Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 j2.504 Apr 21, 2010 17:10:49	Is there a Theurge type build that works with Cleric and Druid (or two divine classes), or some other prestige class that makes use of Cleric and Druid combined? I have various builds that could make use of this.  (Particularly environmentally specialized Druid type builds like water druid, or earth/stone druid, storm druid, fire druid, etc.). I seem to recall some sort of recommended adaptation on one of the prc's that may do this, but I could be remembering incorrectly.  (In other words, by recommended adaptation, it was a prestige class that combined arcane with divine, but had a suggested adaptation that could allow for divine/divine progression). This is a general question, but I'd use it mostly like this: Druid casting must Cleric casting if possible Cleric Elemental turning/rebuking through domain or other method Cleric Domains Energy substitution Elemental Wildshape Elemental or enviromental companion Race appropriate to environment (such as air raptoran for storm druid) Devotion or Reserve feats based on environment (such as Earth Devotion) Any other suggestions for prc's that fit the bill are welcome.
#2 Balthanon Apr 22, 2010 21:59:22	Nothing official that I'm aware of, even in recommendations.  You could adapt the ultimate magus progression for a divine/divine mix, maybe tossing in some of the flavor from geomancer.  (Though not many of the higher level drifts.) For the turning/rebuking, in all likelihood you aren't going to be able to progress that and two types of spellcasting.  Rebuking is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, truthfully, particularly with some of the boosts it can get from items and feats. If you're just looking for some type of rebuking/turning on a druid, you could look at the Plant Control and Plant Defiance feats out of Masters of the Wild-- it's 3.0, but together, they actually grant you turn/rebuke for plants.  If you pick up a prestige class that grants you an elemental domain after that (i.e. any domain), you might be able to use that as a basis for druid turning/rebuking of elementals. For your other abilities: Druid casting must (Druid or spirit shaman is a must then.  If you want wild shaping like you mention below, you're going to need druid and probably a fair chunk of it.) Cleric casting if possible (probably not possible) Cleric Elemental turning/rebuking through domain or other method (see description above or prestige clssses below) Cleric Domains (prestige class-- try contemplative, sovereign speaker, wavekeeper, earthshaker [DR 314], or divine disciple) Energy substitution (simple feat, shouldn't be difficult) Elemental Wildshape (requires either druid 16 or one of a very few other prestige classes) Elemental or enviromental companion (might be a feat for this, to replace the animal companion, not sure off hand though) Race appropriate to environment (none of the feats or prestige classes I've listed should have an issue with this) Devotion or Reserve feats based on environment (Devotion feats don't actually require turning generally, so you should be good with this unless you want more uses.) You could also check out the Wizards.com spell bone talisman for undead turning.
#3 j2.504 Apr 23, 2010 16:37:22	Thanks for the detailed post Balthanon.  That will definitely help. I tend to avoid rebuilding prc's, unless there's a specific adaptation recommended (so rebuilding Ultimate Magus would be kind of a last ditch resort). To further flesh out my needs... If the Druid/Cleric theurge is not possible, then the next best thing is a Druid who can turn (control) elementals and use turn attempts to power some feats.  Cleric casting is the least important part of the build.  Domains may or may not be a crucial part of the build.  Rebuke/Controlling elementals is fairly important.  Elemental Wild shape and Elemental companion are of lesser importance, but fit nice with the flavor. Another alternative I've considered as part of the build is Shugenja (spelling), or Wu Jen who have environmentally flavored casting; however, as a general rule of thumb I typically don't like using limited spell list classes (mostly because their spell lists aren't updated when new books come out).  There are exceptions of course (such as Dread Necro, Beguiler, etc.).  I would consider those limited list classes in a theurge type build, however, if it were feasible like a Druid/Wu Jen/Arcane Hierophant or something. Any other feat/prc/class/domains and combos recommendations are welcome - geared toward the limited elemental/environmental druid build.  I know there's some other Elemental/Environmental based caster prc's, but any recommendations are appreciated.  Elemental Savant comes to mind, but I haven't checked it's abilities recently.
#4 Balthanon Apr 25, 2010 22:24:50	Elemental savant is arcane, so it wouldn't really be appropriate here.  You might be best off just grabbing a couple prestige classes that grant domains-- those are really the only way to gain turning/rebuking of elementals.  The only real question in this case is how your level is interpreted for the purpose of using the domain power.  As far as I know, there isn't anything set in stone, which is why I recommended the plant feats.  This one is really a question for your DM, since he needs to rule on it. The Earthshaker class I mentioned picks up the Earth domain at 1st level, and 3rd is another good breaking point, since they pick up Tremorsense 10'.  Earthshaker 1/Sovereign Speaker 3 would give you 4 domains, though if you're actually using the Sovereign Host as the pantheon, they don't have access to Water.  Most classes are going to impact your wild shaping though.  If you're considering Wu Jen, arcane hierophant would work to keep most areas of your build high.  An interesting possibility with arcane hierophant might be combining some of the feats that let you turn your familiar into an elemental with the animal companion/familiar combination that class allows.  Another possibility would be Planar Shepherd-- while it's generally considered broken, it shouldn't be quite as bad if you take an elemental plane as your chosen plane. The other question related to this is whether you are planning on specializing in one element or if you want to be able to do all four at once.  (Or turn and rebuke a populace as you choose.)
#5 malkavon Apr 25, 2010 23:17:52	There's always the variant in Unearthed Arcana which gives Druids a single domain from the following list: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Sun, Travel, or Water. I'm AFB, so I can't give you a page quote, and the SRD doesn't contain the rule for some reason. I do know it's there, though, around the section dealing with Aspect of Nature Druids I believe.
