DMM Druid

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

loganic1

Aug 30, 2008 20:25:54		Not to be too weird, but would a druid be able to use and make good use of Divine metamagic, especially of course Persistent Spell.

If so would you be able to use combos like Ocular Spell to persist fun spells like Creeping cold?
#2

andinel

Aug 30, 2008 22:50:44 		No. Divine Metamagic is a Divine feat that requires you to spend Turn Undead attempts, something the druid never gets. So a druid cannot even get the DMM feat to begin with.
#3

natenate

Aug 31, 2008 0:24:09 		A Druid who takes a PrC to gain the Good domain can cast Dispel Evil and qualify for Sacred Exorcist, gaining the ability to Turn Undead. Since Divine Metamagic is only restricted to Divine spells in general, it would work on Druid spells just as easily as Cleric spells.
#4

rebel7284

Aug 31, 2008 1:47:42
A Druid who takes a PrC to gain the Good domain can cast Dispel Evil and qualify for Sacred Exorcist, gaining the ability to Turn Undead. Since Divine Metamagic is only restricted to Divine spells in general, it would work on Druid spells just as easily as Cleric spells.

Or a 1 level dip into cleric might be worth it.

Regardless of the method, yes it's a viable approach.
#5

epiqc

Aug 31, 2008 6:26:11 		The Wild Reaper from Dragon Magazine #311 is basically a variant druid who gains Turn Undead at level 12.
#6

sir_argenon

Aug 31, 2008 6:44:50 		like people have said above, dmm works on divine spells, not just divine cleric.

if you can get him some turning attempts then youre all set.
#7

loganic1

Aug 31, 2008 16:15:28 		A dip would be all it would take. Especially if you could get yourself some nightstick cheese or just extra turning attempts.

So here's another odd question could you persist creeping cold?
It's a cumulative damage spell. Granted it would probably have to get houseruled for extra damage.

Besides, Druids have many awesome buffs, I'm quite suprised no one's built a Persistent Druid yet.
#8

archerpwr

Aug 31, 2008 16:53:24 		Druids don't have that many buffs that are worth the AC/WS/Spells/Feats lost to get DMM: Persist. They can just use a metamagic rod of quicken for Bite of the XYZ while wildshaped into something with hands if they really want a buff up.

Basically, they can use DMM, but it is a bad idea.
#9

Omen_of_Peace

Aug 31, 2008 19:23:06 		I disagree...
Cloistered Cleric 1/Druid X is just as viable as Druid X+1. And it's not like Druids need that many feats - they can afford to take DMM instead of Augmented Summoning, for instance.

Interesting forms with hands start with the Legendary Ape at around 12-13 IIRC.

@loganic1: er, many persistent druids have been built. But Druids are awesome even without DMM while Clerics "need" it, get it more easily and benefit from it even more.

You can't persist Creeping Cold as is. If you use Ocular Spell (and your DM ok's it) it'll end up persisted on 1 creature only - not worth it.
#10

archerpwr

Aug 31, 2008 20:38:06
I disagree...
Cloistered Cleric 1/Druid X is just as viable as Druid X+1. And it's not like Druids need that many feats - they can afford to take DMM instead of Augmented Summoning, for instance.

Initiate of Nature, Natural Spell, Natural Bond, Greenbound Summoning, Rashemi Elemental Summoning, Ashbound, Dragon Wild Shape, Gatekeeper Initiate, etc. That's all just general stuff.
#11

Omen_of_Peace

Aug 31, 2008 21:20:10 		Of those only Natural Spell is needed. Gatekeeper Initiate is not too impressive by itself, Natural Bond depends on DM cooperation IIRC, a lot of the rest requires you to ignore cross-settingness and a *lot* of fluff. Which we may be ok with but shouldn't be general advice.

Moreover DMM (Persist), even when it costs you several feats, can get you a benefit as good as all but the best of those. (Produce Flame or Flame Blade to survive low levels, the Bites of X of course, Superior Magic Fang, Mass Lesser Vigor, Divine Favor if you have turn attempts left)
Cloistered Cleric also helps you get into Contemplative (if you wish to) to get interesting domain spells - like Divine Power or Righteous Might.
#12

archerpwr

Aug 31, 2008 21:52:16
Of those only Natural Spell is needed. Gatekeeper Initiate is not too impressive by itself, Natural Bond depends on DM cooperation IIRC, a lot of the rest requires you to ignore cross-settingness and a *lot* of fluff. Which we may be ok with but shouldn't be general advice.

Moreover DMM (Persist), even when it costs you several feats, can get you a benefit as good as all but the best of those. (Produce Flame or Flame Blade to survive low levels, the Bites of X of course, Superior Magic Fang, Mass Lesser Vigor, Divine Favor if you have turn attempts left)
Cloistered Cleric also helps you get into Contemplative (if you wish to) to get interesting domain spells - like Divine Power or Righteous Might.

