Druid Balance Attempt

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

sofawall

Mar 26, 2009 2:40:47		Not by me, but by my DM. He has houseruled that for druids to get any spells other than PHB, he has to take two feats, both of which are basically useless, other than gaining access to spells. The wizard/sorc also has to do this, but only has to take one feat instead of two, and oddly enough, the cleric doesn't have to take any.

I think my DM is paranoid about me optimizing, as my previous character was the aforementioned sorcerer, who unfortunately died while crashing an air taxi into a building. The rest of the party wasn't in the taxi, luckily. :D

So, do you think this is fair/should I go for it, or should I say "Bollocks to SpC!" and take something else?
#2

dr_rocktopus

Mar 26, 2009 2:43:06 		My impulse is that it is bollocks-o-clock and you should bring down Ur-Priest flavored lunacy or opt for a dragoon, because, seriously, dragoons.
#3

sofawall

Mar 26, 2009 2:55:19 		Unfortunately, short of my second suicide in this campaign (I wanted to try a new char, plus the cleric wanted to kill me) I'm already a Druid 5. I made my Druid before I knew about the houserule, as I kinda made him while the other PCs were trying to find my last character's body.
#4

dr_rocktopus

Mar 26, 2009 3:17:10 		Good on ya! If finding the body takes less than a day, you did it wrong!

Okay, okay, druid druid... with... huh. How do you build a druid who's feat-screwed like that? Are flaws allowed? If flaws are allowed, we can just bull right through it. Spellcasting, particularly druid spellcasting, is worth two feats at least.
#5

sofawall

Mar 26, 2009 3:25:04 		Nope, no flaws. Like I said, my DM didn't like my optimization. I'm considering suiciding again, then just making a Bard. My group thinks Bards are weak. They haven't met Snowflake Wardance/Dragonfire Inspiration :D

Also, my first open feat comes at 9th level, as I;m going to be taking Natural Spell at 6th. Talk about feat screwed. I'm thinking of just dumping spellcasting and going into something for good wildshape.
#6

Weezel

Mar 26, 2009 3:52:40 		If you can't kick ass as a druid with only PHB spells then you're doing something wrong... sure there is tons of great stuff outside of core, but not enough to warrant 2 feats IMO, and there are surely enough good spells in PHB alone to allow you to wipe the floor with balanced encounters.

Personally I wouldn't even consider taking the feats for extra spells - take those two feats to choose SF-Conjuration and Greenbound Summoning... what more do you need?
#7

sofawall

Mar 26, 2009 3:58:56 		Yeah, but I like gish-types, and as a Wildshape druid I could gish wéo even multiclassing! And I really like Bite of the foo`. What would you recommend changing them for in core
#8

Weezel

Mar 26, 2009 4:12:56 		Your standard set of Barkskin, Stat buffs (bears endurance, bulls str, etc) and defensive/utility buffs (resist energy, longstrider, pass without trace, spider climb) as needed at low levels. Moving up Greater Magic Fang, Air Walk, Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin if you got the money.

Add either Monk's Belt or a dip in monk and you'll have a pretty good AC (don't forget mage armour - potions if nessissary). Because you're not using as many spells for buffing as you would be SpC available, you get more for summoning which kicks ass with greenbound summoning. Just fill all those slots with blasts or utility and swap them out for plant critter summoning as required.

With a Veil of Storms just a basic Call Lightning spell can get you through a combat if you can't get at the enemy (or you can't hurt em physically for some reason). A few 7d6 lightning bolts really ruin some bad guys day :D
#9

dr_rocktopus

Mar 26, 2009 4:13:37 		I also feel that bards are really weak, having to rely on near exploits and PrCs almost exclusively to get any purchase at all. I mean, fighters are weaker but.... of the caster classes bard's snuggling up to adept unless you have a large party and\or access to a great deal of splat books.

Mmmmm Ye Olde Call Lightning.
Also worth mentioning, if you can get a hold of wilding clasps, it's basically game-over.
#10

Weezel

Mar 26, 2009 4:22:11
I also feel that bards are really weak, having to rely on near exploits and PrCs almost exclusively to get any purchase at all. I mean, fighters are weaker but.... of the caster classes bard's snuggling up to adept unless you have a large party and\or access to a great deal of splat books.

