In our current campaign, the DM has developed a story arc in a desert land, and asked us to create "desert-flavored" characters, with an eye toward developing them to at least level 16, if not beyond. Some other players have begun arcane classes, a Scout, a druid, and we will have at least 2 Cleric-based characters as well.
I have an RP idea for a greatsword-wielding man with the blood of Blue Dragons (since the campaign takes place in the desert) in his veins. He doesn't know about his dormant draconic abilities, and he is unfamiliar with the arcane. He starts as a Fighter, working the merchant caravans as hired muscle, meets and is befriended by some arcane-types travelling with the caravan and learns some things (to get the 8 ranks in Knowledge-Arcane required for Dragon Disciple), eventually learns some more about his draconic heritage and dabbles in his innate power (taking at least one level of Sorcerer), eventually awakening his Dragon Disciple class.
So, my question is this: How would I work up a Dragon Disciple as a melee character? I want him to keep his fighting career going, and have him see the Blue Dragon abilities as a way to improve his prowess. I'd like to take advantage of the full 10 levels of Dragon Disciple, since the stat boosts seem nice and the wings are just, well, cool. ;) He is human, and I thought Fighter4 would at least get him Weapon Specialization.
Our campaign allows core books (not PHB2) and all the "Complete" books only. Our game doesn't seem to be overly powered, and most BBEGs are tough (full use of feats/spells/PrC, etc..) but not impossible to defeat. We have a fairly large group, sometimes up to 7 players at a time.
Does Fighter4 / Sorcerer1 / Dragon Disciple10 / ??? make good melee sense? Any other classes/Prc that he could take to help his melee?
Stats rolled were 13, 14, 17, 14, 15, 16 (we use 5d6, drop lowest 2).
Many thanks for any help.
If draconic flavor is what you seek, Dragonfire Adepts are what's up. Dragon Magic.
Dragon Disciple is like shooting ones self in the foot. It's always an option, but I don't suggest you go through with it. Try... Anything else. You'll be better off.
If draconic flavor is what you seek, Dragonfire Adepts are what's up. Dragon Magic.
Hmmm... is that because Dragon Disciple doesn't get a full BAB progression? They get eventual +3 Natural AC, +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence and Blindsense. I thought those boosts might help in the long run, especially if I go Fighter4 / SorcererX / Dragon Disciple10 / PrC X ..... I thought I'd have at least 5 levels of another class or PrC to help out his melee capabilities after finishing Dragon Disciple.
I'm not familiar with Dragonfire Adepts....what book are they in?
Thanks!
Dragon Descendant - monk is the best way to meet prereqs, it's from Dragon Magic and you basically summon the spirits of your draconic ancestors to give you abilities
Dragon Devotee - gains Draconic Creature temple, from Races of the Dragon
If you really want to go Dragon Disciple, a flavorful way would be to go any Full BAB 5/ Dragon Devotee 5/ Dragon Disciple 10.
The draconic template doesn't actually turn your type into dragon, so you can still take Dragon Disciple. Dragon Devotee gives you two levels of sorcerer casting even if you don't have sorcerer casting, and you have no ASF with first or second level spells. All in all a fairly flavorful build.
Human
Hexblade 4 (from Complete Warrior)
Fighter 1
Dragon Disciple 10
Exotic Weaponmaster 1 (Complete Warrior)
any full BAB class/PrC 4
That way, you get full BAB, mettle, a familiar, and 1 trick with your weapon (I would suggest either take Spiked Chain and Flurry with it, or Bastardsword and get 2x Str to damage with it) on top of your Dragon Disciple stuff.
By the way, Dragon Disciple gives you +4 natural AC, +8 Str, +2 Con/Int/Cha, wings, claw and bite attacks, breath weapon, some immunities and enhanced vision, not the ones you listed above.
Other PrCs with good draconic ancestry flavor:
Dragon Descendant - monk is the best way to meet prereqs, it's from Dragon Magic and you basically summon the spirits of your draconic ancestors to give you abilities
Dragon Devotee - gains Draconic Creature temple, from Races of the Dragon
If you really want to go Dragon Disciple, a flavorful way would be to go any Full BAB 5/ Dragon Devotee 5/ Dragon Disciple 10.
The draconic template doesn't actually turn your type into dragon, so you can still take Dragon Disciple. Dragon Devotee gives you two levels of sorcerer casting even if you don't have sorcerer casting, and you have no ASF with first or second level spells. All in all a fairly flavorful build.
