My druid is of Killoren race (RotW), will be starting at level 1 and Gestalt. I was thinking monk (because it fit so naturally - lack of armor, wis to spells and monk abilities, etc...), but I wanted to pass it through you guys to see if you have had any experience with this or what you might recommend. I won't necessarily stay full Druid either, I kind of like the shape shifting abilities/classes(MoMF, War Shaper, Nat War).
The two other players in the group will be Cleric/Rogue gestalt and the other will be Sorc/Paladin gestalt, that's the current thoughts from them anyways. Lacking a real "tank," those duties will probably fall back to me. Seems like Druid/Barb would be a pretty fun combo, but there's just not as much synergy there as with the Druid/Monk.
What is the opinion of the board?
01 - Druid 1 // Ranger 1
02 - Druid 2 // Unarmed Swordsage 1
03 - Druid 3 // Unarmed Swordsage 2
04 - Druid 4 // Ranger 2
05 - Druid 5 // Fist of the Forest 1
06 - Druid 6 // Warshaper 1
07 - Druid 7 // Warshaper 2
08 - Druid 8 // Warshaper 3
09 - Druid 9 // Master of Many Forms 1
etc.
Something like this would be fun, thematic and quite powerful:
01 - Druid 1 // Ranger 1
02 - Druid 2 // Unarmed Swordsage 1
03 - Druid 3 // Unarmed Swordsage 2
04 - Druid 4 // Ranger 2
05 - Druid 5 // Fist of the Forest 1
06 - Druid 6 // Warshaper 1
07 - Druid 7 // Warshaper 2
08 - Druid 8 // Warshaper 3
09 - Druid 9 // Master of Many Forms 1
etc.
Where do I find the Unarmed Swordsage and Fist of the Forest materials at?
Maybe something along the lines of
Druid 20 (Nothing else needed)/ Scout 1/ Ranger 1/ Scout 3/ Barbarian (Lion Totem) 1/ Ranger 3/ (Overwhelming Attack) Monk 1/ Fist of the Forest 1/ Scout or Ranger 9
The build I'm going to outline is a supercaster build. You will have more spells the anyone else in the party. And then some.
Your two primary stats for this build are Wis and Cha. Your secondary stats are Int and Con.
Progression for the first ten levels is as follows.
Druid 1 / Ardent 1
Druid 2 / Ardent 2
Druid 3 / Sorcerer 1
Druid 4 / Sorcerer 2
Druid 5 / Sorcerer 3
Druid 6 / Sorcerer 4
Druid 7 / Warmage 1
Druid 8 / Warmage 2
Druid 9 / Warmage 3
Druid 10 / Warmage 4
The Ardent is a psionic class from Complete Psionic, it bases off of Wis. You /may/ need the wild talent feet to take it- it doesn't specify that you do. However, for this progression to work you're going to need the following.
1. High wis- as a druid gestalt this should be obvious
2. The feet 'Practiced Manifester' which raises your manifester level by 4. Due to the way an Ardent learns powers, this lets you bypass the whole 1-2-3-4-5 power progression that most classes have. Rather, you simply need to be able to manifest the power at the level you learn it. That's determined by your manifester level- which needs to match or be greater then the power's cost. And there are second level powers that cost 6 or less. The need for enough powerpoints is secondary- as a high wis caster you should be swimming in bonus points. When you take second level, and have the feat, pick a second level power. This qualifies you for 'ability to manifest second level power.
NOW COMES THE FUN PART.
From here on in you're not going to take anymore levels in druid. Or sorc. Or warmind. Or ardent.
We're going into prestige classes.
The first prestige class is the Arcane Hierophant. It has full wildshape, arcane, and divine (spell) progression, so you're only losing out on the ability to change your face and, what, poison immunity?
In addition, it dismisses your sorc familiar, and instead makes your animal companion your familiar. Gives it all the bonuses of being a familiar too.
The other prestige class we'll be using is the Cerebremancer. This class has full manifesting and (arcane) progression.
Levels will look like this.
