Draconic Skirmisher - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Draconic Skirmisher

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
true_shinken
Mar 20, 2008 9:21:42 I had this little idea while thinking about joining one of the CO campaigns here, but unfortunatelly there a lot of other people interested in that one and I'm alreayd playing at Sinfire Titan's game, so I don't think it would be fair to take that spot :/

Anyway, the character I had thought was a mobile character with skirmish and travel devotion, as we all know a pretty solid combination. What I just noticed, however, is the Charisma synergy such a build could have. Travel Devotion is fueled by turning attempts, meaning the more Cha you have, the more turn attempts you can sacrifice for extra uses of TD. Dragon Devotee progresses skirmish damage faster than Scout and gets Sorcerer (Cha-based) spellcasting while also getting a bonus to Cha... and qualifying for Unseen Seer, that also progresses skirmish.

Basically, we are talking about a gish-light heavy on Charisma. We need levels of Scout for skirmish, Dragon Devotee for skirmish plus Sorcerer casting and Unseen Seer for progressing both.

For the class that grants turn undead to fuel Travel Devotion, I'm thinking about Paladin of Freedom. I like Chaotic Good characters and Divine Grace is good for the Charisma synergy. Paladin 4, with CC sub, also gets a bonus feat. I know Cloistered Cleric is arguably better, but I like high BAB and getting extra attacks ASAP and Cloistered Cleric loses an extra BAB.

For race, I thought about Spellscale, but that Con hit really hurts.

I'm thinking Human Scout 4/Paladin of Freedom 4/Dragon Devotee 5/Unseen Seer 4. I wanted to finish Dragon Devotee, despite the BAB hit, and I think it's worth it.

For feats, Improved Skirmish and Expeditious Dodge are a given. Probably using TWF as well. Divine Might, if I have the turning attempts to spare, is also nice.

Now, for the extra levels in the build. I thought maybe more Unseen Seer, maybe Abjurant Champion (hard to fit all 5 levels though), maybe Ranger for Swift Hunter.

Thoughts on this? All feedback is apreaciated.
#2
stickboy2323
Mar 20, 2008 10:30:17 Well a Human Scout 2, Paladin 4, DD 5, US 4, AC 5 would get you a +5d6 skirmish, 11th level sorc casting and BAB/CL +16. I think you might need Able Learner to hit all the skill prereqs and like you said Improved Skirmish is a must.
#3
ChristopherGroves
Mar 20, 2008 10:35:35 Why not Scout x, Pally 2, Cleric 1, DD 5, US whatever
#4
skydragonknight
Mar 20, 2008 13:24:33 You'll want Dragonfire Strike from Dragon Magic and Draconic Heritage(Battle Dragon) to have the option of changing your Skirmish damage to sonic-and if you do, you get an extra d6 from Dragonfire Strike.

You might need an actual Sorceror level to get Draconic Heritage though.
#5
the_shaman
Mar 20, 2008 17:25:07 I'm not sure you need the pally levels... 1 level of cleric - cloistered or not - does it for less trouble, and if you really want to maximize sorcerer levels Sacred Exorcist also grants TU.
#6
true_shinken
Mar 20, 2008 20:10:37
Well a Human Scout 2, Paladin 4, DD 5, US 4, AC 5 would get you a +5d6 skirmish, 11th level sorc casting and BAB/CL +16. I think you might need Able Learner to hit all the skill prereqs and like you said Improved Skirmish is a must.

Unfortunatelly, I need Scout 3 to qualify for Improved Skirmish.

You'll want Dragonfire Strike from Dragon Magic and Draconic Heritage(Battle Dragon) to have the option of changing your Skirmish damage to sonic-and if you do, you get an extra d6 from Dragonfire Strike.

You might need an actual Sorceror level to get Draconic Heritage though.

Indeed, Dragonfire Strike fits flavorwise and an extra d6 to damage is not bad. Getting Draconic Heritage should be allowed, I guess... it ain't by RAW, but it's not game breaking or anything and fits flavorwise.