Okay, I will search for those sourcebooks and see if the DM wants to allow them (usually, he is wary of allowing too many sources for character creation.....).
Thanks!
Besides that take every single feat with a flat combat bonus plus combat expertise. For gear gold should go 2 parts AC, 1 part weapon, 1 part str/con boosters. Get boots of speed ASAP. Go SHF or get an animated shield and go THF. See sig for more info. If you must go THF w/o an animated shield, it won't be fully optimized but it'll still be good. Same with the early/extra DD dips. Fun is always more important than tweaking.
Stats: Str 17, Con 16, Int at least 13, w/e for the rest. Pump str every 4 levels.
Actually, you might want to try this build:
Human
Hexblade 4 (from Complete Warrior)
Fighter 1
Dragon Disciple 10
Exotic Weaponmaster 1 (Complete Warrior)
any full BAB class/PrC 4
That way, you get full BAB, mettle, a familiar, and 1 trick with your weapon (I would suggest either take Spiked Chain and Flurry with it, or Bastardsword and get 2x Str to damage with it) on top of your Dragon Disciple stuff.
By the way, Dragon Disciple gives you +4 natural AC, +8 Str, +2 Con/Int/Cha, wings, claw and bite attacks, breath weapon, some immunities and enhanced vision, not the ones you listed above.
Wow...I totally forgot about Hexblade. That's a nice build idea! The Bastard Sword and Exotic Weapon trick of 2X damage adds a nice bit of punishment
And thanks for the correction on the specifics regarding Dragon Disciple - - I was going on the details that my DM had recalled off the top of his head when I last talked to him.
Yes, I was meticulously optimizing fighters a long time ago and the dragon disciple is the #1 best core option for a strong fighter.
Better than the Half-Dragon template and seven levels of some other class?
take every single feat with a flat combat bonus
Anti-optimizing ain't kind. You're in the wrong forum.
Better than the Half-Dragon template and seven levels of some other class?
In core, I'd think so. Actually having hit dice is a pretty big deal for a combat type -- plus it's a lot more playable 1-20 than sticking on a +3LA template.
Barbarian2/Fighter1/Bard7/DragonDisciple10 or Barbarian5/Bard7/DD8 both work well in core.
Half-Celestial Human
Hexblade 4/Fighter 1/DD10/EWM 1
Just for fun, you understand. And since BAB doesn't actually stop until you get 20HD (not ECL 20, funnily enough, and it doesn't stop for HD, just class levels), add another 4 levels of Greenstar Adept to it will net you a total of:
BAB 16
+14 Str
+6 Cha/Con
+4 Int/Wis
+2 Dex
+7 natural AC
DR 4/adamantine
Fly speed = 2x base land speed
claw & bite attacks
vision option
spell-like abilities
etc.
Again, this is not powerful, but fun to pull off
Better than the Half-Dragon template and seven levels of some other class?
I only checked the various monster races. I didn't check the templates. But I will say most of the monster races with LA/HD weren't worth it, except grimlock and lizardfolk. I even checked giants and the minotaur, plus some other suggestions people made. Goliath (non-core) tested much better than the core races in my sig. But I only checked basic combat ability not special attacks, reach, etc. Someone also suggested some funky 2-non-core-templated goliath that beat everything. I have a computer program to do careful calcs for all ideas. If you really think a half-dragon can do much better in simple combat only (ignoring other advantages), let me know and if I have some time I can check it out. I will say having an AB bonus (str + BAB + etc.) at least equal to its HD+LA helps a lot. So does con. I know simple combat isn't everything, but I can't test everything; that's up to the player to decide for his campaign, etc.
Or, you know, Barbarian 20?
Yes, but I did find that a barbarian dip helped in certain circumstances. But not if you need to evenly divide rages across 4 encounters per day. In that case weapon spec, etc. is worth more. If only 1 of the encounters matters, then a 1 level dip into barbarian is optimal (much better than all fighter). If 2 encounters matter, dipping into more barb (for more rage) is just a hair better than pure fighter. For 3+ you're screwed. Barbarian 20 is worse for levels 1-19. I think greater rage made it a hair better at level 20, but I don't remember. Again, I only tested combat ability so that str bonus may be better for grappling, etc. Not to mention uncanny dodge.
