pyramid at the center. 32 point buy CR15 with levels/templates Shock Troops are Ogres Archers and Foot soldiers (CR8 max), Salamanders (fire), and Troll Skeletons. Use 25 PB for these opponents. 5 wizards (race open) (1 should be neutral, rest are evil, fiendish templates or similar would be great flavor) 32 point buy CR18 with levels/templates Humanoid Druid 32 point buy CR15 Red Dragon (large lair) 32 point buy CR20 (use Draconomicon if you like here), can polymorph into a small bird to access outside through small opening. 1 Illusionist 32 point buy CR17 8 Umber Hulks 32 PB CR12 each 1 Fire Giant Mummy 25 PB CR17 (module says that because it is fire giant, is immune to fire) 2 Liches (1 is former human), on seperate levels. One should be a "bookworm" and disinterested in the party unless attacked. 32 PB CR20 2 Spectres and 1 Ghost 25 PB CR13 1 Troll Druid (only retains spellcasting ability, no wildshape) 32 PB CR22 2 Mind Flayers 32 PB CR15 2 Divine Casters (Cleric/FS/etc.), they work together. 32 PB CR16 Worship Nerull, Vaprak, or Tharizdun Please limit the books to core, completes, races, BoVD, selected FRCS materials and other books (try to limit this). Use standard NPC money rules. Please no DMM (Persistent). No DL or Eberrron. No Book of 9 Swords (personal preference and players are in agreement). Again, thanks in advance. I try hard to provide a fun experience for my group and hope this can help. This board is a real help in providing challenges for my players. |
| #2polygamistMay 30, 2010 19:28:07 | Okay, let me start the conversation off with an easy build. The CR8 Ogre foot soldiers use the glaive as a reach weapon to trip foes and then can throw 2 spears as a full attack (Quick Draw). Granted the Will Save is low, but that's OK. The enchanter will need some low hanging fruit. Anyway, here it is. Let me know if I am using the correct formatting for monsters (used Heroforge). WB00 Ogre Foot Soldiers: Male Ogre Bbn2/Ftr4; CR 9 (I consider this CR8 since I did not include the monster hit dice); BTW, Ogre is raging, which explains AC and STR adjustments and used 4 points of Power Attack as a default. Please offer constructive criticism to help me improve these monsters. I fear the party members are getting used to my typical construction of monsters and so therefore, I'd like to change things up a bit. |
| #3Maat_MonsMay 30, 2010 22:51:52 | For the mind flayers, I suggest the variant from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You trade the psi-like abilities for manifesting as a 9th level psion (telepath). You could fill them out with 7 levels of slayer. If they don't need to be mind flayers per se, you could use ulitharids (Lords of Madness). Those are essentially scaled-up CR 12 mind flayers. It was surprisingly difficult to find out that BSF stands for big stupid fighter. Knowing that, I'd just go with 24 HD for the umber hulk. Aberrations get +4 CR for +16 HD and the boost to huge size is another +1 CR. The physical resilience from +16 HD is good against the fighters and the +8 to will saves is good against the enchanter. I'd add on Robilar's gambit (PHBII), combat reflexes, improved combat reflexes, and improved trip. |
| #4polygamistMay 30, 2010 23:34:22 | Well, 2 BSF's, duskblade and paladin. Sorry, Treantmonk's Wizard Guide really made an impression on me. XPH and LoM, I don't have them. Also, since the players and I generally have hated psionics since 2E, I'd rather not piss them off by using it. But thanks for the idea. Like the idea of the Umber Hulks. Huge is out due to lack of space for that size and I'm guessing the improved combat reflexes is to fuel Robilar's Gambit. |
| #5phaedrusxyMay 30, 2010 23:37:58 | Travel devotion with a cleric level should make for a nasty umber hulk. It can pop out of the ground, hit a group with its Confusion gaze, and then pop back into the ground and let them murderize each other. |
| #6polygamistMay 30, 2010 23:48:59 | Would it be possible to just take the feat multiple times instead? I'm putting the monster together in Monster Forge and the stats don't support much cleric use. I can see 3 open feat slots right now. Current Feats: Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Improved Toughness, Multiattack, Robilar's Gambit, Travel Devotion, 3 open feats.
