Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 double_eagle Mar 25, 2008 17:10:50	So I'm playing a Druid for the first time, and I think I'm starting to get the hang of it. Against most things, I can put up a damn good fight. Problem is, in our campaign we are moving towards fighting Demons more often that not. I'm never sure how to take on a demon. Most of my usual tactics don't work as well - They usually have high damage reduction (summoned animals are not as effective), they usually will have immunity/resistance to most energy types (making blasting spells a waste), and usually have spell resistance on top of it all. Can anyone help me with tactics? I'm a Druid13/Fighter1 Feats - combat extpertise, improved trip, natural spell, SF(conjuring), augment summoning, exhalted wildshape. Party consists of a Dwarven wizard/psion, Human bard, elven psychic warrior(archer), and a human psychic warrior.
#2 carnivore Mar 25, 2008 17:15:50	Buy a +1 Evil Outsider Bane Cold iron Scimitar or something else like that you can also Summon Elementals...Greater Elementals work Fine for many things :D
#3 tshern Mar 25, 2008 17:23:30	Fleshraker wildshape, maximized Venomfire and Superior magic fang should take care of all your damage needs.
#4 shubniggurath Mar 25, 2008 17:39:20	[...] Can anyone help me with tactics? I'm a Druid13/Fighter1 Feats - combat extpertise, improved trip, natural spell, SF(conjuring), augment summoning, exhalted wildshape. Party consists of a Dwarven wizard/psion, Human bard, elven psychic warrior(archer), and a human psychic warrior. I see some problems here. First of all your build is VERY suboptimal. If you really, really REALLY want to give up a caster level, get a monk level. Druid 14>monk 1/druid 13 >>>>>>>>> druid 13/fighter 1 So my first solution is: ask your DM to change the fighter level into a monk or (better) druid level. Ditch combat expertise and improved trip, get improved unarmed strike (if you get the druid level) or quicken spell if you get the monk level. Do that. Your effectiveness will go up by an order of magnitude. Having done that, your best bet against outsiders is: - grapple: you AND your dire bear (because you DO have a dire bear as animal companion, right? RIGHT?) should be able to grapple them and thus make them almost uneffective. Your companions can beat them to death. - damage: avoid direct damage spells. Do you use the spell compendium? You can easily enchant your natural weapons to be good/evil/silver/magic, as necessary to bypass their DR. - save or die/suck: why not hitting them with no SR spells (no save too, if possible)? Kelpstrand (just level 2!!!) or Spirit Jaws are amazing for that. Druids kick ass against outsiders just as well as they do against anybody else
#5 sinfire_titan Mar 25, 2008 17:54:08	Fleshraker wildshape, maximized Venomfire and Superior magic fang should take care of all your damage needs. Tanar'ri are immune to poison. If you need help with the tactics, I need some info on what kind of Demons you've been fighting. I am an expert at devising strategies for defeating somewhat superior foes (LVL 3 party VS Iron Golem is an easy win for me to conjure) and have a knack for ripping things a new ass to sit on with the right information. I need some detail on what your party looks like (as in what they have done in the past to affect the combat), what your animal companion is (and its feats), and what books you have access to. Then I just need an idea on what kind of demons you've been fighting (is there a theme behind them, or are they all just randomly determined? Are you playing a specific module? And is there a specific Demon Prince who links them all together that has been antagonizing the PCs?) Any information you can give me about the next session you will be having with this party (certain DMs have a habit of warning their players what they will be fighting next session) will allow me to devise a solid strategy for you to use.
#6 moody Mar 25, 2008 18:07:02	Allign Fang(SpC) should take care of it's DR. Plus a big bear and you shouldn't have any problems. Flamestrike does half fire dmg and half divine dmg which gets around the fire resistance.
#7 adslahnit Mar 26, 2008 3:20:17	Tanar'ri are immune to poison. I thought that the extra damage from Venomfire kicks in even when the poison is resisted (by a successful Fortitude save) or ignored (by poison immunity), because it simply adds damage to the creature's natural attacks that carry poison?