Why not Scout x, Pally 2, Cleric 1, DD 5, US whatever

I'm not sure you need the pally levels... 1 level of cleric - cloistered or not - does it for less trouble, and if you really want to maximize sorcerer levels Sacred Exorcist also grants TU.

Like I said in the OP, I don't want to lose more BAB.
#7
davethemagicweasel
Mar 20, 2008 20:15:01
I need Paladin 4 for turning.

But Paladin 2 / Cleric 1 gets you turning and divine grace in one less level than Paladin 4.

Granted at the loss of 1 BAB, but with domains/devotion feats as recompense it's not all bad (Law and/or Knowledge can easily push you ahead in to-hit terms, tho how the lost BAB affects the progression in terms of qualifying for feats and getting the extra Manyshot arrows might be a factor.
#8
skydragonknight
Mar 20, 2008 20:45:16
Granted at the loss of 1 BAB, but with domains/devotion feats as recompense it's not all bad (Law and/or Knowledge can easily push you ahead in to-hit terms, tho how the lost BAB affects the progression in terms of qualifying for feats and getting the extra ~~Manyshot~~ Rapid Shot arrows might be a factor.

Fix'd it for you.
#9
x-codes
Mar 20, 2008 20:57:50 Scout 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 5/Dragon Devotee 5/Unseen Seer 7

Thats 7d6 Skirmish damage and 2 Favored enemies with Swift Hunter. With fractional BAB you get exactly BAB +16 plus you get Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Two-Weapon Fighting as free feats, plus one extra from the Ranger's non-spellcasting option from CC. It's true you don't get charisma to saves, but your saves should be pretty good regardless (10/13/12 base, 12/15/14 fractional, if memory serves, with easy access to Steadfast Determination and even a Con bump).
#10
skydragonknight
Mar 20, 2008 21:33:00
Scout 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 5/Dragon Devotee 5/Unseen Seer 7

Thats 7d6 Skirmish damage and 2 Favored enemies with Swift Hunter. With fractional BAB you get exactly BAB +16 plus you get Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Two-Weapon Fighting as free feats, plus one extra from the Ranger's non-spellcasting option from CC. It's true you don't get charisma to saves, but your saves should be pretty good regardless (10/13/12 base, 12/15/14 fractional, if memory serves, with easy access to Steadfast Determination and even a Con bump).

You need at least 3 levels of Scout to qualify for Swift Hunter. Also, Ranger 5 gives you nothing since you're stacking Scout and Ranger levels to determine favored enemies. Scout 3/Ranger 4 is optimal. You can trade your Ranger spell for a feat(unless you really like wands of ranger spells). Fractional BAB is still 16. Nonfractional BAB is still 14 though. But at high levels you can pay the money to get a metamagic wandgrip and persist Divine Power using a wand...or Persist Swift Haste from a wand to get an extra attack that way.
#11
x-codes
Mar 20, 2008 23:21:33 I forgot that you needed the first AC bump for Swift Hunter. However, Ranger 5 isn't "nothing", true it doesn't give more favored enemies, but it still lets you skirmish them.

Also, your suggestion does not give +16 BAB fractional. Scout = 1.5, Cloistered Cleric = .5, Ranger = 5, Dragon Devotee = 3.75, and Unseen Seer = 5.25.

1.5 + .5 + 5 + 3.75 + 5.25 = 16.0

Your adjustment reduces it by .25, making it 15.75 which gets rounded down.

The best option I can think of is dropping the "Cloistered" part of Cloistered Cleric, leaving you with Travel Devotion and a Domain and requiring you to take Knowledge Devotion with your standard allotment. That will give you the BAB needed to move 1 from Ranger to Scout. Moving the level from Dragon Devotee instead is an option, but that's a pretty heavy level giving Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, another level of Sorcerer casting, and +2 Strength.

