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Druid Questions

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lordaxion
Jul 28, 2009 16:13:51 Hey, I'm back at the character optimization boards for the same thing I was here the first time for - got a new campaign coming up and don't want to suck.

I've never played a Druid before and that's what I'm probably going to play. There's another Divine Caster in the group so I'm not concerned about having to pick up the healing role - thus I'm looking at the Wild Shape and figuring that could be a lot of fun - but I'm also wondering if going into a Wildshaping PRC is worth the loss of the Full Caster Levels + Toys, or if Druid20 is the way to go.

My current gameplan involves the use of the old Shifter class - ran it by my DM and it seems to be legitimate for me to use as opposed to MoMF.

I'm thinking I take the Shifter class to 7 (Abberations) or maybe 8 (Dragons) and then take a two level dip into Chameleon so that I can wake up each morning and choose a different Assume Supernatural Ability feat for that day, then morph into something like a Dragon and breathe death in a huge cone down the street.

Not sure, again, if I'm drug-addled for making this, though. The fact that the first two feats have to be Alertness and Endurance bites a lot - two feats I would never, ever take for any other reason. I lose Full Druid casting and pick up some Su abilities, but only one per day, meaning if I want to use it I'll have to stay in that specific form.

I'm not looking for utter broken-ness or pure optimization from a mechanics standpoint, as much as I want to be the character that can pull something new out every day and still be effective.
#2
tehlivingdeath
Jul 28, 2009 16:36:24 If you're looking into Shifter or MoMF, Wildshape Ranger is a good entry class since you get Endurance for free, have better BAB and losing caster progression isn't that big of a deal. After getting what you want out of Shifter/MoMF, Chameleon, Warshaper and Nature's Warrior are good options.

You could also just start with Druid and get more levels after you finish MoMF, but if you're concerned about being a spellcaster, Planar Sheppard is better. If your DM bans it (a lot of them do), go for Druid/MoMF/Druid.
#3
tshern
Jul 28, 2009 16:48:07 I'd rather pick up Dragon wild shape and Aberrant wild shape feats myself. The casting you get is way more valuable than the few feats you would have to sacrifice that way.

Druid 20 is a perfectly legitimate build for a wild shaper. Druid 19/Monk 1 is another option, but I'd rather use a Monk's belt with a Wilding clasp than lose the caster level for no tangible benefit you cannot receive by spending a few thousand coins.
#4
lordaxion
Jul 28, 2009 17:12:29 Edit: Found Dragon Wild Shape in the Draconomicon. If I can get that by my DM you bet I'm taking it.

I was going to complain about Abberant Wild Shape being two feats, but it's not Alertness/Endurance at least...

But I wouldn't have to go six levels into a prestige class. That's pretty cool.
#5
thebigstupidfighter
Jul 28, 2009 20:58:19 Yeah, aberrant wildshape is totally worth the two feats. As for suggestions of what to wildshape into with your lovely new transformative powers, beholder is a very fun option. For ultimate novaing power, however, the Choker is king.

Its "Quickness" ability allows you an additional standard or move action each turn, and what does this mean? More novaing power! Obviously, not something to use in every combat, since you'd run out of spells fast, but for your big fights nothing beats it.

For a build, I suggest straight Druid with one level of Contemplative. This allows you to add any domain to your spells known. Select the Time domain, giving you access to Time Stop and, as a side benefit, Celerity.

This leaves you with full casting and the only ability you lose is Wildshape(huge) which isn't really important since you're using aberrant wildshape in the first place.

When to take Contemplative is up to you, either at 17th level to get Time Stop or, if you like, sometime earlier if Celerity is more important to you than the next level of Druid special abilities.
#6
lordaxion
Jul 29, 2009 2:28:15 Are there any other feats out there that give access to Wild Shapes of the more odd nature, particularly undead? Since last I heard we couldn't apply random templates to Wild Shape.
#7
tshern
Jul 29, 2009 6:35:35
Yeah, aberrant wildshape is totally worth the two feats. As for suggestions of what to wildshape into with your lovely new transformative powers, beholder is a very fun option. For ultimate novaing power, however, the Choker is king.