EDIT: After thinking about it more, I like the idea of the Umber Hulks worshipping a god. Is there an umber hulk deity? Or should they worship a standard Oerth deity? I know its flavor, just trying to make the flavor fit the build. |
| #7polygamistMay 31, 2010 0:31:49 | Okay, I made several of the Ogre Mages: Please comment. Male Ogre Mage Clr7/Gnt5; CR 15; Male Ogre Mage Hxb4/SuA1/AbJ2/Gnt5; CR 15; –– RACE ABILITIES –– • +10 Strength, +6 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma • Base land speed of 40 feet. • Space/Reach: 10'/10' • +5 Natural Armor bonus. • Darkvision 90 feet. • Low-Light Vision • Regeneration(Ex): 5 • Spell-like abilities: At will - darkness, invisibility 1/day - charm person(DC 20), cone of cold (DC 24), gaseous form, sleep(DC 20). • Spell Resistance 26 • Flight(Su): You have a Fly speed of 40 feet(good). You can cease or resume flight as a free action. While in gaseous form you can fly at your normal fly speed with perfect maneuverability. • Change Shape (Su): An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant. • Favored Class: Sorcerer –– CLASS ABILITIES –– • Proficient in light armor, and all shields(except tower shields) • Proficient with all simple and martial weapons. • Hexblade's Curse(Su): 1 time(s) per day, as a free action, you can unleash a curse upon a foe within 60 feet that you can see. The target of your curse takes a -2 penalty attacks, save, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for 1 hour thereafter. A successful Will save (DC 21) negates the effect. • Arcane Resistance(Su): You gain a bonus of +9 on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. • Mettle(Su): If you make a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell's effect, you suffer no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability. • Spell Ability: Your spells are affected by arcane spell failure. • Ignore Spell Failure Chance(Ex): When casting a Suel Arcanamach spell, your arcane spell failure is reduced by 5%. • Tenacious Spells(Ex): Add 6 to the DC required to dispel your arcanamach spells. • Abjurant Armor (Su): Any time you cast an abjuration spell that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC, you can add your abjurant champion level to the bonus. • Extended Abjuration (Su): The duration of your abjuration spells are doubled. • Swift Abjuration (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, you can cast abjuration spells as a swift action. • Dark Companion: Gain an illusory panther as companion that hinders adjacent ennemy defenses, giving them -2 to AC and Saves. –– FEATS –– • Combat Casting (PH 92) : +4 bonus on Concentration checks for defensive casting. • Combat Reflexes (PH 92) : Additional attacks of opportunity. • Improved Critical (PH 95) (Longbow, Composite) : Double threat range of weapon. • Iron Will (PH 97) : +2 bonus on Will saves. • Improved Toughness (MM4 203) : Gain hp equal to your current HD. Comments? |
| #8Maat_MonsMay 31, 2010 1:32:24 | If you don't want the umber hulks to be huge, you can use the dungeonbred template (Dungeonscape). It knocks a creature's size down by one step, gives bonuses to compensate, and does not change CR. Alternately, you can say these are unusual umber hulks that did not become huge upon reaching 13 HD. In that case, they would be only CR 11 at 24 HD and would not have the normal benefits of the size increase. If you like, you could give them 28 HD to make them CR 12. Again, this would require them to be special umber hulks. Bear in mind, you are allowed to change the feats a monster has. Steadfast determination (PHBII) lets you use con instead of wis for will saves. Improved rapidstrike (Draconomicon) gives you 4 extra attacks. |
| #9polygamistMay 31, 2010 11:11:33 | Good ideas on the Improved Rapidstike and template. I incorporated the Cleric level into the Umber Hulk and gave it extra turning to power the feat. I decided against Steadfast Determination, since I wanted the Enchanter to have some chance of success (it succeeds against a Will Save DC of 17 on a roll of 2) Here is the Fire Giant Mummy. Fire Giant Mummy: Male Giant(Fire) Und20; CR 15; Large Undead (augmented giant, fire); HD 20d8; hp 245; Init +1; Spd 40 ft/x4; AC 28 (+1 dex, -1 size, +18 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 27; Base Atk/Grapple +15/+36; Full Atk +22/+22 Secondary Natural (2d6+17;19-20/x2, Slam); SA&SQ ; SR 0; AL NE; SV Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +10; Str 44(+17), Dex 12(+1), Con —(+0), Int 6(-2), Wis 19(+4), Cha 18(+4); Skills: Intimidate¹ +27, Spot¹ +22. • ½ damage from fire –– TEMPLATE ABILITIES –– And another Ogre Mage ogre mage duskblade: Male Ogre Mage DuB7/Gnt5; CR 15; Large Giant; HD 12d8+84; hp 147; Init +2; Spd 30 ft/x4;Fly 40 ft.