Another kicker is that we now need a Race with FC: Cleric instead of FC: Any or FC: Ranger. How about Raptorian? Thats a nice, mobile race with various solid bonuses going for it.
#12
kurobara
Mar 21, 2008 0:33:56
But Paladin 2 / Cleric 1 gets you turning and divine grace in one less level than Paladin 4.

Granted at the loss of 1 BAB, but with domains/devotion feats as recompense it's not all bad (Law and/or Knowledge can easily push you ahead in to-hit terms, tho how the lost BAB affects the progression in terms of qualifying for feats and getting the extra Manyshot arrows might be a factor.

Dragon Devotee has a BAB pre-req of +5, so that could end up pushing back PrC entry. Though if fractional BAB isn't in use, at least then Cleric and Cloistered Cleric work out the same, so it might be worth it for free (well, trade-in) Knowledge Devotion.

Anyway, I'm certainly no CharOp expert, but my instincts are saying Scout 3/Cleric 1/Paladin 2 (or possibly Scout 1/Cleric 3 depending on whether you'd rather have the third-level Scout stuff or 2nd-level Cleric spells) if there's fractional BAB in use, either Scout 1/Paladin 5 (Charging Smite sub for sure, CC sub optional depending on whether you'd rather have a bonus feat from a smallish list or Paladin wands and scrolls) or Scout 2/Paladin 4 if there's not fractional BAB.

The latter options have the problem of needing to spend a feat on Travel Devotion, though, so even without fractional BAB, it might still be worth the PrC setback to take the Cleric levels.
#13
true_shinken
Mar 21, 2008 9:54:56 I think getting early into Dragon Devotee, the boost to Smite Evil (Cha-powered) and the flavor are all worth keeping Paladin 4. Too bad there are no NG or CG dragon gods, it would be very fitting.

I wanted Scout 4, for the bonus feat, but since Paladin 4 also gets it (plus turning), I'm fine with that. Burning a feat on Travel Devotion is fine, since you get a bonus feat from Paladin. Basically, it all boils down to this: Cloistered Cleric 1/Paladin 2 gets more skill points but loses HP and bab, Paladin 4 is an extra level and gets less skill points. I'm still siding with Paladin 4 here - Cloistered Cleric might be superior in the long run, but I think Paladin 4 is better for immediate return, since it even gets you earlier into Dragon Devotee.

About Charging Smite, it doesn't work with Travel Devotion, since it's not a charge.

Also, I was thinking melee rather than ranged. TWF gives a lot more return on skirmish than Rapid Shot and you can't smite with ranged weapons.

EDIT: Some stuff I thought:

- Hand of the Winged Masters 3 costs a feat (Dragontouched) and gives Draconic Senses (not bad), +1d6 Skirmish and Dragonfire Strike. You basically have to burn 2 feats (one for Dragontouched and the other for Draconic Heritage), but as you already have the dragonblood subtype and sorcerer casting, I guess it could be worked with a reasonable DM. Anyways, Dragonfire Strike is pretty nice, I just don't think it's worth burning two feats.

- Getting some weird weapon that does not use your hands for your main attacks frees your hands for two claw attacks. This would probably cost a feat for Improved Unarmed Stike (which does open up Ascetic Mage) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

- What the build simply must have, by now:
* Scout 3/Dragon Devotee 5/Unseen Seer 4, for the skirmish. This is +5d6 (+1 AC) skirmish.
* Travel Devotion to trigger skirmish and some way to fuel it with turn attempts. Paladin 4 or (Cloistered) Cleric 1 are the options. For an evil build, a Necrodraco Skirmisher with Dread Necromancer 2 could work. Would be a pretty memorable BBEG, I guess.
* TWF to maximize benefits from skirmish.