Pretty much agreed.

For a build, I suggest straight Druid with one level of Contemplative. This allows you to add any domain to your spells known. Select the Time domain, giving you access to Time Stop and, as a side benefit, Celerity.

False. Time domain does not have Celerity as a spell. So far (apart from the domains granting Wish, Limited Wish or Miracle), Spell domain and its Greater Anyspell is the only domain allowing Celerity. At least as far as I know. However, I don't think Time stop is worth that much.

When to take Contemplative is up to you, either at 17th level to get Time Stop or, if you like, sometime earlier if Celerity is more important to you than the next level of Druid special abilities.

No Celerity there as mentioned.

Are there any other feats out there that give access to Wild Shapes of the more odd nature, particularly undead? Since last I heard we couldn't apply random templates to Wild Shape.

I do not believe any feat allows undead wild shaping.
#8
lordaxion
Jul 29, 2009 7:06:00 Yeah, I found one - but it wanted me to be undead, which isn't happening at first level, I don't think.

That's alright - I've tied being an aberration-blooded druid pretty heavily into my RP now, and this is going to be a horrific lot of fun. If only Snatch worked on the tentacles I could get with Deepspawn's feat. Ahhh. alas.

At this point I think I'll go pretty much full Druid casting, as I don't think the levels in Chameleon to pick up the changeable bonus feat are worth waiting two more levels to get access to spells, particularly Shapechange at 16. And with Aberrant Wild Shape at six I get to do all sorts of relatively crazy stuff. Assuming I read it right, when I become an Ilithid (at 8th level) for example, I get access to Mind Blast and Extract as Special Attacks... which is already above and beyond what normal characters do. And full Druid casting.
#9
tshern
Jul 29, 2009 7:09:02 For heaven's sake, do not take any Chameleon levels. Your current plan looks pretty alright. As said, there are hardly any viable multiclass/PrC options for Druids, at least without grabbing some campaign specific material into play...
#10
cru
Jul 29, 2009 7:51:29
Yeah, I found one - but it wanted me to be undead, which isn't happening at first level, I don't think.

That's alright - I've tied being an aberration-blooded druid pretty heavily into my RP now, and this is going to be a horrific lot of fun. If only Snatch worked on the tentacles I could get with Deepspawn's feat. Ahhh. alas.

At this point I think I'll go pretty much full Druid casting, as I don't think the levels in Chameleon to pick up the changeable bonus feat are worth waiting two more levels to get access to spells, particularly Shapechange at 16. And with Aberrant Wild Shape at six I get to do all sorts of relatively crazy stuff. Assuming I read it right, when I become an Ilithid (at 8th level) for example, I get access to Mind Blast and Extract as Special Attacks... which is already above and beyond what normal characters do. And full Druid casting.

* No chameleon please.
* Shapechange is a 9th lvl spell, therefore reachable by druid 17.
* You don't take aberrant wild shape at six. At level six you take natural spell.
* So, at level 9, when you take aberrant wild shape, you can indeed wild shape to Mind Flayer. You don't get Mind Blast, as it is a spell-like ability. You do get Improved Grab and Extract, as there are extraordinary abilities.
* Not even Planar Shepherd / MoMF can access aberration SLAs (Shepherd can access the EX, SU, and SLAs of outsiders and elementals)
* If you cast enhance wild shape (SpC) before changing, you can access also non-attack extraordinary abilities (in case of mind flayer, SR).
* To access Telepathy (supernatural), you would need the Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species.
* refer to this overview of what you get with wild shape: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3479.0
* druids rock!
#11
thebigstupidfighter
Jul 29, 2009 8:10:19 Funny, I thought the time domain had celerity in it, but more to the point is Time Stop. As far as I'm concerned, its critical to the strategy of any high level caster (although a choker-form druid might get away without it)

By the way, I forgot to mentiuon this earlier, but to get mind blast (and everything else that makes Aberrant Wildshape worth having) you also need to pick up Assume Supernatural Ability. That way you can get all the nasty powers of your abberation form.