#6 j2.504 Apr 26, 2010 15:30:34	Thanks for the info - there's definitely some things I will be looking into more thoroughly, and some I will definitely use (such as the domains gained through divine prc, rather than cleric). To Balthanon (and whoever else is reading): To answer the last question you posted... In this scenario, the goal is to have one type of environment/element specialized by a given character.  That may or may not mean that they are prohibited or weakened in other areas, but definitely primarily geared in one direction.  They would not be equal in multiple (unrelated) environment/elements (in other words, they couldn't switch out from fire to water to earth).  It may happen that they may have that capability (because that's the best way to build the specialist aspect), but that's not the goal or even wanted.  Some of these casters (by nature) may be specialized in more than one related environment/element, but not generic across the board. Additionally, for summoning/rebuking I'm not 100% set just on Elementals.  However Elementals, and/or creatures of a specific type/subtype would be of interest.  For example, it would be appropriate for an ocean druid to be able to control and/or summon ocean creatures and/or water elementals. I'm not against using Arcane in the build, even in place of Druid or divine, but Druid seems the best place to start in most cases.  Mystic Theurge and/or Arcane Heirophant are definite possibilities depending on the character - particularly if I use Sorcerer or Wu Jen (to limit the spellcasting by flavor on the Arcane side).  The fire/lava character and frost/ice/snow characters would be the most likely candidates. The overall goal is to come up with a generic base "foundation" build, for various specialist "druid" types, that can be used across different characters, that is relatively playable at all levels.  Truthfully, Druid doesn't need to be a part of the build, but that seems the most obvious place to start in almost all cases.  Shujenja (spelling?) is very much flavored correctly, but a bit too limited (spells/abilities) for what I'm going for by itself. I'm not against mixing in a bit of non casting prc for flavor, if the ability/flavors are excellent for a particular build (I'm not asking that here right now), but primarily these will be a full casters.  The mountain build, for example may benefit highly by giving up a caster level or two to gain mountain survivability features (though it would be best to keep the full casting progression and gain some mountain ranger/druid avenger type abilities on the side). Here's generally what I'll be working on.  I'll use the term specialist in place of druid, but the intent is the same (full spell casting and specialized nature powers being the base).  I'm envisioning this:  If I had a diety of a given specialization that started (and played) from 1st level up, how would I build the character.  I'm not asking for the full builds here, obviously, but any brainstorming general ideas (like the one's you guys already mentioned) are very helpful in establishing a foundation and framework to work with across most of these builds: Fire/Lava specialist Water/Ocean specialist Storm specialist (water sub specialist) (would include flight in stormy weather/lightning/thunder/wind abilities) Ice/frost/snow specialist Underground/earth specialist (Earth Dreamer would be a likely part of this build). Plant specialist Animal specialist Mountain specialist (earth/survivability/climb/storm) Desert/Sand specialist Jungle specialist maybe etc. Obviously, these cannot all use the same base build model.  But many of them pretty much would, then I'll tack in the specialized prc's/feats/domains/ACF's to flesh each out individually, after I've established a solid generic foundation for the builds. For the record all published WoTC 3.0 or 3.5 material is good, with the following exceptions: I don't have/use dragon mag generally, no ToB, no Psionics, no Bo9S, not much campaign specific except Eberron Campaign Setting (not because it's not allowed, but because I don't plan on owning it, unless it is a generally useful book in many areas such as the ECS), no 3rd party.  I will pull occasional pieces of material from these other sources (not 3rd party), but I generally don't add a new mechanical system from the mentioned books.  Greater Manyshot for example is in a Psionic book, but is a generalist feat not requiring psionics to use.  I own pretty much all the other 3.0/3.5 books. ################# To put this into perspective, I've created/continue to create a lot of specialist type characters that have one general direction that they play in from 1st level up.  Some are more specialized than others, but I generally try not to box them into a weak spell list/class features if possible.  The goal for these others is the same: If you were to build a diety who specializes in a particular area, starting at level 1 up, how would the build go.  The difference here, is I'm actually using some of these to populate the areas where dieties would normally hold power in an otherwise dietyless campaign, over different time periods.  Some are pc's, some are retired pc's, some are npc's.  Here's a few I've done, or am working on beyond the one's already mentioned: -We Jas type:  Neutralish with slight evil tint written spell completist who sub specializes in undead.  As many spells available as possible.  Archivist/Tainted -Scholar/Wiz theurges. -Pure Neutral Necro Army guy who sub specializes in healing with negative AND positive energy - "master" of life, death, and undeath : Dread Necro/Cleric/theurges -Magical Survival/travel/get into & out of places "ranger bow" build:  Hodgepodge of classes/prc's used here.  Unseen Seer/Arcane trickster direction primarily. -Magical Face/Thieves guild head/sneak type (Similar to a Beguiler, different build, unseen seer again). -Relatively low casting Treasure hunter (uses Earth Dreamer, others). -Ultimate Magus evil type -Gnome Illusionist/shadowcraft mage type -Giant hunter -Dragon Slayer -Swamp Witch/fear specialist etc. Obviously these builds are not all powerful (such as the positive/negative energy healer), but try to be as powerful as possible within their stated goals.  I'll always sacrafice some power for stronger flavor, but still try to keep them playable 1-20+.
#7 j2.504 Apr 26, 2010 17:27:18	There's always the variant in Unearthed Arcana which gives Druids a single domain from the following list: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Sun, Travel, or Water. I'm AFB, so I can't give you a page quote, and the SRD doesn't contain the rule for some reason. I do know it's there, though, around the section dealing with Aspect of Nature Druids I believe. That would be right up my ally, and something I completely don't recall reading (which is why I posted here).  I'll look closer at this.  Thanks for the pointer.