| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1noria_merfolk_mageApr 22, 2008 11:09:57 | I'm currently preparing for a 15th level campaign, and my friend is investigating the possibility of a Two-weapon using Crusader, using a mix of White Raven Manuvers (pretty much the entire party has melee ability) and the Thicket of Blades stance. I pointed him at the Double Hit feat in the MiniHB, but I can't help but feel it's not an optimal build, because most strikes only use single attacks. Is there a way for him to build this character to make best advantage of crusader manuvers for 2 weapons? Would he be better off switching to Warblade for Tiger Claw manuvers, and taking Martial Stance for Thicket of Blades (2 feats is a lot, particularly if he wants to fit in Robilar's Gambit as well)? Or should he put the whole idea aside and go for another style? |
| #2davethemagicweaselApr 22, 2008 12:17:12 | Can't it be both? Warblade / Crusader, with Thicket, dual wielding kusari gamas (or glaive + armour spikes is easier), and Robilar's, and Stormguard Warrior. |
| #3noria_merfolk_mageApr 22, 2008 12:42:29 | Multiclassing with Martial Classes can get a bit messy, as I've found making my own characters, but I suppose all he would need would be a single level of Crusader at level 9 or higher. I got the impression he wanted to maximise his Furious Counterstrike though. Question: would 3 levels of Bloodclaw Master be worthwhile for a build like this? |
| #4lordofleapinApr 22, 2008 13:06:55 | You'll need to take at least two levels of Crusader to get Thicket of Blades, if going primarily Warblade. Unfortunately, all martial classes are forced to take a 1st level stance when they take their 1st level of Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage. As for Bloodclaw, I'd only take two levels. All you really need from that PrC is the full STR to off hand and the elimination of the TWF penalty. Furious Counterstrike does indeed make Crusaders natural TWF'ers in my opinion. For somewhat of a different build, you could look into taking a level of Bard and take the Song of the White Raven feat. This feat allows swift aciton Inspire Courage, and stacks Crusader and Warblade levels with Bard levels for determining the effect of Inspire Courage. Along with Words of Creation and possibly Draconic Inspiration, as well as other Inspire Courage feats, spells, and items, you can get a very effective buff from that song. Not only would the Crusader/Bard character deal some impressive damage, but the entire party benefits from the song as well. Words of Creation does create the MAD problem however. EDIT: The above Bard concept does complicate things a bit. If your friend wants something more straight forward, Dave gave some good advice with the Warblade/Crusader Robilar's/Stormguard suggestion. |
| #5davethemagicweaselApr 22, 2008 13:41:24 | Crusader heavy for Furious Counterstrike, dipping Warblade for Stormguard and TWF boosts (Tiger Claw, etc) is perfectly viable. You lose a couple of Warblade bonus feats, so you're a little tighter than the Warblade heavy version, but the Crusader recovery and DDP is worth it if that's what floats your boat. +1 on the Bard dip. Get yourself a Vest of Legends (DMG2) tho - otherwise you'll only have Bardic Music 1/day. Fitting all those feats in would be hard, but awesome if you can manage it! And as I've said before, imo cross-dipping the ToB classes is (almost) always the optimal thing to do (only exception I can really think of is if you want Dual Stance as a Warblade 20). |
| #6ksbsnowowlApr 22, 2008 14:08:56 | I'll also support going Crusader 13/Warblade 2 for start at 15th level. That'll delay your last crusader stance until 16th level, but it will give you a crusader initiator level of 15 at 16th level, which means you can gain one of the 8th level stances, such as Immortal Fortitude. |
| #7gafferApr 22, 2008 15:04:55 | You'll need to take at least two levels of Crusader to get Thicket of Blades, if going primarily Warblade. Unfortunately, all martial classes are forced to take a 1st level stance when they take their 1st level of Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage. Is there a FAQ/Sage/CustServ ruling on this? I never subscribed to that view. I'm AFB, but I believe the passage reads "...starts play with a level 1 stance" or some such. That'd imply a level 1 character begins with a 1st level stance, which is redundant, but doesn't indicate (IMO) that the first stance @ any level must be 1st. |
