Dual Flame Blade Help Needed - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 feloniousela Jun 09, 2009 16:06:45	Hey guys, I'm just looking for some more options than my tired brain can come up with. I need a CR 10 "bad guy" who is all about stealth and killing quickly out of nowhere and then disappearing again. I want him to dual wield flame blades via UMD and stack on SA damage while having a fairly reasonable chance to hit with all/most of his attacks. So far I have: Halfling Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 5 Scores are TBD but will be nice without being overpowering. Equipment is flexible, but it will be an NPC, so nothing real expensive. Few questions: 1. Can you finesse with Flame Blades or does it have to be based off your Str on the attack roll? 2. Can you get Weapon Focus with Flame Blade? 3. Is it treated as a light off hand weapon? Not allowed (easier to list than what is allowed): ToB, Psionics, Setting Specific stuff, Dragon material, Official Internet stuff is case by case. Thanks a lot in advance, guys and gals.
#2 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 16:26:31	1. It says it's wielded "As a scimitar" so you could dip a level of Dirvish to be on the sure side. 2. It says it's wielded "As a scimitar" so weapon focus scimitar should apply. (And lookie here, weapon focus: Slashing weapon, is a prereq for Dirvish) 3. I've already mentioned this lol, as far as I can tell it's treated as a one-handed weapon normally. Also you'll want the double-wand wielder feat so you can activate them both at once. (If money isn't an issue make them quickenned wands of flameblade so he can trigger them and still get an attack. Badguys can be so much easier than PC's lol.) Edit: Looking back, I think you meant a "bad guy" PC, in which case the only way to reliably get quicken would be to have an artificer who could build it in for free, or maybe UMD a metamagic wand grip into thinking you had the quicken spell feat.
#3 feloniousela Jun 09, 2009 16:50:23	Wow...don't know how I missed that line in the spell description. Thank you. It's actually going to be a rather ruthless NPC. At least, I'm hoping he turns out as ruthless as I want him to be. Hmm... Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 5/Dervish 1 is only CR 11...and significantly better. Any more thoughts?
#4 Senevri Jun 09, 2009 16:57:05	metamagic spell trigger + y'know, metamagics, will up damage output quite a bit. Have you done a comparison vs. Ranger and Fighter levels? Do you wish to use ToB? Touch attacks would allow for significant level of power attacking. Check out Lightsabers from my signature, it has some trickery for flame blades, although it's more focused on maxing out damage than anything else. *edit: Can you add Dark template? I think this is one of the rare chances to properly use HiPS. (also, Shadowdancer)
#5 feloniousela Jun 09, 2009 17:13:19	metamagic spell trigger + y'know, metamagics, will up damage output quite a bit. Have you done a comparison vs. Ranger and Fighter levels? Do you wish to use ToB? Touch attacks would allow for significant level of power attacking. Check out Lightsabers from my signature, it has some trickery for flame blades, although it's more focused on maxing out damage than anything else. *edit: Can you add Dark template? I think this is one of the rare chances to properly use HiPS. (also, Shadowdancer) I'm not really looking to max out totally (That will just outright kill my players), plus it will add to what the NPC actually needs in order to work. I would rather he be fairly independent, and not require tons of money. Ranger and Swashbuckler are on my list to think about. Getting a level of Swash in there along with a level in Dervish lets me Finesse the Flame Blade easily, which will reduce MAD and let me focus on Dex and Int. Ranger would get me one feat as compared to Fighter, but would also net me Track, which is cool for a NPC assassin to have. No ToB in this game. Also I'm ruling (since I am the DM and I see it as logical) that any attacks that specifically state you cannot apply your strength damage are not Power Attack-able. As for maxing out damage, I'm more looking for a "Sith-like" assassin to appear in their camp, attempt/succeed on assassinating a character, and disappear again. A prolonged battle is not really what I am looking for. I would like for him, and the threat of his coming in the future, to be scary and ultimately unpredictable, though I do not want to run the PCs up against something they have no hope of defeating without having someone die. He needs to be able to kill them, but not certain to do so every time...if that makes any sense. Edit: Currently liking the way Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 3/Dervish 1/Swashbuckler 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1 looks at CR 11. BAB +9, Weapon Finesse on dual wielded flame blades, 5d6 SA, limited MAD
#6 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 19:06:27	Well if your planning for a simple hit and run, here's a thought. (This tactic is dm dependant, but since your the DM you can approve the use of death attack in this way.) Smuggle him in at some point the PC's are grouped together and offguard. Maybe their asleep in a rope trick (make sure he's got some way to see invisibility so he can climb in after them) or maybe their gathered around a fire eating. Give him his 3 turns to study, and then leap in, swinging in a full dervish dance. Two Weapon fighting and Improved 2 weapon fighting (and some means of being hasted, heck maybe a potion) would give him 5 swings, likely enough to deliver a death attack attempt to every party member. Whoosh in, and woosh out on a wind of death, leaving likely at least one failed save in his wake. A scroll of teleport or some other such means of making sure he gets out unharmed would be wise. And yes, maxed movement is good, as is maxed initiative to make sure he can act before most of the party in the round following his assassinations. (Note the odds of TPKing with this tactic are extremely low, given the fact that Fortitude saves are fairly good, but you are very likely to kill at least one.)
#7 feloniousela Jun 09, 2009 19:22:31	I'm pretty sure he only gets to Death Attack one person as he needs to study one target for three rounds and then must make the attack within the next three, but if he is able to step into full attack range, dervish dance, unload a full 5 touch attack sneak attacks plus the death attack save, and then even move away after....if all that happens I feel confident that the party member will not be happy. Granted, if they play smart I will give them a way to avoid this....as that is almost certain death, but I want this guy to be scary....like the monster that comes out of the night, takes one person, and disappears again.
