Browsing through my CC the other evening, and I start checking out Trickery Devotion. At low levels, it sounds like a mediocre combat trick (which one's me?), but then I noticed something:
Complete Champion, p.63 wrote:
With the mention of lockpicks, they totally should have included the word "mundane" before equipment. Stupid writers/editors.
As far as the level 15 combat actions go... it says it has a Str 1/2 yours, but what if you have Weapon Finesse? I'd guess that's a no go, since it's based on Major Image at this point. It could still be an awesome trip monkey for a Cancer Mage w/ Festering Anger.
- If the enemy has concealment (from fog, or from displacement effects or something similar), you can make it look like your clone is trying to attack the enemy but misses because of the enemy's concealment.
- If you have another spellcaster in the party that can cast spells without anyone noticing it (I'm sure you can think of several ways to do this, so I won't specify any), you can use a bluff check to make it look like your clone was the one casting the spell, thus making him a primary target for your enemy.
- If your party is hiding and the guy you're hiding from hears you, you can send Mr. Clone to charge at him and then "trip" before completing the attack, thus making the foe not only concentrate on attacking your clone, but also incouraging him to attack your clone while he's "helpless".
What I really like about this feat is that it can be really useful if you're creative enough.
Come on guys - I just KNOW the wording here is broken!
FIGURE THIS OUT WITH ME! :bounce:
I guess this would greatly benefit a Truenamer, who only needs to make Skill Checks to hurt stuff. (And if the Shadow-you uses an Utterance, it won't increase your DC.)
I like that one a LOT. I was thinking about those skill checks in my OP, and as you can see, I couldn't come up with a TON. I think the main ones I noted were Intimidate + Imperious Command (for cowering enemies) and Use Magic Device.
But truenaming?
Sheer genius!
C'mon guys - let's keep it up! After all, from 15th level on they can attack, too - I like a Wand of Shivering Touch for that - don't you think? ;)
A thought - you can use the truenaming skill, sure, but would that actually let you use Utterances? Technically, they're spell-like abilities, which is kind of too bad . . .
- Your double pushes the foe into your threatened area.
- You whap the foe multiple times with Aoos/Combat Reflexes.
One thing the language is unclear on is whether you can command the double to act independently of you or if all of its abilities are dependent on you occupying its senses. Even if you were occupying its senses, though, you could always use another sense like blindsight to allow you to operate independently.
This is getting interesting!
Edit: Well, some quick thinking didn't really help, the only thing I came up with was:
Get an insane Sleight of Hand and use your double (who acts at the same time as you) to move eachother around with free actions.
That's not bad either, but I'm starting to get less optimistic. It seems we have our best option already with the Bull Rushing duo.
Although, activating Wands with spells that don't require Attack Rolls, or Utility Items with limited charges (Scroll of True Ressurection?) is still a bit better in my opinion. A single Feat seems a small cost to be able to get one minute of "free" item use each day.
Think about it: It says your Str score is really crappy for the duplicate, but you use Dex to damage and so does the clone. You also add Int to damage from SWB, and it has everything you do. +5 Collision Aptitude Shadow Discipline Elven Thinblades hurt like hell with Oversized TWFing and Shadowblade Technique!
It is Dvati on crack with casters that know Astral Projection. Hell, this is a really cheap way to abuse the Rod of Many Wands (yes, I am in love with that item) and Touch-range spells.
Hell, throw in DCFS and a Familiar on a Factotum and call it a freaking life! Coure Eladrin with Trickery Devotion, while I have it too? And we have clones of everything we own? And I cast a false Astral Projection from a scroll my Simulacrum had? This could get really broken really fast...
TWFing on a Gatling Gun makes the 15th level ability a house with Shadow Blade. I think a Daring Swordsage would make the most of that, or a Swift Hunter with Travel Devotion.
Think about it: It says your Str score is really crappy for the duplicate, but you use Dex to damage and so does the clone. You also add Int to damage from SWB, and it has everything you do. +5 Collision Aptitude Shadow Discipline Elven Thinblades hurt like hell with Oversized TWFing and Shadowblade Technique!
It is Dvati on crack with casters that know Astral Projection. Hell, this is a really cheap way to abuse the Rod of Many Wands (yes, I am in love with that item) and Touch-range spells.
Hell, throw in DCFS and a Familiar on a Factotum and call it a freaking life! Coure Eladrin with Trickery Devotion, while I have it too? And we have clones of everything we own? And I cast a false Astral Projection from a scroll my Simulacrum had? This could get really broken really fast...
Sweet. A new Legion trick to be put in Campaign Smashers. Trickery Devotion -> Scroll of Astral Projection. Ooooh, I think I had an evilgasm.
Sweet. A new Legion trick to be put in Campaign Smashers. Trickery Devotion -> Scroll of Astral Projection. Ooooh, I think I had an evilgasm.
I ought to make a Dvati Daring Swordsage that uses Trickery Devotion to kill things. That would be one hell of an encounter!
Hmmm - is iaijutsu a skill check for this purpose? And the low strength really isn't an issue...
the skill check is possible; the attack action required is not
Could we do a UMD trick that let us deal slashing damage, paired with an Iaijutsu Focus trick to up it?
A pair of Dungeoncrashers might work nicely, too, for batting a foe back and forth to each other with Aoos.
And a Dvati with Trickery Devotion would get . . . wiggy . . . I'm seeing images of Naruto ("Tajyuu kagebunshin no jutsu!"). Throw on Mirror Image to really amp it up.
Seriously, though - what was that idea with the scroll of Astral Projection? I'm interested. Always felt like this was an idea whose time had come, but never got the support I needed to figure out its abuse in entirety. Glad someone came over to cast raise thread!
