I'd like to see some people's combat strategies on a round by round basis.
For example,
4th level tactic: Assume Barkskin is active.
1st round: Cast Entangle on opponents
2nd round: Flaming Sphere an opponent that fails his save/pounce (with jump check to clear the vines) with your leopard animal companion
3rd round: use reach weapon (spear) to hit others trapped within the vines
Of course, I'm more interested in Wild Shape ideas than spells. I'm really just interested in what a typical combat looks like for your druids at all levels.
Since the new Wild Shape nerf, it seems that Druid 20 builds can't really compete.
Don't worry they still can, very much so.
And you have the right idea about combat, battlefield control is a strong focus & discipline of the druid.
How do you get around these problems? Any notable Swift actions buffs?
I'm not sure about "3.75" but it's the most up-to-date Wild Shape errata: that which doesn't allow you to assume the Animal Type as well as restricting you to your original HP. It just seems that even with Bite of the WereXXX plus other buffs like Superior Magic Fang, the Druid forms aren't really that scary anymore. The other thing is: actions are so precious in a D&D encounter and it really hurts to spend the first two rounds on Standard action, round/level buffs.
How do you get around these problems? Any notable Swift actions buffs?
There are some swift action buffs, mainly for your animal companion (Nature's Favor, for one). But that's not really a concern, a lot of good buffs are hour/level or 10 min/level. That kind of spell can get you far without ever resorting to short duration buffs (though the "Bite of" series rocks).
And even keeping the HP, Druid is still super powerfull, it just went from being a one stat class to a two stat class. With long duration buffs and/or items you'll still have good HP and ridiculous AC. Plus, you're still a full caster.
IMO the Druid still is the most versatile class in the game and one of the most powerful.
"Fast Wild Shape" might be your new best friend. Gets you in shape in a move action.
Or consider the 'shifting variant' from PHB2. It looks bad, but I haven't tried that one yet. Rarely, things turn out differently ingame.
There are rumors about a druid variant that trades in wild shape for monk AC, movement and favored enemies. Bad trades are bad trades.
Might be handy to any druid heading to a non-shaping PrC though.
The Shapeshifter variant in PHB2 is a different way of playing Druid. Is it as numerically powerful from an optimized perspective? No. Does it give you a ton of battlefield and in-game options that raw numbers don't represent? Absolutely. If you want a fun and interesting option, try it out.
As to round by round progression, it really depends what Druid role you are trying to fulfill. I prefer to lean towards grapplers with grappling animal companions (cats, not bears). The cat then makes a beeline for their caster/fragile blasting guy in the back while I tie down the biggest, meanest monster on the field. The first round is used for any buffs, but after that, you can't really afford to lose much time on spells (unless you are focusing on casting instead of front line fighting).
-ktkenshinx-
If you can find more options for what to do with shapeshift than what you can do with wildshape, then you need to take another look at wildshape. And your animal companion for that matter.
As for opening rounds, my usual opening move for kelpstrand. If that fails, I usually go for a reflex save with something like tremor or entangle. (Just for the record, considering the poster before me suggested grapplers, I typically find kelpstrand has a larger grapple score than anything I can turn into...)
The change to wildshape, in regards to type, I actually find more empowering than a loss. Now I get to keep my Darkvision et al, racial qualities in wild-shape. The bonus hitpoints provided during wildshape were usually icing on the (cheese)cake for me anyway, and I can see why it would need to be changed (or am I the only one that ran the Shambling Mound hitpoint bomb by my DM?).
Druids still have access to some of the best 10min/lvl, hr/lvl, and 24hr duration buffs in the game. They still have access to some of the best battlefield control spells in the game (Kelpstrand is by far the most broken spell of it's level). They still can, for a very long duration, take some of the best combat forms in the game, and use them more effectively than the monster that normally has those forms can, because they can buff themselves first and cast while in those forms (and heal themselves after killing everything in the room). They can still walk around with Crazy Eddy, the poisonous giant armored velociraptor who spits acid⁚, at their beck and call.
Education:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=733400
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=955078
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=709233
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=796496
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=377248
And Fast Wild Shape is ok as is Swift, but that's two feats. The mantle of the beast from Complete Champion costs 18k and lets you wild shape as a swift action while giving you a minor +1 bonus to attack and damage.
EDIT: found it, it's Blinding Spittle.
Of course, if you abuse it, the spell is either going to get nerfed, or your going to be fighting nothing but things with FoM up all the time.
I found this spell to be simply amazing... especially when dealing with the frenzied berserker goblin in the group...
