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Dragonfire Assistance

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
DarkChipmunk
Mar 19, 2008 15:26:10 For starters, I've read the handbook, and I'm still a bit... confused.

I'm creating a Dragonfire Adept, starting at level 1 to be played to who knows how high level. Here's my plan. Note, I'm of good alignment, so Fivefold Breath is... probably not going to happen.

Whisper Gnome with pretty good stats. Skills maxed Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, UMD.

Build: Dragonfire Adept 12/Heir of Siberys 2/DFA +X

Feat plan:
Trait) Quick (I have a high enough Con that I won't miss the hp)
Flaw: Noncombatant) Ability Focus: Breath Weapon
1) Entangling Exhalation
3) Draconic Aura: Vigor
6) Extra Invocation?
9) Flyby Attack?
12) Heroic Spirit
15) Mark of Stars
18) Breath of Siberys

Breath Effects: Frost Breath, Slow Breath, Sleep Breath, Thunder Breath, Force Breath

Invocations: Magic Insight, Beguiling Influence, Charm, Draconic Flight (swap for ???), Chilling Fog, Baleful Geas, Greater Draconic Flight, Energy Immunity

I'm taking Heir early, since I really don't have Fivefold to look forward to, and I really want both Mark of Stars and Breath of Siberys. My level 6 and 9 feats are giving me severe trouble, and Draconic Aura: Vigor at level 3 is a strong possibility, but still up in the air. Perhaps Frightful Presence + Frightful Presence would be a useful thing to try? Humanoid Form is, for various reasons, not an option.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious. The character is going for a combination of out-of-combat Social ability and in-combat battlefield control/crowd control. My first acquisition of a magic item *will* be the Cincture, no contest.

Thank you.
#2
DarkChipmunk
Mar 20, 2008 5:57:56 The reason I'm posting this to ask for help is that... frankly there's a LOT of information in the Handbook, and it is very difficult to know just what fits. There are a lot of things I don't quite see the practical value of, such as a number of the Metabreath feats. I could be wrong, of course, and probably am.

The more I look at it, the more I think I want to retrain out Sense Motive for Intimidate so I can pick up Frightful Presence feat at level 6. Round 1: Slow + Shaken; Round 2: Damaged + Entangled. Later, rinse, repeat.

For some reason those ranks in UMD are making me feel weird. I very rarely use charged items I find, opting to purchase continuous items instead, which rearely ever need UMD. I know it's a powerful skill, but I don't think it fits well with my style of play. I'll probably retrain that into Intimidate instead of Sense Motive. Yay for social skills!
#3
diceboxisfull
Mar 20, 2008 9:28:50 I think you have a pretty good build going and as was pointed out in the DFA guide, you really cant go wrong with any DFA build.

A couple of things to note though:

1)Figure out what role you want to play in the party and focus your feats/gear/personality/invocations around that.

2) Unless you really focus (featwise) on your Breath Weapon, you will not be dealing out massive amounts of damage with it a la Fivefold Breath. As you noted, you are good aligned, so I would reccomend going down the debuff path. Sicken, sleep, slow etc breath are all pretty amazing and if you are going down the debuff path, the fear inducing invocations are damn good. If you have primary spellcasters, or any of your melee types have to make opposed rolls, you will quickly become the party's favorite combat tool.

3) It is unlikely that you will be using your BW every single round. You can only use your Breath Effects every other round and you will find that there are many creatures out there (particularly at low levels) that you will be unable to effect with your fire breath (which you can use whenever you want). In these instances, it is good to have a few eternal wands handy to help buff/debuff. I highly recommend keeping your UMD skill maxed. For example, if you have a wand of Glitterdust or Grease, you can still contribute without having to get too close to the action. At mid levels, taking the Dispel invocation (not the touch one...ug) gives you something to do almost every round, but it loses its punch at later levels.

4) I thought I would retrain the Vigor Aura later, but I have to say that it is the gift that keeps on giving. It has saved more lives than I can count at this point and because it scales, it is not losing as much potency as I thought it would. I am thinking of taking the Eneregy Aura a well to really up my Fire Breath DC's.

Thats all I got for now, so g'luck and dont feel like you cant adjust things as you go. DFA's are exceptionally adaptable.
#4
nunkuruji
Mar 20, 2008 10:29:33 I'm not the biggest fan of gnomes, but anyways...

Consider doing a Dragonborn transformation. It's in Races of the Dragon.
It could also work well with a different race that doesn't take a hit to Cha.

