Dragonborn Raptoran Dragonfire Adept build - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dragonborn Raptoran Dragonfire Adept build

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
chimerus
Jan 08, 2009 21:18:51 Saw this in a thread, thought it sounded pretty cool. Could anybody help flesh out the build up to say lvl 10? the way my dm runs, campaigns don't usually go past that.
#2
NiteCyper
Jan 08, 2009 21:41:54 Please check out JanusJones's 'Dragonfire Adept Handbook' thread in SHCOL. I just read it recently, and it was awesome! I advise against having Raptoran as the base race. You're going to gain flight eventually either from Dragonborn or Dragonfire Adept so I don't think it's worth the +1 level adjustment. A similar build to yours is something I've heard Tleilaxu_Ghola (a veteran theoretical optimizer) play. It was a Warlock that used Fell Flight, the Dark template for Hide in Plain Sight, Flyby attack and preached about the usefulness of the obscure 'Wall of Gloom' invocation to cause its enemies to lose line of sight to him and his team-mates because his DM liked to throw charging fighters against them. It started off with a level of Scout too. Link. If you want to be stealthy, check out the 'Blend into Shadows' feat from Drow of the Underdark. If you start out as a (Whisper) Gnome, you can gain access to the Trivial Knowledge feat which is a godsend, apparently, in boosting Knowledge checks for Knowledge Devotion (feat from Complete Champion). It is beyond synergetic with the 'Draconic Knowledge' invocation that Dragonfire Adepts get! Whisper Gnomes are from Races of Stone. Edit: Probably really useful too. CO Diary involving a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Dragonfire Adept brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p....
#3
innabinder
Jan 08, 2009 21:47:15 Raptorans don't have a level adjustment.
#4
jenos
Jan 08, 2009 21:54:17 First off, Raptoran are +0 LA. I believe that there was a preview or something from RoTW that had them at +1 LA, but it was changed in publication.

I was under the impression that raptoran was a poor choice at level 1 from dragonborn transformation, being that dragonborn makes the wings unable to evolve into flight. The raptoran dragonborn build I'm aware of doesn't become a dragonborn until after level 5, meaning that the raptoran can already fly/glide, and as mentioned in the mechanics of the transofmration sidebar, "can keep all forms of movement he previously had".

I'm not sure what the RAW ruling is on that, but from what I can see it doesn't seem likely to retain flight potential at 5 HD at level 1, meaning theres little benefit to be a dragonborn raptoran.

That being said, just do a general dragonfire adept build for 10 levels. Entangling Exhalation, Entangling Exhalation, Entangling Exhalation...you get the idea =p.
#5
NiteCyper
Jan 08, 2009 22:08:42
Raptorans don't have a level adjustment.

*goes to confirm -> confirms* GLEE!
#6
chimerus
Jan 09, 2009 16:33:02 Oh I thought that because I get to keep the wings, they would improve as I lvl. Part of the reason to get dragonborn was to get the rounds/recharge breath weapon, as I remember reading some kind of controversy whether metabreath feats can be used on the DFA class breath. Also heard of a workaround using Power Surge (iirc) to do that, but Id like to keep it as legit as possible.

LOL that handbook is where I got the idea! would like some suggestions for starting stats, gear, stuff like that.
#7
jenos
Jan 09, 2009 17:22:51 Its debatable, to me at least(No idea if theres a FAQ or errata somewhere that answers it). The whole issue is if "Gains flight at 5 HD" is a racial trait that is tied to movement or part of the actual movement. I'd place it alongside things such as dwarven movespeed in armor, so it gets removed.

The whole raptoran angle is that you become a dragonborn at level 5, at which point you have an existing movement of Flying 40'(Average). Thats a specific form of movement, and dragonborning it up will cause it to remain, WHILE giving you a breath weapon(or darkvision, if thats your thing). In fact, there is the argument that doing the dragonborn transformation REMOVES your fatigue issues, giving you a flat 40'(Average) at level 5.

If your DM rules(Or someone brings out specific text to correct me) then raptoran can be a good choice, otherwise, theres little benefit to being raptoran.

