Race: Human
Books: Core ONLY
weapon: club? (it's free and I can use shillelah on it until i can wild shape)
classes: prestige classes are pretty much out
equipment in general: low magic campaign, most enchantment/magic item crafting feats are banned and magic items are not readily buyable and NPC magic item makers are generally not to be found.
armor: not sure, was going to buy leather barding for my animal companion first, then maybe try to get hide?
starting gold: 50gp (before any expenses)
stats: str: 14 dex: 16 wis: 16 con: 13 int: 10 cha: 5
(the plan is to take +1 con at level 4 to get it up to 14, retroactively bumping my hp and giving me a decent boost in the future and
from then on use my stat boosts for wisdom, so i'll always have enough wisdom to cast my spells. not planning on debuffing much if at all, so having a high DC isn't super important to me. I also realize the cha is low, and it knocks my handle animal skill down as well, but I figure I get +4 to handle animal checks with my animal companion, so that nullifies the penalty and leaves me with a +1, and i'll be keeping handle animal maxed anyway)
feats: 1: extend spell, human: quicken spell(am I taking this too early? I obviously can't use it for a while, not sure of a good alternative), 3: natural spell(this way I get it just before getting wild shape and it frees up my level one feats for other things)
skills: maxing concentration, handle animal and putting points into spot, listen. The druid handbook recommends spellcraft, but I don't understand why? I'll probably put at least one point in it so it's trained, but I don't understand why maxing it is important.
spells: 0: detect magic, cure minor wounds, light?. 1st: was thinking either magic fang(for animal companion and eventually me when i use wild shape) or shillelah, bonus spell would be probably produce flame? My thought is use magic fang, send in my animal companion to melee and blast with produce flame, or magic fang, send him in, then shillelah myself and go in to help in melee. but that's a fair amount of time spent buffing.. hmm.
anyway, feats from 6 on I have no idea. I'm pretty sure I'll stick with straight druid. I will NOT be a summoner, because my DM apparently thinks directing summoned animals is a move action and they don't have their own actions(which may be true? not sure). Although if there are rules(with page numbers) that I can show him to counter this belief I'd definitely consider it. Main idea is probably to go the melee fighter/wildshape fighter and caster type and use less summoning. However, I can always trade out prepped spells for summoning ones so.. eh.
Any thoughts?
Haven't made this char yet so let me know if any of this should be tweaked.
Race: Human
Books: Core ONLY
weapon: club? (it's free and I can use shillelah on it until i can wild shape)
classes: prestige classes are pretty much out
equipment in general: low magic campaign, most enchantment/magic item crafting feats are banned and magic items are not readily buyable and NPC magic item makers are generally not to be found.
Wow, you said your DM hated fighter-types in your other thread, but denying them their gear as well? This guy's just asking to have a full-caster brought to the table. The game itself is not balanced for low-magic except at the levels where the classes can't bring it to the table.
armor: not sure, was going to buy leather barding for my animal companion first, then maybe try to get hide?
starting gold: 50gp (before any expenses)
You absolutely need a spell component pouch first. Other than that, a first-level druid should be using a club or a quarterstaff, with a sling in reserve - they're free - and the rest of your gear should go into your armor or basic kit (backpack etc).
Remember that your animal companion is probably going to be a riding dog trained for war as per its monster entry. It's simply the best starting option for a druid. They have a starting AC of 16, which isn't half-bad; you should armor yourself up before trying to amp this too high.
stats: str: 14 dex: 16 wis: 16 con: 13 int: 10 cha: 5
(the plan is to take +1 con at level 4 to get it up to 14, retroactively bumping my hp and giving me a decent boost in the future and
from then on use my stat boosts for wisdom, so i'll always have enough wisdom to cast my spells. not planning on debuffing much if at all, so having a high DC isn't super important to me. I also realize the cha is low, and it knocks my handle animal skill down as well, but I figure I get +4 to handle animal checks with my animal companion, so that nullifies the penalty and leaves me with a +1, and i'll be keeping handle animal maxed anyway)
I've seen the method you use to generate scores (it's very weird). Your best option is 18 Wis, 18 Con, 10 Intelligence (if you're dumping everything else, this can be higher), and the rest whatever you feel like, but remember that it you do not benefit from Strength or Dexterity while in Wild Shape (they'll only be useful to you during levels 1-4, where Dexterity probably matters more than Strength) and you literally have no reason to have Charisma at all (even Handle Animal doesn't really matter - the highest DC you'll ever need to hit is 27 (to get your wounded companion to perform a trick it doesn't know), and even that's a fringe case due to the animal's bonus tricks). Boost Wisdom all the time.
The reason you want 18 Wis is not for the high DC, but rather for the extra spell slots. Also, what I wrote about buff clerics in the other thread? It's aimed at clerics. Druids get good buff spells, yes, but they also get amazing offensive spells (typically one level higher than the wizards do and often with some sort of natural-world limitation on them, but they DO get them - examples include Produce Flame and Flaming Sphere, which are killer at low levels, and Entangle, which is literally the best AoE support spell you could ever hope to cast). Thus, the DC actually does kind of matter. However, the real reason for 18 Wisdom is the high spell slots.
feats: 1: extend spell, human: quicken spell(am I taking this too early? I obviously can't use it for a while, not sure of a good alternative), 3: natural spell(this way I get it just before getting wild shape and it frees up my level one feats for other things)
You don't qualify for Natural Spell at level 3, and yes, you're getting quicken WAY too early.
The usual core-only human druid 20 loadout (you will never prestige class as a druid, pretty much ever) is:
1: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Hu: Augment Summoning
3: Extend Spell
6: Natural Spell
9: [This one's reasonably open; if your DM allows you to grab Improved Natural Attack or Multiattack, this is where to get it; other alternatives include Improved Grapple, Power Attack, or Combat Reflexes depending on the forms you're favoring. Another odd possibility is Flyby Attack, but this is more limiting than the others.]
12: Quicken Spell (if you didn't take it at 9; I think this is probably the better level for it)
15: [Again, open; consider more metamagic or item creation if you're doing fine in combat]
18: [Open]
The only "deadweight" feats you'll have are at level 1 (your summons last all of 1 round, not worth using) but you'll have oodles of spell slots to use on other things. There's so many open feats because the druid brings all it really needs to the table with nothing more than Natural Spell.
skills: maxing concentration, handle animal and putting points into spot, listen. The druid handbook recommends spellcraft, but I don't understand why? I'll probably put at least one point in it so it's trained, but I don't understand why maxing it is important.
Spellcraft lets you identify enemy spells and magical effects - you don't automatically know what the enemy is casting in D&D (if your DM says "He's casting Dominate Person" every time, he's giving you too much information). This is vitally important to identify targets, develop strategies, and even helps in magical trapscouting and magic item identification.
That said, you can go without it, provided you have a good way of speaking with your team. A druid only really needs Concentration (mostly because a surprising number of their spells are Concentration duration, and wild shape druids tend to cast up close anyway). You don't need that many ranks in Handle Animal (just enough to reliably hit DC 10 is usually more than enough unless you're training things, and you get a +4 bonus to handle your companion), so feel free to reallocate skills as your levels increase. Other skills to consider include Knowledge: Nature (it's better than you'd think), Survival (trust me, someone in the party needs this if your adventures include any overland travel or wilderness missions), and even Diplomacy (you don't need a high Charisma to make this work, really).
spells: 0: detect magic, cure minor wounds, light?. 1st: was thinking either magic fang(for animal companion and eventually me when i use wild shape) or shillelah, bonus spell would be probably produce flame? My thought is use magic fang, send in my animal companion to melee and blast with produce flame, or magic fang, send him in, then shillelah myself and go in to help in melee. but that's a fair amount of time spent buffing.. hmm.
At the lowest levels, you will find Entangle and Produce Flame to be more effective than Magic Fang, and Shilleleigh is exactly as useful as you'd think it is (i.e. if you have enough Strength to go into melee at all, it's worth it). However, the reason why I suggested Entangle, Obscuring Mist, and Produce Flame is because they're hard to counter at low levels (and the last one actually deals pretty respectable damage at both melee and range, and doubles as a torch).
If you have a lot of spell slots and the team doesn't have many other options for it, packing Cure Light Wounds would not be a bad idea at the lowest levels. Low level is kind of lethal before you get your gear together. Just don't use it in battle unless you need to save someone's life. (Seriously, you're going to want to read that.) At later levels you will buy wands of Cure Light Wounds (get the party to chip in; they're a team expense) and generally ignore healing spells short of heal, but at the lowest of the low levels, it's wise to have a lifeline.
Your spell loadout will change over time, and can change day to day if you need it to. always pick based on what you are, not what you think you can be in a few levels. (Produce Flame loses a lot of potency pretty quickly except as a "hold the charge" buff, but Barkskin and Magic Fang go up in utility as their durations get longer. Entangle never goes out of style (I usually fill any leftover slots with this after I've picked my essentials at higher levels), and Endure Elements is useful but slightly situational.)
anyway, feats from 6 on I have no idea. I'm pretty sure I'll stick with straight druid. I will NOT be a summoner, because my DM apparently thinks directing summoned animals is a move action and they don't have their own actions(which may be true? not sure).