A better build would be:
Human
Hexblade 4 (from Complete Warrior)
Fighter 1
Dragon Disciple 10
Exotic Weaponmaster 1 (Complete Warrior)
Green Star Adept 4 (Complete Arcane)
BAB 16
+10 Str
+2 Con/Int/Cha
-1 Dex
DR 4/adamantine
6 levels of Hexblade casting, CL 8
etc.
In core, I'd think so. Actually having hit dice is a pretty big deal for a combat type -- plus it's a lot more playable 1-20 than sticking on a +3LA template.
Barbarian2/Fighter1/Bard7/DragonDisciple10 or Barbarian5/Bard7/DD8 both work well in core.
What makes HD better than LA? More specifically, what makes Bard 7/Dragon Disciple 10 better than the Half-Dragon template at +3 LA?
I only checked the various monster races. I didn't check the templates.
I find it odd that you didn't check a class that grants a template against the template it grants.
Full BAB 6/Suel Arcanamach 4/Abjurant Champion 5/DD 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1 is a simple and effective build, if not uber powerful. Use EWM for Uncanny blow with maximum effectiveness.
Even better than that is possibly Bard 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Chameleon 8/DD 4. That's a +8 Str. The bonus spells obviously go to your Chamaleon casting. 2 wf'ing is good with Combat Focus from Chameleon, but you'll be fine with a bastard sword and uncanny blow instead. You'll be a very effective secondary caster with this build, and you'll be a melee monster with some skill points. Any Bard 1/Full BAB 4 will do fine for entry levels. Solid, versatile build.
Or you may go Changeling instead and get 2 levels of Warshaper for an extra +4 Str (and +4 Con to boot) on top of all that. That's a total of +12 str; +16 when raging if that's the case. Works wonderfully with uncanny blow as well ;) . However, from the likes of it, Changeling doesn't sound very fit for what you're aiming for. I mean, a draconic changeling?
Changeling
Rogue 1 (Sub level)/ Hexblade 4/ Monk 1/ Dragon Disciple 10/ Warshaper 4
Get all your iterative attacks thanks to the level of Monk, as your natural attacks. Boost STR>CON>CHA>INT>WIS, max Intimidate. If you'd prefer, you could make it the Feat Rogue variant... 1d6 sneak attack isn't important damage.
Hexblade... It could work, but I'm not so fond of it for DD. Wouldn't Duskblade be better anyway?
Full BAB 6/Suel Arcanamach 4/Abjurant Champion 5/DD 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1
Okay, I like this build. Duskblade might be a good entry; Combat Casting for free, and not much overlap with the Arcanamach spell list. Paladin could be nice too, for the Charisma synergy.
(And to anyone who got the wrong idea: I wasn't trying to put down the Dragon Disciple. I was seriously wondering whether it was actually better than the Half-Dragon template.)
If your DM likes the flavour, he might be willing to work with you to get rid of some of the suck:
Ask him to exchange the breath weapon for a spell-like Dragon Breath (CD) with CL=HD, a save based on con, at least 2x/day, and a fixed energy type. That way it won't be a one-shot/day, which is just bad. Then get one metamagic feat for that SLA, quicken may be best so you can blast and then hit them hard. It won't be a killer, d8/2HD is nothing fantastic, but at least it will be flavour that WORKS. Clerics and wizsorcs get this stuff at level 9, and no full caster in his right mind will get this spell.
Alternative, just remove the 1/day descriptor from the breath weapon, and make it something like 4/day.
Ask him to give at least 5/10 casting progression, better yet 7/10, OR full BAB.
Ask him to give those wings speed 60', fly 30' is serioulsy hampered.
If he asks why, show him any gish build, any cleric build, any druid build who can do so much more with spells than the DD, even with only core.
And one more thing: If you've got BAB trouble, but can cast 4th level spells, the Arcane Disciple (War) route is never wrong. You'll need 14 wis to cast Divine Power. There is also another domain to grant both Divine Power and Divine Favour, but I don't remember the name.
I'd suggest you work on those natural attacks as well. Flurry + Bite + Claw + Claw. Some sort of Monk / Fighter / Arcanamach / Dragon Disciple. Feats like Multiattack aren't horrible, as would be Draconic Tail, etc.
If you can use Races of the Dragon and/or Draconomicon, let us know.