What can be added:
* Paladin (of Freedom just for the flavor) 4 adds Divine Grace, Smite Evil and turning. Some Charisma synergy with the Sorcerer casting.
* This could be polemic, but I think Cleave is actually worth it in a build like this, for fighting mobs, since you don't need to surround yourself with enemies to make use of it. It does take two feats and require Str 13, though.
* Hand of the Winged Masters (see above)
* Knowledge Devotion for extra damage (don't think it's necessary, though)
* Improved Unarmed Strike or other way to free claws for an extra pair of attacks
#14
syrazemyla
Mar 21, 2008 10:40:09
Too bad there are no NG or CG dragon gods, it would be very fitting.

Tamara and Aasterinan come to mind, and that's without any of my books.
#15
true_shinken
Mar 21, 2008 10:46:40
Tamara and Aasterinan come to mind, and that's without any of my books.

What book are they from?
#16
kurobara
Mar 21, 2008 10:54:40
About Charging Smite, it doesn't work with Travel Devotion, since it's not a charge.

Oh yeah, duh. Serves me right for posting right before going to bed after a long session myself followed by frantic homework. Oops.

It was just the first of the 5th level alternate class features that sprung to mind for that version of the lead-in to DD, as it's really the only one that gets talked about. The Dungeonscape substitution for special mount is decent but only if you're taking significantly more paladin than just 5 levels, which in and of itself is kind of meh and certainly won't work here. Haven't really looked at any of the others.
#17
true_shinken
Dec 29, 2008 19:01:45 I'm finally gonna use this guys as an NPC! Yay! ^^
#18
syrkres
Jan 06, 2009 8:13:27 Mind if I ask what was the final build?
#19
the_shaman
Jan 06, 2009 12:15:11
I think getting early into Dragon Devotee, the boost to Smite Evil (Cha-powered) and the flavor are all worth keeping Paladin 4. Too bad there are no NG or CG dragon gods, it would be very fitting.

