Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 maeglin_dubh Mar 25, 2008 23:51:09	I tried looking through the Barbarian and Druid handbooks for pointers, but I'm coming up short. Starting at level one, as a gnome or halfling only (campaign requirements) with the stat spread.... d6 Results: 2, 5, 2 (Total = 9) d6 Results: 2, 2, 4 (Total = 8) d6 Results: 4, 2, 2 (Total = 8) d6 Results: 4, 6, 5 (Total = 15) d6 Results: 5, 3, 2 (Total = 10) d6 Results: 2, 2, 6 (Total = 10) Yes, it made me cry, but the GM has promised compensation for sucky rolls and forbade rerolls, so I've got to roll with it. Right now I'm going with a Gnome and plunking one of those 10's in Con, with the 15 in Wis. The rest are iffy. I have the other 10 in Dex right now, for AC purposes. Restrictions are PHB, UA SRD, and Sandstorm.
#2 x-codes Mar 26, 2008 0:51:46	The DMG itself allows for rerolls in this situation. If your DM overrules that then don't go Druidic Avenger, go standard Druid. Whatever these "compensations" are, they better be pretty impressive to justify an 11 PB character, especially in a rolled environment where other players might have rolled exceptionally well. Theres also the issue of the DM giving out imbalanced rewards and somehow justifying it both story-wise ("Oh, the nigh-helpless wuss gets two shares of treasure.") and to the other players ("He rolled so bad that he normally would have gotten more rerolls, but I just gave him more treasure instead.").
#3 22_Over_7 Mar 26, 2008 0:57:34	Indeed, the DMG requires you to reroll when the sum of your ability bonuses is less than +1 - you are -1.
#4 andyjames Mar 26, 2008 1:10:18	Even the DMG admits that ability scores like those are unplayable. In a situation like that, I'd have told the DM, "OK. No rerolls. I can accept that. You know what? I just recalled that I have to do something. I'll see you next time, eh?" and walk out, never to return.
#5 maeglin_dubh Mar 26, 2008 1:12:44	Well, I guess it's a little late at this point. I'll know by Friday if the character's even in the game. He said the compensation may include spelltouched feats, wilder powers, and possibly other traits. He also waived the racial strength penalty, based on my sucky roll and the backstory, also the role of the character as a wildshaping berserker. So I guess I'll just make of it what I can. For my bonus starting feat, is Extra Rage going to be worth it? EDIT: I'll clarify... it's a PBP, based on your character being a halfling or gnome slave escaped from hobgoblin masters. With the character as currently conceived, he may wind up doing something suicidal so I can reroll a whole new character, which doesn't bother me. This is all fairly casual. I was just wondering if there were specific feats or tactics I should be on the lookout for. There's another guy who got stuck with a 15 point buy, so I'm not the only one in bad shape.
#6 andyjames Mar 26, 2008 1:18:01	It is never too late to walk out. The gods know that I have walked out on a few campaigns that have been going for a few sessions, and a couple which has been going on for the better part of two years.
#7 maeglin_dubh Mar 26, 2008 1:19:27	It hasn't even started yet. But at the rate my local group does games (very rarely, and no-one but me is running anything 3.5 in the next year or so) I'm willing to try.
#8 andyjames Mar 26, 2008 1:28:16	Which part of the world are you in?
#9 grundle Mar 26, 2008 1:50:11	It is never too late to walk out. The gods know that I have walked out on a few campaigns that have been going for a few sessions, and a couple which has been going on for the better part of two years. Last week, my brother decided he wasn't digging the campaign we are both in, so he said "Excuse me guys, I really gotta take this call, ill be right back." After about an hour, one guy looks at me and says, "Dude, where's your brother?" I was like, "He's at home." Hes like, "WTF?" and I'm like, "He's the only person I know who refuses to buy a cell phone." The funniest part about this is that the rest of the players in the group are fully aware that he doesn't have one, but his bluff was so good they didn't even think about it.
