P.S.: I know this probably belongs in the Classes forum, but I was afraid it would degenerate quickly into "Fighters do not suck!" thread.
A fighter hits things, and it says so in his name, basically. A druid can do everything, but it doesn't say so in his name.
He's not the only one who says this. I have to say that in 3.5 the druid rises very quickly in power with more books that offer more spells and more wildshape forms. If you're used to only core and don't optimise, then druids CAN actually come off as lacklustre - because the class itself doesn't tell you what to do. Before I learned more about the class I played a druid/MOMF once and it sersiously sucked, even though we massively house-ruled Wildshape into something even better than it originally is. That was because due to lack of knowledge I didn't know my options at all.
A fighter hits things, and it says so in his name, basically. A druid can do everything, but it doesn't say so in his name.
This is quite accurate. I've heard people say such things about the Artificer. More or less it was like this: "Elves are a good Artificer race, because they can shoot a Longbow and thus aren’t limited to Crossbows...”
This would probably also do well in the 4e forum, but as far as i know, if your willing to spend some money on some equipment and are creative enough, druid is arguably (which it will be, at length) one of the most powerful classes in the game. Core PHB, by itself, no other source material, it is most likely the most powerful class present. The only problem with Druid is they went and made so many PrC's for arcane casters, they kinda left the druid in the dust. And there are going to be people that disagree with me on that. (probably right too, damn them)
They only needed to make one prestige class for the druid. It's called the planar shepherd, and everything else is superfluous.
Seriously? I'm gonna go with the quote of someone I have forgotten and thus can't credit: A druid needs exactly three feats. Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, and Natural Spell. Nothing else matters because by then you're too freaking awesome.
The druid gets 9th level divine spellcasting. That alone makes it quite good. Then they get nice animal companions which they can make even better with their spells, and then there's wild shape, and you haven't even gone into spontaneous summonings...
Seriously? I'm gonna go with the quote of someone I have forgotten and thus can't credit: A druid needs exactly three feats. Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, and Natural Spell. Nothing else matters because by then you're too freaking awesome.
ITS FUNNY BECAUSE ITS TRUE!
The druid gets 9th level divine spellcasting. That alone makes it quite good. Then they get nice animal companions which they can make even better with their spells, and then there's wild shape, and you haven't even gone into spontaneous summonings...
Seriously? I'm gonna go with the quote of someone I have forgotten and thus can't credit: A druid needs exactly three feats. Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, and Natural Spell. Nothing else matters because by then you're too freaking awesome.
Ah, but just imagine you're a new player with little access to books because you don't want to invest heavily initially. Then your DM doesn't want you to read through the Monster Manuals so you don't try to metagame. How will you ever find good forms for Wildshape? How will you find a good animal companion? With information this all changes, but a Druid still isn't quite as simple as, say, a Barb.
When I tried my first Druid he didn't get a dinosaur companion, he got a Viper. He cast these funny rolling fireballs and Lightnings bolts instead of excellent save or sucks. He summoned a bit, but didn't know what monsters performed well (I didn't know about Augment Summoning). Whenever combat started, he lost the first round to buffing or Wildshape. When he got in MOMF this changed a bit, but of course a MOMF "blows goats for pocket change", as was said about another prominent class around here. Even with massive house-rules (I could literally wildshape into our party Barb - that meant, thanks to his lucky rolls - an 18 in every physical stat, which to me was god-like, because my rolls sucked) somehow it felt unsatisfactory.
All of this was due to player error, of course, and a DM who didn't care how his players built their character as long as they seemed to have fun. But he still threw encounters at us that really overpowered me at the time. Those encounters were very well tweaked to seriosly challenge his party, and usually we somehow managed. I still at some point decided that this was no fun and dropped out of that group.
I'm not saying it wasn't all my stupidity. The Druid seriously rocks, period. But misconceptions are not impossible, even though the truth should eventually slap you in the face.
