All WotC books, starting 32 point build, appropriate gold for 20th level, no infinite loops, you don't know who you'll face next, spell/power preparation takes place before the opponent is known, same exact character faces each other character, terrain is set at random, weather is random, climate is random, 400x400x200 ft. (plus below ground 30ft), leaving the area is a forfeit (though teleporting within is OK), characters begin in a random location within the arena, expended resources reset for the next battle,
The classes were distributed at random and I got the Druid. I've never done anything like this before and could use some advice on what kind of tactics I'm likely to see from my opponents as well as how I might address them. I have to go for some balance as I expect that I will not win every fight, but I'd like to be the overall winner (the overall winner gets to pick up to $200 in product from the DM's hobby shop).
We have a month to prepare the character and an opportunity to point out strategies/items/spells etc. that should be banned.
My understanding is that the DM has already banned followers, orange ioun stone, more than one wish per encounter, and nightsticks. (I'll update this as the list grows.) The DM does not want automatic wins, so I expect he'll do some more banning if I can make the case that some tactics/item, etc. is automatic win.
What kinds of approaches are my counterparts likely to take and is there anything I can do about them. I do realize that the options are limitless, but I thought this board could help me prep.
Thanks in advance, Snork
Do you have to be straight druid?
If you expect a bunch of Disjunctions to fly around though, VoP might be a good idea.
I have got to go first so I'll have a moment of prescience cast on me to boost my initiative by +20 (plus a few other improvements to my initiative to boot) If theres any chance that I might possibly start the fight flat footed I'll have foresight cast on me as well.
when its my turn Im going to cast a maximized timestop to allow me to do everything I need to in order to win. Ill gate in some celestial gold dragons or solars and cast as many buffs on myself as I need to in order to insure my success.
And incase your able to get past them all Ill also have a contingent demension door cast on myself incase your MDJ me.
[post=10582589]Re: A Core-only Wiz 20 vs Splatbook Ftr 20... http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10582589[/post] by Lycanthromancer.
Holy smokes . . . what's a Druid 20 supposed to do against [b]that[/b]???
Your main concern should be other spell casters, but at level 20 it will be who goes first will likely win in a spell caster fight. Try to get super init, and hope no one takes contingency celerity(or get it yourself) go first and use your nastiest combo.. Shapechange into something nasty vrs melee classes.
Do you have to be straight druid?
Yes, I have to be a straight druid.
And how does a druid assure that he goes first. Did you see Nitecyper's reference. Zoinks.
Also, what buffs you can start with will make an enormous difference, and it isn't very realistic that 20th level characters would go around buff-less... but then again, arena fights aren't typical D&D, either.
Expendable items can make a huge difference, also. Like how many scrolls of Gate (or god forbid Candles of Invocation) can you bring to the match? Can you walk in with 20 Contingent spells on you (via Craft Contingent Spell)?
Precast buffs + expendable items can really determine who wins just by themselves. Then it's all about who knows the dirtiest tricks for making sure they go first, or prevent the other guy from doing so.
Druids are hardly helpless, though. You do get Shapechange, after all, and a nasty animal companion. For example, you could turn into a beholder, and aim your antimagic eye at the enemy and laugh while your pet dire tiger rips them to shreds... if you even get to go at all. :D
Holy smokes . . . what's a Druid 20 supposed to do against [b]that[/b]???
Quite simple...point out to the DM the most obvious rule errors in the Lycanthromancer's wizard tactics...:D
- since you cannot affect anyone else in a time stop, you can not call any creatures in said time stop. Apart from that, the knowledge-arcana skill check is sky-high to know about the creatures called, much higher for any useful information of their abilities. And in no way the wizard gets to control and decide on what the called creatures do - they are run by the DM who decides what they will deem appropriate to fulfill the task for them.
- having said that, the idea with the ring gates glued to dragons to "safely" cast from behind two walls would not have worked, since, again, you cannot affect anyone in a time stop (apart from your familiar).
- with astral projection, you can only leave your body behind on the material plane, not in some extradimensional place. Plus, the moment you copy all of your equipment, your exceed your wbl by the same amount (since you now have two items of everything). A sane DM will not allow that for long, and you appear to have capped wbl for your duels.
- the contingency effect would have failed since it was not worded exactly enough.
- Lastly, do not expect any opponent to be so stupid to simply charge your prismatic wall (or, for a druid, a wall of thorns...). At level 20, they simply turn etheral, duck underneath the walls and attack you. Or they let themselves be dimensiondoored by intelligent items next to you and full attack or lay AMF on you or whatever.
A good tactics for your druid against other casters is to get up some AMF effect and use your medium BAB and better hp to melee/grapple them ftw. PhaedrusXY's beholder Antimagic ray approach is much more elegant, though.
But for that, you must
1) ascertain who/where is your enemy (almost all casters can fool your senses)
2) get next to the caster for close combat or rays (quite challenging at those levels vs foes with extradimensional travel means, high speeds AND contingencies and celerity)
Or try to get the most broken non-core magic yourself (the turtle trick, getting extra actions and/or celerity effects; AND sky-high initiative plus protection vs being surprised).
I fear that in full caster duels druids are at a disadvantage.
Quite simple...point out to the DM the most obvious rule errors in the Lycanthromancer's wizard tactics...:D
Your criticisms are minor. Even given a DM who rules like you do on those specific items, his overall approach will still work just fine.
1) You can summon instead of call, or use a metamagic rod of Delay Spell to have the dragons show up after the Timestop ends. The Ring Gates are unnecessary, anyway. He could be incorporeal and/or move through the ground to get in and out of his "turtle shell". A familiar can also be used to give you extra actions, and they can even use magic items if you take ranks in UMD, like say using Dimension Door to get you back into the "turtle shell".
2) Astral Projection is complicated and vaguely worded. It could easily be argued to work the way Lycanthromancer says. Also, the wealth by level argument is kind of lame... The spell specifically does that. If you're going to disallow that, you might as well just ban the whole spell... It is also totally unnecessary for victory, either way. It was just insurance.
3) To be fair, he said the guy's saves were so high that he actually expected to pass them all when he tried to jump through the Prismatic Sphere, and almost did. Of course, the wizard might not even be in there. It would make for a nice decoy. :D
Or try to get the most broken non-core magic yourself (the turtle trick, getting extra actions and/or celerity effects; AND sky-high initiative plus protection vs being surprised).
I fear that in full caster duels druids are at a disadvantage.
Eh, most of the really horribly broken crap is actually Core, like Shapechange. We're just more used to it being overpowered as hell. :P I think contingent spells can make up for the weaknesses of the druid in duels, though, if they're allowed.
Your criticisms are minor. Even given a DM who rules like you do on those specific items, his overall approach will still work just fine.
Sorry, PhaedrusXY, I do not think so, for the reasons I listed in my last post and below...
1) You can summon instead of call, or use a metamagic rod of Delay Spell to have the dragons show up after the Timestop ends. The Ring Gates are unnecessary, anyway. He could be incorporeal and/or move through the ground to get in and out of his "turtle shell". A familiar can also be used to give you extra actions, and they can even use magic items if you take ranks in UMD, like say using Dimension Door to get you back into the "turtle shell".
Delay spell rods are unfortunately not core (which was the limit set for Lycanthromancer's point), and even so I am not sure that they could loophole the time stop restrictions this way (for instance, because you cannot be sure when the time stop ends).
Now, monster summoning IX gets you MUCH weaker creatures than the CR 30 dragons called here. Any reasonably powerful EL 20 character will just shrug off such summoned creatures. A simple protection from evil is enough in many cases. Then, it may even be argued that summoning SPELLS are not allowed, either, since of course summoning also affects others (the summoned creatures). The spell says "summon allies" and not "cast summoning spells", and thus it could easily mean that you can simply take the time through other means to summon help with other ways.
Incorporality at that level does not mean that you are invulnerable, and it greatly limits the kinds of spells that you can cast to attack. Needless to say that the opponent at level 20 can also become incorporal through various means. That is not a wizard forte.
And once the familiar UMDs the wizard back into the "turtle shell" he basically has no more line of sight or effect and has no clue what his opponent is doing.
So, to sum up, the two major pillars of Lycanthromancer's strategy - to launch an overwhelming ,epic-level attack while being able to attack without being attackable himself - simply vanish into thin air.
That is not "minor criticism".;)
2) Astral Projection is complicated and vaguely worded. It could easily be argued to work the way Lycanthromancer says. Also, the wealth by level argument is kind of lame... The spell specifically does that. If you're going to disallow that, you might as well just ban the whole spell... It is also totally unnecessary for victory, either way. It was just insurance.
Oh, with anything meaningful in terms of attack gone (see above), survival is a must have - but I do not think it should be allowed this way.
Basically, the DM sets the interpretation in the campaign or duel setting. When a spell can be interpreted in several ways, why then go for a completely broken interpretation? Makes no sense to me.
And the wbl argument is not "lame" because the spell is apparently not intended to provide you with double wealth for a longer time. Wbl is the reference value for the DM to gauge how balanced things are. When a wizard or a party constantly adventures with a virtual body and virtual items at no risk at all, the fun is gone (well, for most, anyhow :D )
3) To be fair, he said the guy's saves were so high that he actually expected to pass them all when he tried to jump through the Prismatic Sphere, and almost did. Of course, the wizard might not even be in there. It would make for a nice decoy. :D
Well, maybe it is avoiding metagaming on the part of the wizard opponent- but with several saves in a row a "1" is bound to come up - a too big risk to take. And even when not being able to recognise the wall for what it is (spellcraft is not a class skill for figthters), it makes not sense at all to simply charge into the unknown.
Eh, most of the really horribly broken crap is actually Core, like Shapechange. We're just more used to it being overpowered as hell. :P I think contingent spells can make up for the weaknesses of the druid in duels, though, if they're allowed.
No, the core spells only get broken when going to great lengths to make them so, like somehow metagaming to know about spell-like wish abilities of creatures (even though you'd need a knowledge skill of 10+HD of creature+5 for EVERY bit/piece of information that you want to have, and what you get to know is entirely up to the DM).
Shapechange is similar in that you need to be "familiar" with the creature you turn into. That is quite hard for the rarer creatures that may even not have turned up yet in the campaign. Plus, it can at those levels be countered by magic and non-magic means. Inside and outside of core.
It is with non-core stuff like surprise-getting creatures to turn into, or celerity or the werebeast morph spells, that things can get out of hand.
]or an activatable Anti magic item to get out of forcecage...
For some reason I got this idea in my head that Forcecage, if it was cast outside of the AMF, then AMF wouldn't be able to negate it. I don't quite know why I think this. Can AMF really suppress Forcecage...?
For some reason I got this idea in my head that Forcecage, if it was cast outside of the AMF, then AMF wouldn't be able to negate it. I don't quite know why I think this. Can AMF really suppress Forcecage...?
No.
Yes.
Wrong.
Forcecage has the same properties as a wall of force when it comes to removing one.
Quite simple...point out to the DM the most obvious rule errors in the Lycanthromancer's wizard tactics...
- since you cannot affect anyone else in a time stop, you can not call any creatures in said time stop. Apart from that, the knowledge-arcana skill check is sky-high to know about the creatures called, much higher for any useful information of their abilities. And in no way the wizard gets to control and decide on what the called creatures do - they are run by the DM who decides what they will deem appropriate to fulfill the task for them.
Wow, there's so much wrong with this statement. Gate has no target entry, allows no save, and doesn't check SR. It is completely legal to call in a creature via gate while in a time stop. The called creature can't act until the time stop ends, but you can certainly bring them in.
The DC to know about a creature is 10 + HD. Great Wyrm gold dragons have 41 HD. It is trivially easy for a 20th-level Wizard to succeed on a DC 51 Knowledge (arcana) check. 23 ranks + 12 Int + 2 masterwook tool + take 20 alone beats the DC without adding any spells or magic items which boost skill checks, not to mention things like legend lore (don't even try to argue that half-celestial great wyrm gold dragons aren't legendary).
Gate explicitly gives you complete control over the called creature (unless it is a unique being or a deity). Lycanthromancer was completely within his rights to dictate how the dragons would act.
- having said that, the idea with the ring gates glued to dragons to "safely" cast from behind two walls would not have worked, since, again, you cannot affect anyone in a time stop (apart from your familiar).
His familiar can be outside of the time stop and apply the ring gates as a readied action (in response to the creatures appearing, perhaps).
- with astral projection, you can only leave your body behind on the material plane, not in some extradimensional place. Plus, the moment you copy all of your equipment, your exceed your wbl by the same amount (since you now have two items of everything). A sane DM will not allow that for long, and you appear to have capped wbl for your duels.[
- the contingency effect would have failed since it was not worded exactly enough.
No where in the spell description does it state your body must remain on the Material Plane, nor even that the spell has to be cast from the Material Plane. Moving your body is absolutely allowed within the purview of the spell.
The WBL argument is so retarded I can't honestly believe you meant it as a legitimate argument. WBL is not some magical hard cap on PC wealth. It's a DM guideline on how much loot the PCs should have in order to face level-appropriate challenges in a level-appropriate way.
His contingecy effect was perfectly fine. What about it is unclear? Any action his opponent takes which would directly affect him would trigger the dimension door. So, if his opponent attacked him and missed due to AC or miss chance, it would not go off. If he would have connected, it activates and suddenly he's five feet underground.
- Lastly, do not expect any opponent to be so stupid to simply charge your prismatic wall (or, for a druid, a wall of thorns...). At level 20, they simply turn etheral, duck underneath the walls and attack you. Or they let themselves be dimensiondoored by intelligent items next to you and full attack or lay AMF on you or whatever.
This argument has no bearing on Lycanthromancer's tactics. The fact that his opponent wasn't very skilled is no slight on Lycanthromancer's part.
Also, please explain how a Fighter 20 is going to turn ethereal? Really, I'd love to see this barring custom magic items. Having an intelligent item dimension door you is a horrible idea, considering you cannot act after you have traveled via dimension door. AMF ... well, see below.
A good tactics for your druid against other casters is to get up some AMF effect and use your medium BAB and better hp to melee/grapple them ftw.
