You don't incure the negatives for aging with this feat, so you can be as old as you want, though you better pick a metalic dragon and have a good charisma, otherwise you could have about 1 year left to live.
I understand that you don't incur negatives, but why is that? And whats with the metalic dragon/charisma?
I understand that you don't incur negatives, but why is that? And whats with the metalic dragon/charisma?
Part of being Dragonwrought. Look at it in the Kobold Section. They don't get penalized for being older.
Part of being Dragonwrought. Look at it in the Kobold Section. They don't get penalized for being older.
Cool, thanks. So is being Dragonwrought kobold worth it?
Cool, thanks. So is being Dragonwrought kobold worth it?
Yes. If you don't mind the Con loss from Kobold-hood.
Yes. If you don't mind the Con loss from Kobold-hood.
The Desert Kobold variant gets a -2 WIS instead.
The Desert Kobold variant gets a -2 instead.
I thought that it was -4 Str, -2 Con, +2 Dex for the default Kobold? Oh, now I see, free bonus to Str to make them more powerful.
Desert Kobold
-4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom
Venerable
+3 Intelligence, +3 Wisdom, +3 Charisma
Total
-4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +3 Intelligence, +1 Wisdom, +3 Charisma
and
+3 sorcerer levels
for a la 0 race and 2 feats.
Sign me up.
also dragonwraught kobolds can get +1 sorcerer level from the draconic rite of passage, as well as +2 sorcerer level from loredrake located in dragons of eberron.
Earth Kobold
-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Con
Venerable
+3 Intelligence, +3 Wisdom, +3 Charisma
Total
-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +3 Intelligence, +3 Wisdom, +3 Charisma
and
+3 sorcerer levels
for a la 0 race and 2 feats.
Sign me up.
And then add in the Dracolichdom, and two flaws, and we are set for (un)life!
I thought that it was -4 Str, -2 Con, +2 Dex for the default Kobold? Oh, now I see, free bonus to Str to make them more powerful.
I missed an important word. The Desert kobold gets -2 WIS instead of -2 CON.
RotD, Draconomicon also helps, and Dragon Magic a little bit as well. As usual, the more books you have, the more CO you get.
Dragons of Eberron has a few options that may be worth-while. Also, because you qualify for the template, get the MM5 for (I have no idea how to spell it) Zorvintal template for some neat tricks, and still retain your Sorcerer levels (it says innate casting ability, so stuff you gain through Kobold you keep). Then take Awaken SR and say you just won the lottery from being a Kobold.
What does "Cha" refer to: Charisma score or Charisma modifier?
That reminds me... a regular kobold has a maximum age of 120 + Cha years, a chromatic Dragonwrought kobold has a maximum age of 120 + (Cha x 5) years, and a metallic Dragonwrought kobold has a maximum age of 120 + (Cha x 10) years.
What does "Cha" refer to: Charisma score or Charisma modifier?
Usually, it would say Score if it meant Score. If not, assume Modifier.
Usually, it would say Score if it meant Score. If not, assume Modifier.
Actually you would want to read the description in the text for clarification. I have seen it go both ways.
The Prime Suspect
also dragonwraught kobolds can get +1 sorcerer level from the draconic rite of passage, as well as +2 sorcerer level from loredrake located in dragons of eberron.
Desert Kobold
-4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom
Venerable
+3 Intelligence, +3 Wisdom, +3 Charisma
Total
-4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +3 Intelligence, +1 Wisdom, +3 Charisma
and
+3 sorcerer levels
for a la 0 race and 2 feats.
Sign me up.
Pretty sweet for a Kobold Wizard to get access to Ultimate Magus ;)
You don't incure the negatives for aging with this feat, so you can be as old as you want, though you better pick a metalic dragon and have a good charisma, otherwise you could have about 1 year left to live.
Not really. Any Kobold lives Charisma years after being Venerable. Chromatic Dragonwrought Kobolds live Charisma x5 years after reaching Venerable, and Metallic Dragonwrought Kobolds live Charisma x10 years after becoming Venerable. So even a Dragonwrought Kobold who chose a non-Chromatic, non-Metallic heritage would have at least another six years left (assuming a starting Charisma of 3).