Arcane Hierophant 1 / Cerebremancer 1
Arcane Hierophant 2 / Cerebremancer 2
Arcane Hierophant 3 / Cerebremancer 3
Arcane Hierophant 4 / Cerebremancer 4
Arcane Hierophant 5 / Cerebremancer 5
Arcane Hierophant 6 / Cerebremancer 6
Arcane Hierophant 7 / Cerebremancer 7
Arcane Hierophant 8 / Cerebremancer 8
Arcane Hierophant 9 / Cerebremancer 9
Arcane Hierophant 10 / Cerebremancer 10
Fairly straightforward, eh? Anyways, the only real issue here is that you're going to be a bit feat starved- your lvl 1 feat needs to be practiced manifester, for instance.
at 20th level, you will have the following.
Wildshape as a 20th level Druid
Cast as a 20th level Druid
Cast as a 14th level Sorceror
Cast as a 14th level Warmind
Manifest as 12th level Ardent
Have an Animal Companion that's also your familiar.
You'll probably have natural spell, and since psionics don't go away even when you change form, being a mental thing, you get to manifest irregardless of what form you're in.
Your combined Arcane and Divine spell's per day is as follows
18/ 17/ 17/ 17/ 17/ 17/ 14/ 10/ 4/ 4/
AAAAND you can manifest 13 different psionic powers (albiet from 3 mantles) of up to 9th level (which is as high as psi powers go)
You'll have 126 power points/ day, not counting any you get from having a high WIS- ie: having a wis of 18 gets you 40 extra points by the time you're 20th level.
Oh yeah. Mantles each grant a special ability that's usually 'always on' or 'activate on command'
Personally I reccomend either the 'good' or 'evil' mantles, depending on your alignment, as one of the power choices gives you the celestial template. And if you're currently a dire polar bear? celestial dire polar bear. Fun, fun stuff.
EDIT: A lot of high level psionic powers (level 9 usually) make your enemy's head explode. And that's awesome.
How would that combo work for WS with Druid on one side and MoMF on the other?
There are no rules that create the arbitrary system of sides in Gesalt. I'm definitely going to have to second the full Druid and Ranger/Swordsage/FotF/MoMF.
The build is perfectly legal - the thing to point out though, is that any level where you take a level in a class that increases wildshape, you do not exceed the wildshape given from Druid.
A druid 11 / Ranger 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Warshaper 3/Master of Many Forms 1/Deepwarden 2 still wildshapes as an 11'th level druid, not as a 15th. However, you have lots of amazing wildshaping abilities, Con to AC twice, Wis to AC. Comes out very powerful, and really only requires two stats, Wis and Con - dump everything else.
Kerrus, while not explicitly stated, in the Gestalt rules it outright tells the GM to ban classes such as Cerebremancer and Arcane Heirophant from being used in Gesalt, so its unlikely such a build could function.
A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.
Kerrus, while not explicitly stated, in the Gestalt rules it outright tells the GM to ban classes such as Cerebremancer and Arcane Heirophant from being used in Gesalt, so its unlikely such a build could function.
Not to mention that it forbids taking two prestige classes at once.
Due to the ability of practiced manifester and ardent you got 4 dump levels where you can take other classes to fill out your build. One of those levels is your first level of monk, the rest can be fist of forest, warshaper, master of many forms, etc.
Druid 1 / Ardent 1
Druid 2 / Ardent 2
Druid 3 / Sorcerer 1
Druid 4 / Sorcerer 2
Druid 5 / Sorcerer 3
Druid 6 / Sorcerer 4
Druid 7 / Warmage 1
Druid 8 / Warmage 2
Druid 9 / Warmage 3
Druid 10 / Warmage 4
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Druid 20 / Mystic Theurge
When did that change, or am I just remembering incorrectly?
Of the two, I personally consider warmind the superior class to Sorceror. It has the same spells-per-day progression as the sorceror, but rather then choosing spells known at each level he gets access to all spells from the warmage spell list for that level, and can pick and choose which ones to cast when he decides to cast.
