Does this work? Monk/Fighter/Shen - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Does this work? Monk/Fighter/Shen

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ObsidianConspiracy
Apr 27, 2012 10:27:39 I was reading the Shen prc (Dragon #319, page 68) and it seems flavourful... I particularly like the Snake Shen. Now my idea was to make a single striking damage dealer.

My idea is to use Decisive Strike because the Snake Shen only gains one unarmed attack as a bite attack in it's hybrid form... although this could be stacked with flurry of blows it seems more efficient to make a single strike which can be made to auto crit.

So:
Monk 2/Fighter 4/Shen X

Race: Unknown

Feats:
Level 1: Kung Fu Genius
Monk 1: Stunning Fist
Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
Level 3: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
Fighter 1: Power Attack
Fighter 2: Weapon Finesse
Fighter 4: ???
Level 6: Superior Unarmed Strike
No idea from here

Basically, turn into a snake, only other thing I can think of is finding a way to gain reach... I'd want to finish the Shen class however.

Also, what are people's thoughts on the class? It seems interesting as a monk PrC, BAB requirement seems a bit high though.
#2
The_Crimson_Dawn
Apr 28, 2012 3:13:41 I don't know about this specific prc due to being dragon but generally a bite attack is not an "unarmed attack". A bite can not be used in a flurry of blows (or decisive strike) since it is not a monk weapon generally speaking.
#3
ObsidianConspiracy
Apr 28, 2012 9:42:09 It states:
'...gains a bite attack that deals piercing unarmed damage' rereading it you're right, but if that's the case then it loses most of it's abilities when you change to hybrid form, whereas all the other shen forms keep theirs
#4
Tempest_Stormwind
Apr 28, 2012 10:02:07
It states:
'...gains a bite attack that deals piercing unarmed damage' rereading it you're right, but if that's the case then it loses most of it's abilities when you change to hybrid form, whereas all the other shen forms keep theirs

And now you see why Dragon magazine material generally isn't up to the cut that WotC material typically was - Dragon didn't have as much time or budget for playtesting. As written, yes, the snake shen form would lose all of its monk abilities relative to the bite except its unarmed damage. Furthermore, it's a natural attack, which follows a completely different set of rules (for instance, a character with natural attacks can make all his normal attacks with manufactured weapons and then follow up with one attack from each natural weapon).
#5
ObsidianConspiracy
Apr 28, 2012 10:24:03 I've just realised how stupid I've been about this...

A monk can make an unarmed strike with any part of his body, so with the Snake Shen abilities you can still use them, so it could work with the monk as written. Even though it doesn't need to be snake form to function it's stronger in said form
#6
The_Crimson_Dawn
Apr 28, 2012 23:31:33 Careful it won't work with decisive strike. Dealing your unarmed damage dice is not the same as using your unarmed strike (unless this has some explicit exception to the normal rules) so the bite may not work. Granted you can use it with flurry (well more accurately you use it in addition to the flurry but flurrying with your unarmed strikes and then attacking with natural weapons taking al the penalties).
#7
ObsidianConspiracy
Apr 29, 2012 2:37:39 It's alright... I think I have it figured now. When hybrid you're still a monk, so you can still use your unarmed strikes... so the bonus Dex and Int from Hybrid form, + int to damage instead of strength... + 18-20 threat range and improved critical can be used simply by using any part of the snake's body... such as a headbutt.... or a 'bite', thematically, without actually using a bite attack.

Question is now, how to gain reach
#8
Unahim
Apr 29, 2012 8:54:50
It's alright... I think I have it figured now. When hybrid you're still a monk, so you can still use your unarmed strikes... so the bonus Dex and Int from Hybrid form, + int to damage instead of strength... + 18-20 threat range and improved critical can be used simply by using any part of the snake's body... such as a headbutt.... or a 'bite', thematically, without actually using a bite attack.

Question is now, how to gain reach

Have some caster cast Enlarge Person on you or carry a load of enlarge person pots around.
#9
Tempest_Stormwind
Apr 29, 2012 9:25:59 That assumes you're still humanoid, when what I'm reading sounds a lot like lycanthropy.

War Shaper 4 will grant you reach. It'll also complement your alternate forms quite well (bigger natural attacks, increased Strength, fast healing, and so on). You'll lose out on some monk advancement but a monk's belt will fix that.