But the skill check to use items is IN, so . . .
Could we do a UMD trick that let us deal slashing damage, paired with an Iaijutsu Focus trick to up it?
A pair of Dungeoncrashers might work nicely, too, for batting a foe back and forth to each other with Aoos.
And a Dvati with Trickery Devotion would get . . . wiggy . . . I'm seeing images of Naruto ("Tajyuu kagebunshin no jutsu!"). Throw on Mirror Image to really amp it up.
Seriously, though - what was that idea with the scroll of Astral Projection? I'm interested. Always felt like this was an idea whose time had come, but never got the support I needed to figure out its abuse in entirety. Glad someone came over to cast raise thread!
By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.
You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.
You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.
While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.
You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).
Material Component
A jacinth worth at least 1,000 gp, plus a silver bar worth 5 gp for each person to be affected.
The Hypertext d20 SRD
Note that the Copies have identical items to you and anyone affected. The trick is to either have the Simulacrum cast the spell from the scroll while in contact with you, or Planar Ally a Nightmare in and have it use its Astral Projection on you, your Clone, and itself. You then have two clones of yourself via Trickery Devotion, and one Astral Form, all of which have copies of your equipment and can use them at their leisure. You can then abuse expendable items such as wands or staves or scrolls to make things ridiculously broken. Better yet, a Ring of Three Wishes or a Luckblade with 3 Wishes will be an infinite source of Wishes.
When using Planar Ally/Binding to summon the Nightmare, use a Scroll of it, and have the Simulacrum cast it. The copy would pay the price for it, which is effectively nothing so long as it is within 5 ft of the Nightmare, and you get a free Astral Projection.
Edit: For extra brokenness, a pair of Dvati Wizards with different equipment and Trickery Devotion could effectively get triple the items out of this loop. Take THAT Wealth Per Level!
...Bardic Music...with Words of Creation...
Hmn, that's not a skill check. But if your Simulcrum can play bardic music, it frees you up to do other things, which could be quite fun.
Your simulcrum maintains Inspire Courage, while you cast spells, attack, or even Inspire Greatness or Heroism.
I particularly enjoy the 'phantom items'. Does that mean you can use a scroll of Wish without using the real version, forever?
Yeah, but I think it's a little bit too exploitative for it to fly... same issue with that MM5 shadow race that can create items at will (without specifiying they are mundane). More a theoretical optimization ability than a practical one -- sane DMs probably won't allow it.
I have played around with Trickery Devotion a bit in a home campaign, and like it a lot. I've used it to set up flanks, to scout, to spring ambushes, to draw AOOs, to steal stuff, etc. Best use so far was to just get the attention of a really large nasty monster and play hide and seek with it for a while -- while the rest of the party ran away at speed.
Yeah, but I think it's a little bit too exploitative for it to fly... same issue with that MM5 shadow race that can create items at will (without specifiying they are mundane). More a theoretical optimization ability than a practical one -- sane DMs probably won't allow it.
You can do the same thing via Astral Projection, too. Or Lesser Planar Binding a Nightmare, since they can use it at will. Unless you're in a game using the "Wish economy", expect your DM to choke on his Mt. Dew when you mention this.
You can do the same thing via Astral Projection, too. Or Lesser Planar Binding a Nightmare, since they can use it at will. Unless you're in a game using the "Wish economy", expect your DM to choke on his Mt. Dew when you mention this.
Yeah, Astral Projection is banned in most campaigns I've played in for this reason, to stop people from duplicating their items. (As well as because it makes the game trivial -- you can't die.)
Trickery Devotion doesn't explicitly say it duplicates magic, IIRC, so I'd be reluctant to let it do a lot of this stuff. I mean, imagine a psionic character who could duplicate himself when he's at 50% PP, and then psionic vampire all the points back into himself. That's more theoretical optimization stuff than practical optimization.
There's still tons of neat stuff you can do with Trickery Devotion without duplicating magic, though.
Yeah, Astral Projection is banned in most campaigns I've played in for this reason, to stop people from duplicating their items. (As well as because it makes the game trivial -- you can't die.)
Trickery Devotion doesn't explicitly say it duplicates magic, IIRC, so I'd be reluctant to let it do a lot of this stuff. I mean, imagine a psionic character who could duplicate himself when he's at 50% PP, and then psionic vampire all the points back into himself. That's more theoretical optimization stuff than practical optimization.
There's still tons of neat stuff you can do with Trickery Devotion without duplicating magic, though.
Which is why it would rely on the items it replicates.
Here's to the next generation!
Uh, what?
Also for those of you that have just discovered trickery devotion by reading this thread, check the complete champion errata. It specifically excludes magical and alchemical items.
Here's to the next generation!
Cheers!
What's this for?
Also for those of you that have just discovered trickery devotion by reading this thread, check the complete champion errata. It specifically excludes magical and alchemical items.
That actually makes me want to use it, now.
Here's to the next generation!
Seriously... What?
Seriously... What?
It may be relevant to this...
Secondly, I was looking over Death Devotion.
quote
Benefit: Once per day as a swift action, you can cause
one of your melee weapons to radiate negative energy for 1
minute. When you make a successful attack with this weapon,
the target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your
character level + your Cha modifi er) or gain a negative level.
You can bestow only one negative level per target for every
four character levels you possess (minimum one, maximum
fi ve negative levels at 20th level).
/quote
My question here is this- if I cast Death Devotion one round, then trickery the next, does my images weapon have this effect on it? Can i start swinging at 15th level and do enough hits to make something go down on neg. levels with these two feats? Or is there something I am missing?