I must say, this forum has helped me select spells when I didn't feel like splat booking.
But, I have a question. Actually, looking for suggestions.
Recently, I have been playing in a game with a lot of party members. (Eight of them to be exact)
And I was playing a Druid. Now, we have had an issue with powergamers. (I am talking people powergaming so hard that they just make up abilities.) Now, I have been asked to remake my druid because some of the party members feel as if I am "shining" just too much. (Either through tanking, direct damage, AoE control etc.)
I have been given the ability to rebuild my character because I am simply doing too much. =_=
I am playing an Elf, which the DM has hosue ruled as still taking the hit to con but gaining +2 dex and +4 int.
I then, at level 1, chose Vow of Poverty(to fit the image)(I used a flaw to squeeze this in at level 1)
Using the Unearthed Arcana rules I picked up a few flaws along the way. Mostly to make sure that I got the pre reqs for Abberant wild shaping, and the likes.
Also, I took Nightbringers Initiate, mostly for the aspect that I would like my character be a hunter as well. A hunter and protector of nature who becomes one with the universe by assuming the various shapes was the image I was going for. And stealth is sometimes better than just charging in.
I used the flaws I had to get the Assume Supernatural Ability. Mostly for the Beholder and the Choker.
And greenbound summoning. Mostly for the nifty ability to use entangle and wall of thorns.
So I guess my question is what should I be doing to be great at AoE control? I was thinking about taking Extraordinary spell aim, and scult spell, so team mates are being hit by random spells.
*shrugs* I want to be able to wild shape into a plethora of things while maintaining my role as the "AoE control guy."
Here is what you do. Remake your druid so it uses precisely two books:
Player Handbook
Monster Manual
and that's IT. no DMG stuff, no unearthed arcana stuff, no weird animals, nothing else. Limit yourself to those TWO BOOKS ONLY.
No flaws, no traits, no races, not even the SRD races, and dont choose any of the races in the Monster Manual.
Replace your animal companion with one from the normal list. Remove all feats that are not in the Player's Handbook. Remove all spells and forms not in the PHB or first Monster Manual. Remove all extra or bonus feats, remove all magic items not specifically given to you by the DM. Do not BUY magic items.
And then you should be okay...
And leaves no flavor. Though doable.
Sorry about the ambiguity, I was not aware of the sort of information that was needed.
But let's say, that I wanted to be really good at AoE control, which is what they want me to be as a Druid, how would that work in core?
....Ouch. That's hellacious.
And leaves no flavor. Though doable.
Sorry about the ambiguity, I was not aware of the sort of information that was needed.
But let's say, that I wanted to be really good at AoE control, which is what they want me to be as a Druid, how would that work in core?
How does it work? Really, really, really well. Just look at the spell list! And use grappling animals as 'control'. What you did is that you took arguably the most powerful class in the game, and cheesed it out big time. Remember, crunch can be independent of flavor -- practice getting the flavor you want by reflavoring things without going for all the absolute insane, crazy stuff. Remember, Druid is arguably one of the most powerful classes in the game ALREADY... no need to go crazy making it more powerful!
And by 'no races' I mean 'no non phb races'.
But what my fear is
1.)Someone wtih Freedom of Movement
2.)My compatriots not able to handle their own. (Mostly through, what I deem as, poor prestige class selection and awful spell selection)
I don't want to over do anything, but I want to have the versatility to compensate. Stealthing, damage, spell casting, tanking.
I made a D-zilla.
You have a couple problems
1: 8 people. Thats a challenge, my own group has 6-9 depending on who shows up, I know what thats like for DM to try and work with.
2: Several power-gamers/characters including your own vs how many non-pwer gamers?
Thats always an issue.
My group just went througha huge shake-up, some hard feelings etc..., because a few powergamers were destroying monsters and the fun for everyone else.
Look at the other players, look at their characters,now look at me ( Monocle Smile ) dang Old Spice commercials lol...does your play style/characters match or complement the others. If yes, great, if not can it be adjusted? Game I'm playing, I'm contanstanty restraining powergaming/rules lawyering.