I'm very much of the opinion that I can never be bothered with 'pets'/cohorts. They tend to get forgotten about most of the time and then 'pop' into existence when needed. With that in mind, what decent swap-outs are available for loosing the druid's animal companion that I may not be aware of?
Would Kelp Strand garner benefits from having the Improved Grapple feat?
I found this spell to be simply amazing... especially when dealing with the frenzied berserker goblin in the group...
I'm very much of the opinion that I can never be bothered with 'pets'/cohorts. They tend to get forgotten about most of the time and then 'pop' into existence when needed. With that in mind, what decent swap-outs are available for loosing the druid's animal companion that I may not be aware of?
By RAW, since you are making the grapple check, kelp strand would gain a +4 from Improved Grapple. It is a very useful spell.
There aren't a lot of things that allow you to replace your animal companion. The only option I know of loses too much other stuff to be worth it. (Shapeshift) But if you can't find uses for an animal who's feats you get to choose, then you really need to stop and thing "What can't I do, and how can my animal companion do it?"
(While it does replace a companion with a companion, I will give a nod to Elemental Companion from Complete Mage, who has an intelligence score. Not as strong, but nice all the same.)
Aquatic Druid: (Storm, p 50): Choose an aquatic animal companion.
Druidic Avenger (UA, p 51): No Animal Companion or Spontaneous Casting, penalty to Wild Empathy. Gain Fast Movement and Rage.
Elemental Companion (CM, p 33): Gain an Elemental as a companion instead of an animal.
Halfling Druid 1 (RotW, p 157): Add Climb, Hide, Jump, and Move Silently to skill list. 6 skills points per level. Spontaneous Casting (Special list of spontaneous spells), Enhanced Link (bonus to ride animal companion)
Half-Orc Druid 1 (RoD, 159): d10 hitdice, Add Intimidate as class skill. Animal Companion gains Toughness.
Goliath Druid 6 (RoS, p 151): Earth Companion (animal companion gains earth-type and some stat changes)
Phynxkin Companion (DrM, p 13): Gain a phynxkin instead of your normal animal companion.
Shapeshifter (PHB2, p 39): Lose animal companion and wildshape. Gain the ability to change into several forms, with set bonuses, at will.
Shifter Druid 1 (RoE, p 126): Add Balance, Climb, and Jump to class skills. Beast Spirit (grants powers and abilities as level increase). Replaces animal companion.
Urban Companion (City, web): Instead of a normal animal companion, instead gain something similar to a familiar.
Strategy of my uldra druid lvl 3 with Riding Dog animal companion/mount:
* conjure ice beast I (ice beast wolf with cold aura to do automatic 1d6 to enemies in a radius + attack + flank)
* my riding dog (trained for war, with leather barding) bites someone, trying to trip him; grants +1 morale bonus to attack via Distracting Attack (miniature handbook)
* I blast from medium distance with Winter's Blast reserve feat
* sometimes I wade into combat, heavily armored with dragonhide breast plate and heavy shield to distract opponent and occassionally (rarely) bash them with my club
* Sandblast
* cast Enrage Animal on my riding dog (duration: concentration), giving him a decent attack: +8 melee, 1d6+7, Trip +5, 18 AC
* heal people with Wand of CLW or Wand of Lesser Vigor
I feel like SNA is my best resource as a straight Druid 20. My game plan was to use defensive aerial forms like the Dire Hawk amidst a (quickened?) Cloudburst spell (for additional protection against range). From here I can use summon creatures to set up flanking maneuvres with my party and rain down Call Lightning. Of course this requires quite a number of castings so I am looking at a more front line appoach to combat that allows me to wade into combat personally.
I can't help but think that there's no way that a Wild Shape Druid in Dire Bear or Tiger form can match the damage output of the leap attacking Big Stupid Fighter. I have been playing around with Lion's Pouncing Diving Shadow Dragons though and it seems to be the best bet. Agree? Disagree?
Thanks so much for the combat breakdown cru; that's exactly what I'm looking for.
Thanks again guys.
It comes down to this: you can build a Fighter that can come close to the Druid in one party role, but chances are the Druid is going to be better at that with far less optimization required and still capable of filling other party roles.
How well do your typical Dire Bear forms with Bite of the Werebear and whatnot fair in combat? Any speedbumps I should look out for when taking this approach?
The only thing that I don't like is that everybody boasts the Druid's great versatility and yet most responses promote the Kelpstrand approach to combat and almost nothing else.