#10 Dictum_Mortuum Mar 26, 2008 9:41:49	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=946947 this can probably help :P
#11 andyjames Mar 26, 2008 14:39:14	So can this: http://www.chinatraderonline.com/Files/Household/Furniture/Children-Furniture/Plastic-Folding-Chair-22532092240.jpg To the OP: Seriously, this DM has issues. First, he insist on stupidly low stats that the *creators* of the game recommend should not exist. Then, the says he'll compensate you in-game for it. Does he even know what the heck he is doing? That is just wrong on so many levels: - He is trying to compensate an out-of-game decision with in-game incentives. Keep out-of-game stuff out of the game, please. That is why it is called out-of-game. - He is giving perceptible lopsided advantages to one player over others. That will cause resentment like you won't believe. This is one of the basic principles of management "don't show favouritism or even *appear* to show favouritism". He failed the second criteria off the bat. That makes for a bad DM. I'll withhold judgement on the first criteria. I strongly suggest that you walk away from this one because I forsee nothing but grief and resentment down the road.
#12 archerpwr Mar 26, 2008 14:51:14	15 wisdom? That's playable. Just ask the DM if he'll let you bump up to elite array. 10 con hurts though. Druids don't need high stats to be playable. Avenger isn't a good mechanical choice though. If you die, you die. Low stats are no reason walk away from a game. Roleplay time>stats.
#13 x-codes Mar 26, 2008 17:03:52	If you die, you die. Low stats are no reason walk away from a game. Roleplay time>stats. It's not the low stats that are of concern, it's the thought of what might happen if the DM goes too far with his compensation or the other players get miffed at his favortisim towards one player. Also, your standard druid could function and contribute with this stat array. Druidic Avengers? Not so much.
#14 archerpwr Mar 26, 2008 17:06:40	It's not the low stats that are of concern, it's the thought of what might happen if the DM goes too far with his compensation or the other players get miffed at his favortisim towards one player. Also, your standard druid could function and contribute with this stat array. Druidic Avengers? Not so much. Agreed on all points.
#15 maeglin_dubh Mar 26, 2008 19:34:12	Alright, thanks very much. I'll probably wind up either walking away or tanking the character for a reroll. I still like the idea of a shapeshifter who can berserk, though, so would the following roll be any better for a Druidic Avenger (in a different game entirely). d6 Results: 2, 5, 6 (Total = 13) d6 Results: 6, 6, 6 (Total = 18) d6 Results: 5, 3, 5 (Total = 13) d6 Results: 3, 2, 5 (Total = 10) d6 Results: 6, 5, 6 (Total = 17) d6 Results: 6, 4, 6 (Total = 16) EDIT: I'm thinking of taking one or two feats to augment the Rage, then finally getting Master of Many Forms, spreading the Rage throughout all those fun extra forms.
#16 x-codes Mar 26, 2008 21:30:16	That's obviously a better setup. 16 Str, 13 Dex, 17 Con, 13 Int, 18 Wis, 10 Cha before Gnome adjustments (which isn't a terrible Race idea).
#17 maeglin_dubh Mar 26, 2008 22:15:51	It seems he's a little meh until level 5, when he starts shifting into things that can eat your face. Is Extra Rage at level 1 good? Not sure what to do at 3 or 6... Is it good to go into Master of Many Forms as early as possible?
#18 andyjames Mar 26, 2008 22:28:37	How about a Wildshape variant Ranger going into MoMF at 6th? Full BAB, free Endurance, extra speed, Wildshape. You can RP your character going berserk instead of getting a mechanical advantage out of it. That way, you are still useful from 1-5, at least not less useful than a low level Ranger.
#19 maeglin_dubh Mar 26, 2008 23:07:29	Well, the original idea was to berserk while in animal form. The only thing scarier than a Fleshraker is a berserking Fleshraker. But the better BAB would be good, because it transfers into the other forms, doesn't it?