AMF is a horrible idea unless you can somehow apply it to your target from a distance. Being inside an AMF shuts off all your spells and magical equipment (including wild shape) while your opponent is flying over your head laughing at you. The assumption that Wizards, Psions, and Sorcerers will be walking anywhere at the level this duel takes place at is ludicrous. Hour/level flight and form-altering powers have been available for many levels. No high-level caster walks anywhere given the opportunity.
PhaedrusXY's beholder Antimagic ray approach is much more elegant, though.
But for that, you must
1) ascertain who/where is your enemy (almost all casters can fool your senses)
2) get next to the caster for close combat or rays (quite challenging at those levels vs foes with extradimensional travel means, high speeds AND contingencies and celerity)
Or try to get the most broken non-core magic yourself (the turtle trick, getting extra actions and/or celerity effects; AND sky-high initiative plus protection vs being surprised).
I fear that in full caster duels druids are at a disadvantage.
On this point, I think you have the sense of it. The problem with Druids in high-level caster duels is that they are super-buff melee beasts but they are somewhat lacking in the kinds of temporal manipulation tricks that are required for this kind of fight. Clerics are somewhat better off in that they can emulate a lot of the Wizard's tricks with the proper domains/miracle. The Druid's best option is to abuse the dire tortoise form to at least be able to act in the surprise round, and then hopefully shift into a form capable of reaching his target. Unfortunately, unless astral projection is banned, I fear the Wizard/Sorcerer will probably win this one in the end simply due to being unassailable in any meaningful way. Magic jar'd clones/simulacrums are another form of defense that will likely be employed, so don't expect to win the fight just because you killed what you thought was your opponent.
Absolutely get your hands on a rod of absorption or two and fill them up before the fight. Use these to cast your buffs so you don't waste real spell slots before the combat. If Craft Contingent Spell is available absolutely utilize it to it's fullest (and expect your opponents to as well, if they have any sense).
Wrong.
Forcecage has the same properties as a wall of force when it comes to removing one.
No. The question was whether AMF suppresses it (which it does), not whether the spell is the same as wall of force when it comes to dispelling it. The AMF spell specifically mentions the spell exceptions to this rule, and forcecage is not among them. The only passage where the forcecage spell makes reference to wall of force is the following: "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation." So, everthing else is different from a wall of force spell as indicated.
Wow, there's so much wrong with this statement. Gate has no target entry, allows no save, and doesn't check SR. It is completely legal to call in a creature via gate while in a time stop. The called creature can't act until the time stop ends, but you can certainly bring them in.
No, there is nothing wrong with my statement - at best it is arguable.
The gate spell says "...you pull the subject through, willing or unwilling...." while the time stop spell does indeed mention "target", but says in the relevant passage: "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."
I'd call a calling effect as described above a spell that harms the creature since it puts it at risk of death (service asked here is "fight for me").
So: no calling spell while in time stop.
The DC to know about a creature is 10 + HD. Great Wyrm gold dragons have 41 HD. It is trivially easy for a 20th-level Wizard to succeed on a DC 51 Knowledge (arcana) check. 23 ranks + 12 Int + 2 masterwook tool + take 20 alone beats the DC without adding any spells or magic items which boost skill checks, not to mention things like legend lore (don't even try to argue that half-celestial great wyrm gold dragons aren't legendary).
You apparently do not realise what a knowledge check to know something about a monster does.
The skill check you described is the BASIC DC for knowing ANYTHING AT ALL about that creature. With a DC 51 the wizard knows ONE useful thing about a Celestial gold great wyrm dragon (for instance, he knows about its existence and that it has 41 HD). This kind of creature, however, has a hundred more interesting details to know about and it is entirely up to the DM what information he gives to you about this extremely obscure creature (provided you did not have first-hand experience yourself, which would be strange with a CR 30 creature at level 20...).
And for every bit of those hundreds more details (AC, creature type, special ability, STR score, items worn usually, alignment etc.), the DC rises by 5.
For the kind of thing Lycanthromancer wants to pull (who as a player simply paged through the Monster manuals for the best creature to call compared to others), the DC likely is around 101 or higher.
Gate explicitly gives you complete control over the called creature (unless it is a unique being or a deity). Lycanthromancer was completely within his rights to dictate how the dragons would act.
No, he was not. "A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you." (note how the spell says "a service" - meaning ONE service, not complete control as per domination). "Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task..."
So, you see? It says "fighting for you in battle". Not “becomes your obedient slave”.
Some more reasons why the gate spell is such an unreliable thing to do high-level combat with:
• The way that creature fights (since its life is also at risk!) is entirely up to the DM who runs it. There is no mention that a great wyrm gold dragon can be commanded around at will by you puny creature with only half its HD. Likely, having arrived at a battle site without any idea what is going on, it will foremost buff up its defenses.
• Neither is there any mention about how much the called creature will put itself into danger to fight for you. Note the difference to summoned creatures where at least it is mentioned that “It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability” (small wonder since a death while being summoned does not result in true death of the creature!)
• And finally, since the creature is run by the DM, it is entirely up to the DM to see how the creature will react to the gate spell used putting it into mortal danger – likely the reaction will not be a favourable one afterwards. And two 41 HD gold dragons are no trifle for a 20th level character.
• Then there is the 1,000 X.P cost paid which basically means you cannot cast the spell at all in case the DM ruled for the duel that the characters have just reached 20th level.
His familiar can be outside of the time stop and apply the ring gates as a readied action (in response to the creatures appearing, perhaps).
And how exactly is a familiar able to apply ring gates on two gold dragons as a standard action at most? And how is it going to survive against a 20th level opponent outside of the time stop who wins initiative?
No where in the spell description does it state your body must remain on the Material Plane, nor even that the spell has to be cast from the Material Plane. Moving your body is absolutely allowed within the purview of the spell.
Check out the second paragraph of the spell description: “You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation.” It can’t get clearer than that.
More interestingly, the act to move the body from the Material Plane into the extra-dimensional space of a bag of holding likely is one of the rare instances that the silver chord can get severed. Lycanthromancer, as such, killed himself during the time stop buffs and lost – ah, the irony!
Additionally, nowhere in the astral projection spell description it is mentioned that your astral body can return to the material plane (you could do it with a plane shift, though).
The WBL argument is so retarded I can't honestly believe you meant it as a legitimate argument. WBL is not some magical hard cap on PC wealth. It's a DM guideline on how much loot the PCs should have in order to face level-appropriate challenges in a level-appropriate way.
It’s odd imo that you think this argument is “retarded” since it makes perfect sense and is entirely RAW. All of a sudden, with one spell, the character has double the amount of items (and could, for instance, equip the fellow pcs with it). Now, in the course of an ongoing campaign/adventure this will not cause the DM to immediately cut down the character’s items (or has the original items robbed or whatever), in particular since the spell says that when forming a new body on a different plane, it is not mentioned that the (doubled astral) items will form there with you. I would rule it such that in a way your material plane items are thus transferred with you to the outer plane of whatever, thus making the item doubling really only temporary (which is I guess the RAI). But for the purpose of a duel? Then, wbl should be strictly followed.
Or, which is the better solution, your Material Plane items become astral with you (and/or you can decide what you wish to take with you to the astral plane).
His contingecy effect was perfectly fine. What about it is unclear? Any action his opponent takes which would directly affect him would trigger the dimension door. So, if his opponent attacked him and missed due to AC or miss chance, it would not go off. If he would have connected, it activates and suddenly he's five feet underground.
Well, how can I explain this to you. Let us look at the contingency effect Lycanthromancer described. It is a typical: "help me when anything bad happens to me" thing, which just does not work:
"set to go off any time my opponent was about to hit me with something that could actually affect me, to teleport me 5' under the ground"
Now, "actually affect" is way too vague, and the spell does not recognise an “opponent” (or it would be some kind of hidden super-true-seeing effect).
Contingency needs to be set exactly.
This argument has no bearing on Lycanthromancer's tactics. The fact that his opponent wasn't very skilled is no slight on Lycanthromancer's part.
It was. Because if you win a 20th level duel because your opponent voluntarily runs into a prismatic sphere, triggering all saving throws in the vague hope that behind it he will somehow be able to do something meaningful does not show anything about the power of a class. Otherwise, Lycanthromancer could have in the same way tried to proclaim fighter uberage after creating a melee wizard of 20th level armed with a staff who would have lost against a fighter exchanging full attacks,
Also, please explain how a Fighter 20 is going to turn ethereal? Really, I'd love to see this barring custom magic items. Having an intelligent item dimension door you is a horrible idea, considering you cannot act after you have traveled via dimension door. AMF ... well, see below.
Ways a fighter can become etheral (in core)
- ring of blinking
- cloak of etheralness
- ring of spell storing with plane shift
- major ring of spell storing with plane shift, etheral jaunt, etheralness, shapechange or wish
- ring of wishes
And the item doing the dimension door for you will mean you are free to act.
AMF is a horrible idea unless you can somehow apply it to your target from a distance. Being inside an AMF shuts off all your spells and magical equipment (including wild shape) while your opponent is flying over your head laughing at you. The assumption that Wizards, Psions, and Sorcerers will be walking anywhere at the level this duel takes place at is ludicrous. Hour/level flight and form-altering powers have been available for many levels. No high-level caster walks anywhere given the opportunity.
AMF is a great idea – provided you know what you are doing. You need to make certain that the opponent is within range before triggering the AMF. There should be ways for the level 20 druid to do exactly that. The druid is better in combat than most casters (medium BAB, likely improved grapple because of his wildshape) while he is inferior in a purely spellcasting match. So this tactics is an obvious idea.
On this point, I think you have the sense of it. The problem with Druids in high-level caster duels is that they are super-buff melee beasts but they are somewhat lacking in the kinds of temporal manipulation tricks that are required for this kind of fight. Clerics are somewhat better off in that they can emulate a lot of the Wizard's tricks with the proper domains/miracle. The Druid's best option is to abuse the dire tortoise form to at least be able to act in the surprise round, and then hopefully shift into a form capable of reaching his target. Unfortunately, unless astral projection is banned, I fear the Wizard/Sorcerer will probably win this one in the end simply due to being unassailable in any meaningful way. Magic jar'd clones/simulacrums are another form of defense that will likely be employed, so don't expect to win the fight just because you killed what you thought was your opponent.
Absolutely get your hands on a rod of absorption or two and fill them up before the fight. Use these to cast your buffs so you don't waste real spell slots before the combat. If Craft Contingent Spell is available absolutely utilize it to it's fullest (and expect your opponents to as well, if they have any sense).
Now, here, at long last we agree. Yes, druids are the worst of the 4 major spellcasters in core, balanced by their better skill points, animal companion and combat ability with wildshape.
And the rods of absorption are a good idea!
So, as the spell doesn't seem to have been banned (or as Snorkasaurous seems to have lost interest), what CAN be done against this tactic? Any wizard in a duel should use it, if it is allowed completely unmodified.
@Duel
I thought it was rather trivial to get access to the spells of other classes via shapechange? Also, from reading these boards, I got the impression that CoDzilla is stronger than Sorcerers, Wizards and Psions. Why are the tips posted concentrating on how to deal with the wizard, then? Isn't the cleric the greater problem?
So, as the spell doesn't seem to have been banned (or as Snorkasaurous seems to have lost interest), what CAN be done against this tactic? Any wizard in a duel should use it, if it is allowed completely unmodified.
Dispel him. Or ignore his projection, and go kill his real body. :P He'd also just "poof" if you walked up to him with an AMF on.
@Duel
I thought it was rather trivial to get access to the spells of other classes via shapechange? Also, from reading these boards, I got the impression that CoDzilla is stronger than Sorcerers, Wizards and Psions. Why are the tips posted concentrating on how to deal with the wizard, then? Isn't the cleric the greater problem?
In a duel, wizards are probably the most powerful. Clerics are second mainly because they can get some of the best wizard spells via domains. As far as getting spells from Shapechange... good luck getting that allowed anywhere, regardless of whatever the "RAW" is (I'm not convinced that's RAW, either...).
No. The question was whether AMF suppresses it (which it does), not whether the spell is the same as wall of force when it comes to dispelling it. The AMF spell specifically mentions the spell exceptions to this rule, and forcecage is not among them. The only passage where the forcecage spell makes reference to wall of force is the following: "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation." So, everthing else is different from a wall of force spell as indicated.
"Certain spells, such as wall of force ..." The list under antimagic field is not exclusive, but that's even irrelevant to my point.
"The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic." Again, an inclusive list. "Like a wall of force, a forcecage resists dispel magic[.]" A wall of force is not specifically resistant to dispel magic. It is immune to all spells except those it specifically mentions (disintegrate and Mordenkainen's disjunction). Forcecage is resistant to dispel magic as per wall of force, thus it inherits the full spell immunity.
No, there is nothing wrong with my statement - at best it is arguable.
The gate spell says "...you pull the subject through, willing or unwilling...." while the time stop spell does indeed mention "target", but says in the relevant passage: "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."
I'd call a calling effect as described above a spell that harms the creature since it puts it at risk of death (service asked here is "fight for me").
So: no calling spell while in time stop.
Invulnerable means something very specific. It means "1 : incapable of being wounded, injured, or harmed 2 : immune to or proof against attack : impregnable" as per Merriam-Webster. The gate spell does nothing to directly cause what it calls harm. Whatever actions it takes later on are irrelevant, the casting of the gate spell is not in and of itself damaging.
You apparently do not realise what a knowledge check to know something about a monster does.
The skill check you described is the BASIC DC for knowing ANYTHING AT ALL about that creature. With a DC 51 the wizard knows ONE useful thing about a Celestial gold great wyrm dragon (for instance, he knows about its existence and that it has 41 HD). This kind of creature, however, has a hundred more interesting details to know about and it is entirely up to the DM what information he gives to you about this extremely obscure creature (provided you did not have first-hand experience yourself, which would be strange with a CR 30 creature at level 20...).
And for every bit of those hundreds more details (AC, creature type, special ability, STR score, items worn usually, alignment etc.), the DC rises by 5.