If we go the cleric route we lose at least one CL, one level of AC, and one WS HD. Can you really be suggesting that? Even if we are netting knowledge devotion, extend spell, and extra turning in that level. It's totally not worth the delayed spells, AC, and WS.

It's very much a "suck now, don't suck as hard later" plan. Seriously, those spells you mention as being persistable? They suck except for Bite of X. Druids don't fricken need the persist. They have class features way more powerful. Like, getting spells one level faster.
#13

loganic1

Sep 01, 2008 9:04:22 		Meh archer's probably right.

One of these days I'll get bored and make a true CoDzilla by gestalting the two.

Would be an interesting arena challenger.

Cleric 20//Druid 20

Natural Spell, Intitiate of mystra, DMM Persist, DMM reach, DMM reach/ocular

Needs to be properly optimized, but I think it has potential to be more than half broken
#14

archerpwr

Sep 01, 2008 13:37:01
Meh archer's probably right.

One of these days I'll get bored and make a true CoDzilla by gestalting the two.

Would be an interesting arena challenger.

Cleric 20//Druid 20

Natural Spell, Intitiate of mystra, DMM Persist, DMM reach, DMM reach/ocular

Needs to be properly optimized, but I think it has potential to be more than half broken

I did something like that a while back. Something like:
Cloistered Cleric 3/ Church Inquisitor 2/ Dweomerkeeper 10/ Contemplative 1/ XXX 3// Druid 20
Feats of note:
DMM Persist, Initiate of Mystra, Natural Spell, Arcane Schooling
#15

tshern

Sep 01, 2008 14:43:57
Initiate of Nature, Natural Spell, Natural Bond, Greenbound Summoning, Rashemi Elemental Summoning, Ashbound, Dragon Wild Shape, Gatekeeper Initiate, etc. That's all just general stuff.

All the general stuff including 3.0 and campaign specific material. Not allowed in a bunch of campaigns.

Edit: Just to make sure, I agree that Druids don't need DMM that much. Shapechange is too easy to keep on all day long anyway.
#16

archerpwr

Sep 01, 2008 15:41:20
All the general stuff including 3.0 and campaign specific material. Not allowed in a bunch of campaigns.

Edit: Just to make sure, I agree that Druids don't need DMM that much. Shapechange is too easy to keep on all day long anyway.

Well, half wasn't campaign specific...
#17

tshern

Sep 01, 2008 15:45:44
Well, half wasn't campaign specific...

Out of eight, that still gives plenty of room for DMM if needed/wanted.

You also forgot Greensinger Initiate/Initiate of Nightbringers for all the Planar Shepherd love.
#18

Omen_of_Peace

Sep 01, 2008 16:20:07
Just to make sure, I agree that Druids don't need DMM that much.

Oh, I definitely agree with that. I did insist Druids are awesome without it.
Rods of Quicken are great but damn expensive. I still think Persisted spells can make up for the lost level most of the time. If you're not going to buff at all of course DMM adds little.

Shapechange is too easy to keep on all day long anyway.

Technically once you get Shapechange Wildshape loses a lot of value, so you "should" rebuild with full-casting PrCs. Hmm, except if the AC is still great (w/ Animal's Growth, Nature's Avatar...) - I honestly have no clue how well it fares. It's probably very destructive but I doubt it can cope with all the flying/teleportation/SLAs...
#19

tshern

Sep 01, 2008 16:28:53 		Depends on the amount of buffs you need to use. A single rod of normal Quicken gives you three quickened Bite of the Werebears. You don't need to use it in all encounters, so you have room for other spells too.

A bunch of good Druid buffs last long enough to be active at all times. Look at Superior resistance, Superior magic fang, Shapechange and, for some extra cheesiness, Venomfire. Turn into a ten-headed Shrieking terror and use your Empowered Maximized (a rod) Venomfire to 120+10d6 extra acid damage per attack. Bite of the Werebear is not a necessity, it just enlarges your schlong even more.
#20

discostan

Sep 01, 2008 20:06:24 		And don't forget, Charisma is usually a dump stat for druids, so you're probably not going to have too many turn attempts to fuel DMM with a typical druid's stat distribution. Unless, of course, you're allowed to stack Night Sticks.
#21

Omen_of_Peace

Sep 01, 2008 20:56:58 		Superior Magic Fang is actually 1min/lvl - presumably you're thinking of Greater Magic Fang.