That being said, the optimization of a dragonborn raptoran dragonfire adept is pretty much the same as the optimization of a dragonborn dragonfire adept at level 1.

I'm assuming dragonborn(heart) dragonfireadept, to ensure you can take metabreath feats(If your DM rules you don't need it, wings is probably useful, or mind if you spend most of your time in dungeons).

Still assuming dragonborn raptoran, you have +2 Con -2 Dex. I'd definitely say focus CON first, then CHA for that race. CON->CHA->INT->WIS/DEX->STR
The last really 4 are dump stats - I like int because with 4+int skill points, it helps. If you don't want to focus on skills, I'd say grab some dex to shore up your AC, or WIS if you want to boost your will save...but really its CON and CHA that matter. If you want to pick up the invocations with saves CHA matters more - but since you're starting at level 1, it can be some time to grab the good invocations with saves, and boosting your con will net you plenty of HP at level 1 in addition to boosting your level 1 save on your breath(Important for Entangling Exhalation).

The two invocations I'd pick up at levels 1 and 3 are Endure Exposure at level 1 and Magical Insight at level 3. You're not going to run into a lot of stuff that needs identifying before 3, and Endure Exposure makes your life SO much easier when you don't have to yell at the other players for not optimizing their position for you(Or the alternative, getting yelled at by other players for blasting them to bits). The skill invocations are useful, but I've always felt that these two invocations are too good to pass up(Endure Exposure is pretty much mandatory) but these are just my opinions, YMMV.

Feats at level 1: ENTANGLING EXHALATION. THE FEAT TO GET.
Further feats: I'm a fan of metabreath feats. There are tricks with clinging and lingering breath, I think the DFA handbook lists em. Ability focus is also nice, as it applies to all your DFA breaths. Flyby attack is also very nice once you can fly.

Items: Remember that all ACF does for you is hinder casting of invocations. Invocations like Endure Exposure are things you'll be casting out of combat - its fine if you have to cast it 4-5 times to affect 3 people. In addition, the ACP from armor will be applied to your attack roll...its a good thing breath attacks don't need em, eh? That being said, I honestly don't know how much gold dragonfire adepts get. I'm inclined to say 75gp, which means you probably want to spend 15gp on your useful adventurer items, and then maybe some studded leather armor, and a steel shield. That will net you 15+dex AC, not too shabby. Sure, you'll have an ACF of 30%, and an ACP of 3, but frankly you probably weren't going to doing a lot of jumping or hiding anyway. You could get scale mail, but 1 AC isn't worth losing 10' movement, at least to me. That'll leave you with like 20 gold for buying drinks or something.

Depending on what invocations you get, you could feasibly improve your armor. You don't need weapons, maybe a crossbow for something shooting at you from 65' across a chasm or something, but with line giving you range of 60', you shouldn't have a huge problem of getting in range.
#8
chimerus
Jan 10, 2009 14:54:36 Oo! pure flight at lvl 5, sweet!

Ok, found entangling breath in RoD, what does the entangle condition actually do?
#9
jenos
Jan 10, 2009 15:32:47 Note that taking the dragonborn at 5 for raptoran is simply one interpretation of how it functions - your DM could just as easily rule that since there is a limitation on flight, you don't get anything.

The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.

Absolutely devastating battlefield control ability at lower levels. Coupled with Endure Exposure, you can spam away with your breath weapon and keep foes permanently entangled, with no risk to your team.
#10
chimerus
Jan 10, 2009 22:38:07 hmm that's true. alright here's a trial build:

Raptoran DFA lvl 3, standard point buy (25), standard gp

STR:8
DEX:12
CON:16
INT:11
WIS:10
CHA:14

Feats: 1-Entangling Exhalation, 3-Power Surge
Invocations: 1-Endure Exposure

Equipment:
Mithril Chain Shirt (1,100)
Masterwork Dastana (325)
Heavy Darkwood Shield (257) (in DMG,dunno where from originally)
Dragonfang Dagger (302)
#11
jenos
Jan 11, 2009 0:35:14 The dastana is a waste, I believe. I don't have it, but I'm fairly certain the OA update in dragon made dastanas armor bonus not stack with regular armor, making it do nothing with the chainshirt. Also, if you're starting at level 1, swap the 11 in int and 8 in str with a 9 in str and 10 in int. There shouldn't be any need for 11 int, and that single strength will give you a couple more pounds to carry things - and its always nice if you don't have to worry about your encumberence at low levels.