#8 nickresonance Jun 09, 2009 19:30:29	I'll add a suggestion for Blade Dancer from OA (which is a setting, but not a very big one). One level nets you a change in movement speed from 30 to 60 feet, plus the ability to alway take ten on Balance, Jump and Tumble. In combination with that, the Raptor School tactical feat (from some book I don't remember right now) lets you apply a damage bonus from a leaping attack if you study a target for three rounds and launch your attack not more than three rounds after studying. Hey, that's the same amount of time as a death attack! :P
#9 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 19:33:12	Well, I'm not sure about this, but I was always of the oppinion that you can only deliver one death attack to a subject and then the opportunity was over. However, there's nothing in the rules that clearly specifies that the 'Target' has to be a single victim. One could spend 3 rounds studying 'the group of adventurers clustered over there ripe for the picking' and then swoop in and bring death in his wake. Like I said, it's your call as DM, since it doesn't say you can target more than one, but that also is under the assumption that you can only make a melee attack against one target per turn from a consealed position. Also, here's a feat from Champions of Ruin that would work wonderfully with your intent to freak them out. Show MORTIFYING ATTACK Those who witness your brutal death attack are unnerved and jarred by the experience. Prerequisites: Death attack class feature. Benefit: All creatures within 30 feet that witness you make a successful death attack must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to death attack damage dealt) or be shaken for 2d4 rounds. Any creature you consider your ally is unaffected. In addition, creatures that fail the save are so horrified by the attack that they lose their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class for 1 round. The target of the death attack must also make the saving throw if it survives. This extraordinary ability is a fear effect.
#10 feloniousela Jun 09, 2009 20:15:47	Oh man! Both of those sound really good, but, sadly, are outside of the books we collectively have, which means we can't use them. That mortifying attack sounds perfect too, darn. I may be the DM, but I'm not about to start breaking the rules I've laid down...sadly, like I said, haha. Any ideas for equipment? I need stuff specifically that really boosts his will save, his hide, and his UMD a little bit. Some teleportation would be nice as would any other really cool things I don't know about that are awesome for assassin style characters. (I'm looking at ability focus for a feat on DA as well...should make it a Fort DC around 18 which seems scary, but not too, too bad....these is an 8th level group, albeit an overpowered 8th level group (on purpose as we all like relatively high power games and it allows me to throw crazy stuff at them)
#11 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 20:21:16	If you can squeeze the feat in, there's always Keen Intellect, that way his casting/death attack DC stat support his will save (it swaps will save stat from Wis to Int) Edit: Grrrrr, sorry about that. I'm so not used to Dragon material being banned, I love the magazine and usually only play in games that at least allow it on a case by case consideration.
#12 feloniousela Jun 09, 2009 20:24:18	If you can squeeze the feat in, there's always Keen Intellect, that way his casting/death attack DC stat support his will save (it swaps will save stat from Wis to Int) Edit: Grrrrr, sorry about that. I'm so not used to Dragon material being banned, I love the magazine and usually only play in games that at least allow it on a case by case consideration. It really comes down to the fact that we don't have access to it...and even if I can dig up the feats or whatnot somewhere, I just feel its unfair to allow myself to use it and not the players. If we had it, I would use it hahaha. We use pretty much everything we have except Psionics and ToB as no one really wants to take the time to learn it/sees it needed to learn it.
#13 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 20:33:31	I notice you don't have Incarnum or Tome of Magic banned (probably just because it hasn't come up yet lol) be hillarious to show them what some of the alternate systems are capable of.
#14 lormador Jun 09, 2009 20:38:03	Defending the Will save is a classic problem. In this case, there are several options. The first is being undead- which provides him with immunity to many Will save effects. Notably, not all of them, Slow will still ruin his day. The second is using a decent Charisma score and a lot of UMD ranks to use wands, eternal wands, and scrolls to put some buffs up for assassination-type situations. Fortunately since he's going to be the one doing the ambushing, it's a viable strategy. So load up on: From (Eternal) Wands: Protection from either Law or Chaos (whichever is opposed) Resistance (Unless he has a cloak) Vision of Glory (SpC) Clear Mind (SpC) Either Wands or Scrolls: Owl's Wisdom Eagle's Splendor From Scrolls: Freedom of Movement (a lot of the Will effects he'll face will be movement inhibitors) Resistance, Superior (expensive) Mind Blank (expensive) Assuming his Charisma is 14 to start with, going up to 18 with the Splendor, it should be enough of a bonus to get him through the brief moment when he's exposed to magical attack.
#15 SwordDisciple Jun 09, 2009 21:11:57	Collar of Umbral Metamorphisis (TOM) for Dark Template Boots of Swift Passage (MiC.78) for Teleportation 20ft 3/day? What ofther kind of items/abilities would you like?
#16 lormador Jun 09, 2009 22:47:26	This kind of design is really fun. I'd define his buff, entry, attack, and escape really precisely, so he'll pull out one huge attack and be out of there before reprisal is organized. It's surviving the brief counterattack and escaping that will be the particular problem. Assuming he'll be using all (or nearly all) of his own actions on the attack (which will be a standard action only on the surprise round), he'll have one initiative roll to make before he draws scroll and warps out. A grapple will ruin his getaway unless he's got Freedom of Movement running. An AoO (used to sunder the scroll, I think that's possible) could ruin it, too, if he has to read it in a threatened area. If the party has someone that can win initiative and put a Dimensional Anchor on him, that's trouble. They might not have it readied the first time he attacks, but they probably will the second time. Ray Deflection (SpC), or Spell Immunity (Dimensional Anchor). Could he perhaps get a level of Conjurer in there for Abrupt Jaunt? It would make his escape a lot easier, but perhaps it would remove the element of fun by making him much more difficult to counter.
#17 Balthanon Jun 09, 2009 23:09:33	If you're thinking about going with Power Attack at all, you may want to go with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting instead of Dervish-- it leaves your weapons "one-handed" rather than making them light.
#18 xakypshalorn Jun 09, 2009 23:27:58	Balthanon, he's already stated he's houseruled weapons that don't deal strength damage as not being power-attackable.