#20 x-codes Mar 26, 2008 23:19:31	It seems he's a little meh until level 5, when he starts shifting into things that can eat your face. Is Extra Rage at level 1 good? Not sure what to do at 3 or 6... Is it good to go into Master of Many Forms as early as possible? I don't think you can take Extra Rage at level 1, although I may be thinking about one of the other "Extra" feats. I don't think Master of Many Forms is amazing, personally. It really hasn't gotten any better since it came out, meaning it's still only worth 7 levels for inheriting Ex Special Qualities, and whether or not that's better than 7 levels of druid casting is highly questionable. Also, at first level you have a +5 hit for 1d6+6 damage (assuming Longspear) while raging and can cast Druid spells on top of that. It's not great by CO standards, but it's better than what a lot of other characters can do at this level.
#21 andyjames Mar 26, 2008 23:50:00	Well, the original idea was to berserk while in animal form. The only thing scarier than a Fleshraker is a berserking Fleshraker. But the better BAB would be good, because it transfers into the other forms, doesn't it? Yes it does. It also adds to power attacking, grappling and other fun stuff.
#22 x-codes Mar 26, 2008 23:53:07	Yes it does. It also adds to power attacking, grappling and other fun stuff. Druids have enough BAB to Power Attack effectively while Wild Shaped, and Rangers don't get Druid spellcasting.
#23 archerpwr Mar 26, 2008 23:58:19	Druids have enough BAB to Power Attack effectively while Wild Shaped, and Rangers don't get Druid spellcasting. Neither do MoMFs.
#24 x-codes Mar 27, 2008 0:04:14	Neither do MoMFs. Like I said, I don't like MoMF. If the OP wants MoMF, then by all means go with Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Warshaper 4/Nature's Warrior 4 (or something like that).
#25 andyjames Mar 27, 2008 0:10:56	Well, if he can, he can take the Divine Minion template to get Wildshape, and get into MoMF at level 2 (assuming he is Human, that is)...
#26 maeglin_dubh Mar 27, 2008 0:15:32	So, MoMF is bad because of the loss of spellcasting, or the lackluster shaping effects?
#27 archerpwr Mar 27, 2008 0:18:23	So, MoMF is bad because of the loss of spellcasting, or the lackluster shaping effects? Casting, Animal Companion, Prereqs, Polymorph.
#28 maeglin_dubh Mar 27, 2008 0:34:30	Druidic Avenger doesn't have the Animal Companion to worry about, but the rest look like things I may want to keep. So would straight Druidic Avenger be better? I think the normal Wild Shape is good enough... For optimal purposes... One of these days I'll try a MoMF just for the variety of forms, but optimally, I think Druidic Avenger 20 is a better choice.
#29 archerpwr Mar 27, 2008 0:51:21	Druidic Avenger doesn't have the Animal Companion to worry about, but the rest look like things I may want to keep. So would straight Druidic Avenger be better? I think the normal Wild Shape is good enough... For optimal purposes... One of these days I'll try a MoMF just for the variety of forms, but optimally, I think Druidic Avenger 20 is a better choice. And better yet is druid 20. Rage stops your casting, making you worse of a druid in the CO sense of the word.
#30 x-codes Mar 27, 2008 0:56:14	Druidic Avenger doesn't have the Animal Companion to worry about, but the rest look like things I may want to keep. So would straight Druidic Avenger be better? I think the normal Wild Shape is good enough... For optimal purposes... One of these days I'll try a MoMF just for the variety of forms, but optimally, I think Druidic Avenger 20 is a better choice. It is, and really, most anything a MoMF can give you can also be given by an animal. Apes get Rend, Bears get Improved Grab, Cats get Pounce, there are even a few forms later on that get Swallow Whole.
#31 maeglin_dubh Mar 27, 2008 1:05:57	And better yet is druid 20. Rage stops your casting, making you worse of a druid in the CO sense of the word. But can't you Wild Shape into something awesome, and then rage? That's the idea I originally had, and I also like the DA flavor over straight Druid, but I could go either way.
#32 archerpwr Mar 27, 2008 1:09:42	But can't you Wild Shape into something awesome, and then rage? That's the idea I originally had, and I also like the DA flavor over straight Druid, but I could go either way. Well, at least Natural Spell wouldn't be worth taking.
