Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sam_lamander Feb 21, 2009 12:16:09	Hi there. I'd like to build a dwarf who dual wields an urgrosh, who focus on defense in combat, with a preference for speed and dodging over being a walking tin can. Damage reduction would be greatly appreciated. Increased HP are favored over heavy armor. I don't know what is allowed outside of SRD, so I'd rather use simple feats, which I might be able to talk the GM into using, rather than whole classes/prestige classes that he will probably reject on the grounds that he doesn't have time to review how they fit in his campaign settings and how balanced they are. However, this should be a level 12 character, based on 40 point buy creation - according to the GM, we will need those -, no Flaws or Traits allowed. The campaign settings is based on Greyhawk. The GM houseruled that Monks multiclassing in anything other than Monk Prestige Class would lose most of their class special abilities. Same for Paladins. Here is my first draft : Ranger 7 / Dwarven Defender 5 STR 16 (15 [08pts] +1[lvl]) DEX 18 (16 [10pts] +2[lvl]) CON 16 (12 [06pts] +2[race]) INT 12 (12 [04pts]) WIS 14 (14 [06pts]) CHA 12 (14 [06pts] -2[race]) Class Abilities: Rgr 1: Favored Enemy (Goblinoids), Track, wild Empathy Rgr 2: Combat Style (TWF) Rgr 3: Endurance Rgr 4: Animal Companion (? to be determined) Rgr 5: Favored Enemy (Giants) Rgr 6: Improved Combat Style (ITWF) Rgr 7: Woodland Stride DwD 1: Defensive Stance 1/day DwD 2: Uncanny Dodge DwD 3: Defensive Stance 2/day DwD 4: Trap Sense +1 DwD 5: Defensive Stance 3/day Feats : lvl1 : Dodge lvl3 : Toughness lvl6 : Quick Draw lvl9 : Weapon Focus (Urgrosh) lvl12: Two Weapon Defense
#2 sam_lamander Feb 22, 2009 4:49:02	Apparently, this build doesn't inspire much... I'd really like to have suggestions on how I could improve this concept, and most of all, what its pogression towards level 20 should be... Please help ?
#3 gorthawar Feb 22, 2009 8:23:41	Hi there. I'd like to build a dwarf who dual wields an urgrosh, who focus on defense in combat, with a preference for speed and dodging over being a walking tin can. Damage reduction would be greatly appreciated. Increased HP are favored over heavy armor. ... Any other suggestions ? Well the marked sentence is definitely a contradiction to the concept of a dwarfen defender. Are you aware of the fact that you can't move while being in a defencive stance? If you're stuck with core classes you should probably use a two handed weapon and use power attack since two-weapon fighting without damage bonuses like sneak attack is rather weak. But if you insist on the Urgrosh you should probably combine barbarian, fighter and ranger to some amount. perhaps something like : barbarian2/ranger2/fighter8 (plenty of feats, rage, endurance and track) or barbarian2/ranger2/fighter1/horizon walker 6 (less feats but dimension door, improved darkvision and immunity to fatigue) or barbarian12 (greater rage, DR 2) for the first and second build I'd end up with: barbarian2/ranger3/fighter8/horizon walker7 nice feats to have are extra rage, steadfast determination and even though underpowered weapon specialization since you will have trouble getting your damage up by other means. Attibutes: (5 points left) Str: 18 (10pts) +2 lvl (Damage & ToHit) Dex: 18 (13pts) +1 lvl (AC & Imp Two-Wweapon Fighting) Con: 18 (10pts) (HP) Int: 10 (2pts) (unless you need more skills) Wis: 8 (0pts) (if you take steadfast determination your will save uses con, cant cast spells anyways) Cha: 6 (0pts) (well your animal empathy is lvl 2 only and you dont have an animal companion)