#19 death_isthe_begining Jun 10, 2009 0:01:21	Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone) gets better hide and move silently bonuses and better speed than Halfling. A Deadly Precision (Complete Adventurer) weapon adds +2d6 sneak attack to make up for the fighter levels and then some. Finally I also reccomend the Dark creature temeplate (Tome of Magic) superior low-light vision, Hide in Plain Sight, speed bonus, and hide and move silently bonuses. Out of nowhere whole party getting attacked one possibly dead then gone into the shadows almost as fast right before their unbelieving eyes.
#20 nice2meetu Jun 10, 2009 0:39:23	This might sound a little too easy, but could invisibility, swift do the escape trick? It s an assassin spell (CompAdv). Your assassin is 3rd level so he could cast it. If you fear they have to many invisibility purges, consider shadow weave magic, insidious magic (PlayersGuide2Faerun) and a caster level boost (like master spellthief, if you swap base classes or practised spellcaster). "I cannot see him" - "Cast see invisibilty!" - "But, I did already!" Furthermore, it depends on how your target party organizes their campfires, do you have any details on like nightshifts and the like? Also, assassins feel cool if they know the weaknesses of characters, so I would ask you a little about the players. Roleplay-wise I would toss in a few commetns from well-known NPCs that asks the players if they have met their friend Robert yet? All of the sudden you have all the reasonability to use what is good against them. Related: Wasn't there somewhere a modifier for encounter level when a party got ambushed? Like +1 or +2 to CR? Little off-topic: How does an halfling assassin feel "sith-like"? Kender :P? Off topic (my experience with an assassin) Show I used an assassin once as a foe and my players were very frustrated. I decided to never use an assassin on this particular group again, as long as they are not kind of prepared one might show up. The thing for that they got mad at me: Show I attacked them plenty of times with ranged attacks to make them feel uncomfortable (and interrupt spell restoration). After I death attacked one of them in the town's inn, disguised as the bar-tender, they became paranoid. Before that, they considered themselves pretty safe everywhere... but finding the dead tender and his family gave them the creeps. I guess the reason for the assassin spell list to be int based is to assure that assassin applicants have a sufficient survival IQ - so my assassins attack whenever they can actually survive at about 95% estimated probability. Kill the closely related and valued NPCs, take their personas, strike fear a few times, kill your target, survive, never come back. Don't know how to strike fear? Let the players call the guards and let one of them death attack a player when he is in a good escape position (like window to street and the like).
#21 rebel7284 Jun 10, 2009 0:45:33	Swordsage 5/Crinti Shadow Marauder 5
#22 croxley_dup Jun 10, 2009 3:20:57	A grapple will ruin his getaway unless he's got Freedom of Movement running. An AoO (used to sunder the scroll, I think that's possible) could ruin it, too, if he has to read it in a threatened area. I'd look at him using Salves of Slipperiness which will give him a really high Escape Artist. How creepy would it be for a slim/sneaky looking guy to beat the big burly fighter at a grapple..?
#23 jumpydady Jun 10, 2009 6:17:52	question wouldn't that character be getting some xp pennalty? and a halfling focusing on str wouldn't it be a waste of stats since halfling have str pennalty? just an opinion
#24 feloniousela Jun 10, 2009 11:35:11	question wouldn't that character be getting some xp pennalty? and a halfling focusing on str wouldn't it be a waste of stats since halfling have str pennalty? just an opinion Halfling's Favored Class is Rogue, so no, no exp penalty. Also, the build has evolved. I will post it at the bottom of this long post. This makes scimitars (and thus flame blade) light weapons, and gives weapon finesse, thus making the build only really need Dex and some Int to work well. I notice you don't have Incarnum or Tome of Magic banned (probably just because it hasn't come up yet lol) be hillarious to show them what some of the alternate systems are capable of. Yeah the books aren't banned, but no one knows the systems or even has ever asked about it, so I guess we will leave well enough alone...same with Legacy Weapons for that matter :P Lormador: Great ideas for the buffs. That is exactly what I am looking for and what I was leaning towards. This is a highly paid, well-known assassin (think Boba Fett wielding light sabers) sent after the group by the organization that essentially conttrols the continent. I don't want his resources to be infinite, but, like any extremely good hitman, I would imagine he has the "utility belt" stocked for doing well researched hits that he is well-paid for. Finally I also reccomend the Dark creature temeplate (Tome of Magic) superior low-light vision, Hide in Plain Sight, speed bonus, and hide and move silently bonuses. I think I'm going to avoid the Dark template, just to keep things a little bit fair. Also, gnomes don't exist in this campaign setting, so whisper gnome is out (it was my first instinct on conceptualizing the character though). Deadly Precision is a nice enhancement, but I don't know how I would get it on wands of flame blade. This might sound a little too easy, but could invisibility, swift do the escape trick? Yes, it very well might. They have learned the secrets of glitterdust and also have see Invis, but by the time he puts it up, then moves, then they cast...he should be out of there. Awesome suggestion. As far as knowing the players, he does fairly well. Also, he isn't going to attack anyone the first time he sees them. He is going to show up and tell them he is coming, it's his idea of "playing fair" and then reappear at some point. I think it will help to build some thus far absent tension while the players are resting, or even just walking into a new room/leaving a door open behind them, etc. I'm also thinking I may have to shy away from halfling. I may actually go for a varietal of Elf, for the Dex bonus, and for the creepiness of having an assassin who has been in business for 200 years or so and never caught or killed. I'd look at him using Salves of Slipperiness which will give him a really high Escape Artist. How creepy would it be for a slim/sneaky looking guy to beat the big burly fighter at a grapple..? This would be very cool, but no one in the group really ever goes for the grapple. He is definitely going to have some kind of teleportation available, even if it is just an anklet of translocation, so grapple should't be too bad if they even try it. Thanks for all of the help! You guys are awesome. Keep any suggestions coming, and I apologize for the wall of text in this post, but I just wanted to respond to everything that caught my eye. Current Build: Varietal Elf (any suggestions...not Drow please though) Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 3/Dervish 1/Swashbuckler 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1 Feats: TWF, ITWF, Weapon Focus Scimitar (b), Dodge (b), Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse (b), Mobility (via armor enhancement), Iron Will (via Otyugh Hole), One open...any suggestions? (Maybe Ability Focus for Death Attack?)