He's partially correct. Directing a spell does take a move action, in general. However, the Summon Nature's Ally spells don't need direction - they summon a creature, and it's the creature that needs direction. The spell says:
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
This makes it pretty clear that the animals themselves have their own actions and act independently, but they only attack opponents to the best of their ability (remember they have low Intelligence, so they'll probably just attack the nearest or biggest threat) unless you have some means of communicating with them (i.e. Speak with Animals). If you do have such a means, you can direct them using those means to target specific creatures, etc. And if those means are speaking, remember that speaking is a free action.
An example of a spell you would direct as a move action is Flaming Sphere. But with SNA, you're casting a spell and all the spell does is keep the animal on this plane; the animal itself is the one doing the actions.
Although if there are rules(with page numbers) that I can show him to counter this belief I'd definitely consider it. Main idea is probably to go the melee fighter/wildshape fighter and caster type and use less summoning. However, I can always trade out prepped spells for summoning ones so.. eh.
Any thoughts?
Spend more time familiarizing yourself with the rules - druids are complex, even moreso than other full casters and especially once they get shape-changing abilities. Your instincts are generally right about fighting and spellcasting over summoning, but don't neglect summoning in a core game once you can get a good duration on them. (Remember that you can spontaneously cast the summon spells, so you can apply Extend Spell on the fly as well!).
One last tip: Do not overextend yourself. You're tough at level 1, but you cannot go CoDzilla until you get at least Natural Spell and enough caster levels to have decent durations on your buffs and/or summons. Play conservatively until you are super-confident in your abilities: the proper application of CoDzilla always comes after they get their super abilities (Divine Power in the cleric, Wild Shape in the druid), so if you're starting at level 1, it's best to bide your time. The point of CoDzilla is to be instructive, and for a lesson to be learned, the demonstration has to be dramatic. The ideal reaction you're aiming for isn't "That's a strong character" but rather "Woah, where the hell did that come from?!", and the proper response is "From the core rules only. They really are that good." You're not aiming to fight with the DM, but rather to simply illustrate that limiting the game to core is not going to balance the game, and that the restrictions need to be on the casters, not the fighters.
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I've seen the method you use to generate scores (it's very weird). Your best option is 18 Wis, 18 Con, 10 Intelligence (if you're dumping everything else, this can be higher), and the rest whatever you feel like but remember that it you do not benefit from Strength or Dexterity while in Wild Shape and you literally have no reason to have Charisma at all (even Handle Animal doesn't really matter - the highest DC you'll ever need to hit is 27 (to get your wounded companion to perform a trick it doesn't know), and even that's a fringe case due to the animal's bonus tricks). Boost Wisdom all the time.
The reason you want 18 Wis is not for the high DC, but rather for the extra spell slots. Also, what I wrote about buff clerics in the other thread? It's aimed at clerics. Druids get good buff spells, yes, but they also get amazing offensive spells (typically one level higher than the wizards do and often with some sort of natural-world limitation on them, but they DO get them - examples include Produce Flame and Flaming Sphere, which are killer at low levels, and Entangle, which is literally the best AoE support spell you could ever hope to cast). Thus, the DC actually does kind of matter. However, the real reason for 18 Wisdom is the high spell slots.
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I should have mentioned one thing about a house rule to polymorph/shapechange/wild shape that the DM made.. which is why I wanted decent base dex/str as well and didn't just pump con/wis. Here it is.
Only creatures in the Monsters Manual are available as forms for polymorph and related spells or abilities (i.e., alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object, shape change, wild shape, etc.). Creatures taken from other sources (such as supplements), or entirely original monsters, may be used in the game by the DM. Such creatures, however, are too rare for spellcasters and shapechangers to have learned their forms (or have other properties that prevent assumption of their forms). To gain the physical attributes (Strength, Dexterity and Constitution) of the new form, remove the racial ability modifiers of your normal form from your existing ability scores then apply the racial ability modifiers of the new form. For creatures that have "as Characters" information in their Monster Manual entry, use the racial ability provided there. For creatures without "as Characters" information, calculate the racial ability modifiers from the ability scores of the base creature in the Monster Manual by subtracting 10 from each even valued ability score and subtracting 11 from each odd valued ability score. For example, the base treant has Strength: 29, Dexterity: 8 and Constitution 21. Thus, a character polymorphing into a treant would modify his or her existing ability scores by Strength +18, Dexterity -2 and Constitution +10.
Basically, I get bonuses to my physical stats, they aren't replaced. Does that change your thoughts on the stats at all? Other than that I think what you're suggesting makes a lot of sense and hopefully will help drive the point home to him =p
EDIT NOTE: So using his rules, I could make my wild-shaped druid stronger than a treant, more con and more dex... so yeah, that was my thought process and that was just one example. With the stats I had it would be me = str 32, dex 14, con 24. normal treant: str: 29, dex 8, con 21. Not hugely better than a normal treant, but it is better.. lol.
If that's the case, your best array is probably 18 Wis, 18 Con, 14 Dex, 10 Str, 8 Int, 4 Cha. (Add 3 to the 15 by subtracting 4 from the 12, add 4 to the 14 by subtracting 6 from the 11, add 1 to the 13 by subtracting 1 from the 11 (for a net -7 to the 11).)
Hang back with Produce Flame (it's a touch attack; with 14 Dex you'll hardly ever miss) or your sling and a shield at the low levels; Wild Shape will provide enough Strength to make up for it this way since you'll basically have the same Strength score as whatever form you're in. Let your animal companion do your melee for you. With 8 Intelligence you'll have a hard time keeping all your skills up; Concentration is the only one you'll really need to max, though. (i.e. once you have enough Handle Animal and Survival to hit their common DCs, switch them out for other skills; with 18 Wisdom, Listen / Spot don't need that much early pumping, but will catch up to other specialists rather quickly once you start); I'd put the leftover points on scout skills or Knowledge depending on what role you serve (remember that your companion gets to make checks too, and typically has a bonus on Listen or Spot). Remember that as you go up in levels and can start summoning intelligent nature's allies, you'll need to speak with them, so spending points on Speak Language (Sylvan or any of the elemental languages) wouldn't be a bad call (you really don't need that many other skills).
EDIT: I'm going to wager your GM has never run a game with full spellcasters past level 7 or 8, and he likes low-power games. All of his decisions so far point to this conclusion. The Wild Shape change seemed to be the clincher: you're core-only restricted like everyone else, but he seems to think the problem with that is that you can dump Strength. He gave you a construction system that's uncommonly good for ability scores, though, and introduced a system that's actually *better* for characters with heroic abilities. The real power issue with polymorph effects isn't their ability score switching, it's their flexibility (and their complexity/slowness at the game table). And as RT noted, you won't need to reach outside core for the best forms - and so long as you have a 10 in each physical ability score, your final modifiers will always be better than the standard forms!
That's why I went with the array above. Druids do not need Charisma (having the equivalent of +8 to that score for the only use they really need it for, Handle Animal, certainly doesn't hurt), so it's sunk into the Abyss. Druids do need Wisdom and Constitution, so those get 18s. Druids get 4+Int skills and generally don't need that many skills, so 8 Intelligence is fine (it's as good as a 10 as far as skill points are concerned - thank you, human heritage). I went with 14 Dex to improve your Initiative, AC, and ranged touch abilities (all of which you'll be using as a low-level non-wildshaped druid) and left a 10 in Strength, figuring that if replacing your Strength overall is good enough in core, having an identical result in your system isn't bad either.
If you really want, you can switch Strength and Dexterity around, and wade into battle with your companion. It's a distinct possibility, but in general, I don't think you'll need it, and I think the boosted Dex will keep you alive through the lower levels just a bit easier.
equipment in general: low magic campaign, most enchantment/magic item crafting feats are banned and magic items are not readily buyable and NPC magic item makers are generally not to be found.
Like I said in the other thread, I'm not an advocate of breaking games, since they're supposed to be a cooperative experience, but... your DM hates fighters. Like, really, REALLY hates fighters. All they get is feats and equipment, and your DM just told you to GTFO with both...
Have you ever thought of DMing?
If you really want, you can switch Strength and Dexterity around, and wade into battle with your companion. It's a distinct possibility, but in general, I don't think you'll need it, and I think the boosted Dex will keep you alive through the lower levels just a bit easier.
Remember that your companion can help the rogue (assuming you guys aren't all casters) with flanking. Try not to take frustration with the DM out on your party. Also, Tempest's Entangle suggestion is a rogue-aid, as it denies opponents their Dex bonus to AC.
The DM isn't a horrible guy, he just is inexperienced/inflexible and I think that's a bad combo. Anyway, I posted elsewhere about the server in hopes some people would join and maybe someone will DM a new campaign on it, so we'll see how that goes. Until then, this is pretty sweet from what I can see.
Note that many of your combats should go long. Yeah, long combat in D&D is odd, but low magic campaigns means plenty of time you've got 'the five of us versus five bandits' and those things can drag out. Fortunately, that's where a core druid comes into his own. Also fortunately, core druids can extend combat like nobody else. For party tactics, make sure everyone picks up a longbow or crossbow. And try to have engagements in open settings - fields, forests, that sort of thing. What you don't want is "a 30'x30' room" because those sorts of killboxes are where TPKs happen.