Also, I would suggest the feats that make wildshaping faster, can't remember the names, but one feat reduces the action cost to a move action and the next reduces it to a swift action. With Swift Abberant Supernatural Wildshaping you'll be hard to predict on the battlefield, as one minute you're a beholder and then, POW!, you're an Umber Hulk.
#12
tshern
Jul 29, 2009 8:38:59 There is no need for anyone to take Fast Wild Shape and Swift Wild Shape. Ever. Mantle of the beast from Complete Champion gives you the benefits and more for 18 000 gold pieces.
#13
thebigstupidfighter
Jul 29, 2009 8:46:32 Thank you. I'll be playing a druid soon and will probably use that at higher levels.
#14
tshern
Jul 29, 2009 9:01:45
Thank you. I'll be playing a druid soon and will probably use that at higher levels.

It is a... decent item. Have a look at the Ring of the Beast from the same book too.
#15
lordaxion
Jul 29, 2009 9:48:39 Sorry, stole a quick look at the statblock and it had Mind Blast and Psionics listed as special attacks next to Extract, and I didn't bother to look up the specifics.

Bah and humbug at the fact that there is nothing outside of Shapechange that will give me Mind Blast. But then again, I guess I'm still an 8th level caster at that point...

Anyways, that aside, I know of some of the good Aberration forms to wildshape into, but does anyone know of a consolidated list? While it's become very much a flavor over function issue, I do intend to spend most of the adventuring time as an aberrant whenever I can get away with it, so it'd be nice to have a good pack of forms to choose from.
#16
thebigstupidfighter
Jul 29, 2009 11:55:43 dude, I already said, take the Assume Supernatural Ability feat and you get the supernatural abilities of any form you take.
#17
lordaxion
Jul 29, 2009 21:17:21
dude, I already said, take the Assume Supernatural Ability feat and you get the supernatural abilities of any form you take.

It allows me to choose ONE supernatural ability each time I take the feat, not any, and Mind Blast is sadly, a Spell-Like ability, and not covered by the feat.
#18
malkavon
Jul 29, 2009 23:05:01
It allows me to choose ONE supernatural ability each time I take the feat, not any, and Mind Blast is sadly, a Spell-Like ability, and not covered by the feat.

You don't choose the supernatural ability when you choose the feat; you choose it when you assume the form. For example, you could wild shape into a Beholder via Aberrant Wild Shape and assume it's antimagic cone, and then later on you could wild shape into a choker to acquire it's quickness ability.

Edit: Unless I'm just misunderstanding your phrasing, and you mean exactly what I said. In that case, carry on!
#19
cru
Jul 30, 2009 5:04:19
You don't choose the supernatural ability when you choose the feat; you choose it when you assume the form. For example, you could wild shape into a Beholder via Aberrant Wild Shape and assume it's antimagic cone, and then later on you could wild shape into a choker to acquire it's quickness ability.

I would not be so sure about changing the Su on the fly. The feat says: You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect . That's pretty unclear. However, on the next page, section Special: You can take this feat multiple times. (...) Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different special ability. That makes it clear I hope.

Also, from the MoMF Bible:
"If the MoMF takes Able learner and invests some skill points into Bluff and Disguise (skill-cap is cross-class, but they still cost 1/rank) then the Chameleon PrC becomes available for the Druid/MoMF after level 13. The first Chameleon ability that really shines is the second level feat, because you can use that to cherry-pick the feats which grant you different wildshape forms (Frozen Wildshape, ETC) for that day or even taking the Assume Supernatural Ability feat on different abilities from day to day."
#20
lordaxion
Jul 30, 2009 8:07:56 I think I could see the Chameleon build fly if you were crazier about abusing Wild Shape than you were actually playing a Druid and getting a little more milage out of that ability.

By going Druid 5 (or even better, Wildshaping Ranger) 5/MoMF 8/Chameleon 2/MomF10/Chameleon 5 you get to do a lot of odd, esoteric things in a lot of odd, esoteric forms. But you've set your animal companion and Druidic spell progression absolutly on FIRE. I was trying to find some sort of compromise between the two.