#25 true_shinken Jun 10, 2009 11:49:37	think Boba Fett wielding light sabers Your players can't possibly beat that.
#26 feloniousela Jun 10, 2009 11:55:16	Your players can't possibly beat that. If they know it's coming they might be able to. And even if they don't the first time, or the second, eventually they will get it. Theya re pretty smart and pretty powerful. Although, Boba Fett with lightsabers pretty much is the ultimate death machine conceptually :P
#27 true_shinken Jun 10, 2009 12:14:33	Although, Boba Fett with lightsabers pretty much is the ultimate death machine conceptually :P That's what I meant ^^
#28 darksamuari Jun 10, 2009 12:44:18	Your players can't possibly beat that. Why? A blind rogue with a stick did in Return of the Jedi...
#29 nice2meetu Jun 10, 2009 15:31:02	They have learned the secrets of glitterdust and also have see Invis, but by the time he puts it up, then moves, then they cast... that's why I would actually suggest a dip in Spell Thief and take the feat Master Spellthief. Assassin 3 Spell Thief 1 could steal 2nd level spells. One more thief and it would be 3. Steal their detection spells in the very first round and use them maybe to power arcane strike (except you have plans for that swift action already). The steal spell ability says that you anme the spell and if that one is not available, you get a randomly determined from highest spell slot. Not too shabby imho. Costs 1d6 sneak attack though. Another good thing about that: no more arcane failure in light armor. Maybe: Spellthief 1Rogue 2 Ftr 2 - and then as before. You lose 1 BaB + 1 feat (maybe flaw to compensate), but you can get the casters of their yummy spells - and add arcane strike (another feat), you could power it for free (using the first stolen spell).
#30 xakypshalorn Jun 10, 2009 15:41:19	assassins don't have arcane failure in light armor anyway do they? But one thing I know you've got wrong N2MU, is the spellthief. If you miss, it's one random spell, the slot is a part of that random selection.
#31 nice2meetu Jun 10, 2009 15:50:33	Note to self: Should read the paragraph before posting^^
#32 feloniousela Jun 10, 2009 15:55:19	I've been considering the Spellthief idea, and I'm just not 100% sold on it. If this guy is really capable, he should be able to get in and out before they can even target him with a glitterdust or get a see invis up. If they already have it up, he should still be able to get out of Line of Sight with his movement and teleportation...he will obviously be real careful about choosing where he ambushes so that he can get out of sight quickly. I could tack on Spellthief instead of nightsong enforcer at 11th. That really would only cost me the BAB and a feat as mentioned. It might be very interesting. Now, if I have four attacks in a Dervish dance, and hit each caster twice, can i steal glitterdust and see invis from each if all my attacks are sneak attacks?
#33 croxley_dup Jun 10, 2009 15:58:08	How about Boots of Swift Passage instead of the Anklets? gives a 20ft Teleport rather than 10ft. Or Boots of Side Stepping.. Swift action to make a 5ft step which you could use to avoid an attack - Your toughest fighter takes a swing and his opponent seems to melt away from in front of him, his well aimed swing missing by a mile
#34 nice2meetu Jun 10, 2009 16:16:47	I've been considering the Spellthief idea, and I'm just not 100% sold on it. If this guy is really capable, he should be able to get in and out before they can even target him with a glitterdust or get a see invis up. If they already have it up, he should still be able to get out of Line of Sight with his movement and teleportation...he will obviously be real careful about choosing where he ambushes so that he can get out of sight quickly. I could tack on Spellthief instead of nightsong enforcer at 11th. That really would only cost me the BAB and a feat as mentioned. It might be very interesting. Now, if I have four attacks in a Dervish dance, and hit each caster twice, can i steal glitterdust and see invis from each if all my attacks are sneak attacks? Every sneak attack 1 spell; either you guess correctly (like glitterdust), or one randomly determined (because there was no glitterdust prepared) - so if each attack is a sneak attack, you lower the sneak attack damage by 1d6, but you steal a spell. 2 hits on the same person means 2 spells. However, check what the max level is you could steal and you want to steal. For the assassin: Afaik the assassin cannot cast in any armor without rolling a d100. Except that is some gnomish whispercloak made from leaveweave or something with 0% asf.
#35 sofawall Jun 10, 2009 16:34:21	For the assassin: Afaik the assassin cannot cast in any armor without rolling a d100. Except that is some gnomish whispercloak made from leaveweave or something with 0% asf. You mean a mithral githcraft feycraft Chain Shirt and a mithral githcraft Heavy Shield?
#36 feloniousela Jun 10, 2009 20:50:13	You mean a mithral githcraft feycraft Chain Shirt and a mithral githcraft Heavy Shield? Not sure the fey and gith have crafting parties in my world to tag team armor, but, other than that, yer right on. :P
#37 xakypshalorn Jun 10, 2009 21:13:10	What about a gith with the half-fey template? lol.
#38 sofawall Jun 10, 2009 22:29:17	What about a gith with the half-fey template? lol. That's how I explain it to my DM. Alternatively, it's made by neither, but someone who learned from both.
#39 Senevri Jun 11, 2009 4:30:12	you don't need any piddly HALF-fey - there are several PrCs which turn you into fey, so just a gith who's completed such a class....
#40 feloniousela Jun 11, 2009 6:39:29	you don't need any piddly HALF-fey - there are several PrCs which turn you into fey, so just a gith who's completed such a class.... Fair 'nuff. I'll just have my players go to the big city and look for the gith blacksmith who has completed a PrC that changed him into a fey. He and his apprentice, who has traveled through the planes learning how to smith each race's specialty items because he's really nice and they all liked him enough to teach him their secrets and then let him leave (diplomancer blacksmith...pretty common these days), make some pretty nice stuff. You should see their fishing lures... :D
#41 Senevri Jun 11, 2009 8:03:30	(diplomancer blacksmith...pretty common these days "Look how he handles that hammer!" "Let's make him our king!" ... Sorry, had a Jumplomancer-induced flashback there.
#42 rebel7284 Jun 11, 2009 8:16:12	"Look how he handles that hammer!" "Let's make him our king!" That's what she said... There is a song "Lusty young smith" by Brobdingnagian Bards just on that topic.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