That means proactively picking your fights, rather than reactively doing dungeon crawls.
Equipment: Grab a tower shield and caltrops. You'll want both for many situations. Before wild shape you don't want anything getting near you, and hiding behind a tower shield and a caltrop field makes you very happy.
Tower Shield - the +4 AC will be your best friend ever in low level D&D. Touch attacks are much easier to hit with than normal attacks, making the penalty negligible, and there's other fun tricks you can do with them.
Heavy Shield - At times you'll want to give up the tower shield bonuses for more accurate blasting. There's no need to go without your shield bonus though. Remember it takes 2 move actions to swap it out for the tower shield, so know which one you want before combat starts.
Caltrops - Before wild shape you do NOT want to be in close combat with anyone. Caltrops screw up those irritating charges, and generally make you very happy. They're cheap enough, and the faster you get 2-3 bags of them the better.
Tanglefoot bags - cheap enough that you can afford to spend your gold on them (especially if you're not getting magical items) and they synergize AWESOMELY with the sort of long-duration combats you're attempting to create.
Barding - A riding dog (best animal companion for level 1) with Barding has an ungodly high armor class. Get Breastplate Barding (any armor that you see in the table, remember). A Riding Dog at level 3 with Breastplate Barding has 4d8+4 hp, and an armor class of 24 at level 3. A fighter in full plate with a heavy shield has an AC of 21! That's absurd. Breastplate barding for the dog costs 400 GP
For spells:
1st Level:
Produce Fire: Great little spell, 1d6+1/lvl fire damage, this will quickly make you the most damaging thing in the party without magic weapons (since touch attacks quickly hit the point of never missing).
Longstrider: In a low magic campaign you're going to get less magical speed boosts. You'll love this baby.
Entangle: Your DM sounds like the type to favor small groups of bandits and other irritants. This will hold them in place. Then educate them. The rest of the party should be picking up range weapons, since their durability will be laughable without magical items, this should help.
2nd Level:
Flaming Sphere: Outside of Core you have better ways to blast, but 2d6 as a move action for 1 round/level will take you all the way up to wildshape. For the long, irritating encounters combining this with Entangle will allow you to virtually solo them.
The rest you should be able to figure out on your own.
General strategies: Try to use caltrops before the combat starts, and entangle or tanglefoot bags if you get a surprise round. Your dog can tank an absurd amount of damage (Most things will be hitting him on 15-17) but don't be afraid to keep him out of combat if you have the advantage. Use Produce Flame to blast away while the rest of your party fires arrows.
For animal companions, your barded riding dog's 24 AC is absurd. You're basically going to have a lot of trouble beating it, especially since you're getting the bonus AC and HD. However the damage starts to drop off severely at later levels. I'd avoid switching it out at 4th (24 AC... it's just too high).
At 7th even the adjustment up to 26 AC can't make up for the fact that you're doing 1d6+4 as a full attack, which is basically nothing at all. A lot of people say go for the dino for the pounce attack, but I have always favored the Rhino. 4d6+24 charges are absurd, and using Web/Entangle you can basically have your rhino hit something every single turn. Wildshape into a Rhino, and do the charge shuffle (You charge seperate targets, next round the rhino charges your target and you charge the rhino's target. Done correctly, they won't last long at all). If there's one target and you've got it immobilized, the rhino should charge, move back 30 ft, charge, move back 30 ft. That'll lower incoming damage, without reducing the total damage the rhino does any.
P.S. DRUID
Also, under normal rules, when using a wild shape you take on the physical ability scores of that which you transform into, except for constitution. So again, having a high con score is extremely benificial, especially if you like shifting into bears, hydras or other awesome creatures.
Hit points grant additional survivability; Higher con is higher hit points.
Also, under normal rules, when using a wild shape you take on the physical ability scores of that which you transform into, except for constitution. So again, having a high con score is extremely benificial, especially if you like shifting into bears, hydras or other awesome creatures.
Under normal rules, you gain the Constitution of your wild shape form, but retain the hit points of your original form despite any change to your Constitution.
I wouldn't go 18 con, but you do want it high. When wildshaped, you expect to go into melee and take some damage. Your HP won't change from wildshaping, but your dex and str will. Drop them as low as you want and they will still be better than the fighters. Wisdom is really the only stat you need, and so typically you dump the rest of your point buy there, get a 12 or 13 int, and call it a day.
18 wis, something like 16 con, 12 int, and then 4's for all you care.
Yep. The DM boosted Wild Shape and gave SAD characters a huge score boon, in a fame that punishes fighters. This GM deserves a CoDZilla.
Equipment wise is there really any magical item or anything along that vein I should be saving up for, on the offhand chance I can buy things later, or if I find certain items? Wild shape seems to null all magic items worn, so it almost seems like my need for equipment/loot is pretty nil?
In core, yes. Unless of course, you happen to find Rhino Hide or Dragonscale Armor.
Equipment wise is there really any magical item or anything along that vein I should be saving up for, on the offhand chance I can buy things later, or if I find certain items? Wild shape seems to null all magic items worn, so it almost seems like my need for equipment/loot is pretty nil?
Druids don't need much, especially since most of it's absorbed in Wild Shape (the Wilding enhancement generally bypasses that, but it's noncore). The cheeseball trick, though, is to get equipment but size it for a dire ape (or whatever animal form you use most frequently; the ape is considered ideal since it can use weapons). Then wildshape, then get dressed.
Druids generally need Wisdom boosters, but other than that they're pretty open. Especially in core; nothing much beyond wisdom boosters and general caster tools (like karma beads or incense of meditation or similar) is really appealing to a druid in core. Even the NPC druids aren't terribly well equipped in the DMG; they feel like they've got useless enhancements on their slings and scimitars and lots of deadweight toys. Realistically, you'll probably want dragonhide armor at some point, but even that's not all that essential.
I'm a fan of old-school items that the DM doesn't expect, though. Feather Token (Tree) is very appropriate. Think of any problem that can't be solved by a giant tree suddenly appearing where you want, and I'll say you're not thinking hard enough.
Okay, I know I may get flamed for even asking this, but how exactly will I be doing mega damage after wild shape? I looked at a lot of the wild shapes, not seeing a lot in the way of natural attacks. However, I have not yet looked beyond 2nd level druid spells, so maybe that's it? Anyway, just slightly concerned about that. I will say that I'm loving not needing to worry about equipment, or finding spells. In short, I like that druids are basically not really at all impeded by DMs, they pretty much have the features they have and don't need to worry about gear. It's nice.
Also, I'm not sure I understand how the attacks work while in wild shape form? I'm assuming I still only get my base number of attacks, even if my assumed form has a full attack with more attacks? Ex: at level 8 I could turn into a bear, but I only have 2 attacks if I full attack in human form. But a brown bear has a full attack of two claws and a bite. So.. would I be able to just do two attacks of whatever sort? Two bites, a claw and a bite, two claws... etc? Or...?
I also like the idea of him being able to change into inconspicuous animals once he gets more than 1 wild shape a day, like a cat or dog or rat or something.
Okay, I know I may get flamed for even asking this, but how exactly will I be doing mega damage after wild shape? I looked at a lot of the wild shapes, not seeing a lot in the way of natural attacks. However, I have not yet looked beyond 2nd level druid spells, so maybe that's it? Anyway, just slightly concerned about that. I will say that I'm loving not needing to worry about equipment, or finding spells. In short, I like that druids are basically not really at all impeded by DMs, they pretty much have the features they have and don't need to worry about gear. It's nice.
First, you get a lot of attacks, far earlier than fighters do. (A typical claw/claw/bite attack is available around level 8; fighters need to wait until 11th level to get that third attack).
Second, none of those forms have any buffs or gear active, and they often fight with animal intelligence, and they certainly can't cast spells via Natural Spell. And yet they still manage to be effective forms on their own due to their ridiculous Strength scores.
The core buffs to look for are
-(Greater) Magic Fang: Grants a +1 Atk/Dmg bonus (greater version scales with level) and bypasses DR/Magic
-Barkskin (+1-+5 AC; stacks with normal armor)
-Bull's Strength (+2 attack, +2/+3 damage, +2 grapple, and so on; the second damage number reflects if you're in a form with only one natural attack)
-Bear's Endurance (+2 HP/HD, +2 Fortitude)
-Animal Growth (ZOMG +3 attack, +4/+6 damage, +4 grapple, +2 hp/level, +6 Fortitude, +3 Reflex, +4 Will, -2 AC, -1 ranged attacks); this one can target your entire summoned entourage, so if you spend a round summoning 1d3 polar bears, they just got very mean.
They add up. And they add up alarmingly fast. And they're deceptively higher than even this - since most of these apply to all your natural attacks, and you get a lot of those even from low levels.
Oh, and did I mention that as long as you're alongside your animal companion, they benefit from any of these you cast on yourself? And if you spend the round casting the spell on yourself, your animal companion gets its turn attacking with the buff you just cast?
