Dragonborn of Bahamut question regarding movement - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dragonborn of Bahamut question regarding movement

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
j2.504
Sep 27, 2010 14:40:35 Let's say my character starts as Raptoran (Races of the Wild), then immediately takes the Dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon).

I have a question regarding what happens to his flight capability. Here's why:

A raptoran's flight capabilty gradually increases as the character's HD increase.

If you take Dragonborn, you retain the base creatures movement modes, but lose any special abilities beyond the movement mode (such as a dwarf's ability to move at full speed in heavier armor).

Additionally, you generally lose most other special abilities that the base race grants like supernatural abilities, etc. (movement mode being an exception)

What happens if you haven't attained the maximum capability of the Raptoran flight, before taking Dragonborn?

1) Does your "flight" capability lock in place, and advance no further, or...
2) Does your flight capability (which is based on HD) continue to advance as you advance as a Dragonborn?

BTW, I'm the DM, so this is a ruling question to see if there is more info to go by. I'd be inclined to rule for #2, but I'm wondering if there is a precadence that would help me make my decision.

Thoughts?
#2
lycanthrope0
Sep 27, 2010 17:24:48
i would think they have to take the wings aspect to not lock them as they were set before.

and all though a clever way to gain the benefits of 2 aspects from bahamut i dont think i would allow it
#3
j2.504
Sep 28, 2010 16:52:23

i would think they have to take the wings aspect to not lock them as they were set before.

and all though a clever way to gain the benefits of 2 aspects from bahamut i dont think i would allow it

That's a good point, and one way to look at it.

The reason I lean the other way is this: Had the player played as a Raptoran until they achieved full flight, then they could just pay 100gp, and also attain full power for the "second" aspect of Bahamut simultaneously.

The other reason, is I don't want to penalize a player who takes a raptoran (who is essentially a weak race but for the flight), when the same player could have taken any humanoid burrowing/swimming or full flight race in it's place, then taken the Dragonborn while retaining the full movement of whatever race they had chosen.

I'm definitely open to any thoughts on this, however, so other ideas/arguments are welcome.
#4
phaedrusxy
Sep 29, 2010 9:14:43 They should "stack" just fine. You still have the movement mode of a raptoran. The movement mode of a raptoran advances with HD. Ergo, your movement mode advances with hit dice. I don't think the advancement is a separate ability.

Also, like you said, Raptoran is actually a pretty crappy race. Anyway, even without being a Raptoran, you can get more than one "aspect" with a dragonborn by taking something beside wings, and then taking the Dragon Wings feat.
#5
lycanthrope0
Sep 29, 2010 16:20:00 while a good point. Phaedrus another suggestion then is to have them take the feat as well to advance the flight
#6
j2.504
Sep 29, 2010 19:32:26
The Dragon Wings feat, unfortunately doesn't provide normal flight, (allows glide and improved jumping instead) but it is a good feat to consider.

The HD thing is the primary reason I figured your wings would continue to improve, essentially what PhaedrusXY said.

Here's another related question:

1) Would the improved jump "Wing Aided Movement" (due to the wings) remain after becoming Dragonborn?

2) What about gliding? Gliding has addional effects such as limiting falling damage, etc.

3) Is gliding technically considered a mode of movement? I imagine it is, because I believe there are races that can only glide, and not fly.

For Raptoran, Flight, and Gliding are listed as extraordinary abilities. Gliding is a separate ability from flight in the Raptoran entry. Wing Aided Movement doesn't specify what type of ability it is, but does get it's own entry/paragraph.

Dragonborn states you do get to keep your speed and movement modes. However you lose "other racial traits related to speed or movement" like a dwarf's ability to carry a heavier load at full speed, etc.

At the moment, I'm leaning toward allowing flight and glide to continue to accrue with HD after the transformation, but losing the Wing Aided Movement - but still working through this.

#7
phaedrusxy
Oct 01, 2010 15:12:55
The Dragon Wings feat, unfortunately doesn't provide normal flight, (allows glide and improved jumping instead) but it is a good feat to consider.

You have to take the Improved version to upgrade it.
#8
j2.504
Oct 01, 2010 16:25:24
The Dragon Wings feat, unfortunately doesn't provide normal flight, (allows glide and improved jumping instead) but it is a good feat to consider.