#8 sinfire_titan Mar 26, 2008 3:50:49	I thought that the extra damage from Venomfire kicks in even when the poison is resisted (by a successful Fortitude save) or ignored (by poison immunity), because it simply adds damage to the creature's natural attacks that carry poison? I'm unfamiliar with the spell. But if I had the word of the effect itself, I could easily tell you if that is the intent of the effect via the grammar used. Allign Fang(SpC) should take care of it's DR. Plus a big bear and you shouldn't have any problems. Flamestrike does half fire dmg and half divine dmg which gets around the fire resistance. Oddly enough, Tanar'ri are about even on which ones have DR/Cold Iron and which ones have /Good. I am also taking into account sources like FC1, MM3, MM4, and MM5 in this count though.
#9 adslahnit Mar 26, 2008 7:39:54	I'm unfamiliar with the spell. But if I had the word of the effect itself, I could easily tell you if that is the intent of the effect via the grammar used. Make of it what you will: Venomfire Transmutation [Acid] Level: Cleric 3, druid 3, ranger 4 Components: V, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You cause the subject’s venom to become caustic, dealing an additional 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level with each use. This spell has no effect on creatures that do not naturally produce poison. Material Component: A drop of acid.
#10 Midnight_v Mar 26, 2008 8:34:26	Make of it what you will: There was a big debate about this some where and the sage & cust serve said the damage became a poison save and then regardless of the outcome "acid damage" as venomfire turns you venom to a type of acid. At least as I remember...
#11 arteyu Mar 26, 2008 9:07:01	I would think the acid works. The poison acid enters, the Demon saves against the poison since its immune, but takes the acid damage involved.
#12 double_eagle Mar 26, 2008 14:07:12	I just need an idea on what kind of demons you've been fighting (is there a theme behind them, or are they all just randomly determined? Are you playing a specific module? And is there a specific Demon Prince who links them all together that has been antagonizing the PCs?) Well, i'm not too familiar with the different types of demons - But what i have seen are Hezrou (sp?), Balors (haven't fought one yet), i'm pretty sure some Tanar'ri were around at times, and we've seen what i think are called Vrocks (flocks of flying nasties). Also there's a Succubus we deal with sometimes. The head Demon is someone called Orcus (I think from Hoards of the Abyss). The Hezrou are the main generals and probably the ones we've seen most often. I need some detail on what your party looks like (as in what they have done in the past to affect the combat), what your animal companion is (and its feats), and what books you have access to. Then Any information you can give me about the next session you will be having with this party (certain DMs have a habit of warning their players what they will be fighting next session) will allow me to devise a solid strategy for you to use. The party tactics - We have a Bard who usually just uses party buffing effects (some pretty powerful ones too), or uses fascinate/suggestion. Our archer deals quite a bit of damage usually, with Psionic buffs and weapon enchantments (these are cut down quite a bit by demons' energy resistance, though). The Wizard/Psion alot of times ends up carrying the party (summoning constructs and high damage spells). My animal companion is a Dire Hawk, and is not usually in combat. (you'll all probably say i'm a fool). He is usually used for things like scouting and more than once he saved my life by carrying me to safety when I was stunned/unconsious. Books - I have access to the Complete series, mainly. Also the BoED, and MMI-V. No clues about next games encounters unfortunately.