#4 sam_lamander Feb 22, 2009 16:24:37	Yes, I am aware that a Dwarven Defender can't move while in a defensive stance. Nevertheless, the Dwarven Defender needs the Dodge feat as a prerequisite, he gains a dodge Bonus up to +4 at level 10, and the defensive stance adds another +4 Dodge bonus to AC. This is why I wanted to work more on dodging abilities, rather than wearing a full plate armor and a tower shield. Natural armor would be another interesting path. Regarding speed, while a Dwarven Defender can't move when in a defensive stance, it doesn't mean he can't be swift when he needs (and is able) to move. Moreover, speed can also be interpreted as the number of attacks per round, which TWF and iTWF improves slightly. That said, I understand that it's hard to make a dwarf both efficient with a dual wielded Urgrosh and able to dodge blows like he's a bouncing ball... But I'm very definite on the Urgrosh thing. I only considered barbarian because of the prospect of a raging defensive stance : +8 CON, +6 STR, +4 on Will saves, +2 on other saves, +2 AC. However, alignment compatibility not withstanding, I thought that being fatigued AND winded afterwards was probably not worth it. Slapping an Horizon Walker level with Desert Mastery in there would take care of being fatigued. Factoring in the Steadfast Determination (can't find any reference for that feat. what source is it from ?), the Will saves are through the roof too. By the way, I don't get Endurance as a free Feat with the Ranger 2 / Barbarian 2 / Fighter 8 build. So, what about Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 / Barbarian 2 / Horizon Walker 1 / Dwarven Defender 5 ? Show Rgr 1 : Track, Favored Enemy (giant), Wild Empathy, Dodge Rgr 2 : Two Weapon Fighting Fgt 1 : Steadfast Determination (CON mod. to Will saves), Weapon Focus (urgrosh) Brb 1 : Fast Movement, Rage 1/day Brb 2 : Uncanny Dodge Fgt 2 : Endurance, Toughness HzW 1 : Terrain Mastery (desert) DwD 1 : Defensive Stance 1/day DwD 2 : Improved Uncanny Dodge, Two Weapon Defense DwD 3 : Defensive Stance 2/day DwD 4 : Trap Sense +1 DwD 5 : Defensive Stance 3/day, Extra Rage
#5 Hideous_Phidias Feb 22, 2009 18:36:16	I you want to be a dwarven defender then you should play to that class's strengths. The defender is all about tanking, in other words standing there and taking the hits. You are going to want to have the heavies armory you can get. If you want lighter armor then have it made of mithral. You are not slowed by heavier armor. Your a dwarf one of the best bonuses to being one is the fact For weapons I suggest you go with a reach weapon like a Guisarme and Spiked Gauntlets. The Guisarme can give you a trip attack and the Gauntlet allow you to threaten the area the reach weapon does not. For a build I would suggest Ranger 4/Fighter4/Dwarven Defender4 1)RBF:Track, F: Power Attack 2)RBF: Two Weapon Fighting 3)RBF: Endurance F: Dodge 4) 5)FBF:Combat Reflexes 6)FBF: Short Haft (PHB2) F: Toughness 7) 8)FBF: Cleave 9)F: Titan Fighting (RoS) 10) 11) 12)F: Great Cleave If you really are stuck on having the Urgrosh then switch out the feat Short Haft for Long Strike out of Dragon Magazine this will give you reach with it. Build #2 One better for a ranger with a Urgrosh 1)RBF:Track, F: Power Attack 2)RBF: Two Weapon Fighting 3)RBF: Endurance F: Dodge 4) 5)FBF:Combat Reflexes 6)FBF:Toughness F: Natural Bond (CAdv) 7) 8)FBF: Long Strike 9)F: Titan Fighting (RoS) 10) 11) 12)F: Cleave The feat Natural Bond gives your animal companion more power. There are a few things you may want to have your Urgrosh; Cleaving, Whirling and Knockback. There are also items that give you reach with an non-reach polearm like the Urgrosh.
#6 Wyvernhand Feb 23, 2009 2:24:43	Duel Wielding your Urgrosh as a ranger is a BAD idea. You'll get some attacks, but those attacks won't do hardly any damage. Don't give up the Urgrosh though, because you CAN 2hand it with fun results. Check this out: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15422232&postcount=1 A little build I put together. An Urgrosh qualifies for both Uncanny Blow AND Flurry of Strikes, which makes it the perfect weapon for this. An extra attack per round (while wielding 2handed) and 2x +str damage make you pretty formitable. Deepwarden removes your need to have Dex at all, making you dependant only on Str and Con. Occult Slayer gives you some much needed protections which you can augement with gear, and Pious Templar gives you Mettle along with a handful of Paladin spells (go read the paladin spells in Spell Compendium, there are some really good ones in there). Maintains full BAB, decent defenses without sacrificing offense. It'll serve you a lot better in melee than what you are trying to build by being more resilliant and more able to be a threat and draw attacks away from your squishier party members. Hope you like it.