I don't believe Draconic Aura: Vigor is available with RAW. It is unique to Dragon Shaman, as is their version of Power. If your DM lets you get away with it, more power to you. Vigor is awesome.
(I am playing a Dragon Shaman currently)

The overlooked detail of Bahamut vs. Tiamat breath is that Bahamut breath is a standard action and Tiamat breath is a full-round action. I would suggest taking 15 levels of DFA to get Bahamut breath. Then using the Draconic Toughness + Bahamut breath combo at the beginning of an encounter. After that HoS is certainly a nice way to maximize your breath dice.
#5
DarkChipmunk
Mar 20, 2008 10:32:19 Thanks! I had forgotten about Eternal Wands. That makes things a little more attractive. I'm definitely going down the debuff path, and I'm fine not doing massive damage, though I will be investing in the damage boosters. There's no reason not to eke out a little bit more damage from them after all.

Vigor aura is locked in at 3rd. The more I think about it the more I love it.

Swapping Sense Motive for Intimidate to get the Frightful Presence feat and using the Frightful Presence invocation together to make foes Frightened or at least more likely to be Shaken seems good, as Extra Invocation doesn't really seem worth it. Then again, the FP feat only works on stuff with lower HD than you, so it might not be worth it.

As for breathing every round, I don't see why not? Doesn't Entangling Exhalation need you to deal damage with your breath for it to work? If we're facing one big enemy, I'm going to want to keep him bogged down as much as I can. If it's a lot of smaller enemies, I'll want to lay breath in as many directions as possible to share the love around.

If I take Sickening Breath instead of Frost breath... that could certainly make things interesting. Sickening Breath's duration isn't really all t hat impressive, though. Hmm...
#6
Wyvernhand
Mar 20, 2008 10:45:46 I'd def stick with Frost Breath. Slow is one of the WORST debuffs at high levels when things start getting tons of attacks. Denying a foe a full attack at high levels is about equivilant to healing your tank a couple hundred hp every round. Combine slow with Entangle and you and your team can effectively kite around big creatures with no ranged attacks until they die.