Usually, it would say Score if it meant Score. If not, assume Modifier.
I thought it was the other way around.
[...]as well as +2 sorcerer level from loredrake located in dragons of eberron
Hmmm... what exactly is loredrake? Can anyone give me a general rundown of what it is/does, and what I need to take it?
I don't have DoE, but if Loredrake would work in my build I may have to get it...
Hmmm... what exactly is loredrake? Can anyone give me a general rundown of what it is/does, and what I need to take it?
I don't have DoE, but if Loredrake would work in my build I may have to get it...
Loredrake is a substitution option for dragons only.
I am posting the quote and the link for the discussion on it from Dragons of Eberron CO thread
an even sicker part of Dragons of Eberron is on the same page as Wyrms of War is this. (I am summing it up instead of posting the real text.) It is one of the religious substitution options.
Loredrake
Requires: True Dragon
Make racial hd d10 instead of d12.
Treat Sorcerer Level (not caster level but actual level) as 2 higher.
If have the dragon ability to cast cleric spells as arcane spells (such as gold dragon) you lose this ability. If you don't have this ability it doesn't matter.
Thus a Dragonwrought Kobold will be able to cast spells 3 levels higher than a normal sorcerer, or 2 levels higher than a wizard for the price of 2 feats prior to lvl 6.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=946969
Enter +4 free sorcerer cl!
So the new cool way to be a kobold involves having epic feats and being a dracolich at level 1, then taking a few feats and beating the wizard over the head in spell levels? Kobolds are broken...;)
And this is news, why?
Though after all the kobold hype all I want now is for goblins to get the love they deserve.
Judging by the Blue? Never.
Loredrake is a substitution option for dragons only.
I am posting the quote and the link for the discussion on it from Dragons of Eberron CO thread
Off hand, I don't think a dragonwrought kobold would actually qualify if it specifies true dragons. Dragonwrought just changes type to dragon rather than humanoid, it doesn't turn you into a true dragon (i.e. the standard variety dragon).
Off hand, I don't think a dragonwrought kobold would actually qualify if it specifies true dragons. Dragonwrought just changes type to dragon rather than humanoid, it doesn't turn you into a true dragon (i.e. the standard variety dragon).
I agree with you, but apparently nobody else does. As I'm told, it was hashed out before I got here in a thread I can't find that nobody wants to link me to.
at least as far as i can find...
"True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful
as they grow older.
"
"Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance
through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons (which
should not be taken to mean that they are necessarily less
formidable than true dragons)."
pg 4 draconomicon
Off hand, I don't think a dragonwrought kobold would actually qualify if it specifies true dragons. Dragonwrought just changes type to dragon rather than humanoid, it doesn't turn you into a true dragon (i.e. the standard variety dragon).
This is debatable, but as altpersona pointed out, the evidence is leaning to dragonwrought kobolds being true dragons.
Note it is still cheesy as hell, and I seriously doubt it was RAI of the designers ;)
true dragon = dragon type and 12 age categories.
at least as far as i can find...
"True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful
as they grow older.
"
It was clarified by the books designers (in the FAQ maybe? it came up in a previous discussion about the whole "qualify for Epic feats" thing) that the age categories are just a naming convention that kobolds use for themselves, it isn't intended to suggest that kobolds actually have age categories outside of the standard "middle", "old", and "venerable". It was just supposed to be a nice bit of fluff for the race.
true dragon = dragon type and 12 age categories.
at least as far as i can find...
"True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful
as they grow older.
"
"Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance
through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons (which
should not be taken to mean that they are necessarily less
formidable than true dragons)."
pg 4 draconomicon
More precisely, from Monster Manual p. 68 (emphasis mine):
"All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."
What new "abilities" do Kobolds gain as they age (not as they level up)?
I googled "Cheesewrought Instabold" and got
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-589408
I googled "Dragonwrought Kobold site:forums.gleemax.com archive" and got results including:
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-719245.html
Basically:
Dragonwrought = Dragon
And has age categories.
And "improves" just after it de-eggs itself, constituting "improvement".