Kinda off-topic, but let me just say that at low levels having a bard makes a pretty big difference. Level 3 - song of the heart, inspirational boost, badge of valour. That's +4 to hit and damage. At that level this is a HUGE bonus. It doesn't scale up at well, that's true, but you can pull that off with just one cheap item and a 1st level spell - all other aspects of the character can be focused on combat or spellcasting keeping you viable. Sure, they can't stack up to a real wizard, but still they don't suck nearly as hard as people claim (in my experience that is).

Mmmmm Ye Olde Call Lightning.
Also worth mentioning, if you can get a hold of wilding clasps, it's basically game-over.

Yes! Try this for low level progression;

Human Druid
1 Spell Focus (conjuration), H Greenbound Summoning
3 Craft Wonderous Item
6 Natural Spell

Craft your own wildling clasps for 1/2 price. Craft your own Veil of Storms. Add odd-numbered stat bonuses to your magic gear (since a LOT of wildshape forms have odd numbered str/dex/con). Depending on your wildshape desires you might want to craft some Bracers of Lightning and use a form with lots of attacks (Dire Lion is great with pounce) since it'll add 1d6 electric damage to every attack.

I'm currently playing a druid with craft wonderous item and it has made a huge difference. With the cost of buying wildling clasps I would have about half as much gear as I do by 10th level. At most you'll be behind the party's level for 1 session every couple of levels as the difference in xp is relatively small.

Hope that helps ;)
#11

sofawall

Mar 26, 2009 4:36:22
I also feel that bards are really weak, having to rely on near exploits and PrCs almost exclusively to get any purchase at all.

Well, if you think 12d6 sonic per attack plus cha to hit is weak, well, I don`t know what to tell you.
#12

dr_rocktopus

Mar 26, 2009 4:42:41 		Oh no, I know that with the splats in place, they can hit like a swoop-bike carrying a hutt. I just meant that until you start reaching pretty far, they just don't stack up well. My perspective on that is that a class which needs desperately to have access to splat books has balance issues. I understand this is not a popular perspective, nor am I articulating it well right now.
#13

sofawall

Mar 26, 2009 4:53:18 		Oh, yeah, in core only, sans diplobard, you won`t be able to win a beatstick fight with a wizard never mind be useful at high levels.
#14

dr_rocktopus

Mar 26, 2009 5:06:02 		I'm not suggesting core only, though. I guess what I'm asking is...
Is Sublime Chore really still a bard? I mean... I dunno. I get enough trouble with my players trying to explain to them why fighter is weak. As an aside, I actually disallowed fighter in my campaign and it actually worked out fine. We allow ToB so...
#15

sofawall

Mar 26, 2009 5:23:33
Is Sublime Chore really still a bard?

No, no, my build uses Bard 15/Dread pirate 5, and works with bard 20 as well (although you may want a level of fighter or something to get +16 BAB)
#16

dr_rocktopus

Mar 26, 2009 5:33:19 		/nod/
It was more of a generic question. I'd love to see your full build sometime, as I have players who insist on rolling straight bard20 with no optimization so... it'd be nice to be able to say "You can do this too without sacrificing your character concept...."
#17

sofawall

Mar 26, 2009 5:42:25 		Well... You do have to be dragonblooded, and focus quite heavily on Inspire Courage, but you can do pretty well (something like 8d6) without much work. Heck, with a bard 20, you could get 8d6, with only one feat and no other bonuses. Heck, my build could probably do better than 12d6 if I worked at it a bit.

Also, spellscales are dragonblooded, and give +2 cha, so they work well too :D

It basically takes two feats and dragonblood subtype, however you get it, to make it shine.
#18

sofawall

Mar 27, 2009 23:14:18 		Update on my situation!

I am allowed to take two flaws to balance the two feats, so what should I take? I was thinking Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summoning. Also, wildshape doesn't take the animal's stats, it adds their stat mods (stat -10, or -11 if odd) to mine. This is a HUGE benefit, as my dex is 15 and con is 18. Str, unfortunately, takes a hit of 2, as I have 8 str. How would you recommend I take advantage of this? I'm currently just using Lion and Ape.

EDIT: Also, I use a sling, when not wildshaped. Don't ask. Anyway, how can I benefit from this?