If you're starting at level 1, I'd say go ahead and do the dragonborn transformation. That lets you free up your level 3 feat to do something else. Even if you don't want to take dragonborn until level 5(Because your DM rules that dragonborn transformation at 5 for raptoran gives you a flat 40'(average) or something) take ability focus(DFA Breath Weapon) at 3 and then use the Dragonborn breath weapon to qualify for metabreath feats.

I've never been a huge fan of power surge, but thats because I've always been able to skate by with dragonborn breath, and flying is gotten through other means. Its up to you though, you may find flight to be more important than a feat, in which case you can take power surge. My group doesn't really deal with flight all that much, mainly because our DM refuses to actually draw up a tactical map for flight, and its a pain to try and remember where you are in a 3d axis, so we just dont ever face flight expect when things escape, or enter.

Also, you have the pricing wrong for your dragonfang dagger. Its 602 gp, not 302gp. Its also a waste...why attack for (1d4-1)+1 damage at an attack bonus of +1, instead of breathing for 3d6? Its a waste of gold. Worry about a weapon later when you can afford to stick the defending bonus on it.
#12
chimerus
Jan 11, 2009 1:29:12 aw shucks. dont think my dm has that update tho... what do you think about the chainshirt itself? lvl 3 ive got 2700 gp to work with, and havent really spent much of it.

oh I can use ability focus to improve class abilities? thought it would only be natural spell like abilities.

ah, we dont have a tactical map. its a more narrative style of play.

oh at 602 gp it is totally not worth it. it was partially for thematic reasons.
#13
jenos
Jan 11, 2009 2:19:38 My point about flight was just to illustrate that my group doesn't put much stress on it - its can be a very powerful ability, and while I don't need it much because of who I play with, it changes depending on who you play with.

Ability Focus doesn't care where the spell-like(Or Supernatural, or Extraordinary) ability comes from, just that it is a special attack. This is evident if you read the description of warlock, in which it explicitly states that you can use ability focus on the spell-like ability eldritch blast granted through a class.

One of the more powerful aspects of DFA is that it is VERY item independant, mostly because there exists so few items that really make it better, outside of a small few. With your gold, you could get a couple things. I honestly wouldn't go for a mithril chainshirt...go for a regular one! Even with mithril you can't negate the ASF, and you're paying 1k for 1 less ACP...unless you're heavily investing in stealth skills I don't see that as a problem.

I would definitely pick up a mithril buckler, however. 1 less AC than a darkwood shield, but it gives no ACP or ASF, and can be enchanted later(Or even starting off with, if your DM lets you start off with an item that costs 2015 gold). A +1 Mithril Buckler has 2 AC, 0 ACP 0 ASF, weighs 2.5 lbs. I don't really know much about other shields though, so I'm sure you could find something else.

If you're going to make something mithril, either you desperately need the lessened ACP(Not so in your case) or you can make the ASF drop from some value to 0. If you're wearing a mithril chain shirt or a regular chainshirt, it doesn't matter. In either one, you won't risk using invocations. If you have your invocations planned out, though, and you know you won't ever be invoking in combat, then don't even waste your money on mithril. +1 Heavy Shield and +1 Chainshirt, total cost of 2265, gives you ACP of -2, ASF of 35%, AC of 18+other(In your level 3 DFA, it would be 21). Pretty good for a caster who's not proficient in any armor.

If you have UMD, you may want to pick up some wands(or eternal wands). With 2.7k, theres not a lot of rings or other items available to you, but peruse the MIC and see if any of the cheap consumables seem cool(I've always like the one that makes tree pop out of nowhere, great comedic value).