Ergo Dragonwrought = True Dragon
Ergo would qualify for Epic feats, at age category Old or later.
Not getting the -6 penalty to physical ability stats, for Venerable, is icing on the cake.
Later:
Dragon Pacts makes ALL Kobolds, to be True Dragons.
Ergo, Old Kobolds qualify for Epic feats.
Dragonwrought is on the D&D web site, but the de-egging improvement is only in the book; which I don't have.
I also don't have Dragon Magic for the Dragon Pacts.
Somebody want to post the relevant text.
An Old Kobold is: S -5, C -3, D +1, I +1, W +1, Ch +1
One Epic feat, class feats can't be (except for the Tsuyo- exception).
Flaws get a feat, but not Epic ones.
Martial Monk in Dragon mag, has vague enough wording to allow Bonus Fighter feats, which Tsuyo- figured to include Epic bonus fighter feats, just for something that can take Epic feats, which Kobolds can do. And yes, he called it cheesey. It's broken broken only with Festering Anger, which is broken 1st all by itself.
There was a huge thread discussing this, just after Dragonwrought was released. I haven't found it in the archive just yet. After much aggitation, it was realized there weren't many combos that rose above the suckage that is the Kobold.
Ph00's Loredrake idea is better.
Since Kobolds are dragons,
could one worship the way dragons do and get Cleric spells on their Sorceror casting ?!
More precisely, from Monster Manual p. 68 (emphasis mine):
"All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."
What new "abilities" do Kobolds gain as they age (not as they level up)?
From the official WotC rules clarificator the Oracle, http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309d&L=dragonlance-l&D=1&P=20988
“Having the dragon type doesn't give you anything but d12 HD, low-light vision and darkvision, etc etc. You're talking about "true dragons" which are those creatures with the dragon type and possessing age categories.”
From the official WotC rules clarificator the Oracle, http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309d&L=dragonlance-l&D=1&P=20988
“Having the dragon type doesn't give you anything but d12 HD, low-light vision and darkvision, etc etc. You're talking about "true dragons" which are those creatures with the dragon type and possessing age categories.”
Something of which Kobolds have 4 of: Young, Middle-aged, Old, and Venerable. Oh look, qualification.
Something of which Kobolds have 4 of: Young, Middle-aged, Old, and Venerable. Oh look, qualification.
Well, they were actually given "age categories" (as in the dragon ones) in Races of The Dragon.
Well, they were actually given "age categories" (as in the dragon ones) in Races of The Dragon.
Yes, but those are fluff, not actual rules. They do count if you have a lenient DM, but not RAW.
Something of which Kobolds have 4 of: Young, Middle-aged, Old, and Venerable. Oh look, qualification.
The dragon type doesn't make you immortal or negate age penalties, therefore all (or nearly all) dragons will eventually be young, middle-aged, old, and venerable (regardless of whether the exact ages where this occurs are published). Dragonkin, dragonnes, etc... if this qualified a dragon for the "age category" distinction, every dragon that wasn't literally immortal would qualify as a "true dragon"-- which in turn makes the distinction somewhat pointless.
If that is the case and true dragon is assumed to actually mean something specific, I think we can say that it is the standard 12 step dragon program that replaces the standard aging rules. Which would in turn disqualify a dragonwrough kobold, though I'm not sure how Dragon Magic's dragon pacts are supposed to automatically qualify a kobold as a true dragon.
Yes, but those are fluff, not actual rules. They do count if you have a lenient DM, but not RAW.
They're written as rules in the book. It takes quite a stretch of the imagination to say that these tables are fluff (unless you want to allow humans to be immortal, since their age categories are fluff too).
What the developers say outside of their "official voice" irrelevant.
They're written as rules in the book. It takes quite a stretch of the imagination to say that these tables are fluff (unless you want to allow humans to be immortal, since their age categories are fluff too).
What the developers say outside of their "official voice" irrelevant.
Except for those who want to use the rules as they were intended, which does still occur, as inexplicable as it might be to some.