#33 x-codes Mar 27, 2008 1:14:02	And better yet is druid 20. Rage stops your casting, making you worse of a druid in the CO sense of the word. I got into a long-winded argument with Shaka over a similar topic, when he was praising the Barbarian 1/Cleric 19. I have to say, when you get the Barbarian dip basically for free, theres no reason to not do it. Take Tireless from the PGtF at level 1, Power Attack at 3, and Natural Spell at 6. You can now enter and leave your rage when needed without repercussions and cast spells inbetween.
#34 archerpwr Mar 27, 2008 1:17:47	I got into a long-winded argument with Shaka over a similar topic, when he was praising the Barbarian 1/Cleric 19. I have to say, when you get the Barbarian dip basically for free, theres no reason to not do it. Take Tireless from the PGtF at level 1, Power Attack at 3, and Natural Spell at 6. You can now enter and leave your rage when needed without repercussions and cast spells inbetween. Which is contrary to the logic that says Natural Spell is good.
#35 maeglin_dubh Mar 27, 2008 1:24:24	I got into a long-winded argument with Shaka over a similar topic, when he was praising the Barbarian 1/Cleric 19. I have to say, when you get the Barbarian dip basically for free, theres no reason to not do it. Take Tireless from the PGtF at level 1, Power Attack at 3, and Natural Spell at 6. You can now enter and leave your rage when needed without repercussions and cast spells inbetween. And if I'm Human or Strongheart, I can also take Extra Rage at 1st level, which would give me plenty of uses throughout the day.
#36 x-codes Mar 27, 2008 2:11:35	Which is contrary to the logic that says Natural Spell is good. Starting or ending a Rage is a free action, and Druids do, at some point in time, make attacks. Therefore, when you make your attacks you can rage. If you need to cast a spell the next round then drop your rage and cast it. Tireless keeps you from getting fatigued from this tactic. It's not contrary to the logic that Natural Spell is good, it's the same kind of logic that says that Wild Shape is good despite the temporary loss of spellcasting.
#37 dirkformica Mar 27, 2008 6:05:26	On the MoMF front, I have to say, imo, that 2 or maybe 3 levels can be beneficial in a full Druid build that wants to focus on melee. The Troll forms from Monster Manual 3 are pretty nice melee beasts when combined with Enhanced Wildshape from Spell Compendium. You don't really need to lose all those caster levels to get the 7th level extraordinary qualities and shapes from MoMF since the spell gives them to you all day. Druid 17 or 18 with MoMF 2 or 3 costs you a few lame feats, but does give you shifter speech (which can be very good in some campaigns,) giant and possibly monstrous humanoid shapes (for Cave/War/Mountain Troll forms,) and potentially Swift Wildshape which can be useful as well. You still also get the much superior Shapeshift spell as well. To me it seems that a nice giant form along with the higher level Bite of the xxx (Spell Compendium) work exceedingly well together especially when you tack on all the special qualities via Enhance Wildshape. When I was experimenting with Druid builds and Enhance Wildshape I didn't find as many Animal or Plant forms with exciting special qualities like regeneration, damage reduction, or spell resistance. Plant immunities are nice however so if you want to use lots of plant forms, pure Druid is probably better. For the Avenger, cast all your buffs, rage and pounce into combat. Cave Troll is pretty great for that with large size, Str 29, Dex 13, Con 27, +11 natural armor, Dazing blow, improved grab, pounce, rake, rend 4d6+13, Darkvision 90 ft., fast healing 8, low-light vision, scent, and is even better with a Bite of the Werebear for an additional +16 enhancement bonus to Strength, a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, a +8 enhancement bonus to Constitution, a +7 enhancement bonus to natural armor, as well as blind fight and power attack. It's also a tool user who can wear armor and use humanoid equipment which can be quite nice.
#38 straw_man Mar 27, 2008 8:53:43	Can you get Whispergnome? It's found in RoS and since your Cha isn't a huge thing, you could afford to take a penalty to it and gain a bonus to Dex in addition to the standard gnome benefits.