Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bobvosh Mar 21, 2008 0:39:30	I'm curious what animals CO thinks is best for an animal companion and wild shaping. In general, and for this build (list a few levels if switch is most advantageous.) Right now I'm 2 wizard 4 Druid 2 Arcane Hierophant (RotW) I took natural bond, so I count as an 8th level druid for my companion, and am using a riding dog. What would be better? When should I take it? What wild shapes should I look into? Most books allowed, not sure about 3.0 books yet. Thanks
#2 stickboy2323 Mar 21, 2008 0:51:14	I know that the Fleshraker (MM3) is considered to be powerful for both AC and WS.
#3 aftercrescent Mar 21, 2008 3:33:00	+1 for the fleshraker Get venomfire from Serpent Kingdoms (FR material). That spell will ROCK.
#4 cannibalsmith Mar 21, 2008 5:19:43	+1 for the fleshraker. Once the DM inevitably bans the fleshraker, giant octopus is an awesome core Wild Shape form. Lots of attacks, huge reach.
#5 moody Mar 21, 2008 14:57:32	Fleshraker is imba. As a player, I wouldn't take it on princible.
#6 nunkuruji Mar 21, 2008 15:26:01	Perhaps a Tiger The Were-spell buffs from Spell Compendium coupled with the Companion Spellbond feat seems pretty mean
#7 bobvosh Mar 21, 2008 23:42:24	+1 for the fleshraker Get venomfire from Serpent Kingdoms (FR material). That spell will ROCK. I liked the fleshraker. I can't use that spell, it is retarded. VENOMFIRE Transmutation [Acid] Level: Cleric 3, druid 3, ranger 4 Components: V, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You cause the subject’s venom to become caustic, dealing an additional 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level with each use. This spell has no effect on creatures that do not naturally produce poison. Material Component: A drop of acid. What nonsense is that?
#8 jandor1 Mar 22, 2008 0:06:55	that isn't nonsense, that's delicious, delicious synergy. figure you have to be level 5 to cast it on your fleshraker ... that means (iirc) that each time it hits with a claw/rake, the baddie take 5d6 acid damage and makes a fort save vs. dex damage. nice. big cats (lions, tigers, and leopards oh my!) are good to wild shape into because of the number of attacks they get ... mix with produce flame for some fun results. crocs make good grapplers, replaced by bears at higher levels, etc.
#9 aftercrescent Mar 22, 2008 0:32:28	I liked the fleshraker. I can't use that spell, it is retarded. VENOMFIRE Transmutation [Acid] Level: Cleric 3, druid 3, ranger 4 Components: V, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You cause the subject’s venom to become caustic, dealing an additional 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level with each use. This spell has no effect on creatures that do not naturally produce poison. Material Component: A drop of acid. What nonsense is that? It's not nonsense. It's a spell. And a good one. Just because you don't like it or feel it is overpowered doesn't negate its potency. :P
#10 The_Orange_Pet Mar 22, 2008 1:00:43	Fleshraker is the best choice at that level. How are you casting 2nd level arcane spells to meet the AH pre-req with only 2 wizard levels?
#11 cannibalsmith Mar 22, 2008 2:34:51	Fleshraker is the best choice at that level. You mean, at every level.
#12 The_Orange_Pet Mar 22, 2008 10:42:09	You mean, at every level. Nah, I mean at that level. I've played with them at various levels from like 5-15 and they are just terrible after your DM starts raising EL's past 10. They have crappy HD and Str to begin with which makes high AC opponents simply impossible and their poison save DCs pretty much stay low forever. They're the bomb with Venomfire, but if you're casting that spell your game is already shot anyway so theres no point in discussing it. After adding the fact that the base creature is medium which means they need to be animal growthed to ever hope of hitting large creatures with reach, you really end up with a companion who is kindof just there to pick up the smaller, weaker, less armored opponents. One of the best high level companions is the Fhorge from FF. This beast is one of the only critters you can get that has a single natural weapon which grants it Strx1.5 to damage. This is huge as it multiplies your buffs into even more insanity. Its Large size, has Improved Grab on its bite, has Constrict on its bite(and enough HD to make 2x Constrict attempts per round), it rages like a Barb when its hit(insane), it has a strange form of Diehard that makes it immune to death by damage when buffed with Delay Death, AND it has Powerful Charge. Seriously look at this thing for future game sessions.
#13 aftercrescent Mar 22, 2008 15:17:10	Nah, I mean at that level. I've played with them at various levels from like 5-15 and they are just terrible after your DM starts raising EL's past 10. They have crappy HD and Str to begin with which makes high AC opponents simply impossible and their poison save DCs pretty much stay low forever. They're the bomb with Venomfire, but if you're casting that spell your game is already shot anyway so theres no point in discussing it. After adding the fact that the base creature is medium which means they need to be animal growthed to ever hope of hitting large creatures with reach, you really end up with a companion who is kindof just there to pick up the smaller, weaker, less armored opponents. One of the best high level companions is the Fhorge from FF. This beast is one of the only critters you can get that has a single natural weapon which grants it Strx1.5 to damage. This is huge as it multiplies your buffs into even more insanity. Its Large size, has Improved Grab on its bite, has Constrict on its bite(and enough HD to make 2x Constrict attempts per round), it rages like a Barb when its hit(insane), it has a strange form of Diehard that makes it immune to death by damage when buffed with Delay Death, AND it has Powerful Charge. Seriously look at this thing for future game sessions. The problem with the Fhorge is it is not a druid animal companion option. Tough luck. Also, as for fleshraker, you can share a lot of your buffs with it, especially if you get companion spellbond. That makes it much worth it. Its HD grow nicely with your leveling, and if you choose proper feats it can make a great combatant at high levels. Saying it needs animal growth is like saying a medium fighter needs enlarge person. It doesn't. It's useful, yeah, but you can manage fine without it.