Dude. I posted 5 separate enormous handbooks all about druids and the PrC's/Spells built around them.
I am not going to sit here and re-hash 5, 10+ page threads about the druid's versatility. Do some reading. Me going over all the 1000 ways a druid can function is redundant.
I'm playing an Arcane Heirophant right now. I can assure you 'nerfs to Wildshape' have done nothing to prevent me from being top tier, and quite effective, in my group and I'm behind everyone else on spell levels.
I'm playing an Arcane Heirophant right now. I can assure you 'nerfs to Wildshape' have done nothing to prevent me from being top tier, and quite effective, in my group and I'm behind everyone else on spell levels.
I'm playing one right now too. The versatility is silly, I've actually gotten my DM mad a few times by having a Standard Action to deal with most situations. And the few I don't, I just need an hour!
I don't even Wild Shape! I summon, attack with an intelligent animal companion, and enjoy FULL CASTING.
Does anybody use different combat approaches that don't involve the obviously broken Venomfire? I really like the ideas of summoning multiple single-attack animals (like crocodiles) and using Snake's Swiftness, Mass on them all.
How well do your typical Dire Bear forms with Bite of the Werebear and whatnot fair in combat? Any speedbumps I should look out for when taking this approach?
So, you start by saying that the Fighter outdamages the Druid because the Wild Shape nerfs (which are like 2 years old btw) diminished it's power level, and when one single spell proves the opposite you complain it's broken?
Newsflash: it is. The entire Druid class is. If you can't see that, do some research on here and you'll find out.
And in a lot of cases damage dealing will be secondary to spellcasters because they can do so much stuff that blasting/pouncing/whatever that deals damage gets boring. At high levels a lot of Druids can just pump their caster level to infinity and beyond, cast Leonal's Roar and blow up the enemy with no save, or at least disable them so that the Fighter can use his expensive sword and feel good about himself.
If you insist on damage dealing, the Druid can still make the Fighter look silly by summoning storm elementals. At 13th level, for example, one single casting of SNA brings an elemental who can imediately blast the enemy for 24d6 damage and has 200 HPs (with augment summoning). At higher levels it's even more ridiculous because their damage gets even higher and you can get more than one per casting.
I don't even Wild Shape! I summon, attack with an intelligent animal companion, and enjoy FULL CASTING.
We've taken to calling my Raven, the vorpal meat-grinder.
It's awesome.
Just a few quicks questions though: does your BAB bonus apply on top of your caster level and Wis modifier for Kelpstrand? Based on the third sentence of the spells descriptor, it sounds like it does. Also, what's this Shambler/Lightning/Storm spells combination that can do 10d4 Con damage?
I don't mean to start a flame war here and I have read all of your posted links but I was simply interested in hearing a variety of combat tactics that took into account more things that just a single spell; the sort of round-by-round ideas that you see at the end of a Balor's entry in the MM.
Look through the handbooks. There's spell advice, equipment advice, feat advice, wild-shape advice, and animal companion advice in just about every one of them.
'Round-by-round tactics' do not illustrate the druid's power, because the druid's power is versatility (on top of raw power). I could break down how I would completely own a given situation, if you had one, but that's not the point. The point is that, I can also own 3000 other given situations, in 10000 other ways, because I have the versatility to come at you a number of ways.
Just a few quicks questions though: does your BAB bonus apply on top of your caster level and Wis modifier for Kelpstrand? Based on the third sentence of the spells descriptor, it sounds like it does. Also, what's this Shambler/Lightning/Storm spells combination that can do 10d4 Con damage?
You BAB and any other modifiers to attack/grapple (other than size/strength, which get replaced) all apply to the mods for kelpstrand.
I don't know what your talking about in regards to con damage. I just remember pointing out to my DM in one of my first 3.5 campaigns as a druid that wildshape desperately needed nerfing. When he asked why, I showed him that I could wildshape into a Shambling mound first thing in the morning (with the Enhance Wildshape spell, to get all it's Ex's), cast Call Lightning, and give myself 10d4 temporary con points (average +12 hit points/level). That's when we houseruled that Con changes didn't increase hitpoints with Wildshape et al. It wasn't until later that I found the errata, which actually pre-dated our house-rule, but still.
Druids are effin scary :p
What form would you take to do roughly 200 damage at 8th level? Is it a Venomfire thing?
Giant Octopus. 8 attacks, 1d4 + 5 damage, 2d8 + 6 constrict, 1d8 + 2 bite.