Sure, if you bring Venomfire in the discussion everything else is dwarfed. I'm not sure the druid even needs Natural Spell anymore. :P

About the Rod of Quicken: it's 75.5k. The wealth at level 12 is 88k : at this level the DMM Druid gets to have Bite of the Werebear all day, not so for a normal Druid (who'd have to fill all his highest level slots with Bite and lose the 1st round of combat). +16 Str and the rest should make up nicely for -1 HD of Wildshape, -1 SL, etc... At levels 10/11 Bite of the Weretiger is also extremely nice. At higher levels Quickening definitely becomes a valid option.

@DiscoStan: not forgetting. It is an added drawback, but Druid have little MAD in the 1st place.
#22

tshern

Sep 02, 2008 14:50:58 		Hmm, actually it seems to be one round per level. Interesting, I remembered that wrong.

Anyway, Druid doesn't need Bite of the Werebear, so the entire point of using Divine metamagic for it is kind of useless. Moreover, you need a bunch of feats to achieve that: Persistent spell, DMM and you still lack correct spells to enter. I'd just rather take other feats.
#23

archerpwr

Sep 02, 2008 14:55:28
Superior Magic Fang is actually 1min/lvl - presumably you're thinking of Greater Magic Fang.

Sure, if you bring Venomfire in the discussion everything else is dwarfed. I'm not sure the druid even needs Natural Spell anymore. :P

About the Rod of Quicken: it's 75.5k. The wealth at level 12 is 88k : at this level the DMM Druid gets to have Bite of the Werebear all day, not so for a normal Druid (who'd have to fill all his highest level slots with Bite and lose the 1st round of combat). +16 Str and the rest should make up nicely for -1 HD of Wildshape, -1 SL, etc... At levels 10/11 Bite of the Weretiger is also extremely nice. At higher levels Quickening definitely becomes a valid option.

@DiscoStan: not forgetting. It is an added drawback, but Druid have little MAD in the 1st place.

So you blew a bunch of feats and class features to be dispel bait? Remember, you lost a CL too. Plus, every other level the Druid X+1 has better buff spells than you.
#24

tshern

Sep 02, 2008 14:59:01 		Unless he went Sacred Exorcist.
#25

Omen_of_Peace

Sep 02, 2008 18:32:59
So you blew a bunch of feats and class features to be dispel bait? Remember, you lost a CL too. Plus, every other level the Druid X+1 has better buff spells than you.

Which he has to spend actions on and doesn't have up if there's surprise/he loses Init. Since rocket tag fights last 3 rounds...

You're barely more dispel bait than a DMM Cleric, and we were agreeing recently that divine casters have the easiest time raising their CL. Ring of Enduring Arcana, Karma Bead & co are our friends.

@Tshern: SE would be ideal but qualification is tricky. A nice DM would let, say, a Gatekeeper Initiate's Banishment work instead of Dismissal but it's not RAW.
Thanks for the correction regarding SMF - I went from memory.

CC 1/Druid 5 (BAB +3, Persisted Bite of the Werewolf)
Free: Extend, Improved Init*, Knowledge Devotion
H Persistent Spell
1 DMM: Persist
3 Extra Turning
6 Natural Spell

* I didn't get Extra Turning since Undeath is not appropriate for most druids. One could also go for another Devotion feat.

Druid 6 (BAB +4)
H Improved Initiative
1 Greenbound Summoning
3 Ashbound
6 Natural Spell

They have different strengths. The 2nd is definitely better for low point buys. In a duel I'd put my money on the 1st since summoning takes 1 round until one can reliably use Rapid Spell.

At level 7 the 2nd may pull ahead but I don't remember any terrific 4th level spell. At level 9 it'd definitely benefit from gainin Animal Growth first. At level 8 the 1st got Bite of the Wereboar though.

I personally dislike Persist so I'm not in favor of it, but I think the CC dip pulls its own weight.
#26

tshern

Sep 03, 2008 13:30:44 		Too bad Extra spell got hit with nerfhammer. That would be awesome for Druids for this purpose. Another problem with DMM Druids is that they actually need to carry the nightsticks somewhere and polar bears tend not to carry a bag full of magical staves.
#27

Omen_of_Peace

Sep 03, 2008 21:37:58 		Uh ? DMM (Persist) druids just let the sticks meld after the daily buffing session. Agreed for DMM (Quicken), but so do archerpwr's Rod-of-Quicken druid... In the end I wouldn't recommend DMM(Quicken) for a druid.
#28

tshern

Sep 04, 2008 3:11:52
Uh ? DMM (Persist) druids just let the sticks meld after the daily buffing session. Agreed for DMM (Quicken), but so do archerpwr's Rod-of-Quicken druid... In the end I wouldn't recommend DMM(Quicken) for a druid.

Would you keep the enhancement bonuses to your physical abilities even if you wildshape AFTER casting the spells? I didn't know that.