All three of those feats are core. That said, it does take time to realize the potential of the druid. Just like it takes time to realize that your wizard can do better than hurl Fireballs, or that clerics do not equal healbots.
+1
In your imaginary scenario aside. This new player came to the boards and has a computer so all he has to do now is google: hypertext 3.5 Srd and *SHIRAK!* instant access to the core 3 books.
The Dm wrestling... well that just comes with leveling up your RPG-fu
JaronK
But I must admit I hate them with a vengence - but that is mainly because I dont like to play them roleplayingvise. All that treehugging isnt really me. I know you can go all wrath of nature stuff, but I just dont like them.
There ofc is also the fact that in my playgroup we dont really like summoning because it takes alot of time to have 5 extra critters running around
Also the three feats aint core
Natural spell is in one of the first completes, cant remember augment summoning but I dont think its core.Anyways like said they also need alot of knowledge about the game to work to their max.
But on that note, I agree with most of what has been said. I may not like playing druids, but they are powerful. They're far from simple, they're very complicated, but they're incredibly powerful. A core druid alone can be the strongest character, if the player has access to information (animal stats, etc), but without that, a core druid will be a very sad character.
Natural spell is from the PHB as is Augment summoning. Check it, I assure that is the case unless my PHB is somekind of a special 'Your just too damn cool to wait for Natural spell until we start shipping more splatbooks' edition.
Natural Spell and Augment Summoning were in splatbooks in 3.0 and 'upgraded' to core in 3.5, IIRC. That could be the confusion.
I had some people once tell me with a straight face that druids were the weakest class in the 3.5 game. I couldn't help it I laughed in their faces, and that was when all I had was core. I played a druid in that campaign and by the end of the first adventure (we started at 7th level) lets just say everyone's eyes were opened to the glory of the druid.
+1.
The druid is the best class Core....
I can and will argue this until the end of time.
When you add more books, the Drud only gets better...
I'm sorry but all of this "legendary Ape" ******** is not necessary. With fifteen minutes and just the first monster manual I can find wildshapes that at every level will out do the same leve Barbarian/or fighter, and I CAN STILL CAST SPELLS to control the battle field.
In short, the only downside to playing a druid is when I play one I kinda feel like I'm cheating... They're just that good
IF your DM makes stupid rules mistakes (this is sad, very common), and the players don't know how to take advantage of their options, then yes, the Barbarian will seem more powerful than the wizard and the sorcerer will seem better than the druid.
But I must admit I hate them with a vengence - but that is mainly because I dont like to play them roleplayingvise. All that treehugging isnt really me. I know you can go all wrath of nature stuff, but I just dont like them.
They fixed that in Eberron.
That's fluff anyways. Fluff can change, as long as the mechanics stay the same.
If only everyone agreed to that statement, this world would be a better place. Unfortunately far too many people in RPing think the fluff must stay as the fluff is written in the book. Go tree-huggers, I'll be a fricking TreeMASTER. Or a tree-abuser. Whatever. If you even suggest to them that a mechanic that works in other ways can actually be used in other ways.... the SACRILEGE!!
And while we're at it, Clerics and Druids aren't the only healers. Binders, Crusaders, Favoured Souls, and Dread Necromancers can be incredible healers.
JaronK
I know, but that friend thinks that clerics or druids are the only ones that can heal, and that healing is the only thing they can do. Not nearly the only thing.
I guess that means Druids are only good from 1st-16th level, which is the greatest range of any base class I can think of.
-AS-
Isn't that a bit far fetched? Saying that they're only useful untill lvl 16 because after that, the Wizard, of all classes, gets even better?
Being the best for the largest number of levels is pretty impressive to me. Once 9th level spells come in to play things sort of get screwy anyway. The wildshape changes are pretty rough, though. Not being able to benefit from animal growth, etc is a pain.
-AS-
But ill agree with everyone here druid is very powerfull. Also claiming that the druid and cleric is there to heal is just stupid no matter how much you dislike the classes.