feloniousela

Jun 09, 2009 16:06:45

Hey guys,

I'm just looking for some more options than my tired brain can come up with. I need a CR 10 "bad guy" who is all about stealth and killing quickly out of nowhere and then disappearing again. I want him to dual wield flame blades via UMD and stack on SA damage while having a fairly reasonable chance to hit with all/most of his attacks.

So far I have:

Halfling Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 5

Scores are TBD but will be nice without being overpowering. Equipment is flexible, but it will be an NPC, so nothing real expensive.

Few questions:
1. Can you finesse with Flame Blades or does it have to be based off your Str on the attack roll?
2. Can you get Weapon Focus with Flame Blade?
3. Is it treated as a light off hand weapon?

Not allowed (easier to list than what is allowed): ToB, Psionics, Setting Specific stuff, Dragon material, Official Internet stuff is case by case.

Thanks a lot in advance, guys and gals.

xakypshalorn

Jun 09, 2009 16:26:31

1. It says it's wielded "As a scimitar" so you could dip a level of Dirvish to be on the sure side.

2. It says it's wielded "As a scimitar" so weapon focus scimitar should apply. (And lookie here, weapon focus: Slashing weapon, is a prereq for Dirvish)

3. I've already mentioned this lol, as far as I can tell it's treated as a one-handed weapon normally.

Also you'll want the double-wand wielder feat so you can activate them both at once. (If money isn't an issue make them quickenned wands of flameblade so he can trigger them and still get an attack. Badguys can be so much easier than PC's lol.)

Edit: Looking back, I think you meant a "bad guy" PC, in which case the only way to reliably get quicken would be to have an artificer who could build it in for free, or maybe UMD a metamagic wand grip into thinking you had the quicken spell feat.

feloniousela

Jun 09, 2009 16:50:23

Wow...don't know how I missed that line in the spell description. Thank you.

It's actually going to be a rather ruthless NPC. At least, I'm hoping he turns out as ruthless as I want him to be.

Hmm...

Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 5/Dervish 1

is only CR 11...and significantly better.

Any more thoughts?

Senevri

Jun 09, 2009 16:57:05

metamagic spell trigger + y'know, metamagics, will up damage output quite a bit.

Have you done a comparison vs. Ranger and Fighter levels?

Do you wish to use ToB?

Touch attacks would allow for significant level of power attacking.

Check out Lightsabers from my signature, it has some trickery for flame blades, although it's more focused on maxing out damage than anything else.

*edit: Can you add Dark template? I think this is one of the rare chances to properly use HiPS. (also, Shadowdancer)

feloniousela

Jun 09, 2009 17:13:19

metamagic spell trigger + y'know, metamagics, will up damage output quite a bit.

Have you done a comparison vs. Ranger and Fighter levels?

Do you wish to use ToB?

Touch attacks would allow for significant level of power attacking.

Check out Lightsabers from my signature, it has some trickery for flame blades, although it's more focused on maxing out damage than anything else.

*edit: Can you add Dark template? I think this is one of the rare chances to properly use HiPS. (also, Shadowdancer)

I'm not really looking to max out totally (That will just outright kill my players), plus it will add to what the NPC actually needs in order to work. I would rather he be fairly independent, and not require tons of money.

Ranger and Swashbuckler are on my list to think about. Getting a level of Swash in there along with a level in Dervish lets me Finesse the Flame Blade easily, which will reduce MAD and let me focus on Dex and Int. Ranger would get me one feat as compared to Fighter, but would also net me Track, which is cool for a NPC assassin to have.

No ToB in this game. Also I'm ruling (since I am the DM and I see it as logical) that any attacks that specifically state you cannot apply your strength damage are not Power Attack-able.

As for maxing out damage, I'm more looking for a "Sith-like" assassin to appear in their camp, attempt/succeed on assassinating a character, and disappear again. A prolonged battle is not really what I am looking for. I would like for him, and the threat of his coming in the future, to be scary and ultimately unpredictable, though I do not want to run the PCs up against something they have no hope of defeating without having someone die. He needs to be able to kill them, but not certain to do so every time...if that makes any sense.

Edit: Currently liking the way Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 3/Dervish 1/Swashbuckler 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1 looks at CR 11. BAB +9, Weapon Finesse on dual wielded flame blades, 5d6 SA, limited MAD

xakypshalorn

Jun 09, 2009 19:06:27

Well if your planning for a simple hit and run, here's a thought. (This tactic is dm dependant, but since your the DM you can approve the use of death attack in this way.)

Smuggle him in at some point the PC's are grouped together and offguard. Maybe their asleep in a rope trick (make sure he's got some way to see invisibility so he can climb in after them) or maybe their gathered around a fire eating.

Give him his 3 turns to study, and then leap in, swinging in a full dervish dance. Two Weapon fighting and Improved 2 weapon fighting (and some means of being hasted, heck maybe a potion) would give him 5 swings, likely enough to deliver a death attack attempt to every party member. Whoosh in, and woosh out on a wind of death, leaving likely at least one failed save in his wake.

A scroll of teleport or some other such means of making sure he gets out unharmed would be wise.

And yes, maxed movement is good, as is maxed initiative to make sure he can act before most of the party in the round following his assassinations. (Note the odds of TPKing with this tactic are extremely low, given the fact that Fortitude saves are fairly good, but you are very likely to kill at least one.)

feloniousela

Jun 09, 2009 19:22:31

I'm pretty sure he only gets to Death Attack one person as he needs to study one target for three rounds and then must make the attack within the next three, but if he is able to step into full attack range, dervish dance, unload a full 5 touch attack sneak attacks plus the death attack save, and then even move away after....if all that happens I feel confident that the party member will not be happy. Granted, if they play smart I will give them a way to avoid this....as that is almost certain death, but I want this guy to be scary....like the monster that comes out of the night, takes one person, and disappears again.

nickresonance

Jun 09, 2009 19:30:29

I'll add a suggestion for Blade Dancer from OA (which is a setting, but not a very big one). One level nets you a change in movement speed from 30 to 60 feet, plus the ability to alway take ten on Balance, Jump and Tumble.

In combination with that, the Raptor School tactical feat (from some book I don't remember right now) lets you apply a damage bonus from a leaping attack if you study a target for three rounds and launch your attack not more than three rounds after studying. Hey, that's the same amount of time as a death attack! :P

xakypshalorn

Jun 09, 2009 19:33:12

Well, I'm not sure about this, but I was always of the oppinion that you can only deliver one death attack to a subject and then the opportunity was over.