AC: Shillelagh/Brambles/Spikes can make a staff very scary. Nature's Favor makes your animal companion pretty good, and Bite of the Were gives bonuses that make the fighter feel very insignificant. Mass Snake's Swiftness, if you just want some Direct Damage, now, and it makes your party members feel important. Summons.
Fort: Control Winds, Poison, probably others, just nothing comes to mind
Will: This is a lot less common an effect for druids,with nothing coming to mind off the top of my head.
Reflex: Entangle, Tremor, Flame Strike, if you're into the whole blasty thing, and some reserve feats,while we are at it.
Grapple: Kelpstrand, Spiritjaws, summoning things with improved grab.
Trip: Summoning dire wolves/other trippers.
Against non-fliers: Any form of flight + Wind wall = Win. Take your pick of what to do with the spare time, although I suggest killing the enemy.
I wish there was a good PrC for summoner Druids. Moonspeaker is kinda meh.
If my Druid is Level 5:
1st: (with 5 different potential actions)
(1) If I can determine who the caster is I'd Kelp strand him immediately.
(2)If I cannot, then I'll cast Impeding stones [lvl 1 spell] if the enemies are grouped(imagine entangle but usable on any terrain and its prone instead of entanglement)
(3)If i know the enemies are primarily non fighters (crap fort saves) then i'll cast Echo of the Lirr [level 2] to stun them all for 1d3 rounds
(4)If enemies are spread out i'll cast Conjure Ice beast for 1d6 aura damage per round (up to 10 feet) with a fairly high AC for a level 1 summon and 20 hp to boot!
(5) If surrounded by enemies i'll cast obscuring mist to mess up their coordination
I could write more but more or less this is what usually solves my problems. Moving Along.
2nd:
(1) After kelping that caster I'd conjure ice beast to have any potential allies suffer 1d6 as well as use it for killing off the caster
(2) After Impeding Stones I'd cast entanglement on top to make it excessively difficult to get out of the area, or if i want to add variety to the saving throws i'll cast Echo of the Lirr for fortitude instead.
(3) After having stunned the enemies I'd either summon creatures out to finish them off while i could or, call lightning to pelt the ones close to each
(4) After summoning the ice beast I'd probably summon again or frost breath whomever the ice beast is attacking to try and help it gain an advantage against 1 or more enemies
(5) After casting obscuring mist i'll probably cast embrace the wild so i can see properly in the mist
3rd:
(1) after messing up the caster if there are people surrounding him still trying to save him, cast call lightning or echo of the lirr or frost breathe
(2) After 2 area of effect movement impeding spells get summons next to them to finish the job
(3) If enemies are still stunned keep summoning or keep blasting
(4) If enemies are starting to swarm me i'll wildshape into a desomdu bat and get to safer ground (a tree, some kinda mountainous area nearby, right through my allies) and transform back. Or I'll cast luminous armour or if i can feel i can take him and i'm not needed right now i'll do the fleshraking dino routine.
(5) since enemies are blinded from me and i can still see them, summon out creatures, call lightning them, or faerie fire them to help track for allies
Unfortunately for druids they lack a lot of save vs will spells. If anyone else knows any please by all means contribute
Only ones I know of are
Level 3: Creaking Cacophony
Level 3: Blunted Blades
Level 6: Mandagora
Thanks again
Or just, you know, use your full casting and battfield-control them. You have 3rd level spells after all.
Unfortunately for druids they lack a lot of save vs will spells. If anyone else knows any please by all means contribute
Only ones I know of are
Level 3: Creaking Cacophony
Level 3: Blunted Blades
Level 6: Mandagora
chill / heat metal (2)
dawnshroud (Champions of Valor, 5, vs undead and oozes)
jungle's rapture (SpC, 5)
languor (SpC, 4)
mark of the outcast (SpC, 2)
moon bolt (SpC, 4, vs undead)
nature's wrath (ECS, gatekeeper 4, vs unnatural beings)
phantasmal disorientation (CD, 6)
sleep mote (sandstorm, 5)
spark of life (SpC, 4, vs undead)
word of balance (SpC, 7)
spells vs animals and plants
cure spells (vs undead)
Edit: also, creaking cacophony was updated in SpC and has no save now
"Fast Wild Shape" might be your new best friend. Gets you in shape in a move action.
Useless. Mantle of the beast allows you to do that as a swift action for but 18000gp.
And the Druid wild shape nerf is often misunderstood. The simplest method to get the hitpoints of the newly assumed for is just to put on the Amulet of Health+6 after you have wild shaped into some terrifying monster. Subsequent changes still effect your hitpoints, you see.