For the kind of thing Lycanthromancer wants to pull (who as a player simply paged through the Monster manuals for the best creature to call compared to others), the DC likely is around 101 or higher.
I know that it is a 41 HD gold dragon with celestial powers. I have in all likelihood encountered a gold dragon before. I have also probably encountered a half-celestial something, or at the very least a celestial being (Planetars have been bind-able for awhile now, plus celestial animals are available at 1st-level off the summon monster list). In short, I know all I need to know to want to call it: it is a very large dragon with celestial powers. I don't need to know it's specific SR, or it's resistances, or what specific spell-like abilities it possesses. I need to know that it is big and powerful, which is very easy.
Even if you insist that I can't infer that a 41 HD gold dragon with celestial powers is big and powerful (despite having a literally superhuman intellect) then I can just use legend lore to find out more about it.
No, he was not. "A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you." (note how the spell says "a service" - meaning ONE service, not complete control as per domination). "Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task..."
So, you see? It says "fighting for you in battle". Not “becomes your obedient slave”.
Yes, fighting for you in battle. What Lycanthromancer had the dragons do was completely in line with his orders.
Some more reasons why the gate spell is such an unreliable thing to do high-level combat with:
• The way that creature fights (since its life is also at risk!) is entirely up to the DM who runs it. There is no mention that a great wyrm gold dragon can be commanded around at will by you puny creature with only half its HD. Likely, having arrived at a battle site without any idea what is going on, it will foremost buff up its defenses.
If the service I command it to perform is "Destroy my enemies in this battle" it has to do exactly that. And yes, there is in fact explicit mention that a great wyrm gold dragon has to listen to the puny creature with only half it's HD because gate doesn't give it a choice. If I tell it to defeat my enemies in this battle, it will attempt to do exactly that. It doesn't get a choice in the matter.
• Neither is there any mention about how much the called creature will put itself into danger to fight for you. Note the difference to summoned creatures where at least it is mentioned that “It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability” (small wonder since a death while being summoned does not result in true death of the creature!)
Again, it doesn't have a choice in the matter. If my command is to defeat my enemies in this battle, that is what it has to attempt to do. Gate doesn't allow it to negotiate or bargain for an immediate task.
• And finally, since the creature is run by the DM, it is entirely up to the DM to see how the creature will react to the gate spell used putting it into mortal danger – likely the reaction will not be a favourable one afterwards. And two 41 HD gold dragons are no trifle for a 20th level character.
I guarantee you no creature with half a brain is going to casually attack something that just dragged it across the multiverse and compelled it's servitude. The kind of display of power makes you sit up and notice. So no, they won't immediately turn around and attack the Wizard (and indeed they can't, because as soon as the spell ends they are returned to their plane of origin).
• Then there is the 1,000 X.P cost paid which basically means you cannot cast the spell at all in case the DM ruled for the duel that the characters have just reached 20th level.
What are you talking about? Unless the DM says that you cannot use abilities which expend XP you can spend however much XP you want in preparation or as part of the duel. The difference in power between a 19th-level Wizard and a 20th-level Wizard is miniscule at best.
And how exactly is a familiar able to apply ring gates on two gold dragons as a standard action at most? And how is it going to survive against a 20th level opponent outside of the time stop who wins initiative?
The familiar is likely one that can fly (the raven is really the only decent familiar choice out of the basic list; the Imp is pretty much the best of the Improved list) and is most likely under the effects of polymorph/shapechange anyway. So, the familiar readies it's action to fly over and glue the ring gates to the dragon's head when they appear. They appear, readied action goes off (which interrupts whatever action is currently occuring, as per immediate actions) and the familiar flies over and sticks the ring gate on the dragon's forehead. It might not be able to get both of them in the same round, but that's not really relevant. It can certainly get one of them, and then do the other one the following round.
Check out the second paragraph of the spell description: “You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation.” It can’t get clearer than that.
Yes, because clearly if you cast the spell while on Elysium, your body falls through a planar hold back to the Prime. The most logical way to read that sentence is that the authors assumed that you would be casting astral projection from the Material Plane because that is the most likely place for the PCs to be adventuring. This kind of author bias is common throughout the core books (and later books as well).
More interestingly, the act to move the body from the Material Plane into the extra-dimensional space of a bag of holding likely is one of the rare instances that the silver chord can get severed. Lycanthromancer, as such, killed himself during the time stop buffs and lost – ah, the irony!
Additionally, nowhere in the astral projection spell description it is mentioned that your astral body can return to the material plane (you could do it with a plane shift, though).
No it wouldn't. The rules are specific as to what can sever the silver cord. A githyanki silver sword or an astral dreadnought. That's it, until something else is published with the ability to attack the silver cord.
You can absolutely manifest to the Material Plane from the Astral Plane. "Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these otehr planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane,) forming a new physical body (and equipment on the plane of existance you have chosen to enter". The Material Plane is one of those planes that the Astral Plane touches on. Ergo, you can manifest to it.
It’s odd imo that you think this argument is “retarded” since it makes perfect sense and is entirely RAW. All of a sudden, with one spell, the character has double the amount of items (and could, for instance, equip the fellow pcs with it). Now, in the course of an ongoing campaign/adventure this will not cause the DM to immediately cut down the character’s items (or has the original items robbed or whatever), in particular since the spell says that when forming a new body on a different plane, it is not mentioned that the (doubled astral) items will form there with you. I would rule it such that in a way your material plane items are thus transferred with you to the outer plane of whatever, thus making the item doubling really only temporary (which is I guess the RAI). But for the purpose of a duel? Then, wbl should be strictly followed.
Or, which is the better solution, your Material Plane items become astral with you (and/or you can decide what you wish to take with you to the astral plane).
Wow. The spell specifically states that you create new equipment, not bring along your existing gear. "[F]orming a new physical body (and equipment" is pretty damn specific. You can rule however you like, but any such decision is a house rule and has no place in a CO discussion like this.
The WBL argument is retarded because WBL is not a hard rule on how much wealth the PCs can ever have. It's a DM guideline for how much wealth they should have in order to maintain the ECL-CR system (which is broken anyway, but that's a completely different discussion). You don't mysteriously lose cash if you are exactly at the WBL for your ECL and then go and pick up a gold piece. If you honestly can't see this, then I'm not sure what else to say.
Well, how can I explain this to you. Let us look at the contingency effect Lycanthromancer described. It is a typical: "help me when anything bad happens to me" thing, which just does not work:
"set to go off any time my opponent was about to hit me with something that could actually affect me, to teleport me 5' under the ground"
Now, "actually affect" is way too vague, and the spell does not recognise an “opponent” (or it would be some kind of hidden super-true-seeing effect).
Contingency needs to be set exactly.
Actually effect is not vague. It means "if his action would affect me." Compare it to a contingecy such as "if my opponent would attack me". In such a situation, the contingency would go off regardless of whether the foe missed or not. In Lycanthromancer's case, he didn't want to waste a contingency when his opponent missed him (which he was likely to do, given the number of spells which can impose miss chances and their ability to stack. A low-level Wizard can get miss chances of 98% pretty easily).
It was. Because if you win a 20th level duel because your opponent voluntarily runs into a prismatic sphere, triggering all saving throws in the vague hope that behind it he will somehow be able to do something meaningful does not show anything about the power of a class. Otherwise, Lycanthromancer could have in the same way tried to proclaim fighter uberage after creating a melee wizard of 20th level armed with a staff who would have lost against a fighter exchanging full attacks,
The point about Lycanthromancer's tactics are his defenses. The fact that his opponent was dumb enough to kill himself on Lycanthromancer's defenses without him even having to cast an offensive spell is just gravy.
Ways a fighter can become etheral (in core)
- ring of blinking
- cloak of etheralness
- ring of spell storing with plane shift
- major ring of spell storing with plane shift, etheral jaunt, etheralness, shapechange or wish
- ring of wishes
I stand corrected.
And the item doing the dimension door for you will mean you are free to act.
Dimension door makes no stipulations that the effect is limited to the caster.
AMF is a great idea – provided you know what you are doing. You need to make certain that the opponent is within range before triggering the AMF. There should be ways for the level 20 druid to do exactly that. The druid is better in combat than most casters (medium BAB, likely improved grapple because of his wildshape) while he is inferior in a purely spellcasting match. So this tactics is an obvious idea.
The Druid won't be wild shaped with an antimagic field on. Additonally, if he tries to grapple the Wizard before activating the antimagic field, he runs into freedom of movement. If he activates the antimagic field first, the Wizard will fall out of range and his spells will re-activate (because the Wizard is guaranteed to be flying). Beyond all that though, the Druid still has no response for a contingency such as "if my opponent gets within 25 ft. of me, dimension door me X distance" or a familiar with a readied action and a wand of dimension door. Until he does, antimagic field is still useless. Less so for the Druid than the Fighter (which is where it comes up all the time as a tactic), but still not a Wizard-killer like people argue.
"Certain spells, such as wall of force ..." The list under antimagic field is not exclusive, but that's even irrelevant to my point.
I guess it is also irrelevant for mine;)
"The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic." Again, an inclusive list. "Like a wall of force, a forcecage resists dispel magic[.]" A wall of force is not specifically resistant to dispel magic. It is immune to all spells except those it specifically mentions (disintegrate and Mordenkainen's disjunction). Forcecage is resistant to dispel magic as per wall of force, thus it inherits the full spell immunity.
I see your point. But I think the explicit wording of the AMF trumps the implicit wording of the force cage spell. Also,...
this comic strip appears to support my case :P
Invulnerable means something very specific. It means "1 : incapable of being wounded, injured, or harmed 2 : immune to or proof against attack : impregnable" as per Merriam-Webster. The gate spell does nothing to directly cause what it calls harm. Whatever actions it takes later on are irrelevant, the casting of the gate spell is not in and of itself damaging.
Again, I think both our interpretations are possible, since the rules lack a clear definition of "invulnerability" and we need to resort to non-game dictionaries to gauge whether the desginers thought about certain definitions when they wrote this. In this case, I'd advise all DMs to go with my interpretation since otherwise the combo may be too broken too quickly.
I maintain that "harmed" encompasses drawing someone across the multiverse into the midst of danger. You yourself appear to think this entails something threatening below (able to make wary even a 41 HD creature).
I know that it is a 41 HD gold dragon with celestial powers. I have in all likelihood encountered a gold dragon before. I have also probably encountered a half-celestial something, or at the very least a celestial being (Planetars have been bind-able for awhile now, plus celestial animals are available at 1st-level off the summon monster list). In short, I know all I need to know to want to call it: it is a very large dragon with celestial powers. I don't need to know it's specific SR, or it's resistances, or what specific spell-like abilities it possesses. I need to know that it is big and powerful, which is very easy.
Yes, knowing with DC 51 that something is big and powerful is easy. Knowing whether such a powerful being is maybe resistant to this kind of magic, may be not obliged to obey/difficult to control for some reasons, has a certain kind of alignment more likely to cause bad feelings after the calling :D , has powerful magics to find out more about the wizard and return later with a vengeance etc - all this is an entirely different story.
As such, Lycanthromancer KNEW as a player what stats and powers and drawbacks the creatures he called have and thus did metagaming.
Imagine a game where the DM plays in a core environment but said he entirely created the monsters himself. Would you just call a 41 HD being that is likely quite powerful just because you can? I do not think so (it would be something akin to Cthuluian tactics which are not that great for casters...
)Even if you insist that I can't infer that a 41 HD gold dragon with celestial powers is big and powerful (despite having a literally superhuman intellect) then I can just use legend lore to find out more about it.
Not against a mind blanked one (which is likely fairly standard for those levels), but you might get lucky to hit the one not so protected...
Yes, fighting for you in battle. What Lycanthromancer had the dragons do was completely in line with his orders.
No it was not since he was he one who gave them round-by-round orders, which the gate spell does not allow.
If the service I command it to perform is "Destroy my enemies in this battle" it has to do exactly that. And yes, there is in fact explicit mention that a great wyrm gold dragon has to listen to the puny creature with only half it's HD because gate doesn't give it a choice. If I tell it to defeat my enemies in this battle, it will attempt to do exactly that. It doesn't get a choice in the matter.
It does not get a choice in the matter of providing the service (fight for me/destroy that one over there). But it certainly can do whatever it likes to fulfill that service. And if it thinks it should buff first for some rounds for its own safety, it will do exactly that.
Again, it doesn't have a choice in the matter. If my command is to defeat my enemies in this battle, that is what it has to attempt to do. Gate doesn't allow it to negotiate or bargain for an immediate task.
It does not, true, but again: the way it does that, and also how much danger it risks, is entirely up to that creature.
I guarantee you no creature with half a brain is going to casually attack something that just dragged it across the multiverse and compelled it's servitude. The kind of display of power makes you sit up and notice. So no, they won't immediately turn around and attack the Wizard (and indeed they can't, because as soon as the spell ends they are returned to their plane of origin).
And I guarantee you that most creatures (certainly these gold dragons) will have enough spellcraft skill, as well as the gate spells themselves so that they know that even a puny mortal of level 17 (or a candle of invocation user) may be the one who calls them. They can deal with those easily - and certainly they will not "immediately turn around" - they will simply return later for vengeance (DM's choice).
What are you talking about? Unless the DM says that you cannot use abilities which expend XP you can spend however much XP you want in preparation or as part of the duel. The difference in power between a 19th-level Wizard and a 20th-level Wizard is miniscule at best.
You cannot expand XP for spell components, if it would take you below your minimum XP for the level. That is the reason why many wizard players wish to have more XP than their level for duels so they can do the permanent buffs, XP spells and/or create items themselves.
And the difference is not miniscule, since a 19th level core wizard would no longer be able to call 41 HD creatures...
The familiar is likely one that can fly (the raven is really the only decent familiar choice out of the basic list; the Imp is pretty much the best of the Improved list) and is most likely under the effects of polymorph/shapechange anyway. So, the familiar readies it's action to fly over and glue the ring gates to the dragon's head when they appear. They appear, readied action goes off (which interrupts whatever action is currently occuring, as per immediate actions) and the familiar flies over and sticks the ring gate on the dragon's forehead. It might not be able to get both of them in the same round, but that's not really relevant. It can certainly get one of them, and then do the other one the following round.