Check the draconomicon - iirc there is a NG deity of life called Tamara. I've been thinking of making a paladin/templar or a paladin/dracon devotee of hers, actually.
#20
phaedrusxy
Jan 06, 2009 12:20:44 (Magic-blooded)? Dragonborn human would work for the race, wouldn't it?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 true_shinken Mar 20, 2008 9:21:42	I had this little idea while thinking about joining one of the CO campaigns here, but unfortunatelly there a lot of other people interested in that one and I'm alreayd playing at Sinfire Titan's game, so I don't think it would be fair to take that spot :/ Anyway, the character I had thought was a mobile character with skirmish and travel devotion, as we all know a pretty solid combination. What I just noticed, however, is the Charisma synergy such a build could have. Travel Devotion is fueled by turning attempts, meaning the more Cha you have, the more turn attempts you can sacrifice for extra uses of TD. Dragon Devotee progresses skirmish damage faster than Scout and gets Sorcerer (Cha-based) spellcasting while also getting a bonus to Cha... and qualifying for Unseen Seer, that also progresses skirmish. Basically, we are talking about a gish-light heavy on Charisma. We need levels of Scout for skirmish, Dragon Devotee for skirmish plus Sorcerer casting and Unseen Seer for progressing both. For the class that grants turn undead to fuel Travel Devotion, I'm thinking about Paladin of Freedom. I like Chaotic Good characters and Divine Grace is good for the Charisma synergy. Paladin 4, with CC sub, also gets a bonus feat. I know Cloistered Cleric is arguably better, but I like high BAB and getting extra attacks ASAP and Cloistered Cleric loses an extra BAB. For race, I thought about Spellscale, but that Con hit really hurts. I'm thinking Human Scout 4/Paladin of Freedom 4/Dragon Devotee 5/Unseen Seer 4. I wanted to finish Dragon Devotee, despite the BAB hit, and I think it's worth it. For feats, Improved Skirmish and Expeditious Dodge are a given. Probably using TWF as well. Divine Might, if I have the turning attempts to spare, is also nice. Now, for the extra levels in the build. I thought maybe more Unseen Seer, maybe Abjurant Champion (hard to fit all 5 levels though), maybe Ranger for Swift Hunter. Thoughts on this? All feedback is apreaciated.
#2 stickboy2323 Mar 20, 2008 10:30:17	Well a Human Scout 2, Paladin 4, DD 5, US 4, AC 5 would get you a +5d6 skirmish, 11th level sorc casting and BAB/CL +16. I think you might need Able Learner to hit all the skill prereqs and like you said Improved Skirmish is a must.
#3 ChristopherGroves Mar 20, 2008 10:35:35	Why not Scout x, Pally 2, Cleric 1, DD 5, US whatever
#4 skydragonknight Mar 20, 2008 13:24:33	You'll want Dragonfire Strike from Dragon Magic and Draconic Heritage(Battle Dragon) to have the option of changing your Skirmish damage to sonic-and if you do, you get an extra d6 from Dragonfire Strike. You might need an actual Sorceror level to get Draconic Heritage though.
#5 the_shaman Mar 20, 2008 17:25:07	I'm not sure you need the pally levels... 1 level of cleric - cloistered or not - does it for less trouble, and if you really want to maximize sorcerer levels Sacred Exorcist also grants TU.
#6 true_shinken Mar 20, 2008 20:10:37	Well a Human Scout 2, Paladin 4, DD 5, US 4, AC 5 would get you a +5d6 skirmish, 11th level sorc casting and BAB/CL +16. I think you might need Able Learner to hit all the skill prereqs and like you said Improved Skirmish is a must. Unfortunatelly, I need Scout 3 to qualify for Improved Skirmish. You'll want Dragonfire Strike from Dragon Magic and Draconic Heritage(Battle Dragon) to have the option of changing your Skirmish damage to sonic-and if you do, you get an extra d6 from Dragonfire Strike. You might need an actual Sorceror level to get Draconic Heritage though. Indeed, Dragonfire Strike fits flavorwise and an extra d6 to damage is not bad. Getting Draconic Heritage should be allowed, I guess... it ain't by RAW, but it's not game breaking or anything and fits flavorwise. Why not Scout x, Pally 2, Cleric 1, DD 5, US whatever I'm not sure you need the pally levels... 1 level of cleric - cloistered or not - does it for less trouble, and if you really want to maximize sorcerer levels Sacred Exorcist also grants TU. Like I said in the OP, I don't want to lose more BAB.
#7 davethemagicweasel Mar 20, 2008 20:15:01	I need Paladin 4 for turning. But Paladin 2 / Cleric 1 gets you turning and divine grace in one less level than Paladin 4. Granted at the loss of 1 BAB, but with domains/devotion feats as recompense it's not all bad (Law and/or Knowledge can easily push you ahead in to-hit terms, tho how the lost BAB affects the progression in terms of qualifying for feats and getting the extra Manyshot arrows might be a factor.