(Good); AC 30 (+12 armor, +2 dex, -1 size, +5 natural, +2 deflection), touch 13, flat-footed 28; Base Atk/Grapple +10/+24; Full Atk +21/+16 Two-handed (3d6+17;19-20/x2, +2 Cold Iron greatsword), +12/+7 Two-handed (2d6+1;20/x3, +1 Composite Longbow); SA&SQ Arcane Attunement (Sp), Armored Mage (Light) (Ex), Arcane Channeling (Su), Armored Mage (Medium) (Ex), Quick Casting, Spell Power (Ex), Armored Mage (Heavy Shield) (Ex); SR 26; AL NE; SV Fort +19, Ref +8, Will +11; Str 30(+10), Dex 14(+2), Con 24(+7), Int 22(+6), Wis 14(+2), Cha 14(+2); Skills: Concentration¹ +15, Knowledge (arcana) +23, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (local) +21, Knowledge (nature) +21, Knowledge (religion) +10, Knowledge (the planes) +16, Listen¹ +10, Spellcraft +16, Spot¹ +10. • Darkvision 90 feet. • Low-Light Vision • Regeneration(Ex): 5 • Spell-like abilities: At will - darkness, invisibility 1/day - charm person(DC 13), cone of cold (DC 17), gaseous form, sleep(DC 13). • Spell Resistance 26 • Flight(Su): You have a Fly speed of 40 feet(good). You can cease or resume flight as a free action. While in gaseous form you can fly at your normal fly speed with perfect maneuverability. • Change Shape (Su): An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant. • Quick Casting: You can cast 1 spell(s) a day as a swift action as long as the spells casting time is one standard action or less. Spells (6/7/6), CL11 —— Cantrips —— Acid Splash Disrupt Undead Ray of Frost Touch of Fatigue —— 1st-Level Spells —— Chill Touch Expeditious Retreat, Swift Ray of Enfeeblement Resist Energy Shocking Grasp Stand True Strike —— 2nd-Level Spells —— Acid Arrow See Invisibility Touch of Idiocy |
| #10carnivoreMay 31, 2010 14:31:09 | heres a Fun CR 15 encounter: Kobold Ambush: Kobold#1 Adept 11(CR 8) Kobold#2 Adept 11(CR 8) Kobold #3 Adept 11(CR 8) Kobold #4 Adept 11(CR 8) Kobold #5 Adept 11(CR 8) Kobold #6 1/2 Dragon Warrior 9(CR 8) Kobold #7 1/2 Fiend Warrior 9(CR 8) Kobold #8 1/2 Fiend Warrior 9(CR 8) Kobold #9 Warrior 11(CR 8) Kobold #10 Warrior 11(CR 8) Kobold #11 Warrior 11(CR 8) Kobold #12 Warrior 11(CR 8) combined this is a CR 15 encounter ..... lots of Fun for you, great challenge for Players .... make the last 4 Warriors Archers, the 1/2 Dragon and 1/2 Fiends are Melee Specialists ..... the Adepts support thier troops an Harrass the opponent Spellcasters ..... mainly they team up on PCs for more fun .... remove the last 1/2 Fiend Warrior 9(CR 8) ... and replace with 6 CR 3 creatures(Hell Hounds might be fun) ![]() |
| #11Maat_MonsMay 31, 2010 15:12:03 | For the ogre mages, maybe monster of legend (MMII). That is “a creature chosen by a god to perform an appointed task.” The template gives +2 CR, immunity to acid, fire, and mind-affecting, casting as a 5th level cleric, str +10, dex +6, con +10, int +2, wis +2, cha +4, and 5 more natural armor. In order to qualify for the monster of legend template, the ogre mages would need the shadow creature template (Manual of the Plains). That is +1 CR and gives 60 foot speed, cold resistance, +2 to saves, and fast healing 2. The regeneration overcome by nothing and immunity to mind-affecting should be difficult for all the PCs and not unduly target any particular player. I assume diehard lets the ogre mages take a standard action each round no matter how much non-lethal damage they have taken. You could add 4 cleric levels to round them out. |
| #12polygamistMay 31, 2010 16:53:06 | Carnivore, thanks for the input on the idea. My preference is to stick close the module, since the explanatory text relates to certain monsters. But, I'm not sure how to use these adepts. Are you referencing book of 9 swords? Maat, I am confused by the Diehard reference. I don't recall that being in any of the builds I posted yet. Maybe your templates could build the baddest Ogre Mage, sort of a master BBEG. The blocking of mind affecting would be OK for 1 or 2 of the 9. But, I don't want to completely gimp the Enchanter. The SR will be tough enough to get past as it is. |