#13 sinfire_titan Mar 26, 2008 15:19:44	Make of it what you will: Wow. Maybe it is time for me to get Serpent Kingdoms after all. That spell is retarded. You cause the subject’s venom to become caustic, dealing an additional 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level with each use. This spell has no effect on creatures that do not naturally produce poison. By that wording, both the Sage and CustServ are wrong. It triggers any time they are required to make a Fort save against the poison, as that is when the poison is being used. Tanar'ri have Acid resistance though, so it does cut about 2d6 off of the spell, but at your level it won't matter at all. I can see a DM ruling against it damaging if they make the save against the poison, as that does make this spell more understandable. But that is purely a house ruling on the spell. Well, i'm not too familiar with the different types of demons - But what i have seen are Hezrou (sp?), Balors (haven't fought one yet), i'm pretty sure some Tanar'ri were around at times, and we've seen what i think are called Vrocks (flocks of flying nasties). Also there's a Succubus we deal with sometimes. The head Demon is someone called Orcus (I think from Hoards of the Abyss). The Hezrou are the main generals and probably the ones we've seen most often. Demon Prince of Undeath, huh? I'm wondering what you did to tick him off. Still, I digress. Orcus has several major weaknesses, all of which can be exploited with relative ease. The original printing of Orcus that is 3.5 compatible was in the BoVD, which I do not have on me at the time being. But when I get home I can do a full synopsis of what he is capable of, and what his common minions can do. The first thing you want to do is contact the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia. Planar Ally a Lantern Archon, and have it deliver a message to the ones in charge there. Let them know you have made yourselves an enemy to Orcus, and that the Prince of Undeath is actively trying to kill you. They can offer some assistance with the situation, be it items, refuge, or even allies in the fights. The key goal is surviving, so don't worry if the DM cuts XP for any battles the Archons help you with, as it means you will be able to continue adventuring. But the most effective strategy is to do some reconnaissance on him, find some valuable and exploitable weakness, and tell it to both Demogorgon and Graz'zt. They are his chief enemies in the Abyss, the three have been at war for eons. Give them an edge in the war, and Orcus will be heavily distracted by his rivals and ignore the Material Plane for the time being. Demogorgon is actually very difficult to get to. He is psychotic by every definition of the word. Planar Binding or Planar Ally can be used to call an Aspect of his, and with which you will be able to arrange a meeting with a representative of his to make the exchange. Graz'zt is far easier to get a hold of. He has an alliance with Asmodeus, the lord of the Nine Hells, and you can just summon the Aspect of the Ninth Lord to get a message to him. Tell him that you wish to arrange a meeting with him and Graz'zt, and say you want to deal with a chief enemy of the Lower Planes, Orcus. Asmodeus will be satisfied by removing one of the two people who stand in his way of total dominion of the Lower Planes, and Graz'zt will have a new layer of the Abyss to call his own, which will make the Six Fingered Lord happy beyond all measure. Through these two, you can easily tip the scales of the Blood War in the favor of the Nine Hells, which means less demonic intrusions for the Material Plane, which means you will be safe for a while. As to fighting Orcus himself, be very cautious with it. His wand is devastatingly powerful to any living creature, and can put most enemies out of commission with a single strike. Summoned monsters will work best against it, as they can hold him off for some time. Dimension Anchor him to prevent him from teleporting past them. Anticipate Teleportation (Greater) will give you guys time to prepare for him trying to move around the battlefield with his SLAs, so if Dimension Anchor fails, that is the next best option. The party tactics - We have a Bard who usually just uses party buffing effects (some pretty powerful ones too), or uses fascinate/suggestion. Our archer deals quite a bit of damage usually, with Psionic buffs and weapon enchantments (these are cut down quite a bit by demons' energy resistance, though). The Wizard/Psion alot of times ends up carrying the party (summoning constructs and high damage spells). My animal companion is a Dire Hawk, and is not usually in combat. (you'll all probably say i'm a fool). He is usually used for things like scouting and more than once he saved my life by carrying me to safety when I was stunned/unconsious. Books - I have access to the Complete series, mainly. Also the BoED, and MMI-V. No clues about next games encounters unfortunately. Step 1: Get rid of the Hawk. You want a Dire Bear at your level. Step 2: Get more books. Or borrow some from your friends. You need the Spell Compendium, and Complete Champion/Races of the Wild/Faiths of Eberron. Any of those three books will tip the scales in your favor. Lastly, you will be needing a stronger ally. Show the Bard Words of Creation+Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) and tell him that this will increase the party's damage output. The archer is going to need Cold Iron and Good-aligned arrows/bow, so grab him one. The Wizard/Psion is probably the weakest in your party (I assume Cerebremancer, so he will be far behind what kind of God he is supposed to be). Show him to these boards, and we will upgrade his combat capabilities to what they need to be to fight a Demon Prince. Direct Damage is a poor tactic against Demons of any kind. Balors, Nafalshnee, and Vrocs can all withstand considerable damage before they just teleport out. Lock them into place. Give them nowhere to run via Web, Dimension Lock, and focus on status effects. Use spells like Glitterdust, Ray of Enfeeblement, and other debuffs to cripple their abilities. Then it comes to you. Wild Shape into a Triceratops/Dire Bear, and move in to deliver the kill. Have the archer pull disruption duties by readying his shot to when the Demon tries to use an SLA. You want to avoid them summoning others, so this tactic will prevent them from getting it off with any amount of ease. When I get home, I will give an appropriate list of buffs and debuffs for your party to use.