Look maybe into Lingering Breath for repeat goodness on subsequent rounds. Also, if metabreath feats got your cooldown longer than a round or so, Recover Breath knocks a round off your cooldown, and stacks with itself, so you could potentially take it multiple times until you can metabreath every round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DarkChipmunk Mar 19, 2008 15:26:10	For starters, I've read the handbook, and I'm still a bit... confused. I'm creating a Dragonfire Adept, starting at level 1 to be played to who knows how high level. Here's my plan. Note, I'm of good alignment, so Fivefold Breath is... probably not going to happen. Whisper Gnome with pretty good stats. Skills maxed Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, UMD. Build: Dragonfire Adept 12/Heir of Siberys 2/DFA +X Feat plan: Trait) Quick (I have a high enough Con that I won't miss the hp) Flaw: Noncombatant) Ability Focus: Breath Weapon 1) Entangling Exhalation 3) Draconic Aura: Vigor 6) Extra Invocation? 9) Flyby Attack? 12) Heroic Spirit 15) Mark of Stars 18) Breath of Siberys Breath Effects: Frost Breath, Slow Breath, Sleep Breath, Thunder Breath, Force Breath Invocations: Magic Insight, Beguiling Influence, Charm, Draconic Flight (swap for ???), Chilling Fog, Baleful Geas, Greater Draconic Flight, Energy Immunity I'm taking Heir early, since I really don't have Fivefold to look forward to, and I really want both Mark of Stars and Breath of Siberys. My level 6 and 9 feats are giving me severe trouble, and Draconic Aura: Vigor at level 3 is a strong possibility, but still up in the air. Perhaps Frightful Presence + Frightful Presence would be a useful thing to try? Humanoid Form is, for various reasons, not an option. I feel like I'm missing something obvious. The character is going for a combination of out-of-combat Social ability and in-combat battlefield control/crowd control. My first acquisition of a magic item will be the Cincture, no contest. Thank you.
#2 DarkChipmunk Mar 20, 2008 5:57:56	The reason I'm posting this to ask for help is that... frankly there's a LOT of information in the Handbook, and it is very difficult to know just what fits. There are a lot of things I don't quite see the practical value of, such as a number of the Metabreath feats. I could be wrong, of course, and probably am. The more I look at it, the more I think I want to retrain out Sense Motive for Intimidate so I can pick up Frightful Presence feat at level 6. Round 1: Slow + Shaken; Round 2: Damaged + Entangled. Later, rinse, repeat. For some reason those ranks in UMD are making me feel weird. I very rarely use charged items I find, opting to purchase continuous items instead, which rearely ever need UMD. I know it's a powerful skill, but I don't think it fits well with my style of play. I'll probably retrain that into Intimidate instead of Sense Motive. Yay for social skills!
#3 diceboxisfull Mar 20, 2008 9:28:50	I think you have a pretty good build going and as was pointed out in the DFA guide, you really cant go wrong with any DFA build. A couple of things to note though: 1)Figure out what role you want to play in the party and focus your feats/gear/personality/invocations around that. 2) Unless you really focus (featwise) on your Breath Weapon, you will not be dealing out massive amounts of damage with it a la Fivefold Breath. As you noted, you are good aligned, so I would reccomend going down the debuff path. Sicken, sleep, slow etc breath are all pretty amazing and if you are going down the debuff path, the fear inducing invocations are damn good. If you have primary spellcasters, or any of your melee types have to make opposed rolls, you will quickly become the party's favorite combat tool. 3) It is unlikely that you will be using your BW every single round. You can only use your Breath Effects every other round and you will find that there are many creatures out there (particularly at low levels) that you will be unable to effect with your fire breath (which you can use whenever you want). In these instances, it is good to have a few eternal wands handy to help buff/debuff. I highly recommend keeping your UMD skill maxed. For example, if you have a wand of Glitterdust or Grease, you can still contribute without having to get too close to the action. At mid levels, taking the Dispel invocation (not the touch one...ug) gives you something to do almost every round, but it loses its punch at later levels. 4) I thought I would retrain the Vigor Aura later, but I have to say that it is the gift that keeps on giving. It has saved more lives than I can count at this point and because it scales, it is not losing as much potency as I thought it would. I am thinking of taking the Eneregy Aura a well to really up my Fire Breath DC's. Thats all I got for now, so g'luck and dont feel like you cant adjust things as you go. DFA's are exceptionally adaptable.
#4 nunkuruji Mar 20, 2008 10:29:33	I'm not the biggest fan of gnomes, but anyways... Consider doing a Dragonborn transformation. It's in Races of the Dragon. It could also work well with a different race that doesn't take a hit to Cha. I don't believe Draconic Aura: Vigor is available with RAW. It is unique to Dragon Shaman, as is their version of Power. If your DM lets you get away with it, more power to you. Vigor is awesome. (I am playing a Dragon Shaman currently) The overlooked detail of Bahamut vs. Tiamat breath is that Bahamut breath is a standard action and Tiamat breath is a full-round action. I would suggest taking 15 levels of DFA to get Bahamut breath. Then using the Draconic Toughness + Bahamut breath combo at the beginning of an encounter. After that HoS is certainly a nice way to maximize your breath dice.
#5 DarkChipmunk Mar 20, 2008 10:32:19	Thanks! I had forgotten about Eternal Wands. That makes things a little more attractive. I'm definitely going down the debuff path, and I'm fine not doing massive damage, though I will be investing in the damage boosters. There's no reason not to eke out a little bit more damage from them after all. Vigor aura is locked in at 3rd. The more I think about it the more I love it. Swapping Sense Motive for Intimidate to get the Frightful Presence feat and using the Frightful Presence invocation together to make foes Frightened or at least more likely to be Shaken seems good, as Extra Invocation doesn't really seem worth it. Then again, the FP feat only works on stuff with lower HD than you, so it might not be worth it. As for breathing every round, I don't see why not? Doesn't Entangling Exhalation need you to deal damage with your breath for it to work? If we're facing one big enemy, I'm going to want to keep him bogged down as much as I can. If it's a lot of smaller enemies, I'll want to lay breath in as many directions as possible to share the love around. If I take Sickening Breath instead of Frost breath... that could certainly make things interesting. Sickening Breath's duration isn't really all t hat impressive, though. Hmm...
#6 Wyvernhand Mar 20, 2008 10:45:46	I'd def stick with Frost Breath. Slow is one of the WORST debuffs at high levels when things start getting tons of attacks. Denying a foe a full attack at high levels is about equivilant to healing your tank a couple hundred hp every round. Combine slow with Entangle and you and your team can effectively kite around big creatures with no ranged attacks until they die. Look maybe into Lingering Breath for repeat goodness on subsequent rounds. Also, if metabreath feats got your cooldown longer than a round or so, Recover Breath knocks a round off your cooldown, and stacks with itself, so you could potentially take it multiple times until you can metabreath every round.