The warmage is a non-PrC from Complete Arcane.
The warmage also gets some variant metamagic feats (sudden this, sudden that) as class features, and at 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 16th he gets to pick an evocation spell from the wizard list of a level that he can cast and add it to his list. It functions just like all his other spells (spontaneous casting whatnot)
All in all, I think it's a better class for the shooty mage- and given that a lot of people take sorc to be shooty, it's a fair tradeoff.
Now the one thing to remember about gestalting- aside from the PrC limitation, is that you're limited by the alignment restrictions of certain classes.
Druids are usually neutral. Neutral good, neutral neutral, lawful neutral, neutral evil, chaotic neutral.
Warmage has no alignment restrictions, so it's a good way to get arcane casting.
As for PrCs that advance spellcasting, I prefer Arcane Hierophant over Mystic Theurge because the hieropahnt advances wildshape AND spellcasting, which is the only reason you'd realistically be taking the later druid levels.
So maybe a build like this
Druid 1 / Monk 1 (Feat: Monastic Training: Ardent)
Druid 2 / Ardent 1
Druid 3 / Warmage 1 (Feat: Tashalatora: Ardent)
Druid 4 / Warmage 2
Druid 5 / Warmage 3
Druid 6 / Warmage 4
Druid 7 / Warmage 5
Druid 8 / Warmage 6
Druid 9 / Warmage 7
Druid 10 / Warmage 8
At this point we can start prestige classing. As I've been chastened- remember that we only get one prestige class at a time. If your GM allows it, that prestige class would best be Arcane Hierophant.
Arcane Hierophant 1 / Monk 2
Arcane Hierophant 2 / Ardent 2
Arcane Hierophant 3 / Ardent 3
Arcane Hierophant 4 / Ardent 4
Arcane Hierophant 5 / Ardent 5
Arcane Hierophant 6 / Ardent 6
Arcane Hierophant 7 / Ardent 7
Arcane Hierophant 8 / Ardent 8
Arcane Hierophant 9 / Ardent 9
Arcane Hierophant 10 / Ardent 10
Now this is an interesting build because it combines several different class features to a really decent value.
Let's look at what you have.
1. Casting spells as a 20th level Druid
2. Wildshape as a 20th level Druid
3. Casting spells as an 18th level Warmage
4. Manifesting as an 10th level Ardent (14th level with practiced Manifester)
5. Five psionic mantles (like Cleric Domains)
6. Flurrying as a 12th level monk (+9/+9/+9/+4), Improved Unarmed Strike, +2 to AC, Wis to AC, Improved Grapple (Tashalatora unfortunately doesn't stack psionic class with monk for stunning fist), Evasion, either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows- the latter is of less use IMHO.
7. Your animal companion functions as a familiar, including all bonuses therein.
8. Your int modifier gets added to any spell you cast that deals HP damage. This occurs once for each spell, but is pretty useful if you've got a good int. Still, remember that your key abilities are Wis/Cha.
9. Even though, as a druid, you probably won't need it (unless you decide to cheese and go the legendary ape route), as a warmage of eighth level you can wear medium armour without impeding your spellcasting ability. Now, I don't actually think this changes the whole druid+metal= bad thing that druids have going on, but it's possible to get around that via worshiping one of the dragonlance deities.
Not that you'll need to with your turning into a large earth elemental, making yourself two sizes larger, and generally mopping the floor with everything.
EDIT: I feel the need to iterate how awesome it is that you can cast warmage spells while transformed into an animal. Specifically... you can transform into a bear. And there's a warmage spell called Rainbow Beam. Do the math.
Where do I find the Unarmed Swordsage and Fist of the Forest materials at?
Unarmed Swordsage is from Tome of Battle. Towards the end of the entry for Swordsage they talk about an adaptation to the class where you lose armor proficiency, but gain the unarmed strike of the Monk.
Fist of the Forest is a PrC from Complete Champion. It is only 3 levels long, but really the best ability (CON to AC) comes at level 1.