Finally, Wild Shape lasts an hour per level; if you have a game with a lot of low-magic items at best, but few (expensive) high-magic items, you can just buy a second suit of armor shaped for a bear (it's called barding, you're using it for your animal companion) and enhance it cheaply, then shapeshift before you enter the dungeon and strap on your set of bear-sized armor. Bonus points if you give yourself an overly-phoenetic Scandanavian name or do an Ian McKellan impression.
Also, I'm not sure I understand how the attacks work while in wild shape form? I'm assuming I still only get my base number of attacks, even if my assumed form has a full attack with more attacks? Ex: at level 8 I could turn into a bear, but I only have 2 attacks if I full attack in human form. But a brown bear has a full attack of two claws and a bite. So.. would I be able to just do two attacks of whatever sort? Two bites, a claw and a bite, two claws... etc? Or...?
Your base attack bonus and all of the attacks it provides usually only apply with manufactured weapons. Your natural weapons are extra.
Natural weapons are either PRIMARY (the first one listed, and the only one used on the single "Attack" entry; note that if your primary weapon is something like "2 Claws" you'll still only attack with one of them during a single attack, even though both are primary) or SECONDARY (everything else). Primary natural weapons get your full Strength modifier to damage; secondary natural weapons get half. (There is an exception: if you're only attacking with one primary natural weapon - i.e. even if you have 2 Claws, if you're only attacking with one, and not using any other attacks) you get +1.5xStrength instead.)
If you only attack with natural weapons, you attack once with all your primary natural weapons using your full base attack bonus, and once with each of your secondary weapons using your full base attack bonus -5. The Multiattack feat changes this so all the secondaries attack at -2.
If you attack with a weapon and natural attacks, you attack with your weapon as listed under your base attack bonus. You can, if you want, also make an attack with every one of your natural weapons as well (assuming the weapon isn't occupying them - i.e. if your claws are on your hands), but every one of those natural attacks will be secondary.
Does that help? Most of the time, you won't even bother with a weapon.
(As a side note: fighter-types attack with CUMULATIVE -5 penalties. Natural weapons only apply that penalty once. For instance, if you're a psychic warrior / totemist or similar crazy natural weapon build, you might easily attack with 2 claws, a bite, and 4 tentacles (just off the top of my head). That's 7 attacks - two of them are at your FULL base attack bonus and the remaining 5 will be at -5, which still stands a reasonable chance to hit (note: Although your base attack is lower than the fighter's, your wild shaped Strength almost certainly will be higher, so they tend to average out.) Compare to a fighter-type: you can get 7 attacks with a fighter-type, but they're made at -2/-2/-7/-7/-12/-12/-17. Realistically, the last several attacks will never hit on them.)
I also like the idea of him being able to change into inconspicuous animals once he gets more than 1 wild shape a day, like a cat or dog or cat or something.
Check the Wild Shape section of the druid handbook I linked. Infiltration or stealth forms are suggested.
1) You said if the animal form has only one natural attack, or if I am only using one, due to having just moved or something, the strength bonus is x1.5. This sounds like the damage done by wielding two handed, does that mean for those attacks power attack gives the 2 for 1 damage:strength trade off for those attacks?
2) Where are the page numbers for these rules in case I need to dispute this with my DM? I couldn't find this under the polymorph or wild shape descriptions.. =/
www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#... (DMG)
www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#ma... example of sword/bite interaction: note what happens to the natural weapon attack/damage mods.
creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.
Or..? The reason I ask is because it says additional attacks, it doesn't say that that is also the minimum number of attacks, and my DM is a real stickler, so.. =/ I just want to make sure I have my bases covered.
I linked the marilith as an example of weapon/natural weapon interaction with high base attack; a bear should be a good example of primary and secondary weapons.
1) You said if the animal form has only one natural attack, or if I am only using one, due to having just moved or something, the strength bonus is x1.5. This sounds like the damage done by wielding two handed, does that mean for those attacks power attack gives the 2 for 1 damage:strength trade off for those attacks?
Here's what the FAQ has to say about it:
Does a dragon with Power Attack add twice the number subtracted from attack rolls to damage rolls when making a tail slap?
No. While it shares some mathematical similarity to a two-handed weapon, the tail slap (or any other natural weapon that adds 1–1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls) doesn’t gain any other benefits applied to the use of a two-handed weapon.
I'm still concerned about not have specific page numbers/rules that show: polymorphed/wildshaped/etc creatures get their creature's full attack regardless of base attack. The bear example is convincing to me, I'm not sure it will be to the DM, and when I use it I want to WOW him, not have him realize I can do it 7 levels early.
The other is the action type to direct summoned creatures and if they have their own attacks. The spell description to me seems to indicate that the creature immediately attacks upon the spells completion(presumably the closest hostile foe), but from then on it only says you can direct them. In my mind, that means talking to them, and if I have speak with animals active, then talking is a free action so it would just be a free action to tell them who to and who not to attack? Of course, some summoned creatures from the summon nature's ally list are not explicitly animals, I'm just using that as an example.
I'm jsut a tad concerned my DM is going to say 'nope, you only get the number of attacks you get in unshifted form, and it's a move action to direct each summoned creature'. That renders summoning multiple animals fairly useless, and makes shifting into an animal with more than one or two(at least for a while) attacks also slightly nerfed.
So. 1) any specific rules/examples for those cases?
2) Let's go with worse case scenario and he nerfs summoning/wild shape as I've described above. I've already sunk my first two feats into spell focus: conjuration and augment summoning. Is this Druid recoverable, or should I make a new character? If new character, I guess I should consider going wizard? This DM tends to screw us on gear, that's the main reason I'm not sure of just going cleric instead. But if you guys think I could be a codzilla with a cleric with subpar gear and core only rules/spells/feats I'd be open to that as an idea as well.
Hey guys sorry it's been a few days. Went through my first session with the druid, kind of subpar but that's to be expected at level 1. I also got crappy rolls, but that's neither here nor there.
At low levels, it's almost entirely the roll that matters, so I'd chalk it up to that. A first-level druid's riding dog animal companion, especially if trained for war, equipped with even leather barding, and given the right tricks, is roughly on par with an average first-level fighter in terms of straight-up combat. Presumably given the same set of rolls, the fighter would have been similarly underwhelming, and he wouldn't have had your spells to back it up.
I'm still concerned about not have specific page numbers/rules that show: polymorphed/wildshaped/etc creatures get their creature's full attack regardless of base attack. The bear example is convincing to me, I'm not sure it will be to the DM, and when I use it I want to WOW him, not have him realize I can do it 7 levels early.
The bear is the best example. It's also explicitly mentioned here.
Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack.... Refer to the individual monster descriptions.
You don't get extra attacks from base attack - but you don't get fewer attacks either. You aren't even looking at your number of attacks from base attack: You're looking at the monster's description. And there, it says things like "2 Claws +15 and Bite +10", meaning you get 2 claw attacks and a bite attack.
The other is the action type to direct summoned creatures and if they have their own attacks. The spell description to me seems to indicate that the creature immediately attacks upon the spells completion(presumably the closest hostile foe), but from then on it only says you can direct them. In my mind, that means talking to them, and if I have speak with animals active, then talking is a free action so it would just be a free action to tell them who to and who not to attack? Of course, some summoned creatures from the summon nature's ally list are not explicitly animals, I'm just using that as an example.
You're right. Remember, though, that just because you can give them orders as a free action doesn't mean they ACT as a free action. Absent your orders, the summon will continue to fight your foes to the best of its ability (this means it can tell who, exactly, are your foes, perhaps as part of the magic that summoned it), but which foes it targets and what attacks it uses are up to its "best ability". And most of these monsters have animal intelligence. (One alternative to Speak with Animals is the Handle Animal skill. You won't get the +4 bonus from your companion (as they're not your animal companions), and you'll probably have to resort to the "Push" usage as most of the animals don't have specific tricks, and this takes a move action instead of a free action, but it is a fallback if your DM demands it. You will have to use this instead of "directing a spell", though.)
The spell says this: If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. This is in addition to the usual "direct a spell" rule that it inherits from being a spell (note: There's no spell to direct here, but if you think your DM will say there is, this argument should work). Therefore, as an effect of the spell, I can direct the creature to do those things provided you can communicate with it. Speak with Animals lets you communicate with it through talking. Talking is a free action. Therefore you can direct the creature to do those things as a free action as a function of the spell description rather than the "direct a spell" text. This doesn't mean the creature performs them as a free action - if I say "Sic that wizard!" to a summoned wolf (clearly indicating who the wizard is), the wolf still needs to spend its actions to attack the wizard.
2) Let's go with worse case scenario and he nerfs summoning/wild shape as I've described above. I've already sunk my first two feats into spell focus: conjuration and augment summoning. Is this Druid recoverable, or should I make a new character? If new character, I guess I should consider going wizard? This DM tends to screw us on gear, that's the main reason I'm not sure of just going cleric instead. But if you guys think I could be a codzilla with a cleric with subpar gear and core only rules/spells/feats I'd be open to that as an idea as well.
You're a druid.
