Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fansy Mar 29, 2008 10:32:13	Say a warlock was able to qualify for a double casting prc class like Eldritch Theurge without taking any levels in an arcane spellcasting class... How would you apply the double casting progression? - CArc says that +1 arcane casting is added to Warlock invocation progression. - Eld. Theurge also is +1 to invocation using class Would such a warlock gain double progression for levels taken in Eldritch Theurge? Nothing (actual rule-wise) is coming to mind that would prevent it...but I could be forgetting something simple. Thanks
#2 ieniemienie Mar 29, 2008 11:05:42	1st: you can never qualify for that PrC with only one class 2nd: because you can never qualify for that PrC with only one class, you cannot get into the PrC, so you cannot gain any benefit from it. 3rd: unless you fit two classes into one class and give him arcane casting and invocations, then yes you can get into the PrC and get twice the benefits
#3 cyrocloud Mar 29, 2008 11:13:59	I'm thinking it might work. You would still need to take some levels in an arcane casting class to make it work, but I think it would work. The only reason I think it may work is because I forget where it was stated, but for example if you took two classes with divine spellcasting and made it into a prc then you could choose which class you would want to progress, and since you have two classes that qualify for the +1 arcane spell advancement then you should be able to choose. If your DM allows you to do this then it's up to him whether you would either advance twice as fast or you would be able to choose twice the amount of invocations.
#4 vicen_korel Mar 29, 2008 11:15:24	How did you qualify that would be the big question.
#5 fansy Mar 29, 2008 11:22:38	See here. The Cliff Notes version: A halfling warlock can get into the Nosomatic Chirurgeon from Dragonmarked, p. 114. At level 1 this prc allows the character to spontaneously lose a use per day of a spell-like ability (I choose to lose a use of an invocation since it is unlimited per day) and in turn "cast any inflict spell of the same spell level or lower." Since warlocks are arcane, this gives warlocks the ability to cast arcane spells of x level...allowing a single class warlock to qualify for Eldritch Theurge. :D Thus, my question. (I cannot take credit for this idea, see the linked thread for the true discoverer(s))
#6 mittenninja Mar 29, 2008 11:25:28	There's one problem with that. You have to lose a use of your spell like ability. If you have infinite uses and you take away one, you still have infinite. Infinite is not any less than infinite. Therefore you never lost a use.
#7 fansy Mar 29, 2008 11:26:33	It actually says: "'lose' a single use" 1. So, because lose is in quotes, in the text, it likely means something like burn. 2. And "a single use" is just that. Either or both 1 & 2 preempt the infinite argument
#8 mittenninja Mar 29, 2008 11:31:24	My statement still stands, you still never lost a use as you can still use the ability the same numerical number of times as before, it doesn't matter if it said daily, hourly, per encounter, weekly or whatever, It's at will which means infinite. Infinite-1 = infinite, so you never lost a use.
#9 fansy Mar 29, 2008 11:36:17	Your argument is a literal semantic one, based on a word that is in quotes...which following english usage, does NOT carry exactly the same literal meaning as the unquoted word. So, the precision you are trying to inject into the ability just isn't there in that word. AND, your strict interpretation of the usage of lose in the ability would eviscerate the prc in its intended usage... Lose means a permanent deprivation of (at least until it is found). So this prc would give a character the AMAZING ability to permanently lose a use/day of a dragonmark ability in order to case an inflict spell once...not exactly a stellar ability. So, back to the actual question of the thread...how would the double progression apply?
#10 mittenninja Mar 29, 2008 11:49:56	AND, your strict interpretation of the usage of lose in the ability would eviscerate the prc in its intended usage... Lose means a permanent deprivation of (at least until it is found). So this prc would give a character the AMAZING ability to permanently lose a use/day of a dragonmark ability in order to case an inflict spell once...not exactly a stellar ability. That is why "lose" in is quotes. If you compare this ability to a cleric's spontaneous casting it's worded exactly the same. You don't permanently lose it. Regardless of my interpretation, Eldritch Theurge can't possibly add to warlock twice. Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (but not an invocation-using class) to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. Emphasis Mine. Ultimate Magus wouldn't work either as it specifies spontaneous and prepared casting classes, which the warlock is neither. So unless there's another arcane/arcane dual casting prc out there, it's not going to work.
#11 fansy Mar 29, 2008 11:56:08	Regardless of my interpretation, Eldritch Theurge can't possibly add to warlock twice. Emphasis Mine. That's what I was looking for, an answer either way...can't believe I missed that line. Thanks.
#12 cyrocloud Mar 29, 2008 12:42:12	Even though you have infinite uses you still only have 24*60*10 uses a day(+3 more if you have quicken). either way each round that goes by you use one use so you could expend it. So you could expend one use, since I believe it is mathamaticaly correct to have infinity - 1(well at least it flies in hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.).
#13 mittenninja Mar 29, 2008 12:47:57	Just because you don't have enough time to use an ability infinite times doesn't mean you have a limited amount of uses.
#14 Nezkrul Mar 31, 2008 1:22:20	regardless of everyone's arguments, Pestilential Touch is a (Su) ability. It is not spell casting.
#15 x-codes Mar 31, 2008 6:04:56	Even though you have infinite uses you still only have 24*60*10 uses a day(+3 more if you have quicken). either way each round that goes by you use one use so you could expend it. So you could expend one use, since I believe it is mathamaticaly correct to have infinity - 1(well at least it flies in hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.). Nevermind things such as quickened time stops, celerities, and so on that utterly shatter the space-time continuum. Seriously, check the TO boards. Time is as malleable as porridge to a high-level arcane caster (or someone that's good enough at faking it).
#16 fansy Mar 31, 2008 8:39:46	regardless of everyone's arguments, Pestilential Touch is a (Su) ability. It is not spell casting. But that ability says you cast a spell.