#7 sam_lamander Feb 23, 2009 9:11:23	I you want to be a dwarven defender then you should play to that class's strengths. The defender is all about tanking, in other words standing there and taking the hits. You are going to want to have the heavies armory you can get. If you want lighter armor then have it made of mithral. You are not slowed by heavier armor. Your a dwarf one of the best bonuses to being one is the fact. First, I'll disregard the thing about using a guisarme. As previously stated, yes, I do want to use an urgrosh. But thanks for the suggestion anyway. Second, while I agree that dwarves not being encumbered by heavy armor is nice, given the mechanics of the Dwarven Defender, he hardly just "stands there and takes the hits". Requirements [...] * Feats: Dodge, Endurance, Toughness. [...] Class Features AC Bonus (Ex): The dwarven defender receives a dodge bonus to Armor Class that starts at +1 and improves as the defender gains levels, until it reaches +4 at 10th level. [...] Defensive Stance: When he adopts a defensive stance, a defender gains phenomenal strength and durability, but he cannot move from the spot he is defending. He gains +2 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, a +2 resistance bonus on all saves, and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. Being a Dwarven Defender really is as much about avoiding hits as taking them, in my opinion. Probably even more so, given how late the damage resistance comes into play. If you really are stuck on having the Urgrosh then switch out the feat Short Haft for Long Strike out of Dragon Magazine this will give you reach with it. Build #2 One better for a ranger with a Urgrosh 1)RBF:Track, F: Power Attack 2)RBF: Two Weapon Fighting 3)RBF: Endurance F: Dodge 4) 5)FBF:Combat Reflexes 6)FBF:Toughness F: Natural Bond (CAdv) 7) 8)FBF: Long Strike 9)F: Titan Fighting (RoS) 10) 11) 12)F: Cleave The feat Natural Bond gives your animal companion more power. There are a few things you may want to have your Urgrosh; Cleaving, Whirling and Knockback. There are also items that give you reach with an non-reach polearm like the Urgrosh. This is an interesting build... I can't help noticing you're contradicting your first statement about heavy armor, since you're suggesting Ranger for the TWF bonus feat... Which doesn't work if you're wearing anything heavier than light armor. Or maybe you're just trying to humor me. Anyway, Long strike, Natural bond and Titan fighting are three Feats that I will have to discuss with the GM. Just because they're official doesn't mean he'll accept them (remember Rule 0). But just to be sure, I'd like to clarify them: - Natural Bond gives +3 to the Effective Druid Level used to determine the power of an Animal Companion, limited to the Effective Character Level. Right ? - Long Strike allows me to make one attack with Reach +5ft. at the cost of a Full Attack action. I don't think it's as good as you seem to think it is. Duel Wielding your Urgrosh as a ranger is a BAD idea. You'll get some attacks, but those attacks won't do hardly any damage. Don't give up the Urgrosh though, because you CAN 2hand it with fun results. Check this out: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15422232&postcount=1 Woah, woah, woah, stop right there ! Even though it really looks interesting, 4 prestige classes that are not in the SRD ? There's no way my GM will accept that ! But I would definitely give it a try if given the opportunity...
#8 Hideous_Phidias Feb 23, 2009 10:34:04	First you can dodge all you want while standing here and taking it. The Dwarven Defendes main powers requires you to not move in that round. Later on you are able to move while you are in the defensive stance but only five feet. My point was that lighter armor is good for a mobile type of character. The Dwarven Defender is an old World War one tank, slowly crawling a crossed the battle field crushing all it its path. You are going to need all the AC you can get, so still think having the heavy armor is a better idea. Your right when you say being a dwarven defender is about avoiding getting hit heavy armor and a high dodge bonus jacks you AC which is the main way to a void getting hit. Second I throw in the two builds because I thought it was more what you wanted. I have a stupid question about you dueling wielding urgrosh. Are you talking about two or one urgrosh. I am sorry to say that I had to reread the weapon description of t he urgrosh. I did not know you could wield one in one hand. If you are fighting with two then you will need to work in the a feat that allows you to wield a larger then light weapon in your off hand. I think monkey grip will work or oversized two weapon fighting (CAdv) will work better. Third, anothing you may want to think about is a shield or buckler. Use improve buckler defense to get a shield bonus when using your urgrosh as a double weapon or have the ability to change one of your urgrosh in to a heavy shield, I think it is only a plus one a weapon ability.