What is everyone else playing. With 8 people theres no needs to be super-everything, just find a weak spot and fill it.
If you like wild-shaping, seems you do, but want more then the basic PH, go for PrC's: Master of Many Forms and Warshaper. Won't get addt'l spells, iirc, but gain a lot of wildshaping versatility.
Do not allow wild armor either as that stuff is crazy with a druid or vow of poverty (this is one the only classes that gets a lot from VoP but losses little).
I can voouch from personal experience if you allow too much to a druid it gets bad fast, even if they are not trying too hard.
I would like to be the person who can control the battle field, effectively without hampering my other party members's style.
I didn't realize I had power gamed to be honest. I just thought, that simply turning into a beholder is not that awesome, it's the eyes that make a beholder scary. Also, casting two spells in a round is very nice. (Which is why I picked up the Choker ability).
What are good feats that improve wild shaping and keeps spells, while maintaining my role as the "battle field control"
I have been looking at extraordinary aim and sculpt spell. I was wondering if there was anything else that would help me. Pursue AoE and Wild Shaping. (With minimal hits to spell casting. I would like to have Shapechange and Frostfell)
Or... dare I say it... go into Blighter, as it sucks compared to normal druids
If I wanted to do range. (And heaven forbid I take zen archery) I would out perform the archer/ranger guy. Out stelath the rogue? Take Nightbringers Initiate...
So the conumdrum is how you not optimize a class that comes optimized?
I feel bad for even picking spells on my Druid, let alone taking Natural Spell. AND THAT'S A STAPLE IN DRUID BUILDS!
Even with the parameters of PHB1 and MM1.
Is there a "Character DeOptimize" board I can go to?
Keep Vow of Poverty since, from what I've seen while reading up on the variant, it's about the only way to really optimize one, but you still won't be at the power you probably have as it is.
Since you've been asked to re-roll pretty much from the ground up, ask if you can change ability scores, too. Shapeshift druids suffer from MAD a bit more. Go in this order accordingly:
Wis* > Dex* > Str > Con* > Int* > Cha
Anything marked with an asterisk should be what you put your enhancement bonuses from VoP into. Don't put it to Strength since your shapeshifted forms provide their own enhancement to strength, and will supersede it anyways. Also, take Intuitive Attack with one of the bonus feats as early as you can. Improved Natural Attack with either bite and/or slam will increase your damage, but no iterative attacks will still keep you from outperforming.
It's one way I know you can make it work. Might be worth a shot.
okay, first ... get rid of the flaws! period.
second, use greenbound summoning the way the designer of the feat intended.
3rd, use the racial stats that are actually in the book. sure, while that -4 is to a tertiary/quartary ability, it still drops your skill points enough to limit your build options.
4th, your concept seems to be conflicted. you take VoP, and then take abberant wildshape and nightbringers initiate -- what gives? AFAIK, you either A) keep VoP and lose the other 2 , or B) lose VoP and keep the other 2.
5th, lose assume supernatural ability.
this will let you get a character that is still awesome, but definitely puts a governor on you. remember, the druid gets class abilities that individually are better than whole classes.
and lastely, yes, even a core-only druid is awesome!
I got rid of the flaws. Kept the Abberant Wild Shape.
I got rid of the Greenbound, and the VoP.
I picked up the Dragon WildShape.
Scult Spell and Extraordinary Aim I picked up.
I stuck with core only items. Sadly however, my group has this tendancy to attack me, and my character, so I went out of core for a few handy spells to make sure I can handle things.
Heart of XXX spells*Complete Mage*
Owl's Insight *SpC*
Blizzard. *Frost*(Also my favorite spell in the game)
Tortoise Shell *Because I find it's an hilarious spell*
But even with my respec, and me just hanging in the back ground, using line entangles, and occasionally WildShaping, things escalated to the point that the game died.
There was a moment when I was being attacked my four out of seven party members, in the middle of a battlefeild, surrounded by warring soilders, and my party mate; a half-golem Warpriest, some Psionic person, and a homunuclus who kept blasting the Half-Golem with fire balls giving him HP in the three hundreds.