A flying familiar? Oh nos! A 20th level character is not going to care, very much...the major buffs are gone on the familiar the moment the wizard like Lycanthromancer turtles in his walls while in the time stop. The moment he stays, until the famliar is done, he gets attacked by the opponent.
And btw, the familiar cannot ready an action before its turn in the normal initiative order.
Yes, because clearly if you cast the spell while on Elysium, your body falls through a planar hold back to the Prime. The most logical way to read that sentence is that the authors assumed that you would be casting astral projection from the Material Plane because that is the most likely place for the PCs to be adventuring. This kind of author bias is common throughout the core books (and later books as well).
The author bias does not matter, although a DM certainly will adjust outsiders native to other planes to have their "home planes" where they leave their body elsewhere.
No it wouldn't. The rules are specific as to what can sever the silver cord. A githyanki silver sword or an astral dreadnought. That's it, until something else is published with the ability to attack the silver cord.
A githyanki silver sword or astral dreadnought is not even part of the core rules, so how can they be the exceptions the spell mentions? No, it needs a bit of DM logic, but it is quite obvious how the chord can snap:
- AMF touches it
- the body is moved to another plane/extradimensional space
- everything that affects incorporal stuff (like magic weapons, etc.), since the silver chord is "incorporal"
You can absolutely manifest to the Material Plane from the Astral Plane. "Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these otehr planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane,) forming a new physical body (and equipment on the plane of existance you have chosen to enter". The Material Plane is one of those planes that the Astral Plane touches on. Ergo, you can manifest to it.
Yes, as you quoted: OTHER planes. If there is an "other", than there must be something this other refers to - in this case the material plane.
And you do not form your equipment with you the moment you enter a new plane by RAW, since it is nowhere mentioned there (odd, since it is explicitly mentioned when you becom astral).
Wow. The spell specifically states that you create new equipment, not bring along your existing gear. "[F]orming a new physical body (and equipment" is pretty damn specific. You can rule however you like, but any such decision is a house rule and has no place in a CO discussion like this.
Yes, I'd houserule it before players make the main use of the spell are stranded in the Nine Hells without any equipment and naked. Similarly, though, I'd not allow double item tricks.
The WBL argument is retarded because WBL is not a hard rule on how much wealth the PCs can ever have. It's a DM guideline for how much wealth they should have in order to maintain the ECL-CR system (which is broken anyway, but that's a completely different discussion). You don't mysteriously lose cash if you are exactly at the WBL for your ECL and then go and pick up a gold piece. If you honestly can't see this, then I'm not sure what else to say.
I can see this - and it is almost exactly what I also said: The wbl is not a hard rule, but a guideline. But we draw different conclusions.
Why allow one side double items in a pvp situation? Makes no sense to me. And, for once, Lycanthromancer's tactics is not that much affected by this.
But I'll try to sum up this astral projection trick thing: this spell is meant to be used for extraplanar travel, not to have more items as backup and certainly not to duel and adventure without any risk.
If someone believes he/she has found a loophole to exploit for power-duels, by all means, it should be tried. But in this case, the duty to 100% prove the RAW of is that of the "power abuser":D, and not that of the DM or other players. This also applies imo to attempts at broken gate spell interpetations.
Actually effect is not vague. It means "if his action would affect me." Compare it to a contingecy such as "if my opponent would attack me". In such a situation, the contingency would go off regardless of whether the foe missed or not. In Lycanthromancer's case, he didn't want to waste a contingency when his opponent missed him (which he was likely to do, given the number of spells which can impose miss chances and their ability to stack. A low-level Wizard can get miss chances of 98% pretty easily).
Affect is WAY to vague - since somebody hitting a friend of you also "affects" you or your life. I know that Lycanthromancer wants to avoid keeping the contingency as limited as intended, but that is not the way to do it.
And again, the contingency spells CANNOT recognise opponents, or tell friends from foes.
The point about Lycanthromancer's tactics are his defenses. The fact that his opponent was dumb enough to kill himself on Lycanthromancer's defenses without him even having to cast an offensive spell is just gravy.
It was not just gravy, it made the whole excercise pointless (and therefore gave no proof at all for Lycantrhomancer's point, for a better maxed fighter at level 20 would have even survived in case all his rules misperceptions and broken interpretations would have worked).
Basically, without all the tricks that we so vehemently discussed the fighter would still have lost, just because he charged a prismatic sphere ("look...nice colours...!":P )
I stand corrected.
OK.
Dimension door makes no stipulations that the effect is limited to the caster.
It does. It always refers to "you", and "you" always means the caster in the spell description when it comes to effects. And an intelligent item is played by the DM just like any other npc.
The Druid won't be wild shaped with an antimagic field on. Additonally, if he tries to grapple the Wizard before activating the antimagic field, he runs into freedom of movement. If he activates the antimagic field first, the Wizard will fall out of range and his spells will re-activate (because the Wizard is guaranteed to be flying). Beyond all that though, the Druid still has no response for a contingency such as "if my opponent gets within 25 ft. of me, dimension door me X distance" or a familiar with a readied action and a wand of dimension door. Until he does, antimagic field is still useless. Less so for the Druid than the Fighter (which is where it comes up all the time as a tactic), but still not a Wizard-killer like people argue.
It is so simple imo. A character with better combat abilities than another in an AMF could make great use of AMF. The BAB and hp and weapon advantage of the druid does not go away when he loses wildshape in an AMF.
Meanwhile, a contingency is not foolproof because the first one you mentioned can get easily triggered by the animal companion, and any contingency set to someone being able to come within 10ft will simply be suppressed. Plus, a familiar will also have to set the readied action to a certain event ("I'll cast dimension door the moment the druid comes within 15ft", only to be surprised by the animal companion rushing in from the side.)
AMF is a great wizard/sorcerer-killer since those classes almost entirely depend on magic. The tricky part is to get that close to the wizard in the first place :D
Plus, the OP may prefer to use entirely druid methods to overcome his foes...and so far only this strange turtle shapechange trick appears to have a chance this way. Although - maybe foresight and a belt of battle can also work for the druid.
I guess it is also irrelevant for mine;)
I see your point. But I think the explicit wording of the AMF trumps the implicit wording of the force cage spell. Also,...
this comic strip appears to support my case :P
What part of inclusive list do you not understand? Antimagic field presents an inclusive list of spells that it does not affect. It does not say "These spells and only these spells forever and ever!". It directs you to see the individual spell descriptions for further info. I have shown how forcecage has to inherit wall of force's immunity by RAW (and even RAI it makes perfect sense).
OoTS, while a great comic, is not a rules source. Rich Burlew himself has said on his forums that the rules of the game are subject to the story.
Again, I think both our interpretations are possible, since the rules lack a clear definition of "invulnerability" and we need to resort to non-game dictionaries to gauge whether the desginers thought about certain definitions when they wrote this. In this case, I'd advise all DMs to go with my interpretation since otherwise the combo may be too broken too quickly.
I maintain that "harmed" encompasses drawing someone across the multiverse into the midst of danger. You yourself appear to think this entails something threatening below (able to make wary even a 41 HD creature).
The game doesn't have to come up with a different definition for the word because it's already a word in the English language, which the game is written in. Your argument is in the same vein as the "it doesn't say that I can't keep walking around when I'm dead!" or "it doesn't specify that humans can't have 47 arms and 23 heads" arguments. At some point, understanding of the basic language in which the game is written is necessary to make sense of things. This is called Practical Optimization.
Yes, knowing with DC 51 that something is big and powerful is easy. Knowing whether such a powerful being is maybe resistant to this kind of magic, may be not obliged to obey/difficult to control for some reasons, has a certain kind of alignment more likely to cause bad feelings after the calling :D , has powerful magics to find out more about the wizard and return later with a vengeance etc - all this is an entirely different story.
See, gate offers neither save nor spell resistance, so it doesn't matter if the dragon is immune to magic - because immunity to magic is simply SR infinity. It doesn't matter if it's saves are infinite, because it never gets to roll them. I don't need to know about these sorts of things, because I know that the spell I am using doesn't care.
As such, Lycanthromancer KNEW as a player what stats and powers and drawbacks the creatures he called have and thus did metagaming.
Imagine a game where the DM plays in a core environment but said he entirely created the monsters himself. Would you just call a 41 HD being that is likely quite powerful just because you can? I do not think so (it would be something akin to Cthuluian tactics which are not that great for casters...
The premise of this fight was that this was an event that was the culmination of his character's existence. He was literally born for this fight. So, yes, I think it's perfectly logical to pull out all the stops and do anything you can to make sure you win.
Hell, any duel scenario makes this the logical practice. In a regular D&D game, sure, you'd be more careful. In a battle to the death, who cares if some dragon might come knocking on your door in a couple weeks because you called it to fight for you? You've got powerful opponents trying to kill you right now.
Not against a mind blanked one (which is likely fairly standard for those levels), but you might get lucky to hit the one not so protected...
I don't need to know about a specific half-celestial great wyrm gold dragon. I need to know about half-celestial great wyrm gold dragons. Legend lore will tell me all I need to know about some half-celestial great wyrm gold dragon somewhere, which is good enough for me. Or are you arguing that every single such creature is protected by mind blank 24/7/365, despite their being an infinite number of them?
No it was not since he was he one who gave them round-by-round orders, which the gate spell does not allow.
Again, you have direct, irresistible command over the creature. We don't know what Lycanthromancer's command was in this case. "Destroy that creature immediately" will in fact make it attempt to do just that.
It does not get a choice in the matter of providing the service (fight for me/destroy that one over there). But it certainly can do whatever it likes to fulfill that service. And if it thinks it should buff first for some rounds for its own safety, it will do exactly that.
See above.
It does not, true, but again: the way it does that, and also how much danger it risks, is entirely up to that creature.
It is forced to fulfill the service. If that service is "attempt to destroy that creature to the best of your abilities" it doesn't get several rounds to buff. It gets to open fire with it's biggest offensive powers.
And I guarantee you that most creatures (certainly these gold dragons) will have enough spellcraft skill, as well as the gate spells themselves so that they know that even a puny mortal of level 17 (or a candle of invocation user) may be the one who calls them. They can deal with those easily - and certainly they will not "immediately turn around" - they will simply return later for vengeance (DM's choice).
That's fine. That leads to more adventures, etc. The practical impact on this fight or even the near future after it is zero, which is all that matters in this case. Duels are not regular D&D. You do things in duels that you would never do in regular D&D (like burn all your spells on this one fight).
You cannot expand XP for spell components, if it would take you below your minimum XP for the level. That is the reason why many wizard players wish to have more XP than their level for duels so they can do the permanent buffs, XP spells and/or create items themselves.
You could absolutely create a magic item and reduce your level. A scroll of gate created by a 20th-level Wizard works just as well as a gate spell being cast for this duel. Regardless, Lycanthromancer had the XP to spare, so this point is irrelevant.
And the difference is not miniscule, since a 19th level core wizard would no longer be able to call 41 HD creatures...
Yes, because clearly no creature of 40 HD would be just as suitable. Really, do you think this point hinges on calling half-celestial great wyrm gold dragons specifically? That was a random, powerful creature. Any random creature of sufficient power would do. Heck, a Solar would do and not even strain the Wizard's HD limit for a single creature.
A flying familiar? Oh nos! A 20th level character is not going to care, very much...the major buffs are gone on the familiar the moment the wizard like Lycanthromancer turtles in his walls while in the time stop. The moment he stays, until the famliar is done, he gets attacked by the opponent.
A flying familiar can apply the ring gates. That was what this point was about, was it not? I don't care whether the Fighter cares about the familiar, I care about whether the familiar can stick the ring gate on the dragon's forehead.
And btw, the familiar cannot ready an action before its turn in the normal initiative order.
However, assuming that the familiar has readied his action from the previous round it will carry over into this turn. Whether the round in which the action was readied was a combat round or not is irrelevant; the familiar is prepared (and quite possibly has been prepared for quite some time) to slap the ring gate onto a dragon's forehead when it appears.
The author bias does not matter, although a DM certainly will adjust outsiders native to other planes to have their "home planes" where they leave their body elsewhere.
The author bias does matter in this situation, as it directly relates to interpreting the text of the spell. For further evidence, look at the Nightmare. If you can only utilize astral projection from the Material Plane, then Nightmares can't use their supernatural ability at all. Logic dictates that we simply take this as an example of author bias (regarding the viewpoint of the reader) and simply ignore the reference. Since the spell has no language whatsoever that forbids it from being cast on planes other than the Material, we can safely assume it can in fact be used from any plane.
A githyanki silver sword or astral dreadnought is not even part of the core rules, so how can they be the exceptions the spell mentions? No, it needs a bit of DM logic, but it is quite obvious how the chord can snap:
Githyanki silver swords are absolutely core. They are in the Monster Manual, in the Githyanki section. The Astral Dreadnought was written with a specific ability to sever silver cords.
- AMF touches it
Antimagic field suppresses the spell, which would be the equivalent of dispelling it, which simply sends the caster back to their body. It doesn't snap the cord.
- the body is moved to another plane/extradimensional space
Again, where in the rules anywhere does it state this? Oh, right.
- everything that affects incorporal stuff (like magic weapons, etc.), since the silver chord is "incorporal"
Ah, yes. This argument. *sigh* I hate having to dispel this argument again (at least Aharon was kind enough to see the light at the end). Tell me, in the spell description, does it give any kind of statistics for attacking the silver cord anywhere? No. Do you know where those statistics are listed? Under the githyanki silver sword in the Monster Manual, which has an explicit stated ability that allows it to attack astral silver cords. That's it.
Yes, as you quoted: OTHER planes. If there is an "other", than there must be something this other refers to - in this case the material plane.
And you do not form your equipment with you the moment you enter a new plane by RAW, since it is nowhere mentioned there (odd, since it is explicitly mentioned when you becom astral).
"Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter." You have to either be blind or intentionally mis-interpreting the text in order to actually make the arguments you just did.
Yes, I'd houserule it before players make the main use of the spell are stranded in the Nine Hells without any equipment and naked. Similarly, though, I'd not allow double item tricks.
Wonderful. Your house rule has absolutely no bearing on a CO discussion.
I can see this - and it is almost exactly what I also said: The wbl is not a hard rule, but a guideline. But we draw different conclusions.
Why allow one side double items in a pvp situation? Makes no sense to me. And, for once, Lycanthromancer's tactics is not that much affected by this.
Why allow it? Because the Wizard has class features that say he can do exactly that. Why allow the Fighter to make more than 2 iterative attacks per round? The Wizard can't do that. Why allow the Fighter to wear armor? The Wizard can't do that.
But I'll try to sum up this astral projection trick thing: this spell is meant to be used for extraplanar travel, not to have more items as backup and certainly not to duel and adventure without any risk.
If someone believes he/she has found a loophole to exploit for power-duels, by all means, it should be tried. But in this case, the duty to 100% prove the RAW of is that of the "power abuser":D, and not that of the DM or other players. This also applies imo to attempts at broken gate spell interpetations.
I don't even know where you are going with this. I have provided clear, consistent evidence that every use of this spell that has been proposed is completely within the RAW. Whether that was the author's intent for the spell is irrelevant, the RAW says you get duplicate items.
Affect is WAY to vague - since somebody hitting a friend of you also "affects" you or your life. I know that Lycanthromancer wants to avoid keeping the contingency as limited as intended, but that is not the way to do it.
And again, the contingency spells CANNOT recognise opponents, or tell friends from foes.
"Directly affect" is not vague. It means if something directly affects your person. Someone touching my friend does not directly affect my person. Your example is in fact a total straw man. Congratulations, you can burn scarecrows.
If I visualize my opponent (in this case the Fighter) when I set my contingency, that is who the spell will trigger off of. That is all that I need to do. Considering the conditions for the duel, that is a perfectly valid contingency.
It was not just gravy, it made the whole excercise pointless (and therefore gave no proof at all for Lycantrhomancer's point, for a better maxed fighter at level 20 would have even survived in case all his rules misperceptions and broken interpretations would have worked).
Basically, without all the tricks that we so vehemently discussed the fighter would still have lost, just because he charged a prismatic sphere ("look...nice colours...!":P )
Again, this has any bearing on the discussion ... how? You have yet to show how the Fighter would bypass his defenses. Until you do, this point is worthless.
It does. It always refers to "you", and "you" always means the caster in the spell description when it comes to effects. And an intelligent item is played by the DM just like any other npc.
It is so simple imo. A character with better combat abilities than another in an AMF could make great use of AMF. The BAB and hp and weapon advantage of the druid does not go away when he loses wildshape in an AMF.
Meanwhile, a contingency is not foolproof because the first one you mentioned can get easily triggered by the animal companion, and any contingency set to someone being able to come within 10ft will simply be suppressed.
It gets triggered by the animal companion ... which means I am now several hundred feet away (certainly well out of range of the druid's movement). Mission accomplished. I can re-activate my contingency next round, anyway.
Plus, a familiar will also have to set the readied action to a certain event ("I'll cast dimension door the moment the druid comes within 15ft", only to be surprised by the animal companion rushing in from the side.)
Or the familiar can have the readied action "whenever someone gets within 30 ft. of my master (who's shoulder I am sitting on), I activate my wand of dimension door". You can always choose not to take the readied action and maintain it should someone approach whom the Wizard doesn't mind being that close. Readied actions are less specific than contingency, which is why it's a good first line of defense.
AMF is a great wizard/sorcerer-killer since those classes almost entirely depend on magic. The tricky part is to get that close to the wizard in the first place :D
Yes, they depend on magic. You have yet to demonstrate how the Wizard is being caught inside the antimagic field in a manner that he can't easily escape from. I've yet to touch on several other defenses against antimagic field. An eight-foot tall, five-foot wide adamantine cone that's been shrunk down with shrink item to resemble a hat works wonders. As soon as the antimagic field gets in range, the hat un-shrinks, blocking the antimagic field. Voila! This is, of course, for the situations in which the duel takes place with both contenders on the ground, which is an arbitrary restriction.
"Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation"
this is the only way RAW that a forcecage acts like a wall of force, just because it acts like one in this instance does not mean that it gets everything a wall of force gets (a specific mention of not being effected by AMF for example)
AMF does not dispell spells in its area, it mearly suppresses them, meaning that the resisting dispell as a wall of force does nothing for it in this instance.
Also, no other spell says in it's description(as forcecage does not) that it is suppressed in an AMF, so should we take that to mean they to are not suppressed by it?
This is just an outside unbiased opinion on the AMF, not a shot at your entire argument, because I see the rest of your argument as the closest to correct (though maybe not the player choosing actions for a gated dragon, but only because I remember that it didnt attack first, it attempted to sunder a magic item)
Malkavon, I think you are taking some liberties with forcecage getting all the abilities of a wall of force. Like you said, just because it dosent say it dosent get them, dosent mean it does (lol)
"Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation"
this is the only way RAW that a forcecage acts like a wall of force, just because it acts like one in this instance does not mean that it gets everything a wall of force gets (a specific mention of not being effected by AMF for example)
AMF does not dispell spells in its area, it mearly suppresses them, meaning that the resisting dispell as a wall of force does nothing for it in this instance.
Also, no other spell says in it's description(as forcecage does not) that it is suppressed in an AMF, so should we take that to mean they to are not suppressed by it?
The reason forcecage inherits the immunity to antimagic field (and everything else) is because of the wording. Wall of force isn't specifically immune to antimagic field (or dispel magic, which is the central point for this argument), it is immune to every spell except those listed in the spell description for wall of force as being able to affect it (disintegrate, Mordenkainen's disjunction). Dispel magic is simply an example spell (note the "including" that precedes it). Because of this, forcecage must inherit the full list if it is immune to dispel magic "like a wall of force". There is no other logical way to read the text.
What any of the other spells say in their description is irrelevant. We look at the text, and see that it makes no mention of antimagic field, which means that whatever antimagic field says holds. However, since wall of force does have further information (specifically regarding it's immunity to spells other than disintegrate and Mordenkainen's disjunction), we have to take that into account. Forcecage doesn't have to make any mention of antimagic field because it is simply inheriting the immunity from wall of force (as shown above).
This is just an outside unbiased opinion on the AMF, not a shot at your entire argument, because I see the rest of your argument as the closest to correct (though maybe not the player choosing actions for a gated dragon, but only because I remember that it didnt attack first, it attempted to sunder a magic item)
Anyone is free to join in this discussion. Themistokles is the only person consistently arguing his point, so I'm simply rebutting him.
Incidentally, Lycanthromancer had the dragons using implosion initially. They turned to sundering when it was discovered that he had a rod of absorption, trying to destroy it (a logical move).
If it said acts like wall of force, or even if it quoted the entire thing, I would agree.
Wall of force
"and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic"
forcecage
"Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic" <-- dispel is the only one mentioned.
--------------------------------------------
On the other point, I forgot that they used implosion first, so I agree with you...though I think it would be a wise DM choice to play the monsters gated since an individual one not taking specific actions that it is ordered can choose to "kill that guy" however it chooses with its (probobly better than implosion) spells ect.
ideally you want to be a race with natural flying, so if the enemy gets an upper hand you can cast anti magic on yourself and still fly.
stuff
*sigh*
A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
Now, how is wall of force resistant to dispel magic? By being immune to most spells, correct?
This powerful spell brings into being an immobile, invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force (your choice).
Creatures within the area are caught and contained unless they are too big to fit inside, in which case the spell automatically fails. Teleportation and other forms of astral travel provide a means of escape, but the force walls or bars extend into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel.
Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation.
Now, forcecage resists dispel magic like wall of force does. This means that in order for forcecage to resist dispel magic, it must do so in the same manner as a wall of force.
Thus, forcecage must resist dispel magic by being immune to most spells, exactly as wall of force. This is the only way to read the text in a logical manner consistent with the RAW. There is no partial transference. Forcecage resists dispel magic as per wall of force (which is immune to dispel magic as a subset of it's general immunity to most spells), thus forcecage MUST inherit the rest of the immunity.
"Windowless Cell
This version of the spell produces a 10-foot cube with no way in and no way out. Solid walls of force form its six sides"
Since they went out of thier way to mention "solid" walls of force for this use of the spell, it is safe to assume that the barred version is also a wall of force effect, and follows the same rules.
Thanks for the discussion.
In my view, the two major strategies by Lycanthromancer (time stop and gate for offense, time stop and ring gates for defense) are not backed up by the RAW - simply because the spell descriptions of time stop and gate leave way too much interpretation. For me, going to great lengths to choose the broken interpretation neither leads to good enjoyment of the regular game, nor to meaningful class power assessments in duels.
And that you yourself choose deviate from the RAW is nicely illustrated by how you interpret the force cage / AMF question:
What part of inclusive list do you not understand? Antimagic field presents an inclusive list of spells that it does not affect. It does not say "These spells and only these spells forever and ever!". It directs you to see the individual spell descriptions for further info. I have shown how forcecage has to inherit wall of force's immunity by RAW (and even RAI it makes perfect sense).
The force cage spell does not provide an inclusive list. It says: "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation."
You see? You simply interpret into this sentence that simply because the text refers to similarities to a wall of force, everything else of a wall of force also applies. But it does not.
The spell does not even mention AMF. So the only RAW we can follow here is what the AMF spell itself says. And it only mentions explicitly wall of force and asks to check for individual spell descriptions (and the forcecage is not RAW explicit enough).
Now OF COURSE as a houserule I'd probably interpret it the same way as you do. But it remains an interpretation. Although I must admit that Agahi_Renem provided a good point - that the mention of "walls of force" gives a clue that it is indeed like a wall of force (although the terms are not written in italics, like specific spells are - so it is open to RAW interpretations still).
It is all the more remarkable that you argue like this on the forcecage issue, but then criticise me for doing something similar with the gate spell.
OoTS, while a great comic, is not a rules source. Rich Burlew himself has said on his forums that the rules of the game are subject to the story.
Yep, I meant it as a (smilie'd) link to lighten up the mood. Plus, the big black dragon possibly did not fit into the forcecage in the first place.
The game doesn't have to come up with a different definition for the word because it's already a word in the English language, which the game is written in. Your argument is in the same vein as the "it doesn't say that I can't keep walking around when I'm dead!" or "it doesn't specify that humans can't have 47 arms and 23 heads" arguments. At some point, understanding of the basic language in which the game is written is necessary to make sense of things. This is called Practical Optimization.
It is strange that you refer to a particular dictionary (Merriam-webster), but again only take part of it. You'll notice by checking it further that it will provide synonyms that also show "vulnerable" as meaning the capability ov being "emotionally" wounded. Well, if being dragged across the multiverse against your will into mortal danger by a puny non-epic creature is not hurting your pride as a 41 HD dragon, I don't know what is.
What you do is not practical optimisation, it is simply fiat optimisation based on your own houserules.
See, gate offers neither save nor spell resistance, so it doesn't matter if the dragon is immune to magic - because immunity to magic is simply SR infinity. It doesn't matter if it's saves are infinite, because it never gets to roll them. I don't need to know about these sorts of things, because I know that the spell I am using doesn't care.
That is because YOU as a player know the monster manual I by heart. There is no certainty for any wizard using this spell that an epic creature he is about to summon does not have some kind of strange resistance to being called. The only thing he knows about a celestial great wyrm gold dragon is that it is big and powerful, possibly that it can cast 9th level arcane spells. Everything else is simply metagaming.
For instance, you may not even know whether a creature is not somehow considered unique (being epic and all that) or can create exactly this kind of effect with epic means.
The premise of this fight was that this was an event that was the culmination of his character's existence. He was literally born for this fight. So, yes, I think it's perfectly logical to pull out all the stops and do anything you can to make sure you win.
No, it is not perfectly logical. The issue was to show relative class power, and not some wild RAW interpretation to somehow fit a certain view of it.
Hell, any duel scenario makes this the logical practice. In a regular D&D game, sure, you'd be more careful. In a battle to the death, who cares if some dragon might come knocking on your door in a couple weeks because you called it to fight for you? You've got powerful opponents trying to kill you right now.
Well, for a duel that would constitute a draw, I'd say.:D And it can easily happen the moment that the spell is over, while the duel still lasts. There are tons of ways even for a fighter with 20th level items to evade such a powerful creature for the minutes it takes, leaving a wizard 1000 XP lower and with one more problem.
I don't need to know about a specific half-celestial great wyrm gold dragon. I need to know about half-celestial great wyrm gold dragons. Legend lore will tell me all I need to know about some half-celestial great wyrm gold dragon somewhere, which is good enough for me. Or are you arguing that every single such creature is protected by mind blank 24/7/365, despite their being an infinite number of them?
Not every single creature has constantly mind blank on even when being epic (alhtough it certainly helps vs those pesky gates...:P ), but it may be the one the wizard singled out for that particular combat to call, on that particular time. There is a risk involved, which is all that I am saying.
Again, you have direct, irresistible command over the creature. We don't know what Lycanthromancer's command was in this case. "Destroy that creature immediately" will in fact make it attempt to do just that.
Yes, in fact, it will. But the way how this happens is entirely up to the DM who runs that creature.
It is forced to fulfill the service. If that service is "attempt to destroy that creature to the best of your abilities" it doesn't get several rounds to buff. It gets to open fire with it's biggest offensive powers.
Oh, it does. Since it is only the creature (and the DM) who will decide what this super-genius creature believes the best of its abilities are.
That's fine. That leads to more adventures, etc. The practical impact on this fight or even the near future after it is zero, which is all that matters in this case. Duels are not regular D&D. You do things in duels that you would never do in regular D&D (like burn all your spells on this one fight).
See above. Vengeance may happen faster than the wizard would like it to. Fast enough to make it matter even for duels.