| #13Maat_MonsMay 31, 2010 18:53:42 | Ogre mage's have SR 19. An 8th level caster can overcome that 100% of the time with assay resistance (Spell Compendium/Complete Arcane). It costs a swift action and a 4th level spell to gain +10 to overcome SR. The character is presumably at least 15th level. If a creature has less than 27 SR, you should just assume he will overcome it. If he's willing to spend a standard action, there's also spell vulnerability (Spell Compendium), which decreases a creature's spell resistance by 1 per caster level (max 15). That's only 3rd level. If he's willing to spend a feat, there's also arcane mastery (Complete Arcane), which lets you take 10 on caster level checks, including checks to overcome spell resistance. A determined 15th level wizard can get through SR 50 with 100% reliability. Diehard lets a creature remain conscious at negative HP. It doesn't address non-lethal damage, but it would be silly if non-lethal damage knocked you out when lethal damage wouldn't. So, if you are comfortable allowing diehard to be as effective against non-lethal damage as lethal, an ogre mage with diehard could not be knocked out with anything but acid or fire damage. This would mean a fighter wailing on an ogre mage with a sword would ultimately decrease the effectiveness of the ogre mage but not remove him from combat completely. This makes dealing acid or fire damage essential to attacking an orge mage via HP damage instead of merely easier. The point is, if he can't be taken out of the fight by non-lethal damage, he takes non-lethal damage from everything but acid and fire, and he is immune to acid and fire, then he can't be taken out of the fight by damage. That is the point of making him immune to mind-affecting effects, giving everyone trouble. This is the sort of fight where you add in an alternate way of defeating the enemy, because the PCs normal approach is ineffective. Anyway, you can pick different abilities for a monster of legend. A +4 bonus to all save DCs, fast healing 5, and a permanent haste effect are all options. I think the permanent spell turning effect is one of the best ones, but I was trying not to be too mean to the enchanter. |
| #14carnivoreMay 31, 2010 19:38:49 | Adept is an NPC spell casting class .... with Arcane and Divine spells what is the Module you are running ...... what types of NPCs are you looking for ![]() |
| #15polygamistMay 31, 2010 23:06:35 | Well, I suppose any players that come in here would recognize the party composition anyway by now. The module is Greyhawk Ruins. The NPC's needed are listed in the first post. I have always wanted to run this module in 3.5 as I have done for the GDQ series (also 2.0 modules) several years ago. The PC's are currently 7-8 level. I would really prefer to use the original monsters listed as it helps preserve the flavor of the module. We've started at 2-3 level and I plan to finish near epic level. But, my experience is that the BBEG are the most difficult to build well, and I tend to fall into a rut tactics wise. So the players deserve to have the monsters be more creative than I am capable of being on a consistent basis. |
| #16polygamistJun 02, 2010 21:34:45 | OK, here is one of the wizards listed. Not too experienced with wizard making, so go easy. Used +4 stat items (+6 headband), +4 cloak, +2 ring and belt of battle. More suggestions for equipment are appreciated.
Male Human Wiz13/FtS4/Mnb1; CR 18;
One feat slot is open. I'm open to constructive ideas on improving this build. Basic thrall-maker build. Please comment on feats, equipment, templates, spells, tactics, and whatever else you can think of. Also, you could suggest a decent thrall if you like. |
| #17carnivoreJun 03, 2010 4:30:15 | why Wiz 13 in that build .... how about this: Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 8/ Fate Spinner 4/ Mindbender 1 ![]() |
| #18polygamistJun 03, 2010 8:26:32 | Which book is incantatrix in? I probably don't have it, which is a problem. Would Master Specialist help almost as much? What does Incantrix do do well? |
| #19phaedrusxyJun 03, 2010 11:29:05 | Which book is incantatrix in? I probably don't have it, which is a problem. Would Master Specialist help almost as much? What does Incantrix do do well? Incantatrix is almost without question the most powerful wizard PrC in the entire 3.5 system, even if you include most homebrew... The big thing it does is allow you to apply metamagic to spells by making a (often very high) spellcraft check. You can even apply them to other people's spells. And it has full casting progression, and actually gives you a bonus metamagic feat like every other level. It's from the Player's Guide to Faerun. |
| #20polygamistJun 03, 2010 19:56:29 | well, it is powerful, but giving up 3 schools for a PC focusing on enchantment means you have to lose illusion or conjuration. Not just ouch, big ouch. Would Mage of the Arcane Order mitigate this loss? |