| #8lordofleapinApr 22, 2008 16:45:22 | Is there a FAQ/Sage/CustServ ruling on this? I never subscribed to that view. I'm AFB, but I believe the passage reads "...starts play with a level 1 stance" or some such. That'd imply a level 1 character begins with a 1st level stance, which is redundant, but doesn't indicate (IMO) that the first stance @ any level must be 1st. I'm only going by what the book says, not what it doesn't say. All the martial adepts state that you begin play with knowledge of a 1st level stance that each adept could learn. To me, this states that you're stuck with taking a 1st level stance at Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade 1. The "begin play" probably isn't the best wording they could've used, but I take that to mean when you take your first level of adept you gain a 1st level stance. You begin play as a martial adept, in other words, whether that is at level 1 or at level 20. Nowhere does it state that if you take a martial adept after character level 1 that you can choose a stance other than a 1st level stance that is open to your relevant martial adept class. |
| #9davethemagicweaselApr 22, 2008 17:22:36 | So, here's a stab at putting it all together. Only way I can get it all in is with flaws and equipment granted feats, but the end result is pretty good: Human EWP (Kusari Gama)* 2 Flaws Stand Still, TWF Bard 1 Dragonfire Inspiration Crusader 1 Leading the Charge Crusader 2 Song of the White Raven (Iron Guard’s Glare or Martial Spirit) Crusader 3 Crusader 4 Warblade 1 Ironheart Aura Punishing Stance Crusader 5 White Raven Tactics Crusader 6 Defensive Rebuke {Acquire Gloves of the Balanced Hand for Improved TWF and Serpent Armour for Combat Reflexes}** Crusader 7 Double Hit Crusader 8 Thicket of Blades Crusader 9 Crusader 10 Stormguard Warrior Crusader 11 Crusader 12 Crusader 13 Robilar’s Gambit Warblade 2 Pouncing Strike Crusader 14 Crusader 15 Martial Study (Raging Mongoose) Crusader 16 Strike of Righteous Vitality Warblade 3? 6th level Maneuver? It's by no means a full maneuver progresssion, just a few sign posts that I'd suggest you use to navigate by (some of them on there are obligatory, e.g. Punishing Stance) * If kusari gama not available then EWP (Spiked Chain) and use armour spikes. That means you won't be able to Double Hit at reach, but you will get Str x 1.5 on your primary attacks, so its not all bad. While the glaive + spikes combo is fine normally as a way to threaten close up, for a TWFing build you won't to be able to bring both weapons to bear simultaneously (having to 5 ft. step half way through every full attack will be fiddly, and likely cause you to lose out on potential attacks). ** Ideally, you want your DM to let you reverse engineer the Serpent Armour (to +X for Combat Reflexes), and then put that on your armour of choice. However, if necessary wear the Serpent Armour and then get the party Cleric/Wizard/Druid to cast Greater Luminous Armour (BoED) or Greater Magic Armour (SC) on you each morning. GLA is better than any armour anyway, so that's the ideal, but either way you should be able to get up a good AC (and you won't lose movement and skills). Besides, you'll want a high Dex to be able to make the maximum of AoOs per round. If the feats from equipment option isn't available then you will probably need to drop Ironheart Aura and Stormguard Warrior. Put Combat Reflexes at level 6, Improved TWF at level 9 and Double Hit at level 12. This is less than desirable tho, because you will likely be generating so many AoOs that you will need Stormguard in order to make use of the excess. The other option would be to drop the Bard stuff to free up two feats, but too many of the feats in the build have prereqs that mean they can't be moved to 1st level, so I don't think that would work. If flaws aren't available I think you'd have to drop the Bard stuff and ditch SotWR and Dragonfire. That would be a major hit to power tho I'm afraid. For tactics, I suggest you get a Wand of Inspirational Boost and keep it in a Wand Chamber in your weapon. Start each combat in Leading the Charge stance and use Inspirational Boost wand (Standard) + Music (Swift) as opening round. After that, switch to Thicket of Blades and start dishing out enormous numbers of attacks, with Dragonfire Inspiration for massive damage. |
| #10tleilaxu_gholaApr 22, 2008 20:42:14 | Is there a FAQ/Sage/CustServ ruling on this? I never subscribed to that view. I'm AFB, but I believe the passage reads "...starts play with a level 1 stance" or some such. That'd imply a level 1 character begins with a 1st level stance, which is redundant, but doesn't indicate (IMO) that the first stance @ any level must be 1st. There was a Cust/Serv ruling to that effect. It is also the RAW-literal interpretation. I've gotten over it, though, since it can be circumvented by "double dipping" Crusader. |
| #11wolfie-kunApr 23, 2008 18:00:10 | There was a Cust/Serv ruling to that effect. It is also the RAW-literal interpretation. I've gotten over it, though, since it can be circumvented by "double dipping" Crusader. It's easy to justify flavor-wise anyway--learning a new style, the stance comes with the training or something like that. |
| #12snizorApr 23, 2008 19:55:33 | Courtesy of my Sig.Name: Apprentice of Chains |