EDIT: Also, Alertness and Endurance are the worst feat pre-requisites for a class.... guh.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lordaxion Jul 28, 2009 16:13:51	Hey, I'm back at the character optimization boards for the same thing I was here the first time for - got a new campaign coming up and don't want to suck. I've never played a Druid before and that's what I'm probably going to play. There's another Divine Caster in the group so I'm not concerned about having to pick up the healing role - thus I'm looking at the Wild Shape and figuring that could be a lot of fun - but I'm also wondering if going into a Wildshaping PRC is worth the loss of the Full Caster Levels + Toys, or if Druid20 is the way to go. My current gameplan involves the use of the old Shifter class - ran it by my DM and it seems to be legitimate for me to use as opposed to MoMF. I'm thinking I take the Shifter class to 7 (Abberations) or maybe 8 (Dragons) and then take a two level dip into Chameleon so that I can wake up each morning and choose a different Assume Supernatural Ability feat for that day, then morph into something like a Dragon and breathe death in a huge cone down the street. Not sure, again, if I'm drug-addled for making this, though. The fact that the first two feats have to be Alertness and Endurance bites a lot - two feats I would never, ever take for any other reason. I lose Full Druid casting and pick up some Su abilities, but only one per day, meaning if I want to use it I'll have to stay in that specific form. I'm not looking for utter broken-ness or pure optimization from a mechanics standpoint, as much as I want to be the character that can pull something new out every day and still be effective.
#2 tehlivingdeath Jul 28, 2009 16:36:24	If you're looking into Shifter or MoMF, Wildshape Ranger is a good entry class since you get Endurance for free, have better BAB and losing caster progression isn't that big of a deal. After getting what you want out of Shifter/MoMF, Chameleon, Warshaper and Nature's Warrior are good options. You could also just start with Druid and get more levels after you finish MoMF, but if you're concerned about being a spellcaster, Planar Sheppard is better. If your DM bans it (a lot of them do), go for Druid/MoMF/Druid.
#3 tshern Jul 28, 2009 16:48:07	I'd rather pick up Dragon wild shape and Aberrant wild shape feats myself. The casting you get is way more valuable than the few feats you would have to sacrifice that way. Druid 20 is a perfectly legitimate build for a wild shaper. Druid 19/Monk 1 is another option, but I'd rather use a Monk's belt with a Wilding clasp than lose the caster level for no tangible benefit you cannot receive by spending a few thousand coins.
#4 lordaxion Jul 28, 2009 17:12:29	Edit: Found Dragon Wild Shape in the Draconomicon. If I can get that by my DM you bet I'm taking it. I was going to complain about Abberant Wild Shape being two feats, but it's not Alertness/Endurance at least... But I wouldn't have to go six levels into a prestige class. That's pretty cool.
#5 thebigstupidfighter Jul 28, 2009 20:58:19	Yeah, aberrant wildshape is totally worth the two feats. As for suggestions of what to wildshape into with your lovely new transformative powers, beholder is a very fun option. For ultimate novaing power, however, the Choker is king. Its "Quickness" ability allows you an additional standard or move action each turn, and what does this mean? More novaing power! Obviously, not something to use in every combat, since you'd run out of spells fast, but for your big fights nothing beats it. For a build, I suggest straight Druid with one level of Contemplative. This allows you to add any domain to your spells known. Select the Time domain, giving you access to Time Stop and, as a side benefit, Celerity. This leaves you with full casting and the only ability you lose is Wildshape(huge) which isn't really important since you're using aberrant wildshape in the first place. When to take Contemplative is up to you, either at 17th level to get Time Stop or, if you like, sometime earlier if Celerity is more important to you than the next level of Druid special abilities.
#6 lordaxion Jul 29, 2009 2:28:15	Are there any other feats out there that give access to Wild Shapes of the more odd nature, particularly undead? Since last I heard we couldn't apply random templates to Wild Shape.