#14 vulcanus Mar 22, 2008 17:56:57	The problem with the Fhorge is it is not a druid animal companion option. Tough luck. Also, as for fleshraker, you can share a lot of your buffs with it, especially if you get companion spellbond. That makes it much worth it. Its HD grow nicely with your leveling, and if you choose proper feats it can make a great combatant at high levels. Saying it needs animal growth is like saying a medium fighter needs enlarge person. It doesn't. It's useful, yeah, but you can manage fine without it. Medium Fighters do need enlarge person, yeah?
#15 shubniggurath Mar 22, 2008 18:33:08	At level 8 brown bear >> fleshraker, unless you fight only people with an absymally low grapple check/fortitude save
#16 The_Orange_Pet Mar 22, 2008 23:47:29	For all: Fhorge is an available animal companion post PHB2. Anyway, try Druid4/Wiz3/AHXX. How you wildshape depends on what you expect your character to be able to do. Grappling, pouncing, aerial and utility are common groupings.
#17 bobvosh Mar 23, 2008 0:26:32	Fleshraker is the best choice at that level. How are you casting 2nd level arcane spells to meet the AH pre-req with only 2 wizard levels? Precocious apprentice, focused specialist. As for size, it grows at 9HD to large. Which bumps its strength and grapple. Plus you can give it improved grapple, and a few magic items. Not like druids need that many items on themselves until they can get wild and other similar effects.
#18 aftercrescent Mar 23, 2008 0:31:49	Precocious apprentice, focused specialist. As for size, it grows at 9HD to large. Which bumps its strength and grapple. Plus you can give it improved grapple, and a few magic items. Not like druids need that many items on themselves until they can get wild and other similar effects. Actually the bonus hit dice for an animal companion never increase its size, unfortunately. Still, the sheer number of attacks, along with shared buffs make it one of the best animal companions around. A fhorge suffers from the one attack flaw. At higher levels having only one attack, regardless of how powerful it is ends up a weakness. When it misses, everything is wasted. When you have a build that can auto pounce with improved grab and pin in the same round and you buff it like you should be, it is an amazing animal companion. The fleshraker wins against most if not all animal companions. Plus it can go into dungeons where larger beasts can't. The only animal companions I'd pick over a fleshraker at high enough levels are the dire polar bear or the dire tiger. And really, just wildshape into the dire polar bear and have the dire tiger as an AC. It'll rock. So will keeping the fleshraker though, your call.
#19 shubniggurath Mar 23, 2008 1:01:45	[...] When you have a build that can auto pounce with improved grab and pin in the same round and you buff it like you should be, it is an amazing animal companion. The fleshraker wins against most if not all animal companions. Plus it can go into dungeons where larger beasts can't. The only animal companions I'd pick over a fleshraker at high enough levels are the dire polar bear or the dire tiger. And really, just wildshape into the dire polar bear and have the dire tiger as an AC. It'll rock. So will keeping the fleshraker though, your call. I disagree. There is usually no problem in bringing a large animal in dungeons. Also both the trip (necessary for grapple) and the grapple check of the flashraker are ridiculously low. Adter level 6-8 Fleshraker is useless. Decent AC, low hp/CON, low AB, low damage, low DC poison, low trip, low grapple check.... he can do everything... bad. Better to have a bear. A bear does ONE thing (grapple and decent damage) but at least he is good at it. Your buff argument is moot. Any buff you can put on the fleshraker you can put on the brown bear too.