And I don't agree with archer, metamagic rods are too expensive to be relied on.
#29

carnivore

Sep 04, 2008 5:18:05 		for DMM with Druid.... try this:

Human

Driud 5/ Master of Radience 1/ .... continue Druid xxx

feats:
Extend Spell(human Bonus)
1st lvl: Persistant Spell
3rd lvl: Natural Spell
6th lvl: DMM(Persistant)

your choice from this point on....... Initiate of Nature, Natural Bond, Greenbound Summoning, Rashemi Elemental Summoning, Ashbound, Dragon Wild Shape, Gatekeeper Initiate,etc...

Master of Radience gives Turn Undead as a Class feature, and Druids can qualify easily for it... in fact Most masters of radiance are druids, due to their historical connection to sun-worshiping sects.

:D
#30

Omen_of_Peace

Sep 04, 2008 8:31:48
Extend Spell(human Bonus)
1st lvl: Persistant Spell
3rd lvl: Natural Spell
6th lvl: DMM(Persistant)

Surely you mean DMM at 3 and NS at 6 ? You don't qualify for NS at 3 and it's useless to you.

Master of Radience gives Turn Undead as a Class feature, and Druids can qualify easily for it... in fact Most masters of radiance are druids, due to their historical connection to sun-worshiping sects. \

Cloistered Cleric is superior to MoR which also loses a SL and doesn't bring domains or skill points in.

The best way for a Druid to get Turn Undead is actually to get the UA domain variant and take the Sun domain for 1 turn attempt. You don't lose a SL - you just need to take Extra Turning/buy Nightsticks/raise your Cha. I don't see many DMs allowing it since you gain something powerful and lose nothing.

Would you keep the enhancement bonuses to your physical abilities even if you wildshape AFTER casting the spells? I didn't know that.

Yes. In general for effects that you "control" you get to decide the order in which they apply. The exceptions are clearly stated: Empower+Maximize stacking, Resist Energy+Protection from Energy, etc...
#31

tytalus

Sep 04, 2008 9:11:48
Surely you mean DMM at 3 and NS at 6 ? You don't qualify for NS at 3 and it's useless to you.

You also don't qualify for DMM at level 3, since you don't have Turn Undead until level 6 with this build.
#32

tshern

Sep 04, 2008 11:03:52 		And Natural spell requires wildshape, so that one doesn't fly either.
#33

direfrostwolf

Sep 04, 2008 14:08:37 		Where can i find the Master of Radience?
#34

Omen_of_Peace

Sep 05, 2008 7:39:47
You also don't qualify for DMM at level 3, since you don't have Turn Undead until level 6 with this build.

Uh, thanks - brainfart. I focused on what was wrong and forgot that it wasn't my build. :embarrass

Master of Radiance is from Libris Mortis - check the Consolidated Lists (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists) for all further similar questions.
Master of Radience

carnivore

Sep 05, 2008 15:19:04 		sorry about the errors... was just working quickly and didnt check the build...

look here for Master of Radience .... its from Libris Mortis


:D
#36

alanlichen

Sep 06, 2008 12:47:46 		9 Druid /1 Holt Warden / 1 Contemplative (Domain: Good)/1 Sacred Exorcist

Extra domain spell and turn undead, at level 12.

Quite self-explanatory.

Never used this build though, just because generally speaking it's too PG -_-......
#37

alanlichen

Sep 07, 2008 12:48:35 		Oh, I kind of forgot to mention that 1 level of Planar Druid among 9 levels of Druid may give enough Knowledge:Plane...
#38

direfrostwolf

Sep 07, 2008 16:38:48
9 Druid /1 Holt Warden / 1 Contemplative (Domain: Good)/1 Sacred Exorcist

Extra domain spell and turn undead, at level12......

wouldn't be easier if you worship a nature god with the good domain and take 1 level dip in divine disciple (don't remember which book) so you could get the good domain and the only thing to qualify for it is bieng able to cast 4th lv divine spell and 5 ranks in diplomacy and 8 ranks in Knowledge religion
#39

shokatsuryou

Sep 07, 2008 18:29:03
wouldn't be easier if you worship a nature god with the good domain and take 1 level dip in divine disciple (don't remember which book) so you could get the good domain and the only thing to qualify for it is bieng able to cast 4th lv divine spell and 5 ranks in diplomacy and 8 ranks in Knowledge religion

That only works if you're allowed to use the Divine Disciple found in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0).

The Divine Disciple found in the more recent Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5) does not get an extra domain until level 4.
#40

direfrostwolf

Sep 07, 2008 22:16:26
That only works if you're allowed to use the Divine Disciple found in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0).

The Divine Disciple found in the more recent Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5) does not get an extra domain until level 4.

Oh sorry i didn't know that...... my bad, thanks for the clearing:P