Seriously, they need nothing beyond Natural Spell to reach full-scale CoDzilla: everything else they get "for free". That includes no equipment (although it certainly helps, it's generally too cumbersome to rely on in core-only games as a wild shaper). I wasn't joking when I said you could get a druid with one feat instead of the usual number and still be powerful. Since that feat doesn't show up until level 6, what you pick beforehand is just gravy.
Besides, in the absolute worst-case scenario, even if your DM requires you to spend a move action to direct a creature, that still leaves your standard action open. You hang back, sending in your companion and one really big summon (since your DM's ruling hinders you using SNA for the multiple summons). You direct the animal companion as a free action, direct the summon as a move, and call down lightning or make the earth quake as a standard action. If the summon falls or you decide to save the spell slot, you're no worse off than any other druid whose early feats really don't matter.
Be patient, young padawan. As long as you survive, you WILL make the point. It just happens. However, it just happens to do so at an exponential rate, which is naturally slower at the start.
Any thoughts on this?
[/rant]
Silencher, I think Extend is a good idea, unless you haven't taken Augment Summon yet.
Hey guys, just got up to level 3. I'm sort of debating taking extend spell if only because I was thinking about taking the suggested 'improved grapple' and that requires I have improved unarmed strike.
Any thoughts on this?
Improved Grapple does two things: It avoids the AoO if you attempt to start a grapple, and it gives you +4 on grapple checks.
If you're in a wild shape that should be grappling, you have the much better Improved Grab ability (which triggers a grapple every time you successfully hit with the attached natural weapon - basically you're pinning them with your claws, snaring them with your tentacles, or holding them with your bite). Improved Grab makes the first benefit meaningless since there's no AoOs attached to either the attack or the grapple. Also, every one of the Improved Grab forms is very big, has a high Strength score, or (most frequently) both (and a few even grant Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, but I don't think any of these are in core), which makes the +4 less important. The only time it would be worthwhile is if you're trying to pin someone while still fighting, but the severe penalty on that check basically means "don't try this".
Let's look at what this means for you. At level 5, when you first get Wild Shape, there aren't that many in core (the best I know of is the Str-19 Medium Improved Grabber crocodile, but that's most effective underwater or as a summon.). At level 8, when you get Large wild shapes, you've got the 27-Strength-and-Large Improved Grabber of the brown bear or the polar bear, or the 25-Strenght-and-Large Improved Grabber / POUNCER dire lion; at level 9, you get Animal Growth, which gives you an even bigger size bonus on that grapple check. By the time you hit level 12, the dire bear is available. These forms tend to have grapple checks so high that it doesn't particularly matter if you've got the +4 or not, unless you're trying to wrestle very big targets - targets that you'd probably have better luck using other tactics against anyway. (Since grapple checks look for Strength and base attack, and are foiled by Escape Artist, but force Concentration checks, you usually want to use grapple against spellcasters anyway.) [As a side note, I don't know if you took 10 or 11 Strength; if you took 11, the odd-numbered Strength on these forms will work in your favor.]
If you're not in a form that has Improved Grab, you shouldn't be grappling.
Putting these together, I would not suggest doing this, as Improved Grapple is not worth the two-feat cost in this game.
(There is a rare school of thought on the druid that dips Monk for one level (or, even more rarely two), which gives Improved Grapple for free and, most importantly, Wisdom to AC, even when wild shaped. You're forced to be Lawful Neutral, though, and it slows down your spellcasting something fierce. Since you can get Wisdom-to-AC from a core item, and you can wear that while Wild Shaped, the monk dip is generally frowned upon, though.)
Meanwhile, take a good long look at your spells. Specifically, note how many are buffs with a duration measured in minutes or rounds. While Extend Spell won't be all that impressive now, there's many a good buff that will benefit from Extending. Again, like most things CoDzilla, it grows geometrically, and will be more useful as you go up in levels. Most of the good first-level druid spells already last a minute per level, so the duration's getting better on their own, but they're still extendable, particularly Magic Fang, Speak with Animals, and the ever-useful Produce Flame. In fact, since the number of fireballs you can throw with Produce Flame is keyed to the spell's duration instead of your caster level (the only instance of this I know of in core), Extend Spell amounts to doubling the number of attacks you get with what is probably your primary offensive spell. (This puts it more or less on par with Flame Blade (1d8+1, average 5.5, with a melee touch attack, vs 1d6+3, average 6.5, with a melee or ranged touch attack), the other key offensive spell at this level. Flaming Sphere is better, but you'll need a few more CLs to make it useful. Summon Swarm is practically cheating, it's so strong, but there's times when you'll want a bit more precision than that.) Note that you can cast Extended Produce Flame on your animal companion via Share Spells; if he gets multiple attacks, that can be a pretty sick damage boost. A cheap side effect of using your second level slot on an extended Produce Flame is that this frees up a first-level slot if you want; that gives you room for another Entangle, Speak with Animals, or Cure Light Wounds (which will rapidly be less critical, but it can still be a lifesaver at this level.)
(I know I keep singing the praises of Produce Flame; realistically it loses its utility slightly after level 5 or so except as a Wild Shape boost. But until then, burn baby burn.)
If the Summon Nature's Ally 1 list wasn't so bad relative to Summon Nature's Ally 2, that would be a great example as well: it would be able to last six rounds now instead of three, and that's long enough to cover the majority of the battles you face. However, I think three rounds of crocodile (lots of damage, good grapple) or hippogriff (decent grapple, can fly - note that it can grab someone and then fly up for a couple rounds before disappearing, which removes the target from the fight for a while and gives him some falling damage) is better than six rounds of wolf. But the general idea still works, and since you spontaneously cast them this doesn't carry any extra opportunity cost.
Oh, and Extend Spell only gets more useful, powerful, and versatile as levels increase and your spell options and animal companion's strength grow. Improved Grab only remains useful while you're in a form that grapples.
If you're going for a melee-in-Wildshape focus, there's an argument that having a higher BAB, non-item-based bonuses and unarmed strikes which I think could technically be used even in animal form is more important than a higher caster level. Remember that without Wildling Clasps (Savage Species?), "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional" when you wildshape, so Monk's Belts etc aren't so useful.
I'm not saying you *should* dip monk (you do have to be lawful to do so anyway), but there are some clear advantages to it.
==Aelryinth
You're right though, if you *were* to dip Monk, one single level is probably wiser, since you don't want to lose any more caster levels.
Hey all. So ive got my druid up to level seven and hes good. Primarily a summoner and blaster. I need to make him more effective in wild shape melee. Im trying to get wild added to my armor n shield but until then my ac seems really low. Suggestions?
Wild is EXPENSIVE - +3, so you get it as a +4 armor at best so I don't think you'd be able to add it until around levels... 13 or 14 or so (and at that point you can also afford the Monk's Belt, which is probably going to be a better benefit since you can shapeshift and THEN put it on.). Your DM was a real stickler for core-only and weak magic items, which was the major reason for busting out the druid in the first place, since they aren't equipment-dependent and work fine in core.
Thus, you shouldn't be focusing on equipment at all except to defend yourself in human form (since it's all absorbed when you polymorph) - or you can "cheat" a bit by dropping your rings or protection, amulets of natural armor, bracers of armor (better for you, I think) and so on, wild shaping, and then putting them on your combat form. (Wild Shape lasts for hours and you can do it several times per day.) Also look into your long-duration buffs - you can Extend Barkskin at the moment to improve your best combat form's natural AC by 3 for over two hours costing only a mere 3rd level spell slot. (Your current best forms are problably the deinonychus, leopard or crocodile.)
The real power of Wild Shape is next level (brown bear, giant crocodile, dire lion, rhinocerous), so you don't need to worry too much about long-term solutions like Wild on your armor - you just need to be conservative and bide your time until everyone realizes "Wait, where the hell did that come from?". That's the power of CoDzilla.
Oh, and be advised that blasting is going to get less effective with time as monster HP scales faster than blast damage does. Fortunately you're a druid and can just change those slots out the following day for other elements, such as buffs. You're almost high enough level for Animal Growth, and you're certainly high enough level for Barkskin (which helps with that AC problem quite well). You even have Natural Spell - if you didn't take this, something went wrong.
I really havent used wild shape much honestly and my dm finally added an npc who does enchantments so i have leather armor +4 and a large wooden shield + 2.
At level SEVEN?
A +4 suit of leather armor will ring you 16000 or so, and a +2 shield is 4000gp. Considering how a level 7 character should have at most 19000gp in equipment, you're already overequipped with just those two things alone. Similarly, due to the way things cost, you overspent - it's far cheaper to assemble the full set of basic defensive gear than it is to enhance single things.
For instance, if you had bought +2 leather armor (4000), a +2 shield (4000), a +1 ring of protection (2000), and a +1 natural armor amulet (2000), your final AC would be the same and your touch AC would be 1 higher, but the total cost would have only been 12k instead of 20k. The remaining 6k could go into wands, items that improve your saving throws, items that improve your ability scores (honestly I would have gone for +Wisdom or +Constitution before improving AC), or miscellaneous support equipment.
When i can get off summons they just murder everything but last session a barb who is 2 lvls weaker han me almost pked me and i dunno its made me concerned about how to be effective when summons are risky or impossible.