Oh yeah, another one of our party died again. Lately we've been killing them off at the rate of one per session :D

EDIT2: Oh yeah, The Rule of Cool. Basically, the DM is willing to fudge/break rules and dice rolls as long as it obeys The Rule of Cool. So anything that makes my character cool is great. (Also, my dice obey The Rule of Cool. I turn into a lion and pounce, I roll 3 20s in a row with my first claw. Next, when simply full attacking, I miss all three times against a freakin' WOLF. A cr 1 WOLF! Urg.
#19

Weezel

Mar 28, 2009 0:26:11
I am allowed to take two flaws to balance the two feats, so what should I take? I was thinking Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summoning. Also, wildshape doesn't take the animal's stats, it adds their stat mods (stat -10, or -11 if odd) to mine. This is a HUGE benefit, as my dex is 15 and con is 18. Str, unfortunately, takes a hit of 2, as I have 8 str. How would you recommend I take advantage of this? I'm currently just using Lion and Ape.

I'd suggest taking those two feats, along with Greenbound Summoning, which will turn your summoned creatures into wrecking machines! Never turn into a lion - always use Dire Lion (I believe the when you get large wildshape you can access either). From memory I think it has 26 str so you'd still be alright, and it can pounce with bite/claw/claw/rake/rake plus a free grapple if you hit with the bite (and if you grapple them you can rake/rake). If you are able to have Craft Wonderous Item at 3rd level, or use those custom crafting rules, try and make some Bracers of Lighting which will add 1d6 electricity damage to all 5 of your natural attacks on a pounce. It also works while wildshaped as a bonus.


EDIT: Also, I use a sling, when not wildshaped. Don't ask. Anyway, how can I benefit from this?

When not wildshaped - summon your augmented greenbound animals. Using a sling is a waste (trust me I'm playing a halfling druid at the moment :D). At best you could use Magic Stone to make the rocks magic... but with your str your base damage is still 1d2-1.... 1d2 with magic stones. Maybe you could sling tanglefoot bags or something? The way you describe your current wealth though, you should probably be saving everything you can for permanent gear.

Hope that helps a bit ;)
#20

sofawall

Mar 28, 2009 0:36:09
Never turn into a lion - always use Dire Lion

Seems kinda obvious. I'm level 5 mind you, so next feat goes to Natural Spell, but lvl 9 may go to Greenbound Summoning. Me and my DM both forgot about size limits on Wildshape (first time either of us have had a druid in a game O.o)

Guess I'll know for next time :D
#21

Weezel

Mar 28, 2009 0:44:12
Seems kinda obvious. I'm level 5 mind you, so next feat goes to Natural Spell, but lvl 9 may go to Greenbound Summoning. Me and my DM both forgot about size limits on Wildshape (first time either of us have had a druid in a game O.o)

Guess I'll know for next time :D

Well if you're working with 2 flaws and are human, try this

1 SF(Conjuration), Greenbound Summoning, (flaws) Extra casting feats
3 Augment Summoning
6 Natural Spell

Greenbound is way better than Augmented summons. There is a full list of all the SNA creatures with greenbound templates on it somewhere around here... try in the handy links.

**edit - with size limits try using the Jaguar which still gets pounce, but is medium (it also has climb speed which is handy). It's more dex-based than str-based but the feel of it's similar to lions :D
#22

sofawall

Mar 28, 2009 0:53:46 		Cool, thanks. Unfortunately, I'm halfling, although I may be able to work in Strongheart Halfling. That gives a bonus feat, right? Where's that from?

EDIT: Just looked at Greenbound. CR+2, or LA+8, on all summons, for the cost of a feat? I think I just may be a summoner :D

On that note, what's a good high con form for wildshape? We play without most errata, so wildshape affects hitpoints :D
#23

Weezel

Mar 28, 2009 1:01:01
Cool, thanks. Unfortunately, I'm halfling, although I may be able to work in Strongheart Halfling. That gives a bonus feat, right? Where's that from?

EDIT: Just looked at Greenbound. CR+2, or LA+8, on all summons, for the cost of a feat? I think I just may be a summoner :D

Strongheart Halfling gets a bonus feat instead of the racial saves bonus. It's from Race of Faerun pg.78.

Yep... greenbound is as awesome as it looks, especially at low-mid levels. Adding all those stat bonuses along with fast healing, tremorsense and DR10 is amazing on a wolf for a 1st level spell.
#24

sofawall

Mar 28, 2009 1:04:06 		Hey, I'm at low-mid levels!

And I can retrain it when animals buffs get really powerful!