Even within the book though, the age categories tied to the typical dragon cycle don't have any actual effect. There is nothing in the rules tied to a kobold being at wyrmling, mature adult, or old age. Instead, they are provided with the exact same table as any other humanoid right under the 12 age categories break out. The penalties and benefits of aging don't even align with the age categories, even though that would have been fairly easy to accomplish.
an even sicker part of Dragons of Eberron is on the same page as Wyrms of War is this. (I am summing it up instead of posting the real text.) It is one of the religious substitution options.
Loredrake
Requires: True Dragon
Make racial hd d10 instead of d12.
Treat Sorcerer Level (not caster level but actual level) as 2 higher.
If have the dragon ability to cast cleric spells as arcane spells (such as gold dragon) you lose this ability. If you don't have this ability it doesn't matter.
Thus a Dragonwrought Kobold will be able to cast spells 3 levels higher than a normal sorcerer, or 2 levels higher than a wizard for the price of 2 feats prior to lvl 6.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=946969
Ya as far as i can tell the two posters before me are correct. I was hoping not a few months ago but ive talked to many people and read about it.
From what i learned a true dragon: is a full blood dragon that gets stronger as it ages and larger as it ages via 'age categories'. for example a psuedodragon is not a true dragon, a wyvrm is not a true dragon and neither is a dragonwrought kobold for the same reason. All three have "dragon type' but none have 'true dragon' type. Could u imagine a lvl 1 campaign with a true dragon? .. lol now you still qualify for feats that require dragon type for your kobold sorc: for example "awake frightful presence" which is fun with crazy cha score.
Monster manual says on page 68: All TRUE DRAGONS gain more abilities and geater power as they age. Other creatures that have the DRAGON type do not. 2 different types, you are a true dragon or a dragon. Plz dont assume blizz made that typo mistake and gave true dragon type to a LA: 0 creature.
Even for a wyvern it says they are distand cousins of true dragons and they have 'dragon' type.
So ya there ya hhave it one more opinion that may disappoint
Could u imagine a lvl 1 campaign with a true dragon? .. lol now you still qualify for feats that require dragon type for your kobold sorc: for example "awake frightful presence" which is fun with crazy cha score.
So ya there ya hhave it one more opinion that may disappoint
Actually, Awaken Frightful Presence only requires the dragon type and Cha 11. Without any racial hit dice it's going to be kind of pitiful on a kobold though, assuming a DM allows it since even though they're dragons their form is still humanoid in appearance.
The penalties and benefits of aging don't even align with the age categories, even though that would have been fairly easy to accomplish.
I noticed this recently, and I think it's probably one of the most telling arguments against dragonwrought kobolds being true dragons.
And, although it flies in the face of the Most Holy RAW, I'd like to cite the Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization-- particularly the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Tenth.
Have i missed something, where in Draconic Rite of Passage does it say that you'd gain +1 level of sorcerer? As i read it from Races of Dragon, it says that you gain a single level 1 sorcerer spell that you can cast as a spell-like ability. It says nothing about that you could increase your sorcerer level with it.
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.
Actually, Awaken Frightful Presence only requires the dragon type and Cha 11. Without any racial hit dice it's going to be kind of pitiful on a kobold though, assuming a DM allows it since even though they're dragons their form is still humanoid in appearance.
i never said anything about what is required for the feat. I said that even though every1 ive spoken too and that we agree dw isnt true dragon that the dw kobold still qualifies for awaken fright.
im saying even tho its not true its still fun to take.
i never said anything about what is required for the feat. I said that even though every1 ive spoken too and that we agree dw isnt true dragon that the dw kobold still qualifies for awaken fright.
im saying even tho its not true its still fun to take.
Sorry, I missed the "still" in your statement. I thought you were referencing things that would make a level 1 campaign broken with a true dragon when you referred to Awaken Frightful Presence. i.e. "imagine a level 1 campaign with a true dragon... you could now do this, this, and this"
I thought True Dragons were only Chromatic or Metallic dragons.
Other true dragons have been printed. The "planar" dragons were all true dragons, as were the faerunian dragons (i.e. song, fang, brown, steel, etc.), the lung dragons (oriental), and a few others.