Where was your animal companion? Where were your allies? Why are you spending a full-round action to summon when you're in a position that enemies can fight back?
You're not a fighter. You should be far, far away from the fight unless you're wild shaped. Melee can do a lot of damage at this level - especially pouncing barbarians - and you have a d8 HD.
Im sad to admit my char only has a mw club for weaponry because i rely so heavy on summons n to a much lesser extent call lightning.
Nothing to be sad about: DRUIDS ARE NOT FIGHTERS. You'd be hard-pressed to find any high-level druid who actually uses a weapon.
Im considering forgoing wild shape altogether as my dm is very bitchy about loopholes like the ring ex u gave above.
The only reason I mentioned it was because you seem dead-set on getting your AC up there and playing a druid like he's a fighter. Didn't I warn you when we started that the druid was a spellcaster and should be played as such until around level 8? You're level 7. Patience, patience - hang back, cast spells (you've seen how effective this is!), and then once 8 hits, don't be afraid to wild shape, buff up, and join the fray. No loopholes, no nothing - just raw concentrated CoDzilla to help drive the point home.
Im also limited to non aquatic and non exotic animals so i have no dinos or even croc as a wild shape option.
You DID notice that half the animals I mentioned fit your critiera, right?
So yeah. How can i be better as a humanoid druid but still be effecive when summons are out?
STAY OUT OF MELEE.
Honestly, that's it. Without Wild Shape, you don't stand a chance in melee. Hang back, summon something tough, then cast spells like Call Lightning, Flaming Sphere, Entangle, Ice Storm, and so on when you haven't summoned things. Let your team - and your animal companion - take care of melee for you. (That's what Greater Magic Fang is for. At the moment you should probably have a brown bear as your companion.)
Finally, your buffs are starting to be really good now. As damage becomes less effective, buffs become more effective. Next level in particular, look at how your stats look when you're a bear with a few buff spells active.
The situation with the magic items is that there's an NPC who can enchant weapons/armors but for some reason is unable to make wondrous items, wands, scrolls, anything. So that's why I pumped my shield/armor. I actually do have a +1 ring of protect and +2 periapt of wisdom from loot, but yeah that's all. Fortunately the DM is fairly generous with gp, in fact I'd say pretty generous, I just can't spend it on anything but pumping weapons(which I currently don't use, I'm not a fighter, as you said and I totally agree with) and my shield/armor.
also, he doesn't allow crafting feats, I may or may not have mentioned that in this post or my other one from way back, but yeah, our magic supply is pretty limited, we were all kind of thrilled when we discovered this half-assed enchanter NPC. Lol...
Moving on, I really, really don't -want- to be melee, I like and always sit back and just pummel enemies in combat with summons and/or the occasional call lightning if I don't want my group to grumble about my bears destroying everything. Up until last session my char had never been touched once in combat. But then one of my PC companions went kill happy over the +1 ring of protection because he felt I was cheating the group out of 100 gold (we usually split loot by 'paying' the rest of the group 50-60% of the PHB price for magic items, I went low and offered 50%). So it's less a desire to be in melee, more a desire to be prepared if I get stuck in a similar crappy situation again where I'm forced into it.
Unfortunately, even though my char wasn't killed, the PC still wants to kill my char. I am fairly sure I can beat him and he just got lucky (he rolled 2 20's in a row, then a natural 18 which was the one that took me down. Fortunately, only the first auto-hit he rolled critted or I probably would have died (he has a waraxe, so 3x damge). After the 1st round of combat, which he critted on me, I was down to about 30% my max hp and this was -after- we had been in a hard fight so my spells were limited.
As for the rest of my group it was late, there were only 2 others left, one of which is a level 2 char who would have been murdered, the other was trying to help me but my character was just getting creamed by the barb's really, really lucky rolls. My problem is that with my current eq and dex my char's ac in human form is 24 (10+3[dex]+6[leather armor+4], +4[large wooden shield+2] +1[ring of protect]) and the highest AC in wild shape at the moment is 19, which is IIRC dire badger and boar (my DM house ruled polymorph, shapeshift, wild shape take -10 from even phys stats, -11 for odd phys stats and you add the left over, so a 16 str, 13 dex, 14 con animal would give me a boost of +6 str, +2 dex, +4 con rather than assuming the normal stats for any given animal.) so that's like 5 less than my human form, the only advantage seems to be movement(wolf/cheetah having 50ft, various animals having 40ft) and flight(eagle form), unfortunately eagle form wasn't an option since I was attacked in a single story house and my DM said the ceiling was too low for flight to really be advantageous for me to rain down call lightning. So at the time it seemed like my options were 5ft step and call lightning, or 5ft step and pray either his attack missed or my concentration check overcame the damage as I tried summoning. Unfortunately, that.. did not happen. What sucks is he only had a +12 to hit, so the odds were on my side, but.. yeah, the gods of dice rolling must have hated me or something. And again, I didn't have time to even attempt some tricky stuff like taking the ring off and then putting it back on later or something.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is 95% of the time I do exactly what you said and I love it, I stay back and out of the way, my party/animal companion mostly tanks so they hold back the enemies while I summon, then we rip them to shreds, but unfortunately this time it was just me and a PC and my riding dog animal companion(who I am refusing to give up due to RP purposes unless it gets killed, even though I know optimally I should probably switch it out for a black or even brown bear or something). The dog did manage to get in a couple bites but it wasn't enough to slow down a barbarian with a natural +4 con bonus. I guess I'm just trying to be prepared for the possibility that this will happen again and next time it won't stop at a knock out and I want to be able to rip this barb a new one.
It sounds like the best thing I can do at this point to raise my AC is barkskin, +3, which would put me up to 27 ac which isn't shabby at all, he'd need 15+ to hit me. I guess, sad to say, I need to start saving some of my spells in case my teammates go crazy -_-
Anyway, with the information above, especially about how much more superior my ac is currently in human form, do you still think at level 8(assuming I make it to then) wild shape is still an option, or should I be doing other tactics if I suddenly find my druid stuck in melee like this kind of situation(be it another attempted PK or simply an NPC who gets the jump on me)?
The situation with the magic items is that there's an NPC who can enchant weapons/armors but for some reason is unable to make wondrous items, wands, scrolls, anything. So that's why I pumped my shield/armor. I actually do have a +1 ring of protect and +2 periapt of wisdom from loot, but yeah that's all. Fortunately the DM is fairly generous with gp, in fact I'd say pretty generous, I just can't spend it on anything but pumping weapons(which I currently don't use, I'm not a fighter, as you said and I totally agree with) and my shield/armor.
also, he doesn't allow crafting feats, I may or may not have mentioned that in this post or my other one from way back, but yeah, our magic supply is pretty limited, we were all kind of thrilled when we discovered this half-assed enchanter NPC. Lol...
I want to stay out of this because I normally don't do optimized spellcasters but the line "equipment in general: low magic campaign, most enchantment/magic item crafting feats are banned and magic items are not readily buyable and NPC magic item makers are generally not to be found," from the original post really got my attention. "Low magic" runs very contrary to "generous with gp" because just what are you going to use all that gp for if you can't get magic items. If you can get magic items then there goes the often poorly thought out concept of "low magic" in a campaign.
As for having someone who can enchant weapons and armor but not the other stuff the reason for that should be VERY obvious. That character has the Craft Arms/Armor feat but none of the other magic item creation feats. Now I have no idea what the DM is providing with that NPC by I hope you realize that it takes a 12th-level character to make +4 weapons or armor; you may get an armor that valuable but the straight bonus require CL = bonus x3 unless I'm remembering incorrectly. I don't know what you mean by "pumping up" weapons because while you can improve an items bonus the net cost will be the same as if you purchased it at that bonus; going from +2 armor to +3 cost an additional 5000 gp and NOT just 1000 gp it costs to get +1 armor.
On the other front it sounds like your gaming group has some pretty serious problems with PC interaction. It may just be me but any time infighting becomes part of the game the "game" usually goes to pieces pretty quickly unless it is planned that way. It sounds like you may have been doing treasure distribution "fairly" after which things got out of hand. I'll also say that I'm not a fan of having a huge level difference between various party member because a level 2 character should have a much harder time contributing when stuck in a party with 7th-level characters.
Hey sorry, I don't think I was being clear because I was in a hurry and was typing on my iphone during my work break.
No worries; I was writing while hungry, and I get irritable with low blood sugar. It seems like that showed up in my writing: for this, I apologize.
Anyway, I see there's a lot of problems here, but I'll take it point by point.
The situation with the magic items is that there's an NPC who can enchant weapons/armors but for some reason is unable to make wondrous items, wands, scrolls, anything. So that's why I pumped my shield/armor. I actually do have a +1 ring of protect and +2 periapt of wisdom from loot, but yeah that's all. Fortunately the DM is fairly generous with gp, in fact I'd say pretty generous, I just can't spend it on anything but pumping weapons(which I currently don't use, I'm not a fighter, as you said and I totally agree with) and my shield/armor.
also, he doesn't allow crafting feats, I may or may not have mentioned that in this post or my other one from way back, but yeah, our magic supply is pretty limited, we were all kind of thrilled when we discovered this half-assed enchanter NPC. Lol...