#8 skydragonknight Mar 20, 2008 20:45:16	Granted at the loss of 1 BAB, but with domains/devotion feats as recompense it's not all bad (Law and/or Knowledge can easily push you ahead in to-hit terms, tho how the lost BAB affects the progression in terms of qualifying for feats and getting the extra ~~Manyshot~~ Rapid Shot arrows might be a factor. Fix'd it for you.
#9 x-codes Mar 20, 2008 20:57:50	Scout 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 5/Dragon Devotee 5/Unseen Seer 7 Thats 7d6 Skirmish damage and 2 Favored enemies with Swift Hunter. With fractional BAB you get exactly BAB +16 plus you get Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Two-Weapon Fighting as free feats, plus one extra from the Ranger's non-spellcasting option from CC. It's true you don't get charisma to saves, but your saves should be pretty good regardless (10/13/12 base, 12/15/14 fractional, if memory serves, with easy access to Steadfast Determination and even a Con bump).
#10 skydragonknight Mar 20, 2008 21:33:00	Scout 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 5/Dragon Devotee 5/Unseen Seer 7 Thats 7d6 Skirmish damage and 2 Favored enemies with Swift Hunter. With fractional BAB you get exactly BAB +16 plus you get Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Two-Weapon Fighting as free feats, plus one extra from the Ranger's non-spellcasting option from CC. It's true you don't get charisma to saves, but your saves should be pretty good regardless (10/13/12 base, 12/15/14 fractional, if memory serves, with easy access to Steadfast Determination and even a Con bump). You need at least 3 levels of Scout to qualify for Swift Hunter. Also, Ranger 5 gives you nothing since you're stacking Scout and Ranger levels to determine favored enemies. Scout 3/Ranger 4 is optimal. You can trade your Ranger spell for a feat(unless you really like wands of ranger spells). Fractional BAB is still 16. Nonfractional BAB is still 14 though. But at high levels you can pay the money to get a metamagic wandgrip and persist Divine Power using a wand...or Persist Swift Haste from a wand to get an extra attack that way.
#11 x-codes Mar 20, 2008 23:21:33	I forgot that you needed the first AC bump for Swift Hunter. However, Ranger 5 isn't "nothing", true it doesn't give more favored enemies, but it still lets you skirmish them. Also, your suggestion does not give +16 BAB fractional. Scout = 1.5, Cloistered Cleric = .5, Ranger = 5, Dragon Devotee = 3.75, and Unseen Seer = 5.25. 1.5 + .5 + 5 + 3.75 + 5.25 = 16.0 Your adjustment reduces it by .25, making it 15.75 which gets rounded down. The best option I can think of is dropping the "Cloistered" part of Cloistered Cleric, leaving you with Travel Devotion and a Domain and requiring you to take Knowledge Devotion with your standard allotment. That will give you the BAB needed to move 1 from Ranger to Scout. Moving the level from Dragon Devotee instead is an option, but that's a pretty heavy level giving Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, another level of Sorcerer casting, and +2 Strength. Another kicker is that we now need a Race with FC: Cleric instead of FC: Any or FC: Ranger. How about Raptorian? Thats a nice, mobile race with various solid bonuses going for it.
#12 kurobara Mar 21, 2008 0:33:56	But Paladin 2 / Cleric 1 gets you turning and divine grace in one less level than Paladin 4. Granted at the loss of 1 BAB, but with domains/devotion feats as recompense it's not all bad (Law and/or Knowledge can easily push you ahead in to-hit terms, tho how the lost BAB affects the progression in terms of qualifying for feats and getting the extra Manyshot arrows might be a factor. Dragon Devotee has a BAB pre-req of +5, so that could end up pushing back PrC entry. Though if fractional BAB isn't in use, at least then Cleric and Cloistered Cleric work out the same, so it might be worth it for free (well, trade-in) Knowledge Devotion. Anyway, I'm certainly no CharOp expert, but my instincts are saying Scout 3/Cleric 1/Paladin 2 (or possibly Scout 1/Cleric 3 depending on whether you'd rather have the third-level Scout stuff or 2nd-level Cleric spells) if there's fractional BAB in use, either Scout 1/Paladin 5 (Charging Smite sub for sure, CC sub optional depending on whether you'd rather have a bonus feat from a smallish list or Paladin wands and scrolls) or Scout 2/Paladin 4 if there's not fractional BAB. The latter options have the problem of needing to spend a feat on Travel Devotion, though, so even without fractional BAB, it might still be worth the PrC setback to take the Cleric levels.