You could absolutely create a magic item and reduce your level. A scroll of gate created by a 20th-level Wizard works just as well as a gate spell being cast for this duel. Regardless, Lycanthromancer had the XP to spare, so this point is irrelevant.
Yep. But the scroll would have counted vs his wbl, plus he might have started at level 19. So how much wizards have as extra XP is what matters for duels (showcasing a small drawback of their class for such issues). That was what I wanted to point out.
Yes, because clearly no creature of 40 HD would be just as suitable. Really, do you think this point hinges on calling half-celestial great wyrm gold dragons specifically? That was a random, powerful creature. Any random creature of sufficient power would do. Heck, a Solar would do and not even strain the Wizard's HD limit for a single creature.
Yes, true. Although a solar, being associated with a deity, may be an even more dangerous choice. Also, in particular for caster duels of this high level: the wizard should best be wary of a dispel magic or AMF hitting him, because this will immediately let drop his magically gained levels and lets him lose control of the creature. Best not be too greedy...
A flying familiar can apply the ring gates. That was what this point was about, was it not? I don't care whether the Fighter cares about the familiar, I care about whether the familiar can stick the ring gate on the dragon's forehead.
And that familiar (losing his master's buffs once he moves away) will have some kind of problem doing exactly that when taken out by the enemy's attack. That's what I wanted to point out.
However, assuming that the familiar has readied his action from the previous round it will carry over into this turn. Whether the round in which the action was readied was a combat round or not is irrelevant; the familiar is prepared (and quite possibly has been prepared for quite some time) to slap the ring gate onto a dragon's forehead when it appears.
Yes, of course it can do that in round 2. But at level 20, that could mean that the opponent (even a fighter) has done already quite some decisive things, including taking out the familiar.
The author bias does matter in this situation, as it directly relates to interpreting the text of the spell. For further evidence, look at the Nightmare. If you can only utilize astral projection from the Material Plane, then Nightmares can't use their supernatural ability at all. Logic dictates that we simply take this as an example of author bias (regarding the viewpoint of the reader) and simply ignore the reference. Since the spell has no language whatsoever that forbids it from being cast on planes other than the Material, we can safely assume it can in fact be used from any plane.
Yes, that's what I said.
Githyanki silver swords are absolutely core. They are in the Monster Manual, in the Githyanki section. The Astral Dreadnought was written with a specific ability to sever silver cords.
Ah, I currently only have the SRD here. So a 20th level character opponent might be equipped with such swords...
Antimagic field suppresses the spell, which would be the equivalent of dispelling it, which simply sends the caster back to their body. It doesn't snap the cord.
AMF explicitly does not dispel, but suppresses. This severs the chord, which is magic.
Again, where in the rules anywhere does it state this? Oh, right.
It says so in the AMF description, although it does not explicitly mention...you get the idea.;)
And in the astral projection spell description, there is a reference to the DMG (and not to the Githyanki in the Monster Manual!). And the only part of that spell that the DMG refers to is the incorporal rules. And incorporal stuff winks out in an AMF. So what am I to do? Ignore this? Or simply say as a DM "ah, what they wrote there does not matter, so let's assume this chord gets never snapped by the RAW". Great.
Ah, yes. This argument. *sigh* I hate having to dispel this argument again (at least Aharon was kind enough to see the light at the end). Tell me, in the spell description, does it give any kind of statistics for attacking the silver cord anywhere? No. Do you know where those statistics are listed? Under the githyanki silver sword in the Monster Manual, which has an explicit stated ability that allows it to attack astral silver cords. That's it.
There do not need to be statistics. The AMF suppresses all kind of magic. And: how are then the Githyanki swords supposed to work?
"Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter." You have to either be blind or intentionally mis-interpreting the text in order to actually make the arguments you just did.
Ah! I stand corrected - I only saw the second reference to the physical body forming. I must have been as "blind or intentionally mis-interpreting" as you were when you maintained that a fighter cannot become incorporal in the core game.
Wonderful. Your house rule has absolutely no bearing on a CO discussion.
And was never intended to. I basically corrected with that houserule my RAW oversight, because I also thought it odd.
Why allow it? Because the Wizard has class features that say he can do exactly that. Why allow the Fighter to make more than 2 iterative attacks per round? The Wizard can't do that. Why allow the Fighter to wear armor? The Wizard can't do that.
No. There is no class ability in the whole game that trumps the wbl guidelines. Sorry. No item creation feats. No performing skill. No masterwork item crafting (available also to the fighter btw!). No sleight of hand for stealing. No nothing.
And that is actually at the core of the whole astral projection problem. The wizard can do what he likes with it. He simply will not get the double items with any game impact, because that's where the RAW wbl kicks in. No way around that. Sorry.
I don't even know where you are going with this. I have provided clear, consistent evidence that every use of this spell that has been proposed is completely within the RAW. Whether that was the author's intent for the spell is irrelevant, the RAW says you get duplicate items.
No, you have not provided any evidence for RAW. But just interpretations of what is written there, and sometimes just assuming what may have been meant by the designers. In doing so, you choose to follow broken interpretations - and a game may even be fun with those. But they have no place imo at the CO boards.;)
"Directly affect" is not vague. It means if something directly affects your person. Someone touching my friend does not directly affect my person. Your example is in fact a total straw man. Congratulations, you can burn scarecrows.
It is not straw man. It is an attempt to keep the contingency spell within what its text actually says.
When you say "go off when something affects me" it will also go off when someone buffs you or when your familiar flies around you, since the air around you will move the hair on your skin. It is something that is not clear enough within the game terms, and the spell explicitly warns of complicated conditions.
The contingency spell gets complicated, the more general and all-encompassing you wish it to have.
If I visualize my opponent (in this case the Fighter) when I set my contingency, that is who the spell will trigger off of. That is all that I need to do. Considering the conditions for the duel, that is a perfectly valid contingency.
So what if it is not the real opponent, but a clone/illusion/whatever approaching you and you have no true seeing effect on? Then your interpretation of the contingency would lead to an additional bonus that the spell does not grant, because the contingency would not go off, since it is not your previously defined "opponent" who approaches you.
Again, this has any bearing on the discussion ... how? You have yet to show how the Fighter would bypass his defenses. Until you do, this point is worthless.
I mentioned it already: ring of blinking. Fighter moves to wall, ducks underneath, and thus bypasses it. Do not underestimate 20th level combat.
It gets triggered by the animal companion ... which means I am now several hundred feet away (certainly well out of range of the druid's movement). Mission accomplished. I can re-activate my contingency next round, anyway.
Yes, you are several hundred feet away, and in doing so greatly dependent on a duel setting that you know exactly about beforehand. Otherwise, you'll likely end up in a tree, in the ground or whereever you do not wish to be. And re-activating the contingency requires either 10 minutes or a shadow evocation. Meanwhile, the druid does his stuff.
The problem with what the contingency dimension door actually does is the second big caveat of the contingency power (apart from the compicated conditions problem).
Or the familiar can have the readied action "whenever someone gets within 30 ft. of my master (who's shoulder I am sitting on), I activate my wand of dimension door". You can always choose not to take the readied action and maintain it should someone approach whom the Wizard doesn't mind being that close. Readied actions are less specific than contingency, which is why it's a good first line of defense.
Now, that is a much better tactics! Yes, it could work. But at such high level combat, a familiar may also be fooled by the enemy.
Yes, they depend on magic. You have yet to demonstrate how the Wizard is being caught inside the antimagic field in a manner that he can't easily escape from. I've yet to touch on several other defenses against antimagic field. An eight-foot tall, five-foot wide adamantine cone that's been shrunk down with shrink item to resemble a hat works wonders. As soon as the antimagic field gets in range, the hat un-shrinks, blocking the antimagic field. Voila! This is, of course, for the situations in which the duel takes place with both contenders on the ground, which is an arbitrary restriction.
A good way is to fly/teleport above a wizard and then activate the AMF, taking the wizard with you as you fall. The adamantine cone can be a problem when it is triggered with the enemy next to him (bevore activating the AMF). Then it is a death trap - otherwise it is a nice idea!
OK, I think this is leading into a dead end. One more attempt...
In my view, the two major strategies by Lycanthromancer (time stop and gate for offense, time stop and ring gates for defense) are not backed up by the RAW - simply because the spell descriptions of time stop and gate leave way too much interpretation. For me, going to great lengths to choose the broken interpretation neither leads to good enjoyment of the regular game, nor to meaningful class power assessments in duels.
And that you yourself choose deviate from the RAW is nicely illustrated by how you interpret the force cage / AMF question:
The force cage spell does not provide an inclusive list. It says: "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation."
You see? You simply interpret into this sentence that simply because the text refers to similarities to a wall of force, everything else of a wall of force also applies. But it does not.
One more time. I've only posted this a half-dozen times before. Wall of force is immune to dispel magic not because it has some specific immunity to dispel magic, but because of it's general immunity to (most) spells. Forcecage resists dispel magic "like a wall of force", therefor the only way for it to resist dispel magic as wall of force does is to be immune to most spells. I "interpret" the text by reading it logically and understanding that qualifiers on one side affect the other.
The spell does not even mention AMF. So the only RAW we can follow here is what the AMF spell itself says. And it only mentions explicitly wall of force and asks to check for individual spell descriptions (and the forcecage is not RAW explicit enough).
Now OF COURSE as a houserule I'd probably interpret it the same way as you do. But it remains an interpretation. Although I must admit that Agahi_Renem provided a good point - that the mention of "walls of force" gives a clue that it is indeed like a wall of force (although the terms are not written in italics, like specific spells are - so it is open to RAW interpretations still).
It is all the more remarkable that you argue like this on the forcecage issue, but then criticise me for doing something similar with the gate spell.
The text of antimagic field is irrelevant to the forcecage issue. All that matters is the relationship between wall of force and forcecage, demonstrated above (and throughout this thread).
It is strange that you refer to a particular dictionary (Merriam-webster), but again only take part of it. You'll notice by checking it further that it will provide synonyms that also show "vulnerable" as meaning the capability ov being "emotionally" wounded. Well, if being dragged across the multiverse against your will into mortal danger by a puny non-epic creature is not hurting your pride as a 41 HD dragon, I don't know what is.
What you do is not practical optimisation, it is simply fiat optimisation based on your own houserules.
The definition of the word "invulnerable" is what you were questioning. I presented a dictionary definition of that word. What it's antonyms mean is irrelevant. The point about Practical Optimization is that you are insisting that since the game doesn't define "invulnerable" to mean something specific within the rules, it can mean anything you want. This is exactly the same argument which lead to people saying that since the game doesn't officially define what being dead means, you can jolly well get right up and keep going.
That is because YOU as a player know the monster manual I by heart. There is no certainty for any wizard using this spell that an epic creature he is about to summon does not have some kind of strange resistance to being called. The only thing he knows about a celestial great wyrm gold dragon is that it is big and powerful, possibly that it can cast 9th level arcane spells. Everything else is simply metagaming.
For instance, you may not even know whether a creature is not somehow considered unique (being epic and all that) or can create exactly this kind of effect with epic means.
No, that is because I, as a 20th-level Wizard with a superhuman intellect in game, know that this particular spell allows for neither spell resistance nor saving throw. Until presented evidence to the contrary, it is logical to assume that it will in fact work. Assuming that random creatures have never-before-seen powers is ludicrous. I might as well stay in my study because I cannot be 100% certain that the sky isn't going to open up and rain frogs down on me when I walk outside.
As to whether it's unique, I think my Knowledge check is sufficient to gather that information at the bare minimum. Or, y'know, the legend lore spell I use to learn the rest of the information I need. I've demonstrated how the Wizard can know all he needs to about such creatures. Why are you still insisting that it's outside the Wizard's ability to do so? Hell, if the Wizard in question was of a Good alignment, he could just go find one. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard. He has plane shift and can travel to Celestia and just jolly well ask where the nearest holy gold dragon is. He has planar binding and could just call a celestial being and ask it about these dragons. This isn't rocket surgery!
No, it is not perfectly logical. The issue was to show relative class power, and not some wild RAW interpretation to somehow fit a certain view of it.
Both players were informed that their character's entire existence has been building towards the fight. They each, in character, knew that the other had been training their entire life for this. To not employ every tool at his disposal would have been foolish.
Well, for a duel that would constitute a draw, I'd say.:D And it can easily happen the moment that the spell is over, while the duel still lasts. There are tons of ways even for a fighter with 20th level items to evade such a powerful creature for the minutes it takes, leaving a wizard 1000 XP lower and with one more problem.
The spell automatically sends the creature back to where it came from. That's part of all calling effects. This means that the dragon, at the minimum, has to plane shift back, possibly winding up several miles away.
And no, short of being on a physically seperate plane (which isn't a hard guarantee, even) the Fighter 20 doesn't have a way to deal with even one such dragon, if it really wants him dead. Not to mention the Wizard who is also trying to kill the Fighter during this time.
Not every single creature has constantly mind blank on even when being epic (alhtough it certainly helps vs those pesky gates...:P ), but it may be the one the wizard singled out for that particular combat to call, on that particular time. There is a risk involved, which is all that I am saying.
Mind blank is irrelevant when dealing with gate. Mind blank blocks divinations, not conjurations. In addition, the Wizard doesn't choose a particular creature (hence why the spell has no Target entry). The Wizard states a kind of creature, and the spell grabs one at random.
Yes, in fact, it will. But the way how this happens is entirely up to the DM who runs that creature.
And it what way did Lycanthromancer have the dragons act that was contrary to his order? They first tried to use implosion, and when it was discovered that the dragon had a rod of absorption, they proceeded to destroy it. So far, that looks like he was running them exactly as per his order.
Oh, it does. Since it is only the creature (and the DM) who will decide what this super-genius creature believes the best of its abilities are.
Standing around for several rounds buffing itself when it is in possession of numerous offensive spells, spell-like abilities, and formidable natural weapons is not in line with the order to "destroy that creature to the best of your abilities". Attempting to blow it up with magic is.
See above. Vengeance may happen faster than the wizard would like it to. Fast enough to make it matter even for duels.