I know people in my current playgroup that didnt make af druid / momf because they thought it to be too gamebreaking
1st-16th
1-14 is the druid's undisputed range IMO. Level 8-9 spells are powerhouse enough to compete with the meh high level druid spells. Druids are still competitive, but not auto-win 15+. Elemental WS is hard to replicate.
The Wild Shape changes hurt Druid a lot in terms of spellcasting strength. Not gaining the animal type when wildshaping prevents you from using a lot of their buff spells. They still have a good selection, but after 9th level spells become available, wizards blow them out of the water by virtue of the much better spell access and wildshape's lack of usefulness after Shapechange is gained.
Wildshape diminishes in power when you get Shapechange, but it's not entirely useless. After all, you can Wildshape into one form for the extraordinary special attacks, then Shapechange into whatever else you want. Or the reverse. It's like a limited version of the Master Transmogrifist's Infinite Variety. (It works because both Wildshape and Shapechange trash extraordinary racial abilities, but not extraordinary abilities gained from classes.)
Alternate Form
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:
The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.
also...
At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.
From shapechange (which druids do get)
You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.
So unless I missed something big in the errata wildshape is still very good and shapechange is still really good (imo).
My animal companion has more hp and a higher AC than anyone in the party, Entangle basicly grants the entire party 4 or so rounds to pelt the enemy with ranged attacks and I can blast if need be with Produce Flame and Call Lightning. And then there's the summons (that I haven't even used extensively, mind you). Ow, and ofcourse, I don't perform that horrible in melee either, even without Wildshape
With our party, a Half-Orc Barbarian, an Elf archer Ranger, a human wizard and me (human druid with Riding Dog trained for war ;)), we've repeatedly defeated things like Bulletes and destrachan, from when we were level 2-3 until now.
I think it's save to say that both me and the wizard are MVP's here ^^
~Bowen
There is no doubt that wildshape is still handy. The problem is all of the great buff spells the druid gets that only work on creatures with the animal type. Since wildshape doesn't change type, you can't self-buff with those. Once you get shapechange, wildshape becomes pretty worthless. Like I said, this really kicks in at high levels, though.
-AS-
I know people in my current playgroup that didnt make af druid / momf because they thought it to be too gamebreaking
IMHO the MOMF is really not a very good class, because it relegates itself to pure BSF. Spellcasting is far more valuable.
I also think the Druid loses its extraordinary shine after level 17. YES, druids get shapechange, but they don't get Miracle. IMHO Miracle alone makes up for a lot.
Also, their difficulty at getting Domain slots/Domain spells hurt them. An arcane gish can get Divine Power quite easily, a Druid can't. That loss of BAB means loss of 15-25% melee damage over a Cleric of the same level. (Arguably the Contemplative gives domain slots as well as a bonus domain. This doesn't come out clearly in the wording.)
Clerics and Wizards make a huge jump in power at Lvl 17, druids can't keep up. If you take Persisting spells into account, the druid loses further, since both Clerics and Wizards (via Incantatrix) can do it, but the druid is stuck with his durations. Even though he has access to the most powerful divine spellcasting buff spell there is (Owl's Insight), he can never benefit from bonus spell slots due to it, while a Cleric 19/Hierophant 1 can.
The only remaining advantage the Druid has is sitting in an un-dispellable wildshape form (ideally Air Elemental) all day long until something happens, while even a Persisted Shapechange Cleric or Wizard are in danger of being dispelled.
So in order to keep up the Druid must sacrifice his possible Monk levels in order to make Druid18/Cleric1/Hierophant1. This build loses one 9th level spell slot over a Cleric, but wins one back by not needing a miracle to get Owl's Insight.
Any Druid build incorporating Monk for flurry and AC bonus loses even more spellcasting. Tabular instead of text Sacred Fist builds lose even more.
Druids can never cast (Gr) Consumptive Field, the spell that can immediately make the party Barb feel really weak.