Also, I was mistaken about the dragonfang dagger. 302 is the correct price for a non-masterwork dagger, for some reason I assumed that it was masterwork.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 chimerus Jan 08, 2009 21:18:51	Saw this in a thread, thought it sounded pretty cool. Could anybody help flesh out the build up to say lvl 10? the way my dm runs, campaigns don't usually go past that.
#2 NiteCyper Jan 08, 2009 21:41:54	Please check out JanusJones's 'Dragonfire Adept Handbook' thread in SHCOL. I just read it recently, and it was awesome! I advise against having Raptoran as the base race. You're going to gain flight eventually either from Dragonborn or Dragonfire Adept so I don't think it's worth the +1 level adjustment. A similar build to yours is something I've heard Tleilaxu_Ghola (a veteran theoretical optimizer) play. It was a Warlock that used Fell Flight, the Dark template for Hide in Plain Sight, Flyby attack and preached about the usefulness of the obscure 'Wall of Gloom' invocation to cause its enemies to lose line of sight to him and his team-mates because his DM liked to throw charging fighters against them. It started off with a level of Scout too. Link. If you want to be stealthy, check out the 'Blend into Shadows' feat from Drow of the Underdark. If you start out as a (Whisper) Gnome, you can gain access to the Trivial Knowledge feat which is a godsend, apparently, in boosting Knowledge checks for Knowledge Devotion (feat from Complete Champion). It is beyond synergetic with the 'Draconic Knowledge' invocation that Dragonfire Adepts get! Whisper Gnomes are from Races of Stone. Edit: Probably really useful too. CO Diary involving a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Dragonfire Adept brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p....
#3 innabinder Jan 08, 2009 21:47:15	Raptorans don't have a level adjustment.
#4 jenos Jan 08, 2009 21:54:17	First off, Raptoran are +0 LA. I believe that there was a preview or something from RoTW that had them at +1 LA, but it was changed in publication. I was under the impression that raptoran was a poor choice at level 1 from dragonborn transformation, being that dragonborn makes the wings unable to evolve into flight. The raptoran dragonborn build I'm aware of doesn't become a dragonborn until after level 5, meaning that the raptoran can already fly/glide, and as mentioned in the mechanics of the transofmration sidebar, "can keep all forms of movement he previously had". I'm not sure what the RAW ruling is on that, but from what I can see it doesn't seem likely to retain flight potential at 5 HD at level 1, meaning theres little benefit to be a dragonborn raptoran. That being said, just do a general dragonfire adept build for 10 levels. Entangling Exhalation, Entangling Exhalation, Entangling Exhalation...you get the idea =p.
#5 NiteCyper Jan 08, 2009 22:08:42	Raptorans don't have a level adjustment. goes to confirm -> confirms GLEE!
#6 chimerus Jan 09, 2009 16:33:02	Oh I thought that because I get to keep the wings, they would improve as I lvl. Part of the reason to get dragonborn was to get the rounds/recharge breath weapon, as I remember reading some kind of controversy whether metabreath feats can be used on the DFA class breath. Also heard of a workaround using Power Surge (iirc) to do that, but Id like to keep it as legit as possible. LOL that handbook is where I got the idea! would like some suggestions for starting stats, gear, stuff like that.
#7 jenos Jan 09, 2009 17:22:51	Its debatable, to me at least(No idea if theres a FAQ or errata somewhere that answers it). The whole issue is if "Gains flight at 5 HD" is a racial trait that is tied to movement or part of the actual movement. I'd place it alongside things such as dwarven movespeed in armor, so it gets removed. The whole raptoran angle is that you become a dragonborn at level 5, at which point you have an existing movement of Flying 40'(Average). Thats a specific form of movement, and dragonborning it up will cause it to remain, WHILE giving you a breath weapon(or darkvision, if thats your thing). In fact, there is the argument that doing the dragonborn transformation REMOVES your fatigue issues, giving you a flat 40'(Average) at level 5. If your DM rules(Or someone brings out specific text to correct me) then raptoran can be a good choice, otherwise, theres little benefit to being raptoran. That being said, the optimization of a dragonborn raptoran