As far as I know gestalting is just taking two classes at once. With the prohibition on two prestige classes at once you're going to want to optimize based on that
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Not that you'll need to with your turning into a large earth elemental, making yourself two sizes larger, and generally mopping the floor with everything.
EDIT: I feel the need to iterate how awesome it is that you can cast warmage spells while transformed into an animal. Specifically... you can transform into a bear. And there's a warmage spell called Rainbow Beam. Do the math.
Thanks a ton for the guidance and suggestions. That setup seems like an impressively crazy casting master
It doesn't do dips into other classes really (which I'm usually not a fan of).Also, I don't really get why that build uses Ardent. You don't have unlimited actions. Theres no need to add a third "casting" class into a build - you'll have more than enough things to do per action as it is. It would be better to add in classes that enhance your current abilities, instead of adding entirely new abilities in the first place.
Thats why the druid 20/Swordsage/Fist/Warshaper/Momf build is powerful - you aren't going to be able to use your actions for both spellcasting and whacking, you'll do one or the other. This makes your whacking side very powerful, without preventing your ability to spellcast if you wish it.
The most effective gestalt builds aren't those that try to do multiple things, its those that maximize one thing to all hell. Adding new abilities in doesn't significanctly increase your power, it increases your stamina, because theres still no way to get around the fact that you can only do so much in a single turn.
Now, that said, I suppose you could drop ardent, or switch ardent with another psychic class (for the tashalatora stacking)- FoZ has some nice choices, but they're very self oriented, that's why I picked Ardent- Ardent gets more powers too.
Now, of course, if your GM decides not to let AH go by- as (for the record, I've said that the build depends on AH being let be used ALREADY) << then the build is less interesting.
The druid 20/Swordsage/Fist/Warshaper/Momf build is powerful- I'll give you that. And to quote a good friend of mine "Casters run out of spells, but monks don't run out of fist."
But my build dares to break that mould. It'll run out of spells, sure. It'll just take a long, long time, and you'll be able to do the whole wildshape bonanza in the meantime. I mean, wildshaping as a twentieth level druid is phenomenal- if your campaign doesn't give you the chance for rest every night, the druid can stay wildshaped for 60 hours (with two two round intervals)
But, as said, it depends on the AH- without it versatility goes down.
A non AH build attempt is as follows. It's fairly straightforward and doesn't prestige.
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Druid 1 / Monk 1 Feat: Monastic Training - Ardent
Druid 2 / Monk 2
Druid 3 / Monk 3
Druid 4 / Monk 4
Druid 5 / Monk 5
Druid 6-20 / Ardent 1-15 Feat: Tashalatora - Ardent
Advantages:
1. Full Wildshape Progression
2. Full Monk AC, Flurry, Unarmed Damage progression
3. Full Druid Casting
4. Manifesting as a 15th level Ardent/ 6 Mantles
5. Full Animal Companion progression
6. Wis to AC, Still Mind, Evasion, Improved Grapple.
7. +10 ft enhancement bonus to your 'unarmoured' speed (which counts worn armour only :p)
8. Not really a feature, but if you take the Life mantle, your level 8 power from it is True Metabolism, which when manifested lasts for a round a manifester level (which will be 15-19, depending on a feat) and grants you a regeneration effect. Regain 10 HP a round, and regrow missing appendages if you concentrate on them. Very useful to activate when wading into combat.
EDIT: a route of additional cheese, of course, is to stop taking Druid at 10 and start taking Planar Sheppard.
EDIT2: Ardent, as I've said, is from Complete Psionic- but some of the available powers are only descriped in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Monastic Training is a feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting book, and really there's no real reason why it wouldn't exist on whatever Material Plane you're running on.
TASHALATORA
You have successfully integrated martial arts with psionic
power under the tutelage of Tashalatora masters.
Prerequisites: Autohypnosis 5 ranks, Concentra*
tion 5 ranks, Monastic Training (psionic class), ability
to manifest 1st-level powers.
Benefit: Your levels in the psionic class you selected
for Monastic Training stack with your monk levels to
determine your AC bonus, flurry of blows attacks, and
unarmed damage from the monk class.