Druids cannot easily cast Giant Size on top of Shapechange, while a Cleric can, (I'm leaving the non-sensical Fauxlymorph erratas out of the picture) although as has been said stacking Wildshape and Shapechange can give some benefits. The ACF Shapeshift druid can get some more benefits here, but is a weaker class overall.
Even with Contemplative Druids have a really hard time getting Time Stop AND Divine Power, which means they always lose in a buffing speed contest. The choice here is clearly between mid-game prowess and late game prowess, since I don't believe a lot of druids will consider six levels of Contemplative. (Although arguably a druid could use Domain slots from Contemplative to prepare domain spells gained by a level of cleric, hence a viable build could be Druid 10/Contemplative 1/Cleric 1/Druid 7/Hierophant 1 with Domain Spontaneity (feat). What you want to get is Divine Power, Time Stop and Miracle and gain more access to them via Domain Spontaneity. Which is exactly possible with three domains - the fluff pending. This build has a lot of potential if you can get the rule uncertainties and fluff issues past your DM.)
Druids have a hard time getting dispelling abilities - or resisting them.
So really, at high levels IMHO the druid is being trumped - not because he is weak, but because others just become stronger. A druid needs a lot more optimisation to compete with a cleric, than, uh, a cleric. In a duel, as was shown, he might win against a cleric, but that's because duels of optimised characters are mostly initiative contests.
All that being said, a high level druid still rules supreme over any non-ToB non-caster melee build.
I know people in my current playgroup that didnt make af druid / momf because they thought it to be too gamebreaking
MoMF is (in most cases) a step-down for a Druid. They lose two things: spellcasting progression + animal companion progression.
Really, wildshape alone isn't broken. Druid spellcasting alone isn't broken. The animal companion alone isn't broken. Stick them in a blender, make the Druid class and BAM!
EDIT: Ninja'd by a bigger post...
Shapechange into colossal animated spiked adamantine roller. What Miracle?
Which exactly shows how ludicrous this debate is. Yay, give druids a boost because they are too weak...
So I hear they fixed the Druid in the 4th edition...
It's more or less a joke, as the person who said this, was serious. Being a longtime lurker here, I really can't take this serious.
If someone doesn't play a druid to its utmost, they won't think the class is all that. I got into a debate with a player once when I mentioned how stupid-crazy-broken the Druid was (in my houserules for the game, I required the Shapeshift druid). He remarked that Wild Shape wasn't that powerful; I countered by reminding him that he always turned into stuff like ferret and weasels instead of dinosaurs.
If it weren't for the fact that I loathe the druid on both flavor and mechanics (polymorph and summoning are pains in the butt), I'd bust out a Druid From Hell sometime. Ultimately, though, I wouldn't enjoy playing the character, so I probably won't.
So I hear they fixed the Druid in the 4th edition...
There is no such thing as a balanced role playing game. Don't get your hopes up too much.
If someone doesn't play a druid to its utmost, they won't think the class is all that. I got into a debate with a player once when I mentioned how stupid-crazy-broken the Druid was (in my houserules for the game, I required the Shapeshift druid). He remarked that Wild Shape wasn't that powerful; I countered by reminding him that he always turned into stuff like ferret and weasels instead of dinosaurs.
If it weren't for the fact that I loathe the druid on both flavor and mechanics (polymorph and summoning are pains in the butt), I'd bust out a Druid From Hell sometime. Ultimately, though, I wouldn't enjoy playing the character, so I probably won't.
Same problem here. I also require shapeshift variant, and one of my players flipped... apparently having not yet figured out that full divine casting +animal companion + wildshape = epitome of stupidity. I would run one sometime in one of his games, but I hate making really broken characters. Good, yes. Great, sure. Broken? Nah. Boring. You are not alone, my friend.
Fighters are only good for RP too, because they're way too broken to actually take into combat (though this is the other kind of broken).