You have to take the Improved version to upgrade it.

Ahhh - missed that. Good point.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 j2.504 Sep 27, 2010 14:40:35	Let's say my character starts as Raptoran (Races of the Wild), then immediately takes the Dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon). I have a question regarding what happens to his flight capability. Here's why: A raptoran's flight capabilty gradually increases as the character's HD increase. If you take Dragonborn, you retain the base creatures movement modes, but lose any special abilities beyond the movement mode (such as a dwarf's ability to move at full speed in heavier armor). Additionally, you generally lose most other special abilities that the base race grants like supernatural abilities, etc. (movement mode being an exception) What happens if you haven't attained the maximum capability of the Raptoran flight, before taking Dragonborn? 1) Does your "flight" capability lock in place, and advance no further, or... 2) Does your flight capability (which is based on HD) continue to advance as you advance as a Dragonborn? BTW, I'm the DM, so this is a ruling question to see if there is more info to go by. I'd be inclined to rule for #2, but I'm wondering if there is a precadence that would help me make my decision. Thoughts?
#2 lycanthrope0 Sep 27, 2010 17:24:48	i would think they have to take the wings aspect to not lock them as they were set before. and all though a clever way to gain the benefits of 2 aspects from bahamut i dont think i would allow it
#3 j2.504 Sep 28, 2010 16:52:23	i would think they have to take the wings aspect to not lock them as they were set before. and all though a clever way to gain the benefits of 2 aspects from bahamut i dont think i would allow it That's a good point, and one way to look at it. The reason I lean the other way is this: Had the player played as a Raptoran until they achieved full flight, then they could just pay 100gp, and also attain full power for the "second" aspect of Bahamut simultaneously. The other reason, is I don't want to penalize a player who takes a raptoran (who is essentially a weak race but for the flight), when the same player could have taken any humanoid burrowing/swimming or full flight race in it's place, then taken the Dragonborn while retaining the full movement of whatever race they had chosen. I'm definitely open to any thoughts on this, however, so other ideas/arguments are welcome.
#4 phaedrusxy Sep 29, 2010 9:14:43	They should "stack" just fine. You still have the movement mode of a raptoran. The movement mode of a raptoran advances with HD. Ergo, your movement mode advances with hit dice. I don't think the advancement is a separate ability. Also, like you said, Raptoran is actually a pretty crappy race. Anyway, even without being a Raptoran, you can get more than one "aspect" with a dragonborn by taking something beside wings, and then taking the Dragon Wings feat.
#5 lycanthrope0 Sep 29, 2010 16:20:00	while a good point. Phaedrus another suggestion then is to have them take the feat as well to advance the flight
#6 j2.504 Sep 29, 2010 19:32:26	The Dragon Wings feat, unfortunately doesn't provide normal flight, (allows glide and improved jumping instead) but it is a good feat to consider. The HD thing is the primary reason I figured your wings would continue to improve, essentially what PhaedrusXY said. Here's another related question: 1) Would the improved jump "Wing Aided Movement" (due to the wings) remain after becoming Dragonborn? 2) What about gliding? Gliding has addional effects such as limiting falling damage, etc. 3) Is gliding technically considered a mode of movement? I imagine it is, because I believe there are races that can only glide, and not fly. For Raptoran, Flight, and Gliding are listed as extraordinary abilities. Gliding is a separate ability from flight in the Raptoran entry. Wing Aided Movement doesn't specify what type of ability it is, but does get it's own entry/paragraph. Dragonborn states you do get to keep your speed and movement modes. However you lose "other racial traits related to speed or movement" like a dwarf's ability to carry a heavier load at full speed, etc. At the moment, I'm leaning toward allowing flight and glide to continue to accrue with HD after the transformation, but losing the Wing Aided Movement - but still working through this.
#7 phaedrusxy Oct 01, 2010 15:12:55	The Dragon Wings feat, unfortunately doesn't provide normal flight, (allows glide and improved jumping instead) but it is a good feat to consider. You have to take the Improved version to upgrade it.
#8 j2.504 Oct 01, 2010 16:25:24	The Dragon Wings feat, unfortunately doesn't provide normal flight, (allows glide and improved jumping instead) but it is a good feat to consider. You have to take the Improved version to upgrade it. Ahhh - missed that. Good point.