#9 sam_lamander Feb 23, 2009 22:29:40	Apparently, we don't have the same perception of what "taking hits" is. To me, it means that you're not even trying to avoid them. If your armor or shield deflects them, that's good. If not, well, too bad, but at least you have some HP and possibly a little DR to make this acceptable. It is something that's very different from dodging, which is actively trying to avoid being hit, by anticipating the trajectory of the blow and getting the hell out of its way. How a Dwarven Defender can do that in heavy armor and without living a 5ft square is beyond me, but hey, it's a fantasy game, right ? However, I think you are mistaken about how good heavy armor is. With 18 DEX, a chainshirt (light, 25lb., 100gp) provides +8 (+4armor, +4DEX) AC, a full plate (heavy, 50lb., 1'500gp) +9 (+8 armor, +1DEX) AC and a mithril full plate (medium, 25lb., 10'500gp) +11 (+8 armor, +3 DEX) AC. So, unless the DM wants to give me a mithril full plate, I'm sticking with a high DEX and a light armor. Heck, for half the price, I can get a mithril chainshirt and a pair of Gloves of Dexterity +2, for a +9 AC, no armor penalties, a better initiative, and all that weighing only 12lb. What the hell is this about weight, you say ? Even though dwarves aren't slowed down by their armor or the equipment their carrying, both still affect their max DEX bonus. I'm still willing to retain my +4 to AC, thank you very much. What about being flat footed, then ? The Dwarven Defender gains Uncanny Dodge at the 2nd level. He keeps is DEX bonus to AC, even when flatfooted. And if this isn't enough to convince you that light armor + high DEX is better than heavy armor, keep in mind that Touch Attacks ignore armor, but not the DEX or Dodge bonus to AC. Regarding the urgrosh, Medium-sized creatures can't wield one in only one hand unless they have appropriate feats or something. The line about a creature wielding one in one hand is the same for every double weapon. So I'm talking about one urgrosh, wielded as two weapons. As for the buckler, this would be something to consider. I could switch Two Weapon Defense (which basically grants me the bonus of an ordinary buckler without actually having one) for Improved Buckler Defense so that I can gainfully equip a potentially magic one. Having the Defending weapon ability on at least one end of the urgrosh was definitely on my list. It doesn't turn the weapon into a shield, though : it allows to convert some or all of the enhancement bonus into a stackable AC bonus.
#10 Wyvernhand Feb 24, 2009 1:21:22	Ok, you either have amazing rolls for stats or you are sacrificing something something for that 18 dex. There is no reason to invest that much in your AC. Its just a minor increase in AC, you'd be much better increasing your Con to bump your HP to be able to take hits, or your Str to be able to kill things faster so that you don't take as many hits. Either/or, you are investing in the wrong stat. TWFing with the Urgrosh is also bad. You don't need that Dex, because you shouldn't be TWFing with it. You should be 2handing it. So, either you have incredible amazing stats, or you are sacrificing way too much to be able to TWF. Either way, you should seriously look into doing something slightly different. Even if you can't get into all the PrCs I had in my build, at least get into Deepwarden, which allows you to apply your Con to AC instead of your Dex. This allows you to dump your Dex in favor of Str and Con. Since you need Endurance to get into Deepwarden, you can then easily take Steadfast Determination. Then your AC, Fort Save, Will Save, and HP are all dependant on your Con. Thats optimization...not committing to a MAD (Multi-Ability Dependant) build that still performs sub-par to just about anything you could build. Make sense?