dragonfire adept is pretty much the same as the optimization of a dragonborn dragonfire adept at level 1. I'm assuming dragonborn(heart) dragonfireadept, to ensure you can take metabreath feats(If your DM rules you don't need it, wings is probably useful, or mind if you spend most of your time in dungeons). Still assuming dragonborn raptoran, you have +2 Con -2 Dex. I'd definitely say focus CON first, then CHA for that race. CON->CHA->INT->WIS/DEX->STR The last really 4 are dump stats - I like int because with 4+int skill points, it helps. If you don't want to focus on skills, I'd say grab some dex to shore up your AC, or WIS if you want to boost your will save...but really its CON and CHA that matter. If you want to pick up the invocations with saves CHA matters more - but since you're starting at level 1, it can be some time to grab the good invocations with saves, and boosting your con will net you plenty of HP at level 1 in addition to boosting your level 1 save on your breath(Important for Entangling Exhalation). The two invocations I'd pick up at levels 1 and 3 are Endure Exposure at level 1 and Magical Insight at level 3. You're not going to run into a lot of stuff that needs identifying before 3, and Endure Exposure makes your life SO much easier when you don't have to yell at the other players for not optimizing their position for you(Or the alternative, getting yelled at by other players for blasting them to bits). The skill invocations are useful, but I've always felt that these two invocations are too good to pass up(Endure Exposure is pretty much mandatory) but these are just my opinions, YMMV. Feats at level 1: ENTANGLING EXHALATION. THE FEAT TO GET. Further feats: I'm a fan of metabreath feats. There are tricks with clinging and lingering breath, I think the DFA handbook lists em. Ability focus is also nice, as it applies to all your DFA breaths. Flyby attack is also very nice once you can fly. Items: Remember that all ACF does for you is hinder casting of invocations. Invocations like Endure Exposure are things you'll be casting out of combat - its fine if you have to cast it 4-5 times to affect 3 people. In addition, the ACP from armor will be applied to your attack roll...its a good thing breath attacks don't need em, eh? That being said, I honestly don't know how much gold dragonfire adepts get. I'm inclined to say 75gp, which means you probably want to spend 15gp on your useful adventurer items, and then maybe some studded leather armor, and a steel shield. That will net you 15+dex AC, not too shabby. Sure, you'll have an ACF of 30%, and an ACP of 3, but frankly you probably weren't going to doing a lot of jumping or hiding anyway. You could get scale mail, but 1 AC isn't worth losing 10' movement, at least to me. That'll leave you with like 20 gold for buying drinks or something. Depending on what invocations you get, you could feasibly improve your armor. You don't need weapons, maybe a crossbow for something shooting at you from 65' across a chasm or something, but with line giving you range of 60', you shouldn't have a huge problem of getting in range.
#8 chimerus Jan 10, 2009 14:54:36	Oo! pure flight at lvl 5, sweet! Ok, found entangling breath in RoD, what does the entangle condition actually do?
#9 jenos Jan 10, 2009 15:32:47	Note that taking the dragonborn at 5 for raptoran is simply one interpretation of how it functions - your DM could just as easily rule that since there is a limitation on flight, you don't get anything. The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. Absolutely devastating battlefield control ability at lower levels. Coupled with Endure Exposure, you can spam away with your breath weapon and keep foes permanently entangled, with no risk to your team.
#10 chimerus Jan 10, 2009 22:38:07	hmm that's true. alright here's a trial build: Raptoran DFA lvl 3, standard point buy (25), standard gp STR:8 DEX:12 CON:16 INT:11 WIS:10 CHA:14 Feats: 1-Entangling Exhalation, 3-Power Surge Invocations: 1-Endure Exposure Equipment: Mithril Chain Shirt (1,100) Masterwork Dastana (325) Heavy Darkwood Shield (257) (in DMG,dunno where from originally) Dragonfang Dagger (302)