However, there's nothing in the rules that clearly specifies that the 'Target' has to be a single victim. One could spend 3 rounds studying 'the group of adventurers clustered over there ripe for the picking' and then swoop in and bring death in his wake.

Like I said, it's your call as DM, since it doesn't say you can target more than one, but that also is under the assumption that you can only make a melee attack against one target per turn from a consealed position.

Also, here's a feat from Champions of Ruin that would work wonderfully with your intent to freak them out.

Show

MORTIFYING ATTACK
Those who witness your brutal death attack are unnerved and jarred by the experience.
Prerequisites: Death attack class feature.
Benefit: All creatures within 30 feet that witness you make a successful death attack must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to death attack damage dealt) or be shaken for 2d4 rounds. Any creature you consider your ally is unaffected. In addition, creatures that fail the save are so horrified by the attack that they lose their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class for 1 round. The target of the death attack must also make the saving throw if it survives.
This extraordinary ability is a fear effect.

#10

feloniousela

Jun 09, 2009 20:15:47

Oh man! Both of those sound really good, but, sadly, are outside of the books we collectively have, which means we can't use them. That mortifying attack sounds perfect too, darn. I may be the DM, but I'm not about to start breaking the rules I've laid down...sadly, like I said, haha.

Any ideas for equipment? I need stuff specifically that really boosts his will save, his hide, and his UMD a little bit. Some teleportation would be nice as would any other really cool things I don't know about that are awesome for assassin style characters.

(I'm looking at ability focus for a feat on DA as well...should make it a Fort DC around 18 which seems scary, but not too, too bad....these is an 8th level group, albeit an overpowered 8th level group (on purpose as we all like relatively high power games and it allows me to throw crazy stuff at them)

#11

xakypshalorn

Jun 09, 2009 20:21:16

If you can squeeze the feat in, there's always Keen Intellect, that way his casting/death attack DC stat support his will save (it swaps will save stat from Wis to Int)

Edit: Grrrrr, sorry about that. I'm so not used to Dragon material being banned, I love the magazine and usually only play in games that at least allow it on a case by case consideration.

#12

feloniousela

Jun 09, 2009 20:24:18

If you can squeeze the feat in, there's always Keen Intellect, that way his casting/death attack DC stat support his will save (it swaps will save stat from Wis to Int)

Edit: Grrrrr, sorry about that. I'm so not used to Dragon material being banned, I love the magazine and usually only play in games that at least allow it on a case by case consideration.

It really comes down to the fact that we don't have access to it...and even if I can dig up the feats or whatnot somewhere, I just feel its unfair to allow myself to use it and not the players. If we had it, I would use it hahaha. We use pretty much everything we have except Psionics and ToB as no one really wants to take the time to learn it/sees it needed to learn it.

#13

xakypshalorn

Jun 09, 2009 20:33:31

I notice you don't have Incarnum or Tome of Magic banned (probably just because it hasn't come up yet lol) be hillarious to show them what some of the alternate systems are capable of.

#14

lormador

Jun 09, 2009 20:38:03

Defending the Will save is a classic problem. In this case, there are several options. The first is being undead- which provides him with immunity to many Will save effects. Notably, not all of them, Slow will still ruin his day.

The second is using a decent Charisma score and a lot of UMD ranks to use wands, eternal wands, and scrolls to put some buffs up for assassination-type situations. Fortunately since he's going to be the one doing the ambushing, it's a viable strategy. So load up on:

From (Eternal) Wands:
Protection from either Law or Chaos (whichever is opposed)
Resistance (Unless he has a cloak)
Vision of Glory (SpC)
Clear Mind (SpC)

Either Wands or Scrolls:
Owl's Wisdom
Eagle's Splendor

From Scrolls:
Freedom of Movement (a lot of the Will effects he'll face will be movement inhibitors)
Resistance, Superior (expensive)
Mind Blank (expensive)

Assuming his Charisma is 14 to start with, going up to 18 with the Splendor, it should be enough of a bonus to get him through the brief moment when he's exposed to magical attack.

#15

SwordDisciple

Jun 09, 2009 21:11:57

Collar of Umbral Metamorphisis (TOM) for Dark Template
Boots of Swift Passage (MiC.78) for Teleportation 20ft 3/day?

What ofther kind of items/abilities would you like?

#16

lormador

Jun 09, 2009 22:47:26

This kind of design is really fun. I'd define his buff, entry, attack, and escape really precisely, so he'll pull out one huge attack and be out of there before reprisal is organized.

It's surviving the brief counterattack and escaping that will be the particular problem. Assuming he'll be using all (or nearly all) of his own actions on the attack (which will be a standard action only on the surprise round), he'll have one initiative roll to make before he draws scroll and warps out.

A grapple will ruin his getaway unless he's got Freedom of Movement running. An AoO (used to sunder the scroll, I think that's possible) could ruin it, too, if he has to read it in a threatened area.

If the party has someone that can win initiative and put a Dimensional Anchor on him, that's trouble. They might not have it readied the first time he attacks, but they probably will the second time. Ray Deflection (SpC), or Spell Immunity (Dimensional Anchor).

Could he perhaps get a level of Conjurer in there for Abrupt Jaunt? It would make his escape a lot easier, but perhaps it would remove the element of fun by making him much more difficult to counter.

#17

Balthanon

Jun 09, 2009 23:09:33

If you're thinking about going with Power Attack at all, you may want to go with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting instead of Dervish-- it leaves your weapons "one-handed" rather than making them light.

#18

xakypshalorn

Jun 09, 2009 23:27:58

Balthanon, he's already stated he's houseruled weapons that don't deal strength damage as not being power-attackable.

#19

death_isthe_begining

Jun 10, 2009 0:01:21

Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone) gets better hide and move silently bonuses and better speed than Halfling.
A Deadly Precision (Complete Adventurer) weapon adds +2d6 sneak attack to make up for the fighter levels and then some.
Finally I also reccomend the Dark creature temeplate (Tome of Magic) superior low-light vision, Hide in Plain Sight, speed bonus, and hide and move silently bonuses.