#11 gorthawar Feb 24, 2009 3:26:21	Well Sam lets have a look at your build at lvl 12. Your Armor Class will at most be something around: 10 Base + 8 (Mithral Breastplate +3) ~10000gp + 4 (buckler +3) ~10000gp + 3 (Amulett of NA+3) ~16000gp + 3 (Ring of Protection +3) ~16000gp + 2 (Dwarfen Defender) + 2 (Defensive Stance & Rage) + 6 (Dexterity) 38 total but you spend 52k of 88k of your wealth by level If you look at the CR12 Monsters in the SRD you'll find: Basilisk, Greater Abyssal (+25 (40% to hit)) Cryohydra, Eleven-Headed (only +16 to hit 5% but lots of cold damage and fast healing 21, reach) Frost Worm (+21 (20%), reach) Inevitable, Kolyarut (+11 melee touch (45%), +10 ranged touch 40%, intelligent) Kraken (+28 (55%) and a huge grapple bonus, reach) Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal (+34 (85%), reach) Ooze, Elder Black Pudding (+19 (10%), reach) Purple Worm (+25 (40%), reach) Pyrohydra, Eleven-Headed (same as cyrohydra) Roper (+11 ranged touch (55%), +13 melee (5%), intelligent) White Dragon, Mature adult (+27 (50%), breath weapon, intelligent, fly) if you exclude the good outsiders and dragons (I assume that you play a good aligned character if that is not the case I think that the good dragons are stronger anyways) Most of these Monsters are either able to hit you, have reach which means you wont be able to strike back since youre in defensive stance and cant move, are smart enough to stay away from you or have a very good healing rate. Even when you get close to them you do at most 1d8+14 damage with a hit which hardly bothers most of these monsters. Basically your build sucks vs. each of them. It is just not enough to have a nice armor class!!!!!! And it will be even worse at higher lvls since the attack bonus of your opponents advances much faster then your armor bonus. Unless your DM lets all these charge at you, your party will have to take care of most encounters... and you will be bored most of the time. I had a Barbarian2/Fighter2/Ranger1/HorizonWalker1/Battlerager4 in my last campaign who had a lot less ac (24-26) but dealt a huge amount of damage especially when charging. But he was still bored whenever a battle needed some amount of mobility especially flying opponents because he couldnt reach the opponent. And you are limited even further. While combat is not everything in DnD it is a part of it and if you suck at it as a fighter who doesnt have many skills outside fighting the game might be a little unsatisfying for you.
#12 sam_lamander Feb 25, 2009 12:00:01	You know what ? Forget about it. From what you're saying, a Dwarven Defender who fights with anything different from a 1-handed weapon and a tower shield can't tank properly, and an urgrosh shouldn't be used for Two Weapon Fighting, ever. My concept for a character sucks. Got it. I'll go roll a cleric or make a Pun-Pun, or whatever.
#13 phaedrusxy Feb 25, 2009 12:11:36	Y From what you're saying, a Dwarven Defender who fights with anything different from a 1-handed weapon and a tower shield can't tank properly, and an urgrosh shouldn't be used for Two Weapon Fighting, ever. No, he's mostly saying dwarven defender isn't a good class. The best weapon to use would be a reach weapon (while under the effects of Enlarge Person), so you could still hit monsters with reach while in a defensive stance. I'll go roll a cleric or make a Pun-Pun, or whatever. No need to be so defensive. Although you might not like what they're saying, they're trying to help you. They don't have to post in your thread at all, you know? I agree that duel wielding is pretty subpar, without extra damage like sneak attack or something. Urgoshes are decent weapons for other purposes, though. Here is a build that mostly draws from the SRD, with a couple of levels of Deepwarden, the Double Hit feat from the Miniatures handbook, and Karmic Strike (from at least two sources). It has TWF, but mostly uses the Urgosh two-handed. It does get to make two attacks for every attack of opportunity, though, and can make two counter attacks on anyone who hits him. And all of his attacks hit two squares. It might interest you.