The fastest it could reasonably get there is 2 rounds. In that time, the duel is over and the Wizard is gone. Even if he isn't, he can leave when they show up (or he could just talk to them, thanking them for their help. Diplomacy is awesome like that). All of his defenses are still active at this point, and he has the bulk of his spells still intact.
Yep. But the scroll would have counted vs his wbl, plus he might have started at level 19. So how much wizards have as extra XP is what matters for duels (showcasing a small drawback of their class for such issues). That was what I wanted to point out.
The Wizard needs a fraction of his WBL to even engage in this fight. He can spend the bulk of it on a chicken farm and it won't make a difference one way or the other.
Are you arguing now that the Wizard starts at 19th level? That's fine, although not the rules for the duel Lycanthromancer engaged in (which was the whole point of this debate in the first place).
Yes, true. Although a solar, being associated with a deity, may be an even more dangerous choice. Also, in particular for caster duels of this high level: the wizard should best be wary of a dispel magic or AMF hitting him, because this will immediately let drop his magically gained levels and lets him lose control of the creature. Best not be too greedy...
Gate checks your CL when you cast it. You can employ a temporary CL boost to call a more powerful creature, and it will remain under your command even after the boost fades. All spells function like this (unless specifically noted otherwise).
And that familiar (losing his master's buffs once he moves away) will have some kind of problem doing exactly that when taken out by the enemy's attack. That's what I wanted to point out.
That's what a wand of polymorph is for. Or, y'know, greater invisibility can be cast on other people. *shrug*
Yes, of course it can do that in round 2. But at level 20, that could mean that the opponent (even a fighter) has done already quite some decisive things, including taking out the familiar.
It can do it in round one. Readied actions carry over from round to round. If the Wizard told the familiar to ready it's action the round before the combat started, it would still have it's readied action during the first round.
Yes, that's what I said.
Wait, what?
Ah, I currently only have the SRD here. So a 20th level character opponent might be equipped with such swords...
Sure, he could have one. Now he needs to A) be on the Astral Plane and B) find the Wizard's cord. And then he runs into the defenses the Wizard has placed there.
AMF explicitly does not dispel, but suppresses. This severs the chord, which is magic.
Where in the rules is this? I still haven't found it. Astral projection ceases to function in an antimagic field. Since the spell has "ended" for the purposes of effects, we look at what happens during such a situation. Astral projection tells us that when the spell is dispelled (the closest effect to what has occured) the spell ends and the caster is returned to their body. Wow, that's ... exactly what I've been saying!
It says so in the AMF description, although it does not explicitly mention...you get the idea.;)
And in the astral projection spell description, there is a reference to the DMG (and not to the Githyanki in the Monster Manual!). And the only part of that spell that the DMG refers to is the incorporal rules. And incorporal stuff winks out in an AMF. So what am I to do? Ignore this? Or simply say as a DM "ah, what they wrote there does not matter, so let's assume this chord gets never snapped by the RAW". Great.
Ah, yes, because of course with just the DMG, you can totally attack the astral silver cord because you have it's stats ... oh, wait! You don't! That's right. Those stats are in the MM. Without them, you don't know what you can do to that silver cord.
There do not need to be statistics. The AMF suppresses all kind of magic. And: how are then the Githyanki swords supposed to work?
The githyanki silver swords work because the have a special ability to sever the silver cords of astral travelers. Specifically "... using their silver swords to attack astral travelers' silver cords (see the astral projection spell, page 201 of the Player's Handbook). The normally insubstantial cord is treated as a tangible object with the owner's AC, hardness 10, and 20 hit points." Note the word "insubstantial". Not incorporeal, which is a rules-defined effect, but insubstantial, which is a word in the English language.
And was never intended to. I basically corrected with that houserule my RAW oversight, because I also thought it odd.
Then why bring up your house rules?
No. There is no class ability in the whole game that trumps the wbl guidelines. Sorry. No item creation feats. No performing skill. No masterwork item crafting (available also to the fighter btw!). No sleight of hand for stealing. No nothing.
And that is actually at the core of the whole astral projection problem. The wizard can do what he likes with it. He simply will not get the double items with any game impact, because that's where the RAW wbl kicks in. No way around that. Sorry.
Astral projection is one of the Wizard's class abilities, along with all his other spells. And again, there is no rule which says you can only ever have X gold at Y level. There is a table in the DMG which lists wealth by level as a guideline to DMs as to how much treasure the PCs should have at any given level. It has no rules text whatsoever in that section. It's all merely DM advice on how to maintain balance within the game.
No, you have not provided any evidence for RAW. But just interpretations of what is written there, and sometimes just assuming what may have been meant by the designers. In doing so, you choose to follow broken interpretations - and a game may even be fun with those. But they have no place imo at the CO boards.;)
Wow, when a spell isn't explicit (fireball, for example), we have to figure out what the words mean! That's called reading comprehension. It's something that every literate human being has to do every day.
It is not straw man. It is an attempt to keep the contingency spell within what its text actually says.
When you say "go off when something affects me" it will also go off when someone buffs you or when your familiar flies around you, since the air around you will move the hair on your skin. It is something that is not clear enough within the game terms, and the spell explicitly warns of complicated conditions.
The contingency spell gets complicated, the more general and all-encompassing you wish it to have.
My friend getting a hug does not directly affect me, unless I am doing the hugging. If you like, I will be more specific and say "If the fighter (referring to the one in the duel) would directly affect me, blah blah blah".
So what if it is not the real opponent, but a clone/illusion/whatever approaching you and you have no true seeing effect on? Then your interpretation of the contingency would lead to an additional bonus that the spell does not grant, because the contingency would not go off, since it is not your previously defined "opponent" who approaches you.
Hmm, if the person I defined doesn't do anything to me, the contingency doesn't go off. Huh, that's neat, isn't it? And yes, that is a secondary benefit to contingency. It's wonderful how you can do all these creative and innovative things with magic to get cool effects, huh?
I mentioned it already: ring of blinking. Fighter moves to wall, ducks underneath, and thus bypasses it. Do not underestimate 20th level combat.
Blink is an unreliable way to do this, but there are others, so yes, the Fighter can get inside the dome. That's wonderful. He still has to actually do something meaningful to the Wizard, and indeed he has to find him. Remember that the Wizard is currently shapechange'd into a greater shadow, and is thus incorporeal. Even beyond that, the Wizard still has the rest of his defenses as well, plus the ability to leave the "turtle" at any time.
Yes, you are several hundred feet away, and in doing so greatly dependent on a duel setting that you know exactly about beforehand. Otherwise, you'll likely end up in a tree, in the ground or whereever you do not wish to be. And re-activating the contingency requires either 10 minutes or a shadow evocation. Meanwhile, the druid does his stuff.
The problem with what the contingency dimension door actually does is the second big caveat of the contingency power (apart from the compicated conditions problem).
How is the Wizard dependent on the duel setting? In the case of a contingency to dimension door or teleport him away, he doesn't have to decide the parameters of the spell until the contingency activates.
So, the likely scenario is that the contingecy is set to something like "If the Druid is within 30 ft. of me, cast teleport". The Druid's animal companion is taken care with the familiar, or even the fact that it can't do anything meaningful to the Wizard. If it goes for the grapple, freedom of movement stops it. Even hitting will be a challenge, what with shapechange being available. The Wizard is likely blurred, incorporeal, and has at least displacement up. That gives it a ~3% chance to successfully hit.
A good way is to fly/teleport above a wizard and then activate the AMF, taking the wizard with you as you fall. The adamantine cone can be a problem when it is triggered with the enemy next to him (bevore activating the AMF). Then it is a death trap - otherwise it is a nice idea!
This still doesn't deal with the contingency or the familiar's readied action.
If the Fighter moves up close and then activates the AMF, the cone appears around the Wizard, between him and the Fighter. Remember, it only occupies a 5-foot space at the base. The Wizard can then teleport out of it, or any other number of methods of getting away. The cone also stops charging foes. Again, all this is assuming that the Wizard is on the ground.
Trying to sum up broadly,
- you believe that a spell (astral projection) provides instant double wealth, although the wbl rules (DMG p. 135) start with the sentence "One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items."
- you believe that a 6th level spell (contingency) not only provides a safe escape pod, but also blows out of the water all kinds of divination spells, despite the passage in the spell that says "If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on." And that I already pointed out two problems with prior wordings of contingencies you thought 100% safe apparently showed you nothing (come on, a friend hugging you does not affect you, only when you do the hugging? what?). That, plus the problem that you intend to key a dimension door with a contingency for 100% wizard safety although there is the problem that in all but a completely known beforehand setting, a wizard will have no control over where he'll end up, since: "The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time." (SRD)
- you pick whatever you like from the gate spell to turn it into a "I call an uber creature I have almost no clue about (since I know the MM by heart I can be certain it's risk-free) and can command it around at will without any consequences". Basically, you try to usurp npc handling, but npcs are entirely the DM's turf.
- similarly you bend the time stop in such a way to fit some sort of win combo, where it is clear that such a combo does not exist. To do this ,you turn to outside sources (an online dictionary) for non-defined game terms, and when someone else uses the same source to come to a different conclusion, you say, yours is "logical" and call it "practical optimisation".
- overall, you employ huge resources to prove a game-breaking constellation while ignoring the many possibilities where different interprations can quickly restore balance (for instance, the astral projection silver chord thing).
Basically, you oppose my attempts to provide a playable RAW interpretation as: "This is exactly the same argument which lead to people saying that since the game doesn't officially define what being dead means, you can jolly well get right up and keep going." But you do exactly that when trying to find basis for your RAW interpetations.
The problem is that the majority of DMs you'll find not let you get away with that. And therefore, I do not think it is very useful for duel advice, build ideas and general strategies on an optimisation boards - although it may be discussed among the more absurd optimisation attempts with the premises "provided the RAW is stretched this way, you may..."
But since it's a game, I guess fun can be had from it in a multitude of interpretations.;)
Somewhere you said: "when a spell isn't explicit (fireball, for example), we have to figure out what the words mean! That's called reading comprehension. It's something that every literate human being has to do every day."
I have no clue why when two interpretations are possible you intend to go for the broken one. Less so, when the non-broken interpretation does not need the same kind of rule-stretching.
I'm giving up on convincing you, Malkavon.
Trying to sum up broadly,
- you believe that a spell (astral projection) provides instant double wealth, although the wbl rules (DMG p. 135) start with the sentence "One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items."
The WBL table is not rules text. It's DM advice. That's it. Read the whole sentence again.
- you believe that a 6th level spell (contingency) not only provides a safe escape pod, but also blows out of the water all kinds of divination spells, despite the passage in the spell that says "If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on." And that I already pointed out two problems with prior wordings of contingencies you thought 100% safe apparently showed you nothing (come on, a friend hugging you does not affect you, only when you do the hugging? what?). That, plus the problem that you intend to key a dimension door with a contingency for 100% wizard safety although there is the problem that in all but a completely known beforehand setting, a wizard will have no control over where he'll end up, since: "The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time." (SRD)
Wow, you actually are just being disingenuous. I said my friend getting a hug wouldn't affect me unless I'm the one doing the hugging.
You don't define the parameters of whatever spell you apply contingency to until the contingency activates. Go read the spell again.
You have two options when determining whether contingency goes off: is it based on reality, or what the caster thinks? If it's what the caster thinks, then "my opponent" is a valid contingency. If it's reality, then yes, contingency can let you know when someone isn't who you think they are. Pick one.
- you pick whatever you like from the gate spell to turn it into a "I call an uber creature I have almost no clue about (since I know the MM by heart I can be certain it's risk-free) and can command it around at will without any consequences". Basically, you try to usurp npc handling, but npcs are entirely the DM's turf.
Pretty much. Sure, there could be long-term consequences, but those are outside the scope of a duel and frankly anything the Wizard can successfully summon with gate he can also deal with. That's the advantage of having 9th-level spells, y'know?
- similarly you bend the time stop in such a way to fit some sort of win combo, where it is clear that such a combo does not exist. To do this ,you turn to outside sources (an online dictionary) for non-defined game terms, and when someone else uses the same source to come to a different conclusion, you say, yours is "logical" and call it "practical optimisation".
I don't "bend" time stop. And yes, I resort to a dictionary in order to show you the definition of invulnerable when you tried to define invulnerable as meaning something it doesn't. You used the same dictionary to drag up the antonym of invulnerable and try to show me that that counters my argument somehow. You do know that not every single definition of a word necessarily applies at the same time for any given usage, right?
- overall, you employ huge resources to prove a game-breaking constellation while ignoring the many possibilities where different interprations can quickly restore balance (for instance, the astral projection silver chord thing).
Are there different interpretations? Sure. That doesn't make them right according to the RAW, though.
Basically, you oppose my attempts to provide a playable RAW interpretation as: "This is exactly the same argument which lead to people saying that since the game doesn't officially define what being dead means, you can jolly well get right up and keep going." But you do exactly that when trying to find basis for your RAW interpetations.
My points are derived from the RAW. Yes, for some things a little bit of reading comprehension is required. For others, the rules are clear. You do not target a creature with gate. You cast the spell and declare the type of creature you want. It brings you one. That's it. Time stop prohibits you from targeting or attacking creatures, or from doing damage to them. That's it. It's very, very simple.
The problem is that the majority of DMs you'll find not let you get away with that. And therefore, I do not think it is very useful for duel advice, build ideas and general strategies on an optimisation boards - although it may be discussed among the more absurd optimisation attempts with the premises "provided the RAW is stretched this way, you may..."
I don't care what "most DMs" will do. Most DMs think the Fighter is a good class and that Core is balanced, in my experience. This entire discussion has been because someone posted Lycanthromancer's famous duel, and you responded with a laundry list of complaints about it. I responded because you were wrong.
But since it's a game, I guess fun can be had from it in a multitude of interpretations.;)
Somewhere you said: "when a spell isn't explicit (fireball, for example), we have to figure out what the words mean! That's called reading comprehension. It's something that every literate human being has to do every day."
I have no clue why when two interpretations are possible you intend to go for the broken one. Less so, when the non-broken interpretation does not need the same kind of rule-stretching.