Out of nowhere whole party getting attacked one possibly dead then gone into the shadows almost as fast right before their unbelieving eyes.

#20

nice2meetu

Jun 10, 2009 0:39:23

This might sound a little too easy, but could invisibility, swift do the escape trick?
It s an assassin spell (CompAdv). Your assassin is 3rd level so he could cast it.
If you fear they have to many invisibility purges, consider shadow weave magic, insidious magic (PlayersGuide2Faerun) and a caster level boost (like master spellthief, if you swap base classes or practised spellcaster).
"I cannot see him" - "Cast see invisibilty!" - "But, I did already!"

Furthermore, it depends on how your target party organizes their campfires, do you have any details on like nightshifts and the like?
Also, assassins feel cool if they know the weaknesses of characters, so I would ask you a little about the players.
Roleplay-wise I would toss in a few commetns from well-known NPCs that asks the players if they have met their friend Robert yet? All of the sudden you have all the reasonability to use what is good against them.

Related:
Wasn't there somewhere a modifier for encounter level when a party got ambushed? Like +1 or +2 to CR?

Little off-topic:
How does an halfling assassin feel "sith-like"? Kender :P?

Off topic (my experience with an assassin)

Show

I used an assassin once as a foe and my players were very frustrated. I decided to never use an assassin on this particular group again, as long as they are not kind of prepared one might show up.

The thing for that they got mad at me:

Show

I attacked them plenty of times with ranged attacks to make them feel uncomfortable (and interrupt spell restoration).
After I death attacked one of them in the town's inn, disguised as the bar-tender, they became paranoid. Before that, they considered themselves pretty safe everywhere... but finding the dead tender and his family gave them the creeps.

I guess the reason for the assassin spell list to be int based is to assure that assassin applicants have a sufficient survival IQ - so my assassins attack whenever they can actually survive at about 95% estimated probability. Kill the closely related and valued NPCs, take their personas, strike fear a few times, kill your target, survive, never come back.
Don't know how to strike fear? Let the players call the guards and let one of them death attack a player when he is in a good escape position (like window to street and the like).

#21

rebel7284

Jun 10, 2009 0:45:33

Swordsage 5/Crinti Shadow Marauder 5

#22

croxley_dup

Jun 10, 2009 3:20:57

A grapple will ruin his getaway unless he's got Freedom of Movement running. An AoO (used to sunder the scroll, I think that's possible) could ruin it, too, if he has to read it in a threatened area.

I'd look at him using Salves of Slipperiness which will give him a really high Escape Artist. How creepy would it be for a slim/sneaky looking guy to beat the big burly fighter at a grapple..?

#23

jumpydady

Jun 10, 2009 6:17:52

question wouldn't that character be getting some xp pennalty? and a halfling focusing on str wouldn't it be a waste of stats since halfling have str pennalty? just an opinion

#24

feloniousela

Jun 10, 2009 11:35:11

question wouldn't that character be getting some xp pennalty? and a halfling focusing on str wouldn't it be a waste of stats since halfling have str pennalty? just an opinion

Halfling's Favored Class is Rogue, so no, no exp penalty. Also, the build has evolved. I will post it at the bottom of this long post.

This makes scimitars (and thus flame blade) light weapons, and gives weapon finesse, thus making the build only really need Dex and some Int to work well.

I notice you don't have Incarnum or Tome of Magic banned (probably just because it hasn't come up yet lol) be hillarious to show them what some of the alternate systems are capable of.

Yeah the books aren't banned, but no one knows the systems or even has ever asked about it, so I guess we will leave well enough alone...same with Legacy Weapons for that matter :P

Lormador: Great ideas for the buffs. That is exactly what I am looking for and what I was leaning towards. This is a highly paid, well-known assassin (think Boba Fett wielding light sabers) sent after the group by the organization that essentially conttrols the continent. I don't want his resources to be infinite, but, like any extremely good hitman, I would imagine he has the "utility belt" stocked for doing well researched hits that he is well-paid for.

Finally I also reccomend the Dark creature temeplate (Tome of Magic) superior low-light vision, Hide in Plain Sight, speed bonus, and hide and move silently bonuses.

I think I'm going to avoid the Dark template, just to keep things a little bit fair. Also, gnomes don't exist in this campaign setting, so whisper gnome is out (it was my first instinct on conceptualizing the character though). Deadly Precision is a nice enhancement, but I don't know how I would get it on wands of flame blade.

This might sound a little too easy, but could invisibility, swift do the escape trick?

Yes, it very well might. They have learned the secrets of glitterdust and also have see Invis, but by the time he puts it up, then moves, then they cast...he should be out of there. Awesome suggestion. As far as knowing the players, he does fairly well. Also, he isn't going to attack anyone the first time he sees them. He is going to show up and tell them he is coming, it's his idea of "playing fair" and then reappear at some point. I think it will help to build some thus far absent tension while the players are resting, or even just walking into a new room/leaving a door open behind them, etc.

I'm also thinking I may have to shy away from halfling. I may actually go for a varietal of Elf, for the Dex bonus, and for the creepiness of having an assassin who has been in business for 200 years or so and never caught or killed.

I'd look at him using Salves of Slipperiness which will give him a really high Escape Artist. How creepy would it be for a slim/sneaky looking guy to beat the big burly fighter at a grapple..?

This would be very cool, but no one in the group really ever goes for the grapple. He is definitely going to have some kind of teleportation available, even if it is just an anklet of translocation, so grapple should't be too bad if they even try it.

Thanks for all of the help! You guys are awesome. Keep any suggestions coming, and I apologize for the wall of text in this post, but I just wanted to respond to everything that caught my eye.

Current Build: Varietal Elf (any suggestions...not Drow please though)
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 3/Dervish 1/Swashbuckler 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1
Feats: TWF, ITWF, Weapon Focus Scimitar (b), Dodge (b), Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse (b), Mobility (via armor enhancement), Iron Will (via Otyugh Hole), One open...any suggestions? (Maybe Ability Focus for Death Attack?)

#25

true_shinken

Jun 10, 2009 11:49:37

think Boba Fett wielding light sabers

Your players can't possibly beat that.