#14 jameswilliamogle Feb 25, 2009 12:32:48	I've been thinking alot about non-trip options in core-only games for Fighters. Here's what I came up with: Dwarf Rogue 8 / Fighter 12 (mix up the levels to keep your skills relatively high) bonus feats: TWF, iTWF, gTWF, WF, WSpec, GWFocus, GWSpec regular feats: PBS, Rapid Shot, Power Attack, Quickdraw, Imp Overrun, Precise Shot, Imp Precise Shot The idea in this build was to dual-wield Dwarven Throwers, but you could instead use +1 Throwing Returning Dwarven Urgoshes, too. The Rogue levels help with adding sneak attack damage to your 8 attacks per round. I imagine it like this: you try to get a full attack on your opponent, and he dies after 4 attacks... Now, you can throw your weapons to continue your full iterative attack bonus. Thus, you get your full attack more often (which I found to be a hassle with lots of mooks around). The weapon specialization tree is just to boost damage a little bit more. You're great w/ Urgoshes, but you are also very formidable with just a longbow, too, or using two weapons, or just one weapon (pick and choose the style that works best for you for the combat you're in - if the critter has a lot of DR, do the two-handed attack, if its a long-range combat, use a bow, or if its lots of relatively weaker enemies, dual-wield). All core, but if I could redo it, I'd drop Improved Overrun (which is awesome on a Dwarf, btw) for oversized TWF, to reduce the penalties further, and try to make room for Brutal Throw and Power Throw (but see below). (Of course, you can alter the heck out of it to get a really, really strong damage dealer, too, if you had access to Complete Champion and Complete Warrior, but I digress - I don't think you have access to those. Shocktrooper + Leap Attack + Two-handed Fighting + pounce ability pwns.)
#15 sam_lamander Feb 28, 2009 22:09:58	No need to be so defensive. Although you might not like what they're saying, they're trying to help you. They don't have to post in your thread at all, you know? I understand that and would like to apologize for my harsh reaction. Still, what I understand from the previous messages is that my concept for a character sucks so much there is no way to optimize it. Either I go with it, accepting that my character will be a fifth wheel at best, or possibly a burden for the rest of the party, at worst; or I alter it so that it is actually efficient, but then it won't be the character I wanted to play anymore. Either way, it doesn't seem like fun at all... Sorry for wasting your time.
#16 phaedrusxy Mar 01, 2009 12:57:55	Still, what I understand from the previous messages is that my concept for a character sucks so much there is no way to optimize it. Either I go with it, accepting that my character will be a fifth wheel at best, or possibly a burden for the rest of the party, at worst; or I alter it so that it is actually efficient, but then it won't be the character I wanted to play anymore. Did you look at the character in the link I posted? It has all of its main tricks by level 12, and is similiar in concept to what you're wanting to do. (It's a dwarven ranger that wields an urgosh, gets alot of attacks, and is a "tank). I didn't even bother picking feats past level 12 for it, as it had basically fulfilled what I wanted it to do by then.
#17 sam_lamander Mar 02, 2009 8:44:37	Yeah, and it looks rather nice, but I'll have to talk the GM into using those two feats (Double Hit & Karmic Strike) for which I couldn't find a complete description and the Deepwarden PrC. I'm really not familiar with Psionics though, but I guess it doesn't rely too much on power manifesting? Not sure about how the GM feels about them either, but they're core, so it should be okay. Other than that, I'm a little doubtful about being able to make off-hand attacks while wielding a weapon two-handed, even if it's a double weapon. The GM might object to that.
#18 phaedrusxy Mar 02, 2009 11:19:02	I don't think you have to make any off-hand attacks, do you? You could also wear some armor spikes, and make your "off-hand" attacks with those, but I realize that's not using the urgosh to its potential... For mostly complete feat descriptions, check www.crystalkeep.com. Make sure to check the 3.0 section, as I think the Mini's handbook might have been 3.0.
#19 sam_lamander Mar 02, 2009 12:18:21	Before you make an Attack of Opportunity, you may choose to attack with both weapons, taking the standard penalties for fighting with two weapons. If I read this correctly, in order to benefit form this feat, you definitely need to make off-hand attacks. Or did I overlook something in your build ?
#20 phaedrusxy Mar 02, 2009 12:23:03	If I read this correctly, in order to benefit form this feat, you definitely need to make off-hand attacks. Or did I overlook something in your build ? It had been a while since I'd looked at the feat. :D You don't have to make off-hand attacks during your turn. You just have to be capable of making them when you make your Attacks of Opportunity. Swapping from swinging the urgosh as a two-handed weapon to holding it so that you can use it as a duel weapon is a free action. So you make your attacks two-handed, then swap your grip at the end of your turn. Then afterwards, any attacks of opportunity that you make benefit from Double Hit.
#21 sam_lamander Mar 02, 2009 13:36:58	Somehow, I managed to completely forget that switching from two handed to dual wield is a free action.