Alternatively you can take levels in a psionic combat class (psychic warrior, ardent, war mind, etc) and puck up Tashalatora, a feat from Secrets of Sarlona which gives that class full monk advancement. (Honestly, with that feat, there's practically no reason ever to play a monk.) These classes come with access to Expansion, which unlike Enlarge Person will work no matter your type or form. You can also grab other fun powers along the way (for a single striker, Duodimensional Claw basically gives you Improved Critical - Any Natural Attack, including unarmed strikes, for instance). I'd suggest War Mind out of these because it has full base attack, but qualifiying can be a pain.
#10
ObsidianConspiracy
May 03, 2012 2:53:17 There is reason in a setting where Psionics doesn't exist thanks to our party from the previous game :S

More than anything I was looking into making the Shen useful... if it advanced monk abilities it might be more so.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ObsidianConspiracy Apr 27, 2012 10:27:39	I was reading the Shen prc (Dragon #319, page 68) and it seems flavourful... I particularly like the Snake Shen. Now my idea was to make a single striking damage dealer. My idea is to use Decisive Strike because the Snake Shen only gains one unarmed attack as a bite attack in it's hybrid form... although this could be stacked with flurry of blows it seems more efficient to make a single strike which can be made to auto crit. So: Monk 2/Fighter 4/Shen X Race: Unknown Feats: Level 1: Kung Fu Genius Monk 1: Stunning Fist Monk 2: Combat Reflexes Level 3: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) Fighter 1: Power Attack Fighter 2: Weapon Finesse Fighter 4: ??? Level 6: Superior Unarmed Strike No idea from here Basically, turn into a snake, only other thing I can think of is finding a way to gain reach... I'd want to finish the Shen class however. Also, what are people's thoughts on the class? It seems interesting as a monk PrC, BAB requirement seems a bit high though.
#2 The_Crimson_Dawn Apr 28, 2012 3:13:41	I don't know about this specific prc due to being dragon but generally a bite attack is not an "unarmed attack". A bite can not be used in a flurry of blows (or decisive strike) since it is not a monk weapon generally speaking.
#3 ObsidianConspiracy Apr 28, 2012 9:42:09	It states: '...gains a bite attack that deals piercing unarmed damage' rereading it you're right, but if that's the case then it loses most of it's abilities when you change to hybrid form, whereas all the other shen forms keep theirs
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 28, 2012 10:02:07	It states: '...gains a bite attack that deals piercing unarmed damage' rereading it you're right, but if that's the case then it loses most of it's abilities when you change to hybrid form, whereas all the other shen forms keep theirs And now you see why Dragon magazine material generally isn't up to the cut that WotC material typically was - Dragon didn't have as much time or budget for playtesting. As written, yes, the snake shen form would lose all of its monk abilities relative to the bite except its unarmed damage. Furthermore, it's a natural attack, which follows a completely different set of rules (for instance, a character with natural attacks can make all his normal attacks with manufactured weapons and then follow up with one attack from each natural weapon).
#5 ObsidianConspiracy Apr 28, 2012 10:24:03	I've just realised how stupid I've been about this... A monk can make an unarmed strike with any part of his body, so with the Snake Shen abilities you can still use them, so it could work with the monk as written. Even though it doesn't need to be snake form to function it's stronger in said form
#6 The_Crimson_Dawn Apr 28, 2012 23:31:33	Careful it won't work with decisive strike. Dealing your unarmed damage dice is not the same as using your unarmed strike (unless this has some explicit exception to the normal rules) so the bite may not work. Granted you can use it with flurry (well more accurately you use it in addition to the flurry but flurrying with your unarmed strikes and then attacking with natural weapons taking al the penalties).
#7 ObsidianConspiracy Apr 29, 2012 2:37:39	It's alright... I think I have it figured now. When hybrid you're still a monk, so you can still use your unarmed strikes... so the bonus Dex and Int from Hybrid form, + int to damage instead of strength... + 18-20 threat range and improved critical can be used simply by using any part of the snake's body... such as a headbutt.... or a 'bite', thematically, without actually using a bite attack. Question is now, how to gain reach
#8 Unahim Apr 29, 2012 8:54:50	It's alright... I think I have it figured now. When hybrid you're still a monk, so you can still use your unarmed strikes... so the bonus Dex and Int from Hybrid form, + int to damage instead of strength... + 18-20 threat range and improved critical can be used simply by using any part of the snake's body... such as a headbutt.... or a 'bite', thematically, without actually using a bite attack. Question is now, how to gain reach Have some caster cast Enlarge Person on you or carry a load of enlarge person pots around.
#9 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 29, 2012 9:25:59	That assumes you're still humanoid, when what I'm reading sounds a lot like lycanthropy. War Shaper 4 will grant you reach. It'll also complement your alternate forms quite well (bigger natural attacks, increased Strength, fast healing, and so on). You'll lose out on some monk advancement but a monk's belt will fix that. Alternatively you can take levels in a psionic combat class (psychic warrior, ardent, war mind, etc) and puck up Tashalatora, a feat from Secrets of Sarlona which gives that class full monk advancement. (Honestly, with that feat, there's practically no reason ever to play a monk.) These classes come with access to Expansion, which unlike Enlarge Person will work no matter your type or form. You can also grab other fun powers along the way (for a single striker, Duodimensional Claw basically gives you Improved Critical - Any Natural Attack, including unarmed strikes, for instance). I'd suggest War Mind out of these because it has full base attack, but qualifiying can be a pain.
#10 ObsidianConspiracy May 03, 2012 2:53:17	There is reason in a setting where Psionics doesn't exist thanks to our party from the previous game :S More than anything I was looking into making the Shen useful... if it advanced monk abilities it might be more so.