As StevenO points out, he's being very weird with your wealth: gold is there pretty much only as magic item budgets, and he's denied you all of that except weapons and armor. And even there, he's ignoring prerequisites - to increase an enhancement bonus, you need a caster level of three times the bonus.
That said, you're definitely overequipped as well - you have more gear than you should have in your armor and shield alone, and you've got a ring of protection and a periapt of wisdom on top of that. I wouldn't worry too much about your AC - I'll get to that in a minute, but for now, it's enough to say that your problem isn't AC - since your gear puts it above what it should be for this level.
For example, your AC is 24 without any buffs. The NPC druid kitted out in the DMG has an AC of 18, which is fine for a 7th level druid (it'll be higher if he expects to fight due to buff spells and Wild Shape - and while your equipment is absorbed during Wild Shape, your buff spells are not).
Moving on, I really, really don't -want- to be melee, I like and always sit back and just pummel enemies in combat with summons and/or the occasional call lightning if I don't want my group to grumble about my bears destroying everything. Up until last session my char had never been touched once in combat. But then one of my PC companions went kill happy over the +1 ring of protection because he felt I was cheating the group out of 100 gold (we usually split loot by 'paying' the rest of the group 50-60% of the PHB price for magic items, I went low and offered 50%). So it's less a desire to be in melee, more a desire to be prepared if I get stuck in a similar crappy situation again where I'm forced into it.
Unfortunately, even though my char wasn't killed, the PC still wants to kill my char. I am fairly sure I can beat him and he just got lucky (he rolled 2 20's in a row, then a natural 18 which was the one that took me down. Fortunately, only the first auto-hit he rolled critted or I probably would have died (he has a waraxe, so 3x damge). After the 1st round of combat, which he critted on me, I was down to about 30% my max hp and this was -after- we had been in a hard fight so my spells were limited.
Your problem isn't your combat prowess. It's that you have an idiot for a teammate - and I'm not talking about the barbarian.
Sorry to mince words, but no mere treasure is worth picking a fight with a friend at the game table, whether you're using in-character or out-of-character reasoning.
I'd slap the guy in the face for this (literally or metaphorically is up to you, but I would NOT do this in-game), and then give him the ring, free of charge. You're rolling in cash anyway with no place to spend it due to the bizarro-world way your DM is handling wealth, and druids do not need gear anywhere near as much as other classes, particularly melee. Be a better human being than your teammate - recognize that you're on the same team, and keeping each other alive helps keep you alive.
As for the rest of my group it was late, there were only 2 others left, one of which is a level 2 char who would have been murdered, the other was trying to help me but my character was just getting creamed by the barb's really, really lucky rolls. My problem is that with my current eq and dex my char's ac in human form is 24 (10+3[dex]+6[leather armor+4], +4[large wooden shield+2] +1[ring of protect]) and the highest AC in wild shape at the moment is 19, which is IIRC dire badger and boar (my DM house ruled polymorph, shapeshift, wild shape take -10 from even phys stats, -11 for odd phys stats and you add the left over, so a 16 str, 13 dex, 14 con animal would give me a boost of +6 str, +2 dex, +4 con rather than assuming the normal stats for any given animal.) so that's like 5 less than my human form, the only advantage seems to be movement(wolf/cheetah having 50ft, various animals having 40ft) and flight(eagle form), unfortunately eagle form wasn't an option since I was attacked in a single story house and my DM said the ceiling was too low for flight to really be advantageous for me to rain down call lightning. So at the time it seemed like my options were 5ft step and call lightning, or 5ft step and pray either his attack missed or my concentration check overcame the damage as I tried summoning. Unfortunately, that.. did not happen. What sucks is he only had a +12 to hit, so the odds were on my side, but.. yeah, the gods of dice rolling must have hated me or something. And again, I didn't have time to even attempt some tricky stuff like taking the ring off and then putting it back on later or something.
Having already established the root problem here is an immature teammate, let me see what we can do about those tactics.
Personally, I'd suggest you stop thinking in terms of damage, and your performance will skyrocket. Even Call Lightning only does 10.5 damage on average - your barbarian undoubtedly had more HP than that left, even after a long fight (7th level average, with the 18 Constitution you later say he had, is 86), and unless the damage actually knocks him out, it won't stop him!
In that situation, I would have used Concentration to cast defensively (7th level character with 16 Con - assuming you went with your original ability scores instead of the ones I suggested back on page 1 - would have a Concentration modifier of +13, or a 90% chance of casting the spell without provoking) and cast an Obscuring Mist or a related fog spell, then moved back far enough to break line of sight, then use the rest of the movement to go off in a random direction. And the only reason I'm using Obscuring Mist here is because you said you were indoors, where Entangle - an amazing spell you can never get enough of - wouldn't work.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is 95% of the time I do exactly what you said and I love it, I stay back and out of the way, my party/animal companion mostly tanks so they hold back the enemies while I summon, then we rip them to shreds, but unfortunately this time it was just me and a PC and my riding dog animal companion(who I am refusing to give up due to RP purposes unless it gets killed, even though I know optimally I should probably switch it out for a black or even brown bear or something). The dog did manage to get in a couple bites but it wasn't enough to slow down a barbarian with a natural +4 con bonus. I guess I'm just trying to be prepared for the possibility that this will happen again and next time it won't stop at a knock out and I want to be able to rip this barb a new one.
No, your best preparation is to talk to this other player and tell him to stop being an asshat. If he declares he's attacking you again, you declare that you're leaving the table. Player-on-player combat is not conductive to a healthy game, and you should be motivated by overcoming the challenges the DM sets before you, not curbstomping the guy who's supposed to be standing between you and an untimely demise.
That said, if you want to overcome a foe like that, you should hinder their mobility (see Entangle? It rocks for a reason.). For your companion, if you're deadset on not getting a bear - why, I don't know, since the CR 7+ challenges are honestly too tough for a dog to face, so you'd be doing it a favor by setting it free - you should remember the dog's big advantage isn't its bite damage, but rather its trip attack. (You did train it for war, right? Each bite automatically tries to trip the target.) The issue with the dog is that it doesn't have the Strength or size modifier to do it reliably (though I remind you, you can cast Bull's Strength on it, and eventually Animal Growth), which aren't issues with the bear. (Bears don't trip so much as Improved Grab, but the idea is the same.)
If you can survive until level 8, you can do the same as a bear or tiger yourself. Pounce on your target and rake it to death.
It sounds like the best thing I can do at this point to raise my AC is barkskin, +3, which would put me up to 27 ac which isn't shabby at all, he'd need 15+ to hit me. I guess, sad to say, I need to start saving some of my spells in case my teammates go crazy -_-
No, you need to tell your teammates to grow up. No amount of resource management can compensate for having immature players at the table.
That said, remember to Extend most of your buffs if you can manage.
Anyway, with the information above, especially about how much more superior my ac is currently in human form, do you still think at level 8(assuming I make it to then) wild shape is still an option, or should I be doing other tactics if I suddenly find my druid stuck in melee like this kind of situation(be it another attempted PK or simply an NPC who gets the jump on me)?
Wild Shape is always an option, especially at level 8+.
For other options, please review the druid's handbook and the quickstart druid guide, paying attention to core-only options.
Due to this 90-95% of the time while we're on the 'client' we're basically in character only, so I can't really punch the player in the face even though sometimes I'd like to. I personally like it like that as it makes the whole thing more of a gaming experiencec and less of us just hack and slashing our way through dungeon after dungeon, but yeah. The character in question is kind of an idiot, hair-trigger temper dwarf barbarian, so that's why he went nuts, although I still think both in game and out of game he went crazy over something really, really minor.
Anyway, because of this I kind of feel like being 'immature' back and killing his char, because.. I dunno, it just wasn't cool for him to attempt to PK me with such little justification, either out of game or in game, especally since my char has saved the group a bunch of times with his summons. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm less pissed at the player and more at the character if that makes sense, and also that out of game none of us have any real ties, except the DM's sister and brother do play with us sometimes.
Anyway, I did some thinking and decided you're right about the animal companion thing and found an in game, RP reason to give up the dog, basically we're fighting dragons and crap like that now so she really doesn't belong there. I ended up getting a brown bear companion instead. Oh, and no, I never did train her for war, I actually.. embarassingly, didn't know that was possible. I did see it under the MM entry, but never saw it under handle animal and I kind of forgot about it until you just made your post -_- so.. yeah, I'm an asshat on that front[though I'd like not to be, so if you can explain how training for war works I'd love to know].
You're right about level 8+, I wasn't thinking about how ridiculously awesome being a brown bear could/would be. It does have kind of low ac, but since I keep my physical stat bonuses(again because of my DM's odd polymorph system, which I personally actually like, but that's just me maybe) I would have a natural ac of 18 (large brown bear is normally 15, +3 from my dex) and then I could add barkskin for another 3 ac which isn't too shabby. Most importantly, I'd be doing like double digit to hit rates and pretty heavy damage bonuses, so I get what you mean about melee being an option 8+.
As a side-note, for feat choices(for my bear companion) improved natural attack improves one -type- of attack, not just.. one attack right? So with the bear example, natural attack: claw would increase the damage die of both claws right? I wouldn't need to do one for right claw and one for left?