Bard4/Pal4/DD7/AC4/SS1
or
Sorc4/Pal4/DD7/AC4/SS1
Then optimizing around Cha and my favorite spell Whirling Blade. Pal4 nets you Turn Undead, which powers Divine Might, along with Divine Grace, always a nice class feature, and a 1st level paladin spell (Rhino's Rush is good, Lessor Restoration also good, Bless Weapon too). Sorc/Bard4 gets you the 2nd level spell you need (Whirling Blade), with later progression in AC and SS netting up to up to 4th level spells. DD wings lends to Flyby Attacking with a Whirling Blade, ensuring that you can always line up your foes strategically. If you swap out the SS level with EWM, you can use a Bastard Sword for 2x str to make use of the nice DD strength bumps. You end up with Str and Cha and 2:1 PA providing most of your damage, which is nice since DD increases your Str and Cha primarily.
Any thoughts on this?
What makes HD better than LA? More specifically, what makes Bard 7/Dragon Disciple 10 better than the Half-Dragon template at +3 LA?
I find it odd that you didn't check a class that grants a template against the template it grants.
I have checked. Lots of times. This question comes up about every 6-8 months. I just didn't show the math this time. Don't feel like showing it now, either -- you're free to do a search, of course.
The HD vs. LA issue, to me, is so obvious it doesn't need math. Hit Dice give you HP, skill points, feats and level-adjusted ability boosts. Level Adjustments don't. Half-Dragon costs you a good 15 HP, your 18th level feat and probably 6-10 skill points.
Level adjustments are also a lot harder to work into a playable 1-20 build. If you're starting at high level (16+), the +3LA is acceptable (though I'd much prefer to spend it on something better than Half-Dragon.) but at level 7-10 it's murder.
Suel Arcanamach's a good choice; I'd forgotten that one. Here are a couple others.
Bard8/Fighter1/Spellsword3/DragonDisciple8
BAB +16
Saves: 13/9/15
HD: 8d6+1d10+3d8+8d12 = 92 (+ 40 Con boost)
Standard melee attack: +16 base + 4 str (assumes 14 base) = +20
Boosted melee attack: +16 base +4 str + 4 Cha (snowflake wardance) + 4 Inspire Courage (w/song of the heart, inspirational boost) = 28
Neat Trick attack: Full Attack at Boosted-level with Arcane strike for another +8 attack and +4d4 damage per strike.
Extra goodies: Bardic knowledge, skills, Bardic song helps EVERYBODY in party, 4th level spells.
Hexblade3/Fighter2/Ranger1/SuelArcanamach4/DragonDisciple10
BAB 16
Saves: 14/10/14 + Mettle
Gets 3rd level spells, Tenacious Spells, Dispelling Strike
Bah, just realized that Sadism's enchantment and hence not kosher for Suel Arcs. It is on the Assassin list, though:
Ranger1/Fighter2/Barbarian2/Assassin4/Spellsword1/DragonDisciple10
BAB 16
Saves: 18/9/11
Gets 3rd level Assassin spells, sneak attack +2d6
I had forgotten about the use of Bard to get into Dragon Disciple; our last group had a Bard and she was really invaluable in buffing the group, so Bard8/Fighter1/Spellsword3/DragonDisciple8 seems interesting as well.
And yes, he really does want to stick to core books (not including PHB2) and the Complete books only.
Dragon dudes without Draconomicon, Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon are somewhat limited
Okay, then I will at least ask the DM to allow Races of the Dragon, since one of the guys that wants to run a gnome barbarian (!!!) has asked to be able to use Races of Stone.
Thanks!
What it does is allow you to make a 'draconic' character to start. From there, your level 2 is your 'draconic' template, giving you a host of abilities, and +2 to three attributes. You may then advance however far as you like. Whenever you wish, you may develop your draconic abilities further. From that point, you're going to take the last two levels of the 'racial' class, which makes you a half dragon. Dont forget to get a Dragon Spirit Cincture, and the Dragon Breath feat in Races of the Dragon, which allows you to breath every 1d4 rounds once you get 6HD.
Barbarian is good if you snag Extra rage - you dont always have to rage, it's really there to just get stuff in gear. Combat Brute, Power attack, Shock trooper, and Leap attack will make you a combat -monster-, able to leap in and do tremendous opening damage, and follow through with similarly harmful power attacks. Everything listed is in a Complete (Warrior, adventurer), or in Races of the Dragon.
EDIT: If you are worried about level adjustment, try to see if you can buy it off via Unearthed arcana, where you effectively pay XP for your LA over the course of several levels. a +3 LA can be bought off at levels 9, 15, and 18 (class levels accrued).