I don't "go for the broken one". I go for the one that makes the most sense based on the RAW. If you house rule something that you don't like, that's perfectly fine. I do the same thing. Those house rules and personal dislikes have no bearing in a CO discussion, however.
If you use charges of the copied item, the real item looses the charges, too. However, if the copies of your items are destroyed, the real items aren't harmed. Material components are not mentioned, so RAW, the use of copies of material components wouldn't affect the real material components (as they are part of your items).
Also, the silver cord definitely can only be destroyed by psychic winds (basically strong winds on the astral plane), githyanki swords, and another monster. Nothing is able to destroy a cord unless it specifically says so.
Now, it's a 3.0 source, but AFAIK, unless something was updated, it's still part of the rules.
Manual of the plane stuff
Now, it's a 3.0 source, but AFAIK, unless something was updated, it's still part of the rules.
Well the PHB 3.5 did come after Manual of the planes. So the 3.5 handbook itself would be the update would it not?
Although all this arguing over Lycan's fight isn't helping the OP at all. While a good debate or argument as the case may be is fine and dandy, it's derailing the orginal post. So it should be moved to a different thread.
Although all this arguing over Lycan's fight isn't helping the OP at all. While a good debate or argument as the case may be is fine and dandy, it's derailing the orginal post. So it should be moved to a different thread.
I concur. Some of the strategies Lycan' used are useful for this thread and the extent to which they are debatable has been assertively made clear. --ShriekingDrake
After that, it really depends on his opponent. Against a Cleric, he should be able to hold his own (depending on the Cleric's domains). Against a Wizard, the power of time manipulation magic puts the Druid at a serious disadvantage (unless he can get his hands on some of his own).
The Wizard's main power comes from his ability to A) not care when anyone else is acting and just do whatever he wants whenever he wants and B) his ability to layer his defenses to the point where he's unkillable (unless the duel rules are sufficiently slanted against the bulk of his defenses).
Offense is a virtual afterthought in high-level duels like this. If you can get an action and can affect your opponent, you are pretty much guaranteed to have a way to eliminate them. The problem is getting to that point in the first place. The Druid has more than enough ways to kill his opponent, but he lacks ways to apply them effectively.
The main point of the debate was that these kinds of tactics are what the Druid needs to be able to overcome in order to be competitive. His first recourse is shapechange into a Dire Tortoise to be able to act in the surprise round. That still doesn't stop the celerity/contingency/time stop abuses, but it gets him in the door.
After that, it really depends on his opponent. Against a Cleric, he should be able to hold his own (depending on the Cleric's domains). Against a Wizard, the power of time manipulation magic puts the Druid at a serious disadvantage (unless he can get his hands on some of his own).
The Wizard's main power comes from his ability to A) not care when anyone else is acting and just do whatever he wants whenever he wants and B) his ability to layer his defenses to the point where he's unkillable (unless the duel rules are sufficiently slanted against the bulk of his defenses).
Offense is a virtual afterthought in high-level duels like this. If you can get an action and can affect your opponent, you are pretty much guaranteed to have a way to eliminate them. The problem is getting to that point in the first place. The Druid has more than enough ways to kill his opponent, but he lacks ways to apply them effectively.
An excellent summary. The OP should appreciate this. --ShriekingDrake
I've been going over this and over this in my head and I can't see a way for anyone but the Wizard or Sorcerer from winning this duel--and it will all depend upon who goes first, unless the time affecting spells are banned. Right? --ShriekingDrake
Don't discount the Psion. Their time-manipulation powers are on par with, or better than, the Wizard's. They can get some pretty effective defenses going as well (in the realm of spellcasters, that is, where miss chances are the best defense). So really, it's a toss-up between the Wizard, the Sorcerer, and the Psion. It'll really come down to who has the most layered defense. In this department, my money is on the Wizard, but I won't count the other two out of the running. The Cleric is also a potential contender, due to domains. With the right domains, the Cleric can copy a lot of what the others can do.
And yes, unless spells like celerity and time stop, and powers like anticipatory strike, temporal acceleration, time regression, and time hop are banned, the classes without ready access to such tricks are at a severe disadvantage.
- you believe that a spell (astral projection) provides instant double wealth, although the wbl rules (DMG p. 135) start with the sentence "One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items."
Annoyingly, the wizard himself is uncheckable, but I'm pretty darn sure the wizard can win with less then half his WBL, thus preserving the recommendation. Also, say he gets to 20th level, has his exactly 760,000, then spots a copper in the street. Does it disappear the instant he picks it up? Does a fighter pop up and sunder it? Or a thief steal it?
Say a bard is 7th level, has 19,000gp and decides to put on a show using Perform (Dance). It earns him 3 gp. Does it magically disappear? Does it mundanely disappear?
Say this bard does that 6334 times. Does, at that point, all his accumulated coin disappear all at once?
The spell Wall of Iron can be used to gain gold. Does this mean that the spell has to be banned in all games immediately because OMG WEN A CASTER LIEK CASTS IT HE GETZ IORN AND HE CAN SELL IT OH NOEZ!
First find out if Druid domains are allowed from the UA. That'll help a lot, particularly because some of them have some....... upsetting spells on their list.
Repeat after me:
1:Hide is not pierced by true-sight.
2:No one remembers to bring alternative vision forms, they just use true-sight.
3:Druids can use their many many forms to hide in any fashion they want.
4:Surprise rounds are absolutely freaking hilarious.
Is Divine Minion allowed?
How about aberrant wildshape and assume supernatural ability?
Say yes to either, and we've won.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, all wotc books allowed?
Is Divine Minion allowed?
How about aberrant wildshape and assume supernatural ability?
Say yes to either, and we've won.
Doc Rock, could you elaborate?
Will-o-wisp
+
Enhanced Wild Shape from the spell compendium
. . .
Yeeep. That's a mild example. You don't even need assume supernatural ability. The conjunction of assume supernatural ability and the ability to become an aberration is game-endingly stupid. Heck, the ability to become an aberration is basically nightmare-fuel for most GMs, myself included.
Or How about this?
If your DM rules that wildshape from divine minion stacks with wildshape from your druid levels...
"The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level. "
Your effective druid level will be 31.
Take assume supernatural abilities twice.
Cast Enhanced Wild Shape
Become the destroyer of minds.
Bear in mind that both of these are not in any fashion good examples, and they'll still probably end the match entirely.
I have not had a match yet. The DM had to travel and the matches have gone MUCH longer than expected. There's been a lot of rule-lawyering, according to the DM and he's trying to get it right. Anyway, I still have some time to develop some strategy for my Druid 20.
Time Stop, Celerity, Temporal Stasis, and their ilk have been banned.
One Wish will be available (from any source) per side in the match.
@ Rocktopus, I don't understand the Divine Minion approach you've recommended. I'm not seeing how divine minion--at least as I read it from the SRD--will bolster wild shape.
Thanks,
Snork
Now. Divine minion. I worry there's a special hell reserved for passing that one on. Why? Because it causes more debate than most anything else. It was intended for NPCs but it gives an LA, which is not useful for building NPCs, nor does it specify in this version of the write-up that it is not for players.
If you GM rules that fast wild shape stacks with wild shape, well, you are an effective druid level of 31. You then take assume supernatural ability (page 120 or so I think in savage species) twice and become a gibbering orb, assuming the eye ray special ability and the gibbering aura special ability. You'll also need to cast enhanced wildshape to actually get it's (EX) abilities so you can fly. You'll still need the aberration wildshape feat too.
So the gibbering orb, while showy, is by far one of the least abusive things you can shift into when you have an effective druid level higher than twenty. For more legit ways to get it, there's an excellent amulet, the name of which slips my mind, found in magic of faerun. Wildshape Amulet (MoF pg.167). Which will push you up 4 hd. So even if you're stuck as a druid who's "just" a level 20 druid, you can shift into things of up to 24 hd with that amulet. As the gibbering orb shows, this gives you access to a number of epic level monsters, almost all of them freaking nightmare fuel.
I'm sorry, I will regret bringing any of this up. Good luck, and Godspeed.
Snork
double posts.
Aberration Wildshape + Wildshape Amulet is pretty insane in and of itself. The will-o-wisp option requires nothing but the first of those two things and the enhanced wild shape spell, from the SpC, which you should look up at your earliest opportunity. Bang, insta-sorrow for so little effort. So many good options! As a druid, to quote the excellent rich burlew, you have class features more powerful by far than entire classes.
Though it's not a perfect mapping onto your concerns, you should read the Master of Many Forms handbook.
I'm not sure I see how the fast wild shape ability will let you turn into anything other than the animals listed. * * * I suspect there's something I'm missing that would let the fast wild shape ability enable you to select other creatures, but from the description I don't see it.
Snork
I, too, don't understand how the description of "fast wild shape" would enable the permitted wild shapes under the "aberrant wild shape" feat.
A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves (divine minions of Set also have a vermin form). The divine minion can use this ability at will, can change form as a free action, and can spend time in animal form indefinitely. They prefer to keep their shapechanging abilities secret so that they can use them to surprise their enemies in combat. Unlike a druid, minions can use this ability even if they're wearing metal armor.
My reading of the "fast wild shape" ability is that it allows the Divine Minion to assume the shape of a specifically identified animal or set of animals, based on which Deity is worshiped. As I read the columns, the list of animals falls under the rubric "Minion Animal Forms Available," which suggest to me that it is a discrete set. So, I can't see how the "fast wild shape" ability can apply to the "Gibbering Orb"--even for a character who has the Aberrant Wild Shape feat--much as it would be fun to turn into one.
I'm also not seeing how one might interpret "as an 11th-level druid" as something that would stack with druid 20 to yield druid 31. If anything, I suspect that using this ability would be interpreted RAW to lower druid 20's wild shape abilities to 11th-level, when he uses "fast wild shape."
All that said, this is all new to me, and Rocktopus seems quite familiar with these rules. I must not be connecting the dots here. --ShriekingDrake
I'm also not seeing how one might interpret "as an 11th-level druid" as something that would stack with druid 20 to yield druid 31. If anything, I suspect that using this ability would be interpreted RAW to lower druid 20's wild shape abilities to 11th-level, when he uses "fast wild shape."
If a race has racial spellcasting (like an aranea casts as a sorcerer), it stacks with classes that increase spellcasting, including actual levels of the casting class in question (like sorcerer for an aranea). I'd guess that's the precedent for stacking wildshape from druid on top of racial wild shape "as a druid".
Also, a lot of this research was done for Pun-Pun by the Gleemax Collective. I'm just a humble creature, grazing near the sleeping hulk of things forbidden and lost.
The precedent that Phaedrus mentioned is the one I am following, and generally the one accepted as the most-upsetting-reading-that-we-like. Now, the way the aberrant wildshape feat helps us is that we presume it simply grants the ability to use your wild shape ability, whatever it may be, to shift into one of the specified category, regardless of if your wildshape would normally let you. This is, in fact, how it works with normal wildshape from druid or class variants that give it. So now you have your list of deity linked animals, and you can also do aberrations but only also aberrations. :: pauses :: Um... basically, just.. .just don't use divine minion. It will either be allowed and everyone will be sad-faced, upset everyone, or make you guilty for getting away with rotten and terrible cheese.
Besides, as mentioned, with just aberrant wildshape, you have enough cheese to fill a freaking dairy farm.
The wildshape amulet will really help too, giving you that last little bit of reach that you might need.
Combine with:
ENHANCE WILD SHAPE
Transmutation
Level: Druid 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level
You call upon the primordial energies of
nature to fill you with the raw power of
nature. A feral feeling grows within you,
seeking release.
This spell infuses your wild shape ability
with magical energy, magnifying
and enhancing its power. The type
of enhancement must be chosen at
the time the spell is cast and cannot
be changed once the spell is in effect.
The next time you activate your wild
shape ability (during the duration of
enhance wild shape), this spell enhances
your new form in the way you selected.
The enhancement to your wild shape
remains as long as you stay in that form
(or until the spell’s duration expires)
but does not apply to your next wild
shape form. If you do not activate your
wild shape ability during the duration
of enhance wild shape, the spell has no
effect.
You select one of the following
enhancements when you cast this
spell.
• Assume the form of a plant with your
next wild shape.
• Gain the extraordinary abilities of
the new form.
• The new form assumed is stronger
than normal and gains a +2 bonus
to Strength.
• The new form assumed is more agile
than normal and gains a +2 bonus to
Dexterity.
• The new form assumed is healthier
than normal and gains a +2 bonus to
Constitution.
A druid can be affected by more than
one enhance wild shape spell at a time,
but a different wild shape enhancement
must be chosen each time.
From Spell Compendium.
Shake well, wait, cry into pillow.
For additional spice, examine:
Assume Supernatural Ability [general] Savage Species, pg 30]
Preq: Wisdom 13 (I hope your druid has at least 13 wisdom ;0 ) and ability to change shape magically. Dur.
Benefit:
You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through the polymorph spell or similar effect.
I will diminish, and go into the west, and remain Dr_rocktopus.
Skin of Kaletor, dragon magazine #324, -6 to cha checks, +4 to effective druid level for wildshaping, 12k gold, cloak.
Add the amulet, and we turn into something with 28 hit dice.
Oh, sorry, how much did mister 27 CR have? :D
EDIT: Also, absolutely 0 trickery or rules lawyering.
Moreover, I take it, Rocktopus, that nothing about the Divine Minion gives a character the prerequisites he needs to qualify for the aberration wild shape. At least I didn't see anything in the description.
Thanks for indulging someone just trying to understand the rules. --ShriekingDrake
Let us leave aside the hilarious but unneeded options, and follow a path more in line with sofawall's suggestion or simply enjoy the brutal lunacy of assume supernatural ability in-and-of itself. Effectively, I am quite certain we can get enough power behind us in one fashion or another to reach either the gibbering orb or something equally obscene. I mean, enhance wild shape would be bad enough, and that's straight legal. Turn into a spell-weaver, or with no trickery at all, become a hive mother. So many options! Don't forget your wilding clasps, either. You might check out the MoMF Handbook.
Might I also ask about the allowed LA for your race? Since you start at 20.......