#20 aftercrescent Mar 23, 2008 1:26:39	It depends on your DM whether you can take a large creature into dungeons or not, so let us not get into that debate. Let's look at Druid 10, A brown bear (your suggestion) will have 8 HD and a +19 to grapple and do two claws at 1d8+9. A fleshraker will have 8HD and a +8 grapple and do 4 claws at 1d6+4. The brown bear clearly has the better grapple and averages 27 damage in a grapple, while fleshraker only averages 3 points more (30). Of course you're right, you have to win the grapple first. If you're in a situation where only a large creature works, casting animal growth on the fleshraker will place it on par with the bear and doing much, much more damage. Double, to be precise. Now that favors my build in saying large only. Clearly if you animal growth the brown bear, it will do nicely. Here's a thought though... What if you're against GOD? At level 10, the fleshraker can easily make the jump OVER the Big Stupid Fighter and his grapple will win against said GOD. Now he gets a full attack, does full damage (much more than a brown bear, even without buffs) and will PIN. What's that? God can't cast spells because he can't talk while pinned? Wow... Damage output much better? Did I not even touch the poison, which as more HD and Con are added and the save increases, becomes better? And we're just talking about things without buffs. Yes a brown bear can grapple better, but a fleshraker will outdamage it and has so many more options. You're welcome to your opinion if you still think it is better, but I've seen both in play, and the bear has some advantages, but in most instances it comes down to your campaign. A large bear won't do well in town. A medium dinosaur on a leash will. The fleshraker can go so many places the bear can't and can do a lot more damage... ;)
#21 The_Orange_Pet Mar 23, 2008 9:18:00	Precocious apprentice, focused specialist. As for size, it grows at 9HD to large. Which bumps its strength and grapple. Plus you can give it improved grapple, and a few magic items. Not like druids need that many items on themselves until they can get wild and other similar effects. Ah ok. Yeah, it won't grow, but it'll still be fine for a couple levels. By all means, try it out at higher levels as well, but remember to gauge its performance against the other available options each time you level.
#22 panserbjorn_x Mar 23, 2008 12:37:53	Precocious apprentice, focused specialist. As for size, it grows at 9HD to large. Which bumps its strength and grapple. Plus you can give it improved grapple, and a few magic items. Not like druids need that many items on themselves until they can get wild and other similar effects. Class feature based hit dice advancements (companion, mount, etc) do not count as progressing hit dice to get size increases. Your companion will remain whatever size it was to begin with. ~P_X~
#23 shubniggurath Mar 24, 2008 11:11:48	It depends on your DM whether you can take a large creature into dungeons or not, so let us not get into that debate. Let's look at Druid 10, A brown bear (your suggestion) will have 8 HD and a +19 to grapple and do two claws at 1d8+9. A fleshraker will have 8HD and a +8 grapple and do 4 claws at 1d6+4. The brown bear clearly has the better grapple and averages 27 damage in a grapple, while fleshraker only averages 3 points more (30). Of course you're right, you have to win the grapple first. If you're in a situation where only a large creature works, casting animal growth on the fleshraker will place it on par with the bear and doing much, much more damage. Double, to be precise. Now that favors my build in saying large only. Clearly if you animal growth the brown bear, it will do nicely. Here's a thought though... What if you're against GOD? At level 10, the fleshraker can easily make the jump OVER the Big Stupid Fighter and his grapple will win against said GOD. Now he gets a full attack, does full damage (much more than a brown bear, even without buffs) and will PIN. What's that? God can't cast spells because he can't talk while pinned? Wow... Damage output much better? Did I not even touch the poison, which as more HD and Con are added and the save increases, becomes better? And we're just talking about things without buffs. Yes a brown bear can grapple better, but a fleshraker will outdamage it and has so many more options. You're welcome to your opinion if you still think it is better, but I've seen both in play, and the bear has some advantages, but in most instances it comes down to your campaign. A large bear won't do well in town. A medium dinosaur on a leash will. The fleshraker can go so many places the bear can't and can do a lot more damage... ;) Aftercrescent, to say that the fleshraker deals more damage you are assuming that it will hit. Considering that the bear will have an higher attack bonus, the EXPECTED damage (that is, the damage weighted for the to hit probability) of the fleshraker will be LOWER than the bear against decent AC opponents. As I said above, the fleshraker shines only against low AC, low STR opponents. That is, arcane casters (this includes your GOD example), the bear is better against ANYONE else. So the bottomline is: if you want your animal companion to be just an anti-arcane caster OR if your DM puts you frequently in a situation where a large animal is a liability then go flesharker. In all the other cases bear is better. Also, I think that it is much easier to get into a city with a bear ('I trained it [perform command, handle animal] see? He can dance!) than with a toothy fleshraker DINOSAUR.
#24 aftercrescent Mar 24, 2008 14:48:46	Aftercrescent, to say that the fleshraker deals more damage you are assuming that it will hit. Considering that the bear will have an higher attack bonus, the EXPECTED damage (that is, the damage weighted for the to hit probability) of the fleshraker will be LOWER than the bear against decent AC opponents. As I said above, the fleshraker shines only against low AC, low STR opponents. That is, arcane casters (this includes your GOD example), the bear is better against ANYONE else. So the bottomline is: if you want your animal companion to be just an anti-arcane caster OR if your DM puts you frequently in a situation where a large animal is a liability then go flesharker. In all the other cases bear is better. Also, I think that it is much easier to get into a city with a bear ('I trained it [perform command, handle animal] see? He can dance!) than with a toothy fleshraker DINOSAUR. I wasn't going on attacks. I was referring to grapple bonuses, which is what's used to do damage in a grapple. Yes, it does assume the Fleshraker wins the grapple, true. It's more of a 'when a HUGE creature is a liability' issue. Animal growth puts the fleshraker large with the bear and a LOT better. Same BAB, down maybe one point of strength and a lot more attacks. Grapple is basically the same. Damage output rocks. Yes, the grapple will be better when the bear is animal growthed to huge size. But a medium or large fleshraker is a powerhouse.