#13 true_shinken Mar 21, 2008 9:54:56	I think getting early into Dragon Devotee, the boost to Smite Evil (Cha-powered) and the flavor are all worth keeping Paladin 4. Too bad there are no NG or CG dragon gods, it would be very fitting. I wanted Scout 4, for the bonus feat, but since Paladin 4 also gets it (plus turning), I'm fine with that. Burning a feat on Travel Devotion is fine, since you get a bonus feat from Paladin. Basically, it all boils down to this: Cloistered Cleric 1/Paladin 2 gets more skill points but loses HP and bab, Paladin 4 is an extra level and gets less skill points. I'm still siding with Paladin 4 here - Cloistered Cleric might be superior in the long run, but I think Paladin 4 is better for immediate return, since it even gets you earlier into Dragon Devotee. About Charging Smite, it doesn't work with Travel Devotion, since it's not a charge. Also, I was thinking melee rather than ranged. TWF gives a lot more return on skirmish than Rapid Shot and you can't smite with ranged weapons. EDIT: Some stuff I thought: - Hand of the Winged Masters 3 costs a feat (Dragontouched) and gives Draconic Senses (not bad), +1d6 Skirmish and Dragonfire Strike. You basically have to burn 2 feats (one for Dragontouched and the other for Draconic Heritage), but as you already have the dragonblood subtype and sorcerer casting, I guess it could be worked with a reasonable DM. Anyways, Dragonfire Strike is pretty nice, I just don't think it's worth burning two feats. - Getting some weird weapon that does not use your hands for your main attacks frees your hands for two claw attacks. This would probably cost a feat for Improved Unarmed Stike (which does open up Ascetic Mage) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency. - What the build simply must have, by now: * Scout 3/Dragon Devotee 5/Unseen Seer 4, for the skirmish. This is +5d6 (+1 AC) skirmish. * Travel Devotion to trigger skirmish and some way to fuel it with turn attempts. Paladin 4 or (Cloistered) Cleric 1 are the options. For an evil build, a Necrodraco Skirmisher with Dread Necromancer 2 could work. Would be a pretty memorable BBEG, I guess. * TWF to maximize benefits from skirmish. What can be added: * Paladin (of Freedom just for the flavor) 4 adds Divine Grace, Smite Evil and turning. Some Charisma synergy with the Sorcerer casting. * This could be polemic, but I think Cleave is actually worth it in a build like this, for fighting mobs, since you don't need to surround yourself with enemies to make use of it. It does take two feats and require Str 13, though. * Hand of the Winged Masters (see above) * Knowledge Devotion for extra damage (don't think it's necessary, though) * Improved Unarmed Strike or other way to free claws for an extra pair of attacks
#14 syrazemyla Mar 21, 2008 10:40:09	Too bad there are no NG or CG dragon gods, it would be very fitting. Tamara and Aasterinan come to mind, and that's without any of my books.
#15 true_shinken Mar 21, 2008 10:46:40	Tamara and Aasterinan come to mind, and that's without any of my books. What book are they from?
#16 kurobara Mar 21, 2008 10:54:40	About Charging Smite, it doesn't work with Travel Devotion, since it's not a charge. Oh yeah, duh. Serves me right for posting right before going to bed after a long session myself followed by frantic homework. Oops. It was just the first of the 5th level alternate class features that sprung to mind for that version of the lead-in to DD, as it's really the only one that gets talked about. The Dungeonscape substitution for special mount is decent but only if you're taking significantly more paladin than just 5 levels, which in and of itself is kind of meh and certainly won't work here. Haven't really looked at any of the others.
#17 true_shinken Dec 29, 2008 19:01:45	I'm finally gonna use this guys as an NPC! Yay! ^^
#18 syrkres Jan 06, 2009 8:13:27	Mind if I ask what was the final build?
#19 the_shaman Jan 06, 2009 12:15:11	I think getting early into Dragon Devotee, the boost to Smite Evil (Cha-powered) and the flavor are all worth keeping Paladin 4. Too bad there are no NG or CG dragon gods, it would be very fitting. Check the draconomicon - iirc there is a NG deity of life called Tamara. I've been thinking of making a paladin/templar or a paladin/dracon devotee of hers, actually.
#20 phaedrusxy Jan 06, 2009 12:20:44	(Magic-blooded)? Dragonborn human would work for the race, wouldn't it?