I was playing by the rules, and to be honest, I was still being attacked. They started making things up, giving themselves fake stats just so they can win. My DM forced me to undergo an alignment shift, because I was attacking the Warpriest who smote me twice. (In previous sessions and the same one).
Luckilly I played Neutral so I just went Neutral-Evil and retained my spells and such.
Pretty soon they just forwent the books and started making stuff up. Like stacking Divine Power to give him a +34 attack progression, and stacking haste until he had like seven attacks extra. Or the Psion who was taking three Standard actions in one round.
Eh, sorry for the rant, but for the update the game died.
You never feel so helpless in a campaign until egos start getting in the way and people stop having fun and start attacking one another.
Thanks for the help guys. I appreciate it.
(I typically never give that answer; but this seems hopeless).
That party attacked you, and has a habit of doing so clearly shows you're not welcome there, whether thats your fault or theirs idk and doesn't really matter to the forum discussion.
Unfortunately the story of what happened reads way to false for me. You state that there are several powergamers in group, I assume they are the ones attacking you, and that you have un-optimized your character to be within the bounds set to you, and they couldn't wipe you in one round. I just don't see how thats possible. Even your optimized build, any of the power character concepts I've made/seen could theoretically wipe it one round with no real problem. That 4 power players, supposedly doing all this outlandish things, couldn't...tells me that theres either a lot of info missing, or perhaps thats just embarrassing on their part. Plus, where the DM in all this.
Ok, I don't really care about any of those questions/concerns, but this just reads like a self-deluded account of what happened. No offense, it's just very difficult to believe. I do hope you next group meshes well with your play style and goes better though.
Game on!
Perhaps it was that kind of 'powergamer'?
Unfortunately the story of what happened reads way to false for me. You state that there are several powergamers in group, I assume they are the ones attacking you, and that you have un-optimized your character to be within the bounds set to you, and they couldn't wipe you in one round. I just don't see how thats possible. Even your optimized build, any of the power character concepts I've made/seen could theoretically wipe it one round with no real problem. That 4 power players, supposedly doing all this outlandish things, couldn't...tells me that theres either a lot of info missing, or perhaps thats just embarrassing on their part. Plus, where the DM in all this.
Ok, I don't really care about any of those questions/concerns, but this just reads like a self-deluded account of what happened. No offense, it's just very difficult to believe. I do hope you next group meshes well with your play style and goes better though.
It could be that they are powergamers, but basically their builds don't power up until later levels. Sometimes this happens, i've seen builds that go from semi-ok to broken in a level jump between 8 and 9 for example, just grabbing that extra feat or class feature.
So maybe their powergaming builds had not yet capped out... such as persisting giant size to deal epic damage.
Don't you know how easy it is to THINK you are making really powerful min/maxed choices and not actually be doing so in D&D? Why do you think massive template stacking without LA buyoff and dual wielding two large bastard swords is popular? For lots of people 'powergaming' isn't actually all that powerful, but they think it is!
Perhaps it was that kind of 'powergamer'?
You could be right there. And with Druids it is very easy, even with unoptimized ones, to outshine pretty much every party member.
I'd say find a new group too, just because they're not being fair on you, IF you're being honest
I know from experience though in our group we used to have a guy complain about players killing his character, or we let his character die....usually after he "accidentally" fireballed the party for the X time. He was honestly confused as to why we disliked his characters/play style.
2: No one sounds like they knew what they were doing. 8 players, really? Crazy race bonuses to an already powerful class?
Conclusions:
This is a case of Mismatched Party Syndrome. Playstyles didn't match, people didn't get along, and no one was dealing with it maturely, from the limited info I can glean from your posts. I run a couple of D&D nights at the LFGS I work at, and one of the most important things I have found is to match playstyles. Storytellers with RPers, Powergamers with competent DMs, and people who don't understand the rules with people who do. Because when no one understands the rules, you may as well be playing marbles instead.
I am sorry to hear that you guys couldn't work out your differences. 8 people though- barely tolerable in a 4e game (talking to the expert), insane in a decent 3.x game.