#7 tshern Jul 29, 2009 6:35:35	Yeah, aberrant wildshape is totally worth the two feats. As for suggestions of what to wildshape into with your lovely new transformative powers, beholder is a very fun option. For ultimate novaing power, however, the Choker is king. Pretty much agreed. For a build, I suggest straight Druid with one level of Contemplative. This allows you to add any domain to your spells known. Select the Time domain, giving you access to Time Stop and, as a side benefit, Celerity. False. Time domain does not have Celerity as a spell. So far (apart from the domains granting Wish, Limited Wish or Miracle), Spell domain and its Greater Anyspell is the only domain allowing Celerity. At least as far as I know. However, I don't think Time stop is worth that much. When to take Contemplative is up to you, either at 17th level to get Time Stop or, if you like, sometime earlier if Celerity is more important to you than the next level of Druid special abilities. No Celerity there as mentioned. Are there any other feats out there that give access to Wild Shapes of the more odd nature, particularly undead? Since last I heard we couldn't apply random templates to Wild Shape. I do not believe any feat allows undead wild shaping.
#8 lordaxion Jul 29, 2009 7:06:00	Yeah, I found one - but it wanted me to be undead, which isn't happening at first level, I don't think. That's alright - I've tied being an aberration-blooded druid pretty heavily into my RP now, and this is going to be a horrific lot of fun. If only Snatch worked on the tentacles I could get with Deepspawn's feat. Ahhh. alas. At this point I think I'll go pretty much full Druid casting, as I don't think the levels in Chameleon to pick up the changeable bonus feat are worth waiting two more levels to get access to spells, particularly Shapechange at 16. And with Aberrant Wild Shape at six I get to do all sorts of relatively crazy stuff. Assuming I read it right, when I become an Ilithid (at 8th level) for example, I get access to Mind Blast and Extract as Special Attacks... which is already above and beyond what normal characters do. And full Druid casting.
#9 tshern Jul 29, 2009 7:09:02	For heaven's sake, do not take any Chameleon levels. Your current plan looks pretty alright. As said, there are hardly any viable multiclass/PrC options for Druids, at least without grabbing some campaign specific material into play...
#10 cru Jul 29, 2009 7:51:29	Yeah, I found one - but it wanted me to be undead, which isn't happening at first level, I don't think. That's alright - I've tied being an aberration-blooded druid pretty heavily into my RP now, and this is going to be a horrific lot of fun. If only Snatch worked on the tentacles I could get with Deepspawn's feat. Ahhh. alas. At this point I think I'll go pretty much full Druid casting, as I don't think the levels in Chameleon to pick up the changeable bonus feat are worth waiting two more levels to get access to spells, particularly Shapechange at 16. And with Aberrant Wild Shape at six I get to do all sorts of relatively crazy stuff. Assuming I read it right, when I become an Ilithid (at 8th level) for example, I get access to Mind Blast and Extract as Special Attacks... which is already above and beyond what normal characters do. And full Druid casting. * No chameleon please. * Shapechange is a 9th lvl spell, therefore reachable by druid 17. * You don't take aberrant wild shape at six. At level six you take natural spell. * So, at level 9, when you take aberrant wild shape, you can indeed wild shape to Mind Flayer. You don't get Mind Blast, as it is a spell-like ability. You do get Improved Grab and Extract, as there are extraordinary abilities. * Not even Planar Shepherd / MoMF can access aberration SLAs (Shepherd can access the EX, SU, and SLAs of outsiders and elementals) * If you cast enhance wild shape (SpC) before changing, you can access also non-attack extraordinary abilities (in case of mind flayer, SR). * To access Telepathy (supernatural), you would need the Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species. * refer to this overview of what you get with wild shape: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3479.0 * druids rock!
#11 thebigstupidfighter Jul 29, 2009 8:10:19	Funny, I thought the time domain had celerity in it, but more to the point is Time Stop. As far as I'm concerned, its critical to the strategy of any high level caster (although a choker-form druid might get away without it) By the way, I forgot to mentiuon this earlier, but to get mind blast (and everything else that makes Aberrant Wildshape worth having) you also need to pick up Assume Supernatural Ability. That way you can get all the nasty powers of your abberation form. Also, I would suggest the feats that make wildshaping faster, can't remember the names, but one feat reduces the action cost to a move action and the next reduces it to a swift action. With Swift Abberant Supernatural Wildshaping you'll be hard to predict on the battlefield, as one minute you're a beholder and then, POW!, you're an Umber Hulk.