#26

feloniousela

Jun 10, 2009 11:55:16

Your players can't possibly beat that.

If they know it's coming they might be able to. And even if they don't the first time, or the second, eventually they will get it. Theya re pretty smart and pretty powerful.

Although, Boba Fett with lightsabers pretty much is the ultimate death machine conceptually :P

#27

true_shinken

Jun 10, 2009 12:14:33

Although, Boba Fett with lightsabers pretty much is the ultimate death machine conceptually :P

That's what I meant ^^

#28

darksamuari

Jun 10, 2009 12:44:18

Your players can't possibly beat that.

Why? A blind rogue with a stick did in Return of the Jedi...

#29

nice2meetu

Jun 10, 2009 15:31:02

They have learned the secrets of glitterdust and also have see Invis, but by the time he puts it up, then moves, then they cast...

that's why I would actually suggest a dip in Spell Thief and take the feat Master Spellthief. Assassin 3 Spell Thief 1 could steal 2nd level spells. One more thief and it would be 3.
Steal their detection spells in the very first round and use them maybe to power arcane strike (except you have plans for that swift action already). The steal spell ability says that you anme the spell and if that one is not available, you get a randomly determined from highest spell slot. Not too shabby imho. Costs 1d6 sneak attack though.

Another good thing about that: no more arcane failure in light armor.

Maybe:
Spellthief 1Rogue 2 Ftr 2 - and then as before.
You lose 1 BaB + 1 feat (maybe flaw to compensate), but you can get the casters of their yummy spells - and add arcane strike (another feat), you could power it for free (using the first stolen spell).

#30

xakypshalorn

Jun 10, 2009 15:41:19

assassins don't have arcane failure in light armor anyway do they?

But one thing I know you've got wrong N2MU, is the spellthief. If you miss, it's one random spell, the slot is a part of that random selection.

#31

nice2meetu

Jun 10, 2009 15:50:33

Note to self: Should read the paragraph before posting^^

#32

feloniousela

Jun 10, 2009 15:55:19

I've been considering the Spellthief idea, and I'm just not 100% sold on it. If this guy is really capable, he should be able to get in and out before they can even target him with a glitterdust or get a see invis up. If they already have it up, he should still be able to get out of Line of Sight with his movement and teleportation...he will obviously be real careful about choosing where he ambushes so that he can get out of sight quickly.

I could tack on Spellthief instead of nightsong enforcer at 11th. That really would only cost me the BAB and a feat as mentioned. It might be very interesting. Now, if I have four attacks in a Dervish dance, and hit each caster twice, can i steal glitterdust and see invis from each if all my attacks are sneak attacks?

#33

croxley_dup

Jun 10, 2009 15:58:08

How about Boots of Swift Passage instead of the Anklets? gives a 20ft Teleport rather than 10ft.

Or Boots of Side Stepping.. Swift action to make a 5ft step which you could use to avoid an attack - Your toughest fighter takes a swing and his opponent seems to melt away from in front of him, his well aimed swing missing by a mile

#34

nice2meetu

Jun 10, 2009 16:16:47

I've been considering the Spellthief idea, and I'm just not 100% sold on it. If this guy is really capable, he should be able to get in and out before they can even target him with a glitterdust or get a see invis up. If they already have it up, he should still be able to get out of Line of Sight with his movement and teleportation...he will obviously be real careful about choosing where he ambushes so that he can get out of sight quickly.

I could tack on Spellthief instead of nightsong enforcer at 11th. That really would only cost me the BAB and a feat as mentioned. It might be very interesting. Now, if I have four attacks in a Dervish dance, and hit each caster twice, can i steal glitterdust and see invis from each if all my attacks are sneak attacks?

Every sneak attack 1 spell;
either you guess correctly (like glitterdust), or one randomly determined (because there was no glitterdust prepared) - so if each attack is a sneak attack, you lower the sneak attack damage by 1d6, but you steal a spell.

2 hits on the same person means 2 spells. However, check what the max level is you could steal and you want to steal.

For the assassin: Afaik the assassin cannot cast in any armor without rolling a d100. Except that is some gnomish whispercloak made from leaveweave or something with 0% asf.

#35

sofawall

Jun 10, 2009 16:34:21

For the assassin: Afaik the assassin cannot cast in any armor without rolling a d100. Except that is some gnomish whispercloak made from leaveweave or something with 0% asf.

You mean a mithral githcraft feycraft Chain Shirt and a mithral githcraft Heavy Shield?

#36

feloniousela

Jun 10, 2009 20:50:13

You mean a mithral githcraft feycraft Chain Shirt and a mithral githcraft Heavy Shield?

Not sure the fey and gith have crafting parties in my world to tag team armor, but, other than that, yer right on. :P

#37

xakypshalorn

Jun 10, 2009 21:13:10

What about a gith with the half-fey template? lol.

#38

sofawall

Jun 10, 2009 22:29:17

What about a gith with the half-fey template? lol.

That's how I explain it to my DM.

Alternatively, it's made by neither, but someone who learned from both.

#39

Senevri

Jun 11, 2009 4:30:12

you don't need any piddly HALF-fey - there are several PrCs which turn you into fey, so just a gith who's completed such a class....

#40

feloniousela

Jun 11, 2009 6:39:29

you don't need any piddly HALF-fey - there are several PrCs which turn you into fey, so just a gith who's completed such a class....

Fair 'nuff. I'll just have my players go to the big city and look for the gith blacksmith who has completed a PrC that changed him into a fey. He and his apprentice, who has traveled through the planes learning how to smith each race's specialty items because he's really nice and they all liked him enough to teach him their secrets and then let him leave (diplomancer blacksmith...pretty common these days), make some pretty nice stuff. You should see their fishing lures...

:D

#41

Senevri

Jun 11, 2009 8:03:30

(diplomancer blacksmith...pretty common these days

"Look how he handles that hammer!" "Let's make him our king!"
...
Sorry, had a Jumplomancer-induced flashback there.

#42

rebel7284

Jun 11, 2009 8:16:12

"Look how he handles that hammer!" "Let's make him our king!"

That's what she said...

There is a song "Lusty young smith" by Brobdingnagian Bards just on that topic.