If people are going to argue that kobolds don't get any stronger abilities as they age, several feats change this. Look up stuff such as wingstorm and other feats that kobolds qualify for but there strength is determined by the dragon's age categories.
How does a feat referencing age categories grant age categories to the kobold? If they don't have them, then that portion of the feat's abilities isn't going to get stronger. In the case of Wingstorm in particular, you would also need to go through a considerable amount of trouble to pick that up with a kobold-- particularly given the "Large" requirement.
Technically speaking, a fighter can take Practiced Spellcaster without having or ever planning on taking a caster level. It doesn't grant him the spellcasting ability to take advantage of the feat. (Different situation and details, however, the concept is the same-- you can qualify for feats that you are not going to be able to use effectively if at all.)
oh and another thing: body that would be possessed should be dead? in an advanced state of decomposition? killed a few seconds before possession
(fresh bodies )?More precisely, from Monster Manual p. 68 (emphasis mine):
"All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."
What new "abilities" do Kobolds gain as they age (not as they level up)?
its a shame that the draco books came out after the mm.
the various book makers may not have meant to make the age catagories real, but they didnt print them in a side bar, note to the dm or behind the scenes...
the most damning thing i have seen against the true dragon status, is the list of trues, and i dont see it as very damning at that, because kobolds arent dragons, unless they convert...
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-570864.html
Sigmajargon - he of the HIVE, makes an interesting list on that thread.
Vecna - later makes the simplist (occam?) arguement.
A couple of the book designers chime in with a no, but ... you know ... them designers are perfect.
;)
The consensus was Dragonwrought feat at 1, epics at 3 and up.
Tsuyo- (of course) later found tricky wording for Martial Monk in Dragon mag.
The consensus was Dragonwrought feat at 1, epics at 3 and up.
Tsuyo- (of course) later found tricky wording for Martial Monk in Dragon mag.
Consensus is when the group as a whole agrees on something-- I didn't see consensus in that thread. The last couple of posts were people still arguing back and forth-- people just got tired of it. :P
How does a feat referencing age categories grant age categories to the kobold? If they don't have them, then that portion of the feat's abilities isn't going to get stronger. In the case of Wingstorm in particular, you would also need to go through a considerable amount of trouble to pick that up with a kobold-- particularly given the "Large" requirement.
Technically speaking, a fighter can take Practiced Spellcaster without having or ever planning on taking a caster level. It doesn't grant him the spellcasting ability to take advantage of the feat. (Different situation and details, however, the concept is the same-- you can qualify for feats that you are not going to be able to use effectively if at all.)
Kobolds have age categories according to races of the dragon.
They don't get more powerful abilities due to these age categories directly (such as spellcasting). Feats change this.
Consensus is when the group as a whole agrees on something-- I didn't see consensus in that thread. The last couple of posts were people still arguing back and forth-- people just got tired of it. :P
I said "concensus", Obama said "bitter". Yep.
Point 1 is still, the designers said that was not the intent. Period, acknowledged, repeated (second time), etc.
Point 2 is still, Dragonwroughts are Dragons, just like the MM Dragons.
Point 3 is still, both improve with age, and have age categories, hence are the (new) True Dragons.
Point 3-anti, is still DwK's don't improve every age level.
Point 3-anti-anti, is still where the heck is that qualification in the rules?
Point 4 is Phoenix00's above.
Point 5 is Dragon Pacts make all Kobolds to be True Dragons, even if they aren't on other True Dragon lists.
Ultimately, even if one rejects this anyway, the question is: "How broken is it?"
Compared to a Human, a Dragonwrought is down 2 feats for the first two levels, and is still -4 Str and -2 Con, and if the DwK pressed into service at Old age and not get the higher ability mods. Not good. Then at 3rd level, Epic feats. Concensus of the boards, back in the day, was that Epic feats were worth 2 regular feats, so on that scale, it's only at 6th level that you catch up, after sucking bad for 5 levels.
Unless you optimize it, then it's fun and games.
There are a few funny tricks you can do with epic feats (like getting energy resistance:fire, and then lighting yourself on fire to do extra damage in grapples), but, honestly, it's not very gamebreaking without adding in other, more broken things.
bumpo - here's the "other" one