^^ That's Tashalatora for reference.
Mantles I'm a fan of
Light and Darkness Mantel: Granted Ability - When you gain this mantle, choose whether you gain low-light vision or darkvision 60 ft. If you already have both you can double the range of your low-light vision, or add 30 ft to the range of your darkvision
Powers (You have to pick ones to learn when you gain a level, rather then knowing them all like a cleric and his domains)
1. Control Light: Adjust ambient light levels. /Augment: If you spend 6 additional PP, you can create the effect of a Daylight or Darkness spell
1. Elfsight: Gain low-light vision (this counts for the granted ability of having low-light vision for the purposes of making it better) , +2 bonus on search and spot, and notice secret doors.
1. My Light: (Lulzy) Your eyes emit a 20 ft cone of light (You can get it made permanent by another psionic character with the appropriate power too. Lulz)
2. Claws of Darkness: Gain Claw attacks and slow grappled targets
4. Light Beam: (My favourite) Deal 5d6 damage in a 120 ft line that emits from your fingertips (though for fluff it could emit from any part of your body if your GM's feeling amused.
5: Shadow Walk, Psionic: Step into shadow to travel rapidly
8: Light Burst: Blinds all within 10 ft, deals 6d6 damage. (Quintessential nova type power)
Life Mantle: Granted Ability - If you expect your psionic focus as a swift action as you manifest a power from this mantle, your manifester level for that power is considered 1 higher (increasing duration, some effects, and the amount of pp you can spend. Somewhat useful)
Powers:
1. Touch of Health: Channel positive energy to cure damage or damage undead.
2. From the Brink: Stabilize a dying target (useful for those pesty wizards who keep wading into melee without the appropriate buffs- and for those NPCs who just should know better but don't)
3. Body Purification: You heal 1d12 points of damage (Not that good. Skip)
4. Stygian Ward: Grant immunity to death spells and negative energy effects (absolutely required for high level campaigns)
5. Psionic Revivify: (Bet you didn't think that was a word) Return the dead to life before the psyche/soul leaves the corpse (awesome)
6. Mend Wounds: Cure non-undead of 55 damage, or deal 55 damage to undead (Good. Take it or don't, it's a nice power)
6. Restoration, Psionic: Restores level and ability drains (:p - I'm pretty sure you already get this as a spell. Not worth getting it again here)
8. True Metabolism: You regenerate 10 HP/Round.
Freedom Mantle: Granted Ability - While psionically focused, you gane a +10 ft bonus to your speed. You may expend your focus to add your manifester level to a roll made to resist being grappled, or to escape a grapple.
Powers:
1. Dimension Hop: Swiftly Teleport a short distance (yes please)
2. Hustle: Instantly gain a move action (Once per round? Invaluable)
4. Fly, Psionic: You fly at a speed of 60 ft (FLYING BEARS ATTAAAAAAACK!)
5. Freedom of Movement, Psionic: As per the spell
6. Evade Burst: You take no damage from a burst on a successful reflex save
8. Teleport, Psionic Greater: As Psionic Teleport, but with no range limite and no off-target arrival (Sure, it's not interplanar, but phenomenal for a "We need to be HERE now!" power)
Druid 20// Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 18 with Tashalatora
That being said, I'd have to agree with Psychic Warrior, the ability to use things like expansion when wildshaped is fuuuuuun.
The most effective gestalt builds aren't those that try to do multiple things, its those that maximize one thing to all hell. Adding new abilities in doesn't significanctly increase your power, it increases your stamina, because theres still no way to get around the fact that you can only do so much in a single turn.
A Planar Shepherd in a Dal Quor "Planar Bubble" gets a 10:1 round ratio as well as the ability to "fly." With that many actions, the extra stamina will be very useful. If you do this, remember to wear a helmet. You may need it. :P Fernia could be a cool plane too.
That being said, I'd have to agree with Psychic Warrior, the ability to use things like expansion when wildshaped is fuuuuuun.
Yes, that would be fun.