Hey I again think some context/clarification may help a little, at least as far as the other player. I'm not really mad at him, well, I kind of am, but my issue's more with his char. Anyway the situation is we aren't like Real life friends who know each other and play DND. We play online on basically a chatroom type client with a virtual die roller (it's a very simple kind of MUD for those who are familiar with what a MUD is) and we use google docs for character sheets(shared with the DM so he can have an eye on them) and we use a website the DM/owner of the MUD/chat client thing made that basically serves as our grid so we can play online, for free, in real time, the only real downside being we need to type out our actions and what we say and so on.
Due to this 90-95% of the time while we're on the 'client' we're basically in character only, so I can't really punch the player in the face even though sometimes I'd like to. I personally like it like that as it makes the whole thing more of a gaming experiencec and less of us just hack and slashing our way through dungeon after dungeon, but yeah.
Interesting - and relatable, as I do almost all of my gaming on a similar platform (OpenRPG). We also use Google Docs, Dropbox, and a wiki for hosting assorted files (maps, miniatures, soundtrack...), storing chat logs, and tracking things between sessions. In fact, in my two current games, I've only met one other player in person, and that was only for a few hours during a layover. I'm no stranger to the unique challenges virtual tabletops can bring.
The character in question is kind of an idiot, hair-trigger temper dwarf barbarian, so that's why he went nuts, although I still think both in game and out of game he went crazy over something really, really minor.
Anyway, because of this I kind of feel like being 'immature' back and killing his char, because.. I dunno, it just wasn't cool for him to attempt to PK me with such little justification, either out of game or in game, especally since my char has saved the group a bunch of times with his summons. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm less pissed at the player and more at the character if that makes sense, and also that out of game none of us have any real ties, except the DM's sister and brother do play with us sometimes.
The proper response here would probably be to talk to your DM - privately at first, so mail works. Although he did allow this kind of crap in the first place, he alone is in the ideal position to stop it. Your other players are a good place to go as well - especially if they understand the other player is doing no one any favors. Present your case rather than rolling for initiative, and you're probably going to fare better in the long run.
Of course, in the really long run, if you're playing with someone whose default response to not getting everything he wants is "I Rage", you're not looking at a stable table in the first place...
Anyway, I did some thinking and decided you're right about the animal companion thing and found an in game, RP reason to give up the dog, basically we're fighting dragons and crap like that now so she really doesn't belong there. I ended up getting a brown bear companion instead. Oh, and no, I never did train her for war, I actually.. embarassingly, didn't know that was possible. I did see it under the MM entry, but never saw it under handle animal and I kind of forgot about it until you just made your post -_- so.. yeah, I'm an asshat on that front[though I'd like not to be, so if you can explain how training for war works I'd love to know].
It's training an animal for a special purpose, although I admit this isn't exactly explicit, because while the riding dog makes it abundantly clear that "war" exists as a special purpose, Handle Animal calls it "fighting".
The reason behind this is likely legacy: in 3e, Handle Animal was more generic and didn't list explicit tricks for any of its special purposes. Rather, it gave a list of example special purposes - and while none of them said "war", one was "fighting alongside troops" and the list didn't claim to be exhaustive. When 3.5 hit, the skill was undoubtedly a higher priority to fix than the monster entry - particularly because the Animal type didn't get a serious revision (unlike, say, Outsider or Beast).
You're right about level 8+, I wasn't thinking about how ridiculously awesome being a brown bear could/would be. It does have kind of low ac, but since I keep my physical stat bonuses(again because of my DM's odd polymorph system, which I personally actually like, but that's just me maybe) I would have a natural ac of 18 (large brown bear is normally 15, +3 from my dex) and then I could add barkskin for another 3 ac which isn't too shabby. Most importantly, I'd be doing like double digit to hit rates and pretty heavy damage bonuses, so I get what you mean about melee being an option 8+.
Another thing to note is that your animal companion - if fighting a foe it can't hit - is a ready source of Aid Another. This gives you effectively +2 attack or +2 AC.
But the big point is the same one I made in your first thread: Druids scale exponentially, especially once higher-level spells and Large wild shapes enter the picture. Expect each level from here on out to be a serious boost in power. Play smart and know your spell list inside and out, and you'll be leaving your team in the dust, especially as they'll depend on equipment while you pretty much won't.
As I noted on the first page, your DM's wild shape / polymorph rules are absolutely insane, and only serve to make you better at your job. (Although honestly I still would have used the ability score array I mentioned there - you'd have more spells and more hit points at a very slight decrease in AC, which the spells and HP can make up for.)
As a side-note, for feat choices(for my bear companion) improved natural attack improves one -type- of attack, not just.. one attack right? So with the bear example, natural attack: claw would increase the damage die of both claws right? I wouldn't need to do one for right claw and one for left?
You'd pick "Bite" or "Claws" and it'd affect all natural attacks of that type. In fact, if you picked Claws and somehow got more claw attacks (I don't think there's a way in core short of polymorphing it, but work with me here) the feat would improve all the claws accordingly. The game doesn't distinguish between left and right claws for pretty much any purpose. (Even Greater Magic Fang will hit both claws on the first function - giving your bear companion two +2 claw attacks for 7 hours sounds like a pretty good use for a third-level spell slot, doesn't it?)
And yeah you're right, as far as the whole situation goes. I've calmed down about it and I'm less concerned with being the aggressor and more concerned with 1) making sure this is resolved, be it by having him leave the campaign, having all the party on my side so that he wouldn't dare try another stunt like that again, etc. or 2) being prepared to take him on one on one(well, two on one with my animal companion). I think I am comfortable with both now if I had to. Right now if he keeps up the crap then I'd probably barkskin and entangle(if possible) and then flaming sphere/call lightning him to death(his reflex saves suck), otherwise 8+ between buffs and large wild shape I think I wouldn't have much in the way of problems with him.
Finally, as for the riding dog thing that makes a lot more sense. Unfortunately, I trained her one week as a time, as our sessions/ooc time are equivalent (so we play once a week, and one week later both IC and OOC we do another adventure), so it was the only way to really make it work and I didn't see a benefit to doing it all at once. She did/does, ironically, have all the tricks in the 'fighting' pack though, so.. I dunno. Anyway, that's very good to know for the future.
Anyway, thanks for your help and yeah, let me knw if you can about the OpenRPG situation and if any campaigns are open, I'm kind of interested in trying a cleric codzilla now, so.. yeah. I did google search it but if you have your own recommendations on where to find campaigns and so on that'd be cool. Anyway, thanks for all your help, I'm feeling much better about this.
huh, can you give me more information on your open rpg platform? I'm always interested in another group/campaign, especially online since.. I dunno it somehow seems more nerdy to me to play in person.
We're using an older version of OpenRPG (the distribution number in the title bar shows it was compiled in 2010...) because that's what I've written all of our resources for, but you can explore a more recent version here. There are other free, open-source virtual tabletops out there - another I heartily endorse is MapTool. Many of these work on open servers as well, and if you hang around in their lobbies you might find open games or games willing to take you on as a spectator, but I wouldn't count on this as reliable. (In my experience most groups form, then decide to use programs like this - but pick-up sessions do exist.)
And yeah you're right, as far as the whole situation goes. I've calmed down about it and I'm less concerned with being the aggressor and more concerned with 1) making sure this is resolved, be it by having him leave the campaign, having all the party on my side so that he wouldn't dare try another stunt like that again, etc. or 2) being prepared to take him on one on one(well, two on one with my animal companion). I think I am comfortable with both now if I had to. Right now if he keeps up the crap then I'd probably barkskin and entangle(if possible) and then flaming sphere/call lightning him to death(his reflex saves suck), otherwise 8+ between buffs and large wild shape I think I wouldn't have much in the way of problems with him.
I think you're in the right headspace with this.
Although again, I'd like to note that damage is a poor choice here - his Reflex saves suck, but he has a lot of hit points, and druid spells aren't known for having a lot of spike damage in them. (They do great damage over time, but when you need a lot right now, they're poor - particularly because a lot of them have long casting times, which is the cost of having the action advantage they grant.) Even the arcane classes - which are traditionally better at dealing damage than divine casters - tend to deal only 1d6 damage per level with their blast spells by default, and barbarians have more than twice that many hit points (1d12+Constitution per level). Arcane casters can typically compensate with metamagic (at your level, for instance, an Empowered Scorching Ray does the equivalent of 12d6 damage), but then again, they could just switch to a spell that ████ing kills people.
Now, granted, most of the druid spells that do things like that aren't core - which is why the core-only druid usually buffs up and Wild Shapes. In a core environment, once you have the slots, Call Lightning, Flaming Sphere, and Produce Flame* aren't bad choices for spells - after the summons, Entangles, and possibly fogs are out. By and large you seem to have learned this well - but be advised that you're getting to the point where damage spells go out of style, and be prepared to shift.
*Interestingly, you can use Produce Flame as a natural attack buff of sorts, adding fire damage to your bear's claws. Look up Share Spells and the rules on holding the charge; I forget where the rules on delivering a touch spell with a natural weapon are offhand.