#11 jenos Jan 11, 2009 0:35:14	The dastana is a waste, I believe. I don't have it, but I'm fairly certain the OA update in dragon made dastanas armor bonus not stack with regular armor, making it do nothing with the chainshirt. Also, if you're starting at level 1, swap the 11 in int and 8 in str with a 9 in str and 10 in int. There shouldn't be any need for 11 int, and that single strength will give you a couple more pounds to carry things - and its always nice if you don't have to worry about your encumberence at low levels. If you're starting at level 1, I'd say go ahead and do the dragonborn transformation. That lets you free up your level 3 feat to do something else. Even if you don't want to take dragonborn until level 5(Because your DM rules that dragonborn transformation at 5 for raptoran gives you a flat 40'(average) or something) take ability focus(DFA Breath Weapon) at 3 and then use the Dragonborn breath weapon to qualify for metabreath feats. I've never been a huge fan of power surge, but thats because I've always been able to skate by with dragonborn breath, and flying is gotten through other means. Its up to you though, you may find flight to be more important than a feat, in which case you can take power surge. My group doesn't really deal with flight all that much, mainly because our DM refuses to actually draw up a tactical map for flight, and its a pain to try and remember where you are in a 3d axis, so we just dont ever face flight expect when things escape, or enter. Also, you have the pricing wrong for your dragonfang dagger. Its 602 gp, not 302gp. Its also a waste...why attack for (1d4-1)+1 damage at an attack bonus of +1, instead of breathing for 3d6? Its a waste of gold. Worry about a weapon later when you can afford to stick the defending bonus on it.
#12 chimerus Jan 11, 2009 1:29:12	aw shucks. dont think my dm has that update tho... what do you think about the chainshirt itself? lvl 3 ive got 2700 gp to work with, and havent really spent much of it. oh I can use ability focus to improve class abilities? thought it would only be natural spell like abilities. ah, we dont have a tactical map. its a more narrative style of play. oh at 602 gp it is totally not worth it. it was partially for thematic reasons.
#13 jenos Jan 11, 2009 2:19:38	My point about flight was just to illustrate that my group doesn't put much stress on it - its can be a very powerful ability, and while I don't need it much because of who I play with, it changes depending on who you play with. Ability Focus doesn't care where the spell-like(Or Supernatural, or Extraordinary) ability comes from, just that it is a special attack. This is evident if you read the description of warlock, in which it explicitly states that you can use ability focus on the spell-like ability eldritch blast granted through a class. One of the more powerful aspects of DFA is that it is VERY item independant, mostly because there exists so few items that really make it better, outside of a small few. With your gold, you could get a couple things. I honestly wouldn't go for a mithril chainshirt...go for a regular one! Even with mithril you can't negate the ASF, and you're paying 1k for 1 less ACP...unless you're heavily investing in stealth skills I don't see that as a problem. I would definitely pick up a mithril buckler, however. 1 less AC than a darkwood shield, but it gives no ACP or ASF, and can be enchanted later(Or even starting off with, if your DM lets you start off with an item that costs 2015 gold). A +1 Mithril Buckler has 2 AC, 0 ACP 0 ASF, weighs 2.5 lbs. I don't really know much about other shields though, so I'm sure you could find something else. If you're going to make something mithril, either you desperately need the lessened ACP(Not so in your case) or you can make the ASF drop from some value to 0. If you're wearing a mithril chain shirt or a regular chainshirt, it doesn't matter. In either one, you won't risk using invocations. If you have your invocations planned out, though, and you know you won't ever be invoking in combat, then don't even waste your money on mithril. +1 Heavy Shield and +1 Chainshirt, total cost of 2265, gives you ACP of -2, ASF of 35%, AC of 18+other(In your level 3 DFA, it would be 21). Pretty good for a caster who's not proficient in any armor. If you have UMD, you may want to pick up some wands(or eternal wands). With 2.7k, theres not a lot of rings or other items available to you, but peruse the MIC and see if any of the cheap consumables seem cool(I've always like the one that makes tree pop out of nowhere, great comedic value). Also, I was mistaken about the dragonfang dagger. 302 is the correct price for a non-masterwork dagger, for some reason I assumed that it was masterwork.