You have to complete a racial class before going on with your other classes. At the end of the progression, at level 4, you are still a level 1 whatever. That makes you extremely fragile, and you will stay that way for a while. This is the main argument against the half-dragon template at low levels.
Not so with the Draconic racial class presented in Races of the Dragon.
At level 1 you are a normal dude with say, +2 Intimidate and +2 Spot. At level two you MUST take 'draconic' and gain the benefits of that template. From there (by the book) you can wait, level a bit, and then take the next level towards half dragon. If you take that next level, you must complete the progression all the way to half dragon.
Not so with the Draconic racial class presented in Races of the Dragon.
At level 1 you are a normal dude with say, +2 Intimidate and +2 Spot. At level two you MUST take 'draconic' and gain the benefits of that template. From there (by the book) you can wait, level a bit, and then take the next level towards half dragon. If you take that next level, you must complete the progression all the way to half dragon.
No. They put two templates into one progression: Draconic Creature and Half-Dragon. Note that you do not get claws early if you are headed for HD Template, but you do for DC Template. In other words, if you stop at level 2 (DC Template) and get the claws, you stop for life. If you don't (HD Template), you don't get the claws and must finish the progression.
It is an absolutely stupid way of putting things, the way they did, but there you go.
No. They put two templates into one progression: Draconic Creature and Half-Dragon. Note that you do not get claws early if you are headed for HD Template, but you do for DC Template. In other words, if you stop at level 2 (DC Template) and get the claws, you stop for life. If you don't (HD Template), you don't get the claws and must finish the progression.
It is an absolutely stupid way of putting things, the way they did, but there you go.
The way I am reading it, it says 'Anytime after level 2 when you decide to improve your draconic traits, you must sacrifice that level and the next one to finish out the progression'
You also dont have to choose if you want to stop at Draconic or Half dragon in the progression. Reread page 76, as it pretty much proves you can take ac ouple of levels, THEN finish out all the way to half dragon.
The way I am reading it, it says 'Anytime after level 2 when you decide to improve your draconic traits, you must sacrifice that level and the next one to finish out the progression'
You also dont have to choose if you want to stop at Draconic or Half dragon in the progression. Reread page 76, as it pretty much proves you can take ac ouple of levels, THEN finish out all the way to half dragon.
To me, that doesn't make sense. It should work like any other racial progression. I'm AFB at the moment, so I will take your word at it. At the risk of repeating myself, that is just weird.
To me, that doesn't make sense. It should work like any other racial progression. I'm AFB at the moment, so I will take your word at it. At the risk of repeating myself, that is just weird.
It's definitely pretty weird, and I read it several times myself to make sure that's what it said. Though it bears mentioning, once you have that level adjustment, you could -technically- buy it off at character level 3 (which any sane DM would disallow if you plan on taking the other two levels later) or if you bought it off, then you couldnt advance further (since it wouldnt be the full LA)
Anyhow, look into it when you get the chance.
I find it odd that you didn't check a class that grants a template against the template it grants.
Heh, good point. But it might have been because DD was one of the last things I came up with before I stopped doing fighter builds. Maybe I ran out of time. Maybe I thought templates were cheese. I don't remember.
Well, let's see:
+4 AC
+8 str
+2 con
LA 3
The str and con minus the LA is enough to break even with most good races, while the +4 AC puts him over the top. That's assuming you apply it to human. Apply it to a good LA 0 race and it's really crazy. Well whaddya know, bing. I don't have time to run it through my program, but it looks like it would be much better than other non-templated races. In combat it should still even with DD b/c DD loses 3 points of BAB but a half dragon loses the same to the LA. Except 7 levels in another class would give special abilities, not just a d12HD and good BAB. So the half dragon comes out ahead.
The main advantage DD seems to grant over the template is that it gives you wings at 9th lv. So it is really up to you to decide if that extra 3HD and wings is worth the loss of 7 other class lvs of lost features.
For example, instead of a fighter4/sorc1/DD10, you could be a fighter12 with the half-dragon template. There are obviously pros and cons to either combination.