#12 tshern Jul 29, 2009 8:38:59	There is no need for anyone to take Fast Wild Shape and Swift Wild Shape. Ever. Mantle of the beast from Complete Champion gives you the benefits and more for 18 000 gold pieces.
#13 thebigstupidfighter Jul 29, 2009 8:46:32	Thank you. I'll be playing a druid soon and will probably use that at higher levels.
#14 tshern Jul 29, 2009 9:01:45	Thank you. I'll be playing a druid soon and will probably use that at higher levels. It is a... decent item. Have a look at the Ring of the Beast from the same book too.
#15 lordaxion Jul 29, 2009 9:48:39	Sorry, stole a quick look at the statblock and it had Mind Blast and Psionics listed as special attacks next to Extract, and I didn't bother to look up the specifics. Bah and humbug at the fact that there is nothing outside of Shapechange that will give me Mind Blast. But then again, I guess I'm still an 8th level caster at that point... Anyways, that aside, I know of some of the good Aberration forms to wildshape into, but does anyone know of a consolidated list? While it's become very much a flavor over function issue, I do intend to spend most of the adventuring time as an aberrant whenever I can get away with it, so it'd be nice to have a good pack of forms to choose from.
#16 thebigstupidfighter Jul 29, 2009 11:55:43	dude, I already said, take the Assume Supernatural Ability feat and you get the supernatural abilities of any form you take.
#17 lordaxion Jul 29, 2009 21:17:21	dude, I already said, take the Assume Supernatural Ability feat and you get the supernatural abilities of any form you take. It allows me to choose ONE supernatural ability each time I take the feat, not any, and Mind Blast is sadly, a Spell-Like ability, and not covered by the feat.
#18 malkavon Jul 29, 2009 23:05:01	It allows me to choose ONE supernatural ability each time I take the feat, not any, and Mind Blast is sadly, a Spell-Like ability, and not covered by the feat. You don't choose the supernatural ability when you choose the feat; you choose it when you assume the form. For example, you could wild shape into a Beholder via Aberrant Wild Shape and assume it's antimagic cone, and then later on you could wild shape into a choker to acquire it's quickness ability. Edit: Unless I'm just misunderstanding your phrasing, and you mean exactly what I said. In that case, carry on!
#19 cru Jul 30, 2009 5:04:19	You don't choose the supernatural ability when you choose the feat; you choose it when you assume the form. For example, you could wild shape into a Beholder via Aberrant Wild Shape and assume it's antimagic cone, and then later on you could wild shape into a choker to acquire it's quickness ability. I would not be so sure about changing the Su on the fly. The feat says: You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect . That's pretty unclear. However, on the next page, section Special: You can take this feat multiple times. (...) Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different special ability. That makes it clear I hope. Also, from the MoMF Bible: "If the MoMF takes Able learner and invests some skill points into Bluff and Disguise (skill-cap is cross-class, but they still cost 1/rank) then the Chameleon PrC becomes available for the Druid/MoMF after level 13. The first Chameleon ability that really shines is the second level feat, because you can use that to cherry-pick the feats which grant you different wildshape forms (Frozen Wildshape, ETC) for that day or even taking the Assume Supernatural Ability feat on different abilities from day to day."
#20 lordaxion Jul 30, 2009 8:07:56	I think I could see the Chameleon build fly if you were crazier about abusing Wild Shape than you were actually playing a Druid and getting a little more milage out of that ability. By going Druid 5 (or even better, Wildshaping Ranger) 5/MoMF 8/Chameleon 2/MomF10/Chameleon 5 you get to do a lot of odd, esoteric things in a lot of odd, esoteric forms. But you've set your animal companion and Druidic spell progression absolutly on FIRE. I was trying to find some sort of compromise between the two. EDIT: Also, Alertness and Endurance are the worst feat pre-requisites for a class.... guh.