20HD
Gray Elf(+2 Dex,+2 Int,-2 Str,-2 Con)
Duskblade 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragon Disciple 10
BAB 17
base Spells per day = [indent]6 @0-lvl
8 @1st lvl
7 @2nd lvl
10 @3rd lvl ... assuming you add the bonus fron DD to these[/indent]
great Caster level ..... ok Abilities .... but i would rather take the 1/2 Dragon Template ... like this:
17HD
1/2 Dragon Gray Elf
Duskblade 17
BAB +17
Base Spells per day[indent]6 @0-lvl
10 @1st lvl
9 @2nd lvl
8 @3rd lvl
6 @4th lvl
2 @5th lvl[/indent]
Arcane Channeling full attack
Spell power +4
:D
Bard 1/Fighter 4/Barbarian 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Fighter 2/Frenzied Berserker 2
Basically using Bard for obvious reasons, plus I like the long shot Bardic Knowledge checks... :D
The focus of the build, of course, is melee. As mentioned, Dragon Disciple does exactly jack for progression of your caster abilities. If PHB2 was allowed, I'd go whole heartedly with the Duskblade, but, alas, it is not.
First 4 levels of Fighter gives you tons of bonus feats, for which I used them to focus on getting up to Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack as quickly as possible.
One level of Barbarian solely for the AFC in Complete Champions to change out the +10 ft movement speed for Pounce. Way amazing, love to get this whenever possible.
Then, of course, jump into Dragon Disciple.
The last 2 levels of Fighter grant you another bonus feat (plus good martial progression of BAB) to let you finish out the remaining feats necessary to get into Frenzied Berserker (i.e.: 18th lvl you have your normal feat and your fighter bonus feat, both spent towards destructive rage and intimidating rage).
Then, of course, you have your Frenzied Berserker levels.
If you start with the 17 in STR, put all 5 lvl bumps into it, along with the Tome that gives another +5 bonus to Str (eventually), a gauntlets of Str +6, and a cloak of Righteous Might command word activated as cast by a 15th lvl caster, you end up with (at 20th) a Str of: 49. You rage+frenzy to get that up to 59. Granted, you can only do that once per day, but you save that for the big baddy.
Use a Scythe, with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improv. Crit, and Power Attack w/Cleave. Charge first group of foes (don't forget your large with 10ft reach), first activating boots of speed. Leap attack for 1:4 (or 1:3 depending upon what source your looking at, if your DM is a little hesitant, 1:3 ain't bad still) while Power Attacking for your full BAB (at lvl 20: +16) using Shock Trooper. So you have: 2d6 (sizing adamantium scythe, w/Ghost touch, Vicious, Collision, and +5 enhancement) +2d6(vicious) +5(collision) +5(enhancement) +28(str non-rage, non-frenzy) +48(leap attack) = 2d6+2d6+86. Crits for x4 on a 19-20. A crit gives you: 8d6+2d6+344. Yeah, ouchy!
Your full attack, thanks to pounce: +43/+43/+38/+33/+28.
If you can't take down the bady, you probably just needed to make sure to rage+frenzy before charging (note: activate magical items like boots first!).
Of course, if you haven't taken them all down within a 10 ft spread of your final spot after the charge and your not rage+frenzy, simply activate your Belt of Battle for another full round attack action.
Have to say, you'll be pretty buff hp wise (not to mention that your 2nd highest stat should probably go into Con along with at least a +6 shirt of Con) due to Con modifier and the nice hd that go with fighter, barbarian, dragon disciple, and frenzied berserker. Plus assuming max hps for first lvls class, you get the max hp for the bard lvl. Thus, if anything is still around, I usually don't care that my AC was dropped by -18 (-16 shock trooper, -2 charge). I can routinely easily survive anything that attacks me.
Gotta tell ya, very few things stop my character, and I'm only lvl 15 right now. If I charge something, it usually dies quickly, along with anything near it. I now have wings at lvl 15 (9 DD). My character, while raging, critted and killed an ancient red wyrm (character's rp is "templar/defender" of Bahamut and his followers, party has a dragon-born cleric of Bahamut, my character was sent to protect and help defeat evil wyrms).
I have another mix that uses Dragon Disciple with Green Star Metal Adept, but that build definitely needs Duskblade, and it doesn't reach 10th lvl in either of those PrC (7 GSMA, 8 DD). That character is mostly for rp fun anyway, but he is very similar to this one, just a little more fun on the spell casting side of things with the Duskblade.
Sigh...too bad he doesn't allow you to play with the PHB2 stuff...
DD is also okay after finishing off the progression of a PrC with a self contained spellcasting list like an assassin or seul arcamach. for example